Flawed analogy FTL. Gaming (which is a liesure activity) has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses...which, in general, is a true statement. Can you imagine a casual gamer (ie. person whos first gaming experience was WoW) trying to play EVE? This is different than realizing manned flight through a scientific phenomenon (Bernoulli's principle) for the better of the human race. A better analogy would be rock n roll used to be a niche genre full of talented individuals. But it has been dumbed down to appeal to the masses by studios pushing no talent, musicianless, lip synching hacks.
you use the term "dumbed down" rather recklessly imo. How is capitalizing on something dumbing it down? my first gaming experience was Vanguard but i guarantee i could play EVE. what the hell does that have to do with anything anyway?
first off, i messed up by saying that older games are crappy. I was hipocritical because i hate when people judge a game off graphics, so i apologize. Second, im 27 years old my first MMO was Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, so im relatively new to mmo's compared to you, apparently. The only reason the gaming industry is responding to us "spoiled brats" as you put it, is because all they care about is money. There are so many games to choose form, if you dont like one, you can go to another, so they are eager to please. When i first played vanguard, it was exactly 1 week after launch and i had a very shitty computer tht could barely run it . But, the combination of overwhelming bugs and an insufficient computer didnt even phase me because i didnt know any better. It was still extremely fun and it consumed my life until the newness wore off. Every mmo ive played since has seemed dull everything has been done, so your saying you miss the pioneering days. i think i see where your coming from your lucky to have been a part of it
All game development companies care about money. There is no such thing as a game development company that is a charity.
No developer has ever programmed a game for countless hours hoping to not make a dime.
I am most definately not into the idea of giving up. I admit I have a doom and gloom outlook right now, but that has to do with today. I would love PC games to make a triumphant return to there rightful place in awesomeness. One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games. I think the studios are making a mistake trying to compete with consoles on thier own turf.
Back in the day (early-mid 90's) PC didn't compete with Nintendo/Sega and that made for both sides doing what they do best.
By the way I'm only 25 and have been playing on PC since I was 5. Yes 5 I was babysat at my grandmothers and she was into PC's and I wanted to do it too. I built my first PC at 11. so I'm not over the hill by any means and I do find games today that I do enjoy.
Now one person mentioned that there are so many games its easy to just leave one behind in favor of another. Its this perpetual grass is greener syndrome that really seems to cause MMO's to fail these days. There is no sense of exploring past the first 1 or 2 things you don't like. You can just leave for the next thing and then when your out of options come to these forums and get mad about how your hypothetical MMO doesn't exist yet.
One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games.
the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased.
One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games.
the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased.
When consoles begin to come standard with a mouse and keyboard, thats' pretty much it. WE can already plug in a gamer pad to a PC.
The big difference is in the controls. Once everyone has access to a mouse and keyboard, there is no more difference between the two.
Right now the only two games in the MMO genre that i could stand are Eve and UO (freeshard).
My brother asked me the other day why I still played UO, I turned to him and asked name one thing other than lame instanced battlegrounds that he could do in WoW that I couldnt do in UO.
He said something like Dailies LOL! then I gave him the run down on what I could do in UO that wow didnt offer.
Lets just say I had him sitting in the chair next to me for about an hour.
It amazes me that people say todays mmos have evolved.
I'm with you 110%. As a matter of fact I think it applies to any hobby that starts out small but begins attracting a large audience. The original "cult" followers get left out as popularity increases. In the end your game genre has a huge audience but is only a shadowy reflection of what you remember it as.
Very true. i can think of several sports/hobbies where this is fairly obvious.
The only thing I'd add is that it's not entirely hopeless. The core following will always be there and every new mainstream generation that comes along will create at least a few more core followers. I guarantee that WOW has created a bunch of new, core MMO fans that will be looking for some thing more challenging and complex once WOW fades.
I have to disagree with the notion that these games are made for a wider audience. Perhaps it is a different audience, or a bigger audience, but not a wider one.
Today's typical MMO gamer cut his teeth on Counterstrike, Madden, and Unreal Tournament. To say today's typical gamer isn't hardcore is an extreme understatement: this is the most hardcore, competitive, and game-savvy demographic I have ever seen. They are the ones that brought us comms, clans, bots, ladders, and high-stakes attitude that you just never saw in the old MUDers. They play to win, they aren't afraid of using teamwork or technology to help them do it, and have no patience for things like ambiance or immersion.
You see, the MMO folks wanted this FPS and action/adventure demographic because it is huge and not afraid of investing tons of money into a computer game. However, it is not a very diverse demographic, as it is composed mostly of teenage and young adult 'outsider' males. However, what I believe built this genre, and what made the genre so interesting, is that it originally appealed to people who wouldn't typically play computer games: housewives, professionals, the elderly, and creative-types. They still do play Second Life, but many would like something a little more structured and free of RMT and outside influences like advertisers.
There has never been in my experience a more broad and diverse playerbase than the one I found in SWG when it opened in 2003. I met grandparents, ballet dancers, professors, wives with small children, and doctors there. These are people who wouldn't even bother with computer games at all, but played Galaxies because it was something that allowed them to be appreciated for what they were, not for their DPS or kill/loss ratios like the 'typical' online gamer.
And you know what? It was those non-traditional gamers that made SWG such a wonderful place back when it first launched. Because they weren't in it to 'win' or 'pwn all,' they were in it to experience something that could appreciate and reward what they were about.
We don't have those types in online games today. That's because the gaming impressarios like Smed and Blizzard wanted the hardcore Counterstrike crowd, probably because they were 1) a large, readily available demographic, 2) easier to please and 3) easier to extract money from. Rather than cultivate a large, diverse playerbase of non-traditional gamers, these folks wanted to turn Counterstrikers and Madden NFL junkies into MMOers.
And they've succeeded, much to the detriment of this once promising genre.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I've noticed lately how a lot of companies have adopted the WoW model so they could hopefully bring in large numbers as wow does. This has led to a lot of disappointing games with regurgitated crap. I think these companies have failed to realize that if people are leaving WoW for something else, it is most likely because they want something different. Thus a lot of the newer games aren't sustaining quality numbers.
I do see some hope though for the future because it seems some of the games in development are following a different formula and are more "niche". I'm also an old time player, played some UO, but basically eq in 1999 and on. My favorites are EQ and daoc. So it is not just first game experience either.
I also like the the MMOs I do see coming out are quite different so people hopefully find something they like. I'm not one of those that think everyone must play the game I am, heh.
I don't think we disagree much at all. My point is more of a personal notion that this genre and PC gaming in general is being marketed towards people that buy very specific types of games. This discourages developers from making some of the more creative games. I mean honestly how many WWII games do we need? How many really great ideas are being passed up for this slack jawed audience for thier money. Thats whats ruining the PC game genre all together.
I will put a very simple example to show your are wrong:
EQ: You can jump but it lowers your stamina until it is so low you can't jump anymore and if you had to fight a mob you couldn't until you recovered your breath again. Cool.
WOW: You can jump. All the time. Bunny jump. Sillyness.
Multiply this for hundreds of features we have lost over the time.
New generation? No. Simplification that leads to meaningless games.
Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd. Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like.
Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic. I disagree though. These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it. They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them.
Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy. I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player. They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do.
Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others. I think this is a mischaracterization. They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games. They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.). In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there. It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners.
I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros' who played everything else under the sun. The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now. Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't think buying gold or using bots is very savvy at all. Some savvy guy programmed a botting program and that guy is. I don't mind those hardcore guys so much. I do mind the grass is greener guys that force games to come out too soon or cause one to shut down when it very well could be a great game. Vanguard is a great game by many standards but it wont do very well, probobly, due to the fact that after that first taste people moved to something else and then something else till the sit here and talk about darfall all day.
When there was less to choose from people had to actually see things through in order to make a pretty well educated opinion. I've always existed along side of the hardcore audience. I don't mind them. I just let them do they're thing and I usually stick with a more communal group.
Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd. Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like. Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic. I disagree though. These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it. They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them. Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy. I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player. They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do. Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others. I think this is a mischaracterization. They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games. They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.). In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there. It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners. I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros' who played everything else under the sun. The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now. Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Someone basically repeated what I've been saying for more than a few years now.
One of the big reasons MMORPGs are not what they used to be is that the audience is not what it used to be, a few hundred thousand people from a very narrow slice of culture. (Read: NERDS) This was it at the beginning.
Now there are tens of millions of MMO gamers from all walks of life, and to appease diversity you need something elegant in it's simplicity. (READ: WoW)
End of story. End of golden era for all the nerds. Looking forward to the MMOFPS games that should be massively popular in the next several years.
I think the bottom line is that everything is cool when it is new. When I see folks rhapsodize about EQ or UO, its not because the games were that great, its that it was the persons first experience with an MMO.
The first time is always the best for most every enjoyable experience.
Not for me.
My first MMO was EQ1, and I'm having a lot more fun now with games like CoH/CoV, WAR and LOTRO than I ever did back then. Personally, and I know I'll get flamed to hell and back for saying it, I think MMO's are far superior now to the way they were back when EQ first launched. There's no way I could go back to EverQuest. I know. I tried, and wasn't impressed.
Those games aren't crappy by the way. The are the basis for the games your playing right now. You could name any new great game and I could tell you what games led directly to that game. They were creative and innovative and targeted towards an audience that new how to truly appreciate fresh new ideas.
I listen to modern rock/metal music. Most people know that this can be traced back all the way to jazz and then even further. I think jazz sucks ass. Do I appreciate people's creativity influencing what I like? Yes. Do I still think what did was crappy? Yes.
See my point? I think a lot of those older games suck (IMO - and I don't mean all older games, just some) even though they influenced what I have today. I'm glad they existed, but they suck.
And if you're (by you I mean a generalization of everyone reading this) displeased at how modern gaming is enjoyable for everyone (thus attracting little assholes that think they know everything and are better than everyone), play with your guild (or, quit your guild if it contains the aforementioned assholes, and find a more mature one).
Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd. Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like. Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic. I disagree though. These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it. They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them. Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy. I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player. They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do. Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others. I think this is a mischaracterization. They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games. They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.). In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there. It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners. I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros' who played everything else under the sun. The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now. Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Not really. I don't know of many housewives and seniors who play WoW (though I'm sure there's a few). It's simply too faced paced and aggressive for players who aren't driven gamers. In my experience, a lot of non-traditional gamers liked platforms such as Second Life and ealy SWG specifically because they were "slow paced." It isn't a matter of wanting easier challenges so non-gamers can be on the same par as gamers. It's a matter not partaking in a goal-driven environment at all.
What is there to do in WoW if you aren't doing quests or PvP? Nothing really. So what is there for a housewife who really doesn't care about quests or PvP to find in WoW? Nothing really.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
ahh yes the great old days of running your games in MS-DOS. 16bit, 2d graphics. Ahhh yes those were the days that you had to have those big floppy disk. The loud sounds the computer would make when ever you put a floppy disk into the drive. mmmmm.... the memories the memories. Hmm I still have jill of the jungle and commander keen the complete series. Tho I have to say commander keen 4 was the best. I might have to play some of those oldier games later.
I think it's an important point to make that even if us Nerd's or what back in the 80/90s etc thought of that as the 'golden age', we
1) Can't play those games anymore
2) Don't want to play those games anymore.
I simply don't have the time or the inclination to mess about with memory DOS or whatever, and I don't have to time to group for hours on end grinding.
I have a wife, a house and other responsibilities I want to log on with the minimum of fuss, and be able to play for half an hour if thats all I have, or a few hours if I have the time.
Of course they aren't aimed at us. They're aimed at the WoW kiddies. A much bigger market, and much easier to please, becuase they've never played a good game.
I've been thinking alot lately about what is really going on with this genre and why so many veteran MMO players are becoming dissapointed time and again. What happened to our worlds? Well, I have a theory. These games simply arent created for US anymore. They are made for a much bigger audience. Originally computer gamers were more hobbyists and alot of the time we had to tweak our systems just to play games. Anyone else remember creating a boot disk to play a really rad new game? Sadly we just arent the target audience anymore. We played PC games before MMO's and FPS. We played Sierra adventure games. We played Sid Miers games and Populous. We loved X-wing and Rise of the Triad. This list could go on... 7th Guest and 11th Hour. The reason Ultima Online was such a huge hit was that it had such a successful franchise behind it. We only knew it existed and might be good because of this. We are hobbyists and we watched everything on the horizon and thats how we even knew games would be comming out. Asherons Call is another example of this. The puplic had no real idea of these games at this point. The term MMO hadn't even been coined yet. It was a different era. The word noobie hadn't been bastardized to the word nub. You actually had to know something about a PC to play PC games. Civilization rocked our worlds. I miss these days as do alot of my fellow veteran PC gamers and I think our time is almost up as far as games marketed that we will truly enjoy. The originality dies with us and its gonna be a long dry spell until it comes back around again.
Please correct me if im wrong but your coming off very arrogant. You sound like you think your better than every other gamer because you played shitty versions of games we have now 10 years ago. Your mad because video games went from an exclusive "hobby" as you put it, to a worldwide entertainment business. Excuse my radical comparison but it would be like if wilbur and orville wright were pissed because we're flying fighter jets and exploiting flight to its fullest extent.
Please, i want your opinion on my opinion
Dude. You need to chill.
Check it out. You are coming of as arrogant claiming that we played "shittier" games than what's out now. UO/EQ/AC weren't fun because of graphics, they weren't fun because of "phat lewts", they weren't fun because of any of the flashy stuff in MMOs now. They were fun because they were challenging, required communication and teamwork and involved risk. What's the risk in most new MMOs? Where's the risk in WoW, WAR, AoC? On top of that, where's the community? Want to sell something? Just put it in the AH. Crafters used to have to actually try to sell their wares, and I made some friendships this way and it felt a lot more like a business.
I would go looking for a crafter to make an item for me and it would often take a bit of looking. Then, I would find someone, we would chat and haggle prices, etc. then strike a deal. Not now, now just AH point and click, no personal interaction needed.
If you wanted to get around, there were no flight paths, you had to actually talk to players and find someone to open a portal for you, sometimes at a cost. There was social interaction EVERYWHERE.
I've been thinking alot lately about what is really going on with this genre and why so many veteran MMO players are becoming dissapointed time and again. What happened to our worlds? Well, I have a theory. These games simply arent created for US anymore. They are made for a much bigger audience. Originally computer gamers were more hobbyists and alot of the time we had to tweak our systems just to play games. Anyone else remember creating a boot disk to play a really rad new game? Sadly we just arent the target audience anymore. We played PC games before MMO's and FPS. We played Sierra adventure games. We played Sid Miers games and Populous. We loved X-wing and Rise of the Triad. This list could go on... 7th Guest and 11th Hour. The reason Ultima Online was such a huge hit was that it had such a successful franchise behind it. We only knew it existed and might be good because of this. We are hobbyists and we watched everything on the horizon and thats how we even knew games would be comming out. Asherons Call is another example of this. The puplic had no real idea of these games at this point. The term MMO hadn't even been coined yet. It was a different era. The word noobie hadn't been bastardized to the word nub. You actually had to know something about a PC to play PC games. Civilization rocked our worlds. I miss these days as do alot of my fellow veteran PC gamers and I think our time is almost up as far as games marketed that we will truly enjoy. The originality dies with us and its gonna be a long dry spell until it comes back around again.
And with fact that more and more games are console only and more and more mmo's also gonne be made for consoles im affraid future dont look good for pc gamers, i will always be a pc gamer and stick to it i dont even have a console(only dreamcast but that dont count hehe its old and dead).
With damn DRM system i also refuse buy these games im stick to my old games:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Comments
you use the term "dumbed down" rather recklessly imo. How is capitalizing on something dumbing it down? my first gaming experience was Vanguard but i guarantee i could play EVE. what the hell does that have to do with anything anyway?
All game development companies care about money. There is no such thing as a game development company that is a charity.
No developer has ever programmed a game for countless hours hoping to not make a dime.
I am most definately not into the idea of giving up. I admit I have a doom and gloom outlook right now, but that has to do with today. I would love PC games to make a triumphant return to there rightful place in awesomeness. One hope I do have, and it seems to be working, is that consoles will slowly pull people out of the PC gaming market so we get less console-like games and move back towards PC games. I think the studios are making a mistake trying to compete with consoles on thier own turf.
Back in the day (early-mid 90's) PC didn't compete with Nintendo/Sega and that made for both sides doing what they do best.
By the way I'm only 25 and have been playing on PC since I was 5. Yes 5 I was babysat at my grandmothers and she was into PC's and I wanted to do it too. I built my first PC at 11. so I'm not over the hill by any means and I do find games today that I do enjoy.
Now one person mentioned that there are so many games its easy to just leave one behind in favor of another. Its this perpetual grass is greener syndrome that really seems to cause MMO's to fail these days. There is no sense of exploring past the first 1 or 2 things you don't like. You can just leave for the next thing and then when your out of options come to these forums and get mad about how your hypothetical MMO doesn't exist yet.
the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased.
the line between console games and pc games has been severely faded, nearly erased.
When consoles begin to come standard with a mouse and keyboard, thats' pretty much it. WE can already plug in a gamer pad to a PC.
The big difference is in the controls. Once everyone has access to a mouse and keyboard, there is no more difference between the two.
OP I agree with you.
Right now the only two games in the MMO genre that i could stand are Eve and UO (freeshard).
My brother asked me the other day why I still played UO, I turned to him and asked name one thing other than lame instanced battlegrounds that he could do in WoW that I couldnt do in UO.
He said something like Dailies LOL! then I gave him the run down on what I could do in UO that wow didnt offer.
Lets just say I had him sitting in the chair next to me for about an hour.
It amazes me that people say todays mmos have evolved.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Very true. i can think of several sports/hobbies where this is fairly obvious.
The only thing I'd add is that it's not entirely hopeless. The core following will always be there and every new mainstream generation that comes along will create at least a few more core followers. I guarantee that WOW has created a bunch of new, core MMO fans that will be looking for some thing more challenging and complex once WOW fades.
I have to disagree with the notion that these games are made for a wider audience. Perhaps it is a different audience, or a bigger audience, but not a wider one.
Today's typical MMO gamer cut his teeth on Counterstrike, Madden, and Unreal Tournament. To say today's typical gamer isn't hardcore is an extreme understatement: this is the most hardcore, competitive, and game-savvy demographic I have ever seen. They are the ones that brought us comms, clans, bots, ladders, and high-stakes attitude that you just never saw in the old MUDers. They play to win, they aren't afraid of using teamwork or technology to help them do it, and have no patience for things like ambiance or immersion.
You see, the MMO folks wanted this FPS and action/adventure demographic because it is huge and not afraid of investing tons of money into a computer game. However, it is not a very diverse demographic, as it is composed mostly of teenage and young adult 'outsider' males. However, what I believe built this genre, and what made the genre so interesting, is that it originally appealed to people who wouldn't typically play computer games: housewives, professionals, the elderly, and creative-types. They still do play Second Life, but many would like something a little more structured and free of RMT and outside influences like advertisers.
There has never been in my experience a more broad and diverse playerbase than the one I found in SWG when it opened in 2003. I met grandparents, ballet dancers, professors, wives with small children, and doctors there. These are people who wouldn't even bother with computer games at all, but played Galaxies because it was something that allowed them to be appreciated for what they were, not for their DPS or kill/loss ratios like the 'typical' online gamer.
And you know what? It was those non-traditional gamers that made SWG such a wonderful place back when it first launched. Because they weren't in it to 'win' or 'pwn all,' they were in it to experience something that could appreciate and reward what they were about.
We don't have those types in online games today. That's because the gaming impressarios like Smed and Blizzard wanted the hardcore Counterstrike crowd, probably because they were 1) a large, readily available demographic, 2) easier to please and 3) easier to extract money from. Rather than cultivate a large, diverse playerbase of non-traditional gamers, these folks wanted to turn Counterstrikers and Madden NFL junkies into MMOers.
And they've succeeded, much to the detriment of this once promising genre.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I've noticed lately how a lot of companies have adopted the WoW model so they could hopefully bring in large numbers as wow does. This has led to a lot of disappointing games with regurgitated crap. I think these companies have failed to realize that if people are leaving WoW for something else, it is most likely because they want something different. Thus a lot of the newer games aren't sustaining quality numbers.
I do see some hope though for the future because it seems some of the games in development are following a different formula and are more "niche". I'm also an old time player, played some UO, but basically eq in 1999 and on. My favorites are EQ and daoc. So it is not just first game experience either.
I also like the the MMOs I do see coming out are quite different so people hopefully find something they like. I'm not one of those that think everyone must play the game I am, heh.
I don't think we disagree much at all. My point is more of a personal notion that this genre and PC gaming in general is being marketed towards people that buy very specific types of games. This discourages developers from making some of the more creative games. I mean honestly how many WWII games do we need? How many really great ideas are being passed up for this slack jawed audience for thier money. Thats whats ruining the PC game genre all together.
I will put a very simple example to show your are wrong:
EQ: You can jump but it lowers your stamina until it is so low you can't jump anymore and if you had to fight a mob you couldn't until you recovered your breath again. Cool.
WOW: You can jump. All the time. Bunny jump. Sillyness.
Multiply this for hundreds of features we have lost over the time.
New generation? No. Simplification that leads to meaningless games.
how exactly did this prove me wrong?
Rumor, I think we agree that today's MMO gamer and today's MMO game is attracting a different type of crowd. Where I think we disagree is what the nature of this new demographic looks like.
Many have argued that these are 'casual' players, and cite things from publishers saying that they want to appeal to a casual demographic. I disagree though. These are the hardest of the hardcore, from games that only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore computer junkies, and I think the publishers know it. They just don't want to use the term 'hardcore' to describe them.
Many have argued that these folks are not computer savvy. I think they are extremely computer savvy, and use every technological advantage they can to be better than the next player. They'll program bots, buy gold from resellers, and use comms; things that non-traditional gamers don't do.
Many have argued that these people are soloers and don't care about working with others. I think this is a mischaracterization. They care about their clans, and work closely with their clans in not only one game, but across many games. They are team players, because they come from games that stress teamwork over self-reliance (Counterstrike, RTS, etc.). In fact, they typically don't know how to play without their clans very well.They are such team players, that they'll share account info so other players can access their characters to play when they are not there. It is true that they are typically antisocial to those outside their clan, but they are far from loners.
I suspect he people who are getting shafted in this new MMO scene aren't the 'old pros' who played everything else under the sun. The people who are getting shafted are the people who have little reason to enjoy traditional computer games, and even less of a reason now. Those are the folks that made the old time games interesting.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
I don't think buying gold or using bots is very savvy at all. Some savvy guy programmed a botting program and that guy is. I don't mind those hardcore guys so much. I do mind the grass is greener guys that force games to come out too soon or cause one to shut down when it very well could be a great game. Vanguard is a great game by many standards but it wont do very well, probobly, due to the fact that after that first taste people moved to something else and then something else till the sit here and talk about darfall all day.
When there was less to choose from people had to actually see things through in order to make a pretty well educated opinion. I've always existed along side of the hardcore audience. I don't mind them. I just let them do they're thing and I usually stick with a more communal group.
Hmm you meant the death of a generation of developers? then you are right. Thought you mean the death of a generation of players.
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Someone basically repeated what I've been saying for more than a few years now.
One of the big reasons MMORPGs are not what they used to be is that the audience is not what it used to be, a few hundred thousand people from a very narrow slice of culture. (Read: NERDS) This was it at the beginning.
Now there are tens of millions of MMO gamers from all walks of life, and to appease diversity you need something elegant in it's simplicity. (READ: WoW)
End of story. End of golden era for all the nerds. Looking forward to the MMOFPS games that should be massively popular in the next several years.
Not for me.
My first MMO was EQ1, and I'm having a lot more fun now with games like CoH/CoV, WAR and LOTRO than I ever did back then. Personally, and I know I'll get flamed to hell and back for saying it, I think MMO's are far superior now to the way they were back when EQ first launched. There's no way I could go back to EverQuest. I know. I tried, and wasn't impressed.
I listen to modern rock/metal music. Most people know that this can be traced back all the way to jazz and then even further. I think jazz sucks ass. Do I appreciate people's creativity influencing what I like? Yes. Do I still think what did was crappy? Yes.
See my point? I think a lot of those older games suck (IMO - and I don't mean all older games, just some) even though they influenced what I have today. I'm glad they existed, but they suck.
And if you're (by you I mean a generalization of everyone reading this) displeased at how modern gaming is enjoyable for everyone (thus attracting little assholes that think they know everything and are better than everyone), play with your guild (or, quit your guild if it contains the aforementioned assholes, and find a more mature one).
Good points, but don't you think they've brought in a good amount of BOTH of those groups? The harcore competitive group (from FPS and RTS) that wants a no frills, trimmed down MMO that gets straight to the competition and the ultra casual group (with almost no gaming back ground) that doesn't want anything to challenge or slow down their entertainment.
Not really. I don't know of many housewives and seniors who play WoW (though I'm sure there's a few). It's simply too faced paced and aggressive for players who aren't driven gamers. In my experience, a lot of non-traditional gamers liked platforms such as Second Life and ealy SWG specifically because they were "slow paced." It isn't a matter of wanting easier challenges so non-gamers can be on the same par as gamers. It's a matter not partaking in a goal-driven environment at all.
What is there to do in WoW if you aren't doing quests or PvP? Nothing really. So what is there for a housewife who really doesn't care about quests or PvP to find in WoW? Nothing really.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
ahh yes the great old days of running your games in MS-DOS. 16bit, 2d graphics. Ahhh yes those were the days that you had to have those big floppy disk. The loud sounds the computer would make when ever you put a floppy disk into the drive. mmmmm.... the memories the memories. Hmm I still have jill of the jungle and commander keen the complete series. Tho I have to say commander keen 4 was the best. I might have to play some of those oldier games later.
I give full support to the OP.
I think it's an important point to make that even if us Nerd's or what back in the 80/90s etc thought of that as the 'golden age', we
1) Can't play those games anymore
2) Don't want to play those games anymore.
I simply don't have the time or the inclination to mess about with memory DOS or whatever, and I don't have to time to group for hours on end grinding.
I have a wife, a house and other responsibilities I want to log on with the minimum of fuss, and be able to play for half an hour if thats all I have, or a few hours if I have the time.
Of course they aren't aimed at us. They're aimed at the WoW kiddies. A much bigger market, and much easier to please, becuase they've never played a good game.
Darkfall Travelogues!
Please correct me if im wrong but your coming off very arrogant. You sound like you think your better than every other gamer because you played shitty versions of games we have now 10 years ago. Your mad because video games went from an exclusive "hobby" as you put it, to a worldwide entertainment business. Excuse my radical comparison but it would be like if wilbur and orville wright were pissed because we're flying fighter jets and exploiting flight to its fullest extent.
Please, i want your opinion on my opinion
Dude. You need to chill.
Check it out. You are coming of as arrogant claiming that we played "shittier" games than what's out now. UO/EQ/AC weren't fun because of graphics, they weren't fun because of "phat lewts", they weren't fun because of any of the flashy stuff in MMOs now. They were fun because they were challenging, required communication and teamwork and involved risk. What's the risk in most new MMOs? Where's the risk in WoW, WAR, AoC? On top of that, where's the community? Want to sell something? Just put it in the AH. Crafters used to have to actually try to sell their wares, and I made some friendships this way and it felt a lot more like a business.
I would go looking for a crafter to make an item for me and it would often take a bit of looking. Then, I would find someone, we would chat and haggle prices, etc. then strike a deal. Not now, now just AH point and click, no personal interaction needed.
If you wanted to get around, there were no flight paths, you had to actually talk to players and find someone to open a portal for you, sometimes at a cost. There was social interaction EVERYWHERE.
Now everything is solo-able and lonely.
And with fact that more and more games are console only and more and more mmo's also gonne be made for consoles im affraid future dont look good for pc gamers, i will always be a pc gamer and stick to it i dont even have a console(only dreamcast but that dont count hehe its old and dead).
With damn DRM system i also refuse buy these games im stick to my old games:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.