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Dark Fall Class/Level Based
darkblight
Member UncommonPosts: 55
in Darkfall
if you put a cap on the max number of skill points it is just another road to classes.
say it is like UO, where you could have 7 skills out of 100.
in uo magic did alot.. healing, damage, utility.. cc .. etc..
if they have "healing magic"
and "damage magic"
etc etc... you will end up with "healers" "nukers" "mele dps" "ranged mele dps" etc....
same old borning imbalanced classes.
UO only had balance because everyone was a swords mage, or archer mage if you go back in time a little more.
make it so people can max out every skill, then we have balance.
classes can never be balanced. it is impossible.
Comments
Neither can skills. You still end up with cookie cutter 'classes'. They just have a different name like 'swords mage' or 'archer mage'.
I havent read about a cap. Where are you getting this information from?
Well, you expected to be able to max every single skill on one character?
To have to choose between some skills isnt really classes and levels as long as you can combo any way you want.
The alternative is that no one ever will make an alt, turning the starting areas to a empty wasteland after everyone leveled past them.
You have to cap skill or it just gets stupid. You should not be a full plate wearing 2H sword swinging character that is able to throw fireballs and do full heals. That is a stupid concept invented by those who want everything but are willing to give up nothing.
I have to believe that there is a skill cap and that you will actually have to choose which skills you want to take. If they do allow you to be a full plate wearing, 2H sword using character that wants to throw fireballs then there should be some penalties, like, Your using a fireball while encased in metal, the metal gets hot from said fireball and you take burn damage, OR even better, You throw a lightning bolt and since metal is conductive you take shock damage. At least then it would make sense.
Skills and Classes are the same thing anyway. You can call it skill based if you want but if you make a character that wears full plate, uses a big sword and has some healing ability you have made a Paladin. You dont have to call it that if you dont want to but that is what it is. Most people are just going to build the "Class" that they want by learning the skills that one would associate with that "Class".
What is wrong with making a Class based game that you actually have to pick which skills you want and raise them by actually using that skill?
Oh ya, they already made that game, it was EQ.
I'm pretty sure theres a few dev quotes stating that you could theoretically max all skills despite the skill decay but it would take 5-10 years.
This basic FAQ outlines most of the thoughts behind the skill system in DF. Dunno if it'll create classes in the long run
http://hem.bredband.net/mongobash/DF-FAQ/skillsfaq.htm
as far was diversity... I dunno, what does being able to cast every spell, use every weapon and heal in every way possible net you in the end? I'm not gonna carry every weapon and spell regeant around just in case. how the hell would I even bind all those spells and skills to keys and remember where they all are? What do I become? the biggest target in the game? my rank 100 fireball will be just like that other guys and his could still kill me. and then I get to lose all my weapons and regeants and armors... run to a bank and re equip...
Again it's like EVE, theres a shit ton of skills, you can learn them all given the time... but they just diversify your utility after a certain point. Unless you've got enough guildies to get you into a titan I guess... but even those can be brought down.
I really hate the word balanced in MMOs. A warrior should not be as good at crfting as a Crafter, and a Crafter should not be as good as fighting as a Warrior. Thats as close to balance you can come.
But lets look at Darkfalls skill system. The skills you use will increase. Thats it. Simple as that!
And then we add real time combat with manual aiming. Suddenly we have countermeasures agenst everything. The question is what you wanna be good at. Because there will always be a way to beat everything.
I will master the mounted combat. But i would never be so stupid and not see the limatations. Other players will master the ways of fighting cavalry.
And thats the way it is.
I was under the (incorrect?) impression that you wouldn't be able to play Alts?
Just one single character per account?
Currently playing: Vanguard: SOH
you're saying you would prefer every charactrer in the game to be the same?
Everyone has maxed skills in everything, so they are all identical?
Sort of like SWG, and everyone is a Jedi?
Well, that would certainly be balanced. Kinda boring IMO, but very balanced.
But if you can just use to increase, then you just skill grind for a good template.
Let's say you want the proverbial tank mage. You grind on a lightening spell, sword use, and armor wearing.
You take your sword and whack on anything ane everything all day till it maxes. Then you shoot lightening spells at everything that moves till it maxes.
Then you heal, heal, heal. Your friend down a hit point? Heal! If you can heal mobs, heal them, it raises your skill.
We could set up a training camp. I'll whack a mob with my sword, you heal it, I'll shoot a lightening bolt at it, then I'll heal it, you whack it with a sword, rinse repeat till we max skills. Or if we can't attack mobs, we just get a friend to log on and use him as the target. Whack him, heal him, whack him, heal him, till we max out.
Ta da! Tank mage. I can wear armor, I can use a sword, shoot a lightening bolt, and heal myself. Just grind those skills every day to keep them maxed. What more do you need?
I'm pretty sure I've seen somewhere on the Darkfall forum that there will be Skill decay.
While what you are saying is correct (imho) and I agree, having skills instead of classes has it's benefits. It will let you "build" and "rebuild" your character easier. You wont have to reroll and lvl the toon to cap lvl to have a helaer, and then repeat all that to have a tank, and the repeat all that to have a caster, etc.
You will be able to let one skill go down (if the game has similar mechanism as UO) while you just use what ever you want to use now. If you focused on healing spells and suddenly you want to start hitting people with your sword, you will be able to do it without having to reroll and all what it has associated.
It's truth, imo, that there will be "skill templates" which will be popular and so many people will be "similar" but you will have the chance to try your own way.
I tried to express this opionions of my in other threads in the past. There is some cult to the sandbox that makes some (few, Ithink) people to elieve a sandbox fix all the "bad things of MMOs".
Example, some people think there will be no grind. the grinding doesnt have to do much with a themepark or a sandbox MMO. It's releated in the leveling of exp for levels or the leveling of skills (which in the end it's the same)... it's the same to kill 1000 mobs for level up or kill 1000 mobs to level up your skills. Or to hit 1000 trees to level up your lumberjack skills.
Imo, there should be always be a cap for skills. The cap could be hard (just a max lvl for the skill) or a soft one (making harder to lvl the skill and diminishing returns from gaining the next level).
About the balance... I reached the conclution long ago that it's impossible to reach it. It's somethign every MMO should try to reach but it will never reach. The sandox has an adventage oveer themeparks in this department, altough. In a class based MMO, if you chose an "underpowered" class, you should reroll a new one (unless you live with the fact that you are underpowered). In a skll based system, you just adapt your toon. And a skill based system give much mroe flexibility, you can be a healer that cast too or even that is some kind of assassin. Or having trying to have it all... of course, you will always have cap trade off so you can't really be the uber healer/caster/tank/etc. As the game mechanism "explorers" are always few in numbers, most people will just ask others what skills they should level. This promotes the templates. But you will always be able to just explore skills.
I am not sure if I like the idea you proposed to let everyone cap all the skills.
Finally, I will like to add that I always felt that in a themepark MMO I have to adjust my playstyle to the class (and I have to look for the classes that I like most -the classes that actually are closest my playstyle). Meantime, in a sandox (like UO is) I can make the toon to adjust to my playstyle. I know this may not sound important to many but for me... it's really important.
This doesn't mean that sandbox is better or worst that a themepark MMO. Imo, they are two different things. People can enjoy one type or the other or both.
In the end, we will have to wait and see how the DFO mechanisms works.
I agree there will be archtypes and unavoidable popular builds. The appeal, to me anyway, is that I can do whatever I want with my character.
If I want to start healing, I can, if I want to nuke, I can, my same char can match my playstyle for the mood I'm in that day and I can toy with my own "classes". If I want a pet based, ranged fighter healer, I can. If I want a heavy armor wearing warrior with nukes I can. I love the freedom.
Wow so you can only have 7 spells at a time like Guild Wars?
dag
Darkfall is the best game ever. it is not a level based game. There are NO levels. Bunch of silly heads.
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I was under the (incorrect?) impression that you wouldn't be able to play Alts?
Just one single character per account?
As far as I know they are still sticking to the 1 character per server. With a game like DarkFall it's really the only way they can do it.
From what I read on the official website, that's not exactly the way it works.
You can't just start doing any skill in the game if you feel like it. FIRST you have to BUY that skill.
You get some starter skills, but to get new skills you buy them. For example, you decide you want to start using a lightning bolt skill. You can't just starty shooting lightning bolts. First you have to buy that skill.
For a PvP game the MOST important implementation is the balance of the PvP. With this in mind, I agree with the OP.
It is clear that the OP understands that the direct effect of a system with unlimited skill points, given enough time, will be that everyone will have the same powers, that is, all the powers/skills. Balance by this scheme would be termed as equality. It is in fact the only "balance" that can exist.
Certainly, some "uniqueness" will be lost. But how unique are developer created skills? True "uniqueness" comes from the player, not the class or the skills. In the Op's system, a strategic player, that is, a player who uses all the skills at his disposal to win, is unique.
In the end, there is very little lost from allowing people to max all of their skills, but there is a tremendous amount to be gained (balance, character progression, no need for alts, strategic real-time play, reputation).
Granted this will make the game balanced for PVP because everyone can be exactly the same but man that is boring.
If that is all we want then why dont we just have a game where we all start in a loin cloth and with the same sword and shield and we just try to kill each other. Completely even field and player skill is all that will matter.
You make it sound like heaven, no more questing hurray!
One point the OP forgets is skill will degrade if not used unless your some kind of bot to keep trained up no one will be able to maintain 100 skill points in every skill. I believe they plan on launching with 300 plus. Its nature for people to favor one play style over another over time once the skill sampling has worn off so with in a few months I doubt everyone will be that much alike.
Granted this will make the game balanced for PVP because everyone can be exactly the same but man that is boring.
If that is all we want then why dont we just have a game where we all start in a loin cloth and with the same sword and shield and we just try to kill each other. Completely even field and player skill is all that will matter.
I disagree that this implementation would lead to boredom. The closest example to the scenario given by the OP is the early days of UO, when nearly every PvPer was a "tankmage." And yet, the breadth and depth of strategy was wide both in solo and in group play. And furthermore, this was, arguably, the most desire time period to play in MMO history. People still lament the loss of the "dreadlord" era.
I also disagree that equality as a mode of balance lacks complexity. Chess is a great example of a simple game, with 32 pieces and 64 squares, that has nearly infinite strategies. And yet, each player has almost the exact capabilities (the one exception is that white goes first, which does not translate well to an MMO). Chess should be the model of PvP balance, not rock-paper-scissors. A developer could add more than a loincloth and sticks (the pawn so to speak) to add complexity (ie queens, knights, bishops etc) and still maintain the balance that is necessary for a PvP-based MMO.
Granted this will make the game balanced for PVP because everyone can be exactly the same but man that is boring.
If that is all we want then why dont we just have a game where we all start in a loin cloth and with the same sword and shield and we just try to kill each other. Completely even field and player skill is all that will matter.
I disagree that this implementation would lead to boredom. The closest example to the scenario given by the OP is the early days of UO, when nearly every PvPer was a "tankmage." And yet, the breadth and depth of strategy was wide both in solo and in group play. And furthermore, this was, arguably, the most desire time period to play in MMO history. People still lament the loss of the "dreadlord" era.
I also disagree that equality as a mode of balance lacks complexity. Chess is a great example of a simple game, with 32 pieces and 64 squares, that has nearly infinite strategies. And yet, each player has almost the exact capabilities (the one exception is that white goes first, which does not translate well to an MMO). Chess should be the model of PvP balance, not rock-paper-scissors. A developer could add more than a loincloth and sticks (the pawn so to speak) to add complexity (ie queens, knights, bishops etc) and still maintain the balance that is necessary for a PvP-based MMO.
I think mostly gankers lament the loss of the dreadlord era.
Once Trammel was implemented, everyone could have stayed on the FFA server, and still played the same game, but they didn't, and instead left to the new server with different rules. Why did they do that, if the FFA play was do great?
It was a unique time in gaming history, because if you wanted to play an online rpg, you put up with the ganking, or you didn't play. That's why gankers loved it so much.
ONce more games released, that was the end of that, and it's never coming back.
One point the OP forgets is skill will degrade if not used unless your some kind of bot to keep trained up no one will be able to maintain 100 skill points in every skill. I believe they plan on launching with 300 plus. Its nature for people to favor one play style over another over time once the skill sampling has worn off so with in a few months I doubt everyone will be that much alike.
This leads to "classes" all over again. One guy will favor the play style of healing, another guy DPSing, another guy tanking. Sound familiar?
That is, unless there are 7 skills which are way better than all the rest. That would be the alpha class (or the Tankmage of UO). That is an acceptable method of balance.
There was no FFA server after Trammel. All servers had Trammel, that is, an entire mirror of world that was not FFA. And certainly pre-Trammel was fun for gankers. But that is too simplistic. It was fun for all PvPers of which only a subset consists of "gankers."
You are right, though. Pre-Trammel UO was unique. It has been the closest MMORPG to balanced PvP. And despite your memories of being ganked, it also fostered the most strategic PvP to date as well.
There was no FFA server after Trammel. All servers had Trammel, that is, an entire mirror of world that was not FFA. And certainly pre-Trammel was fun for gankers. But that is too simplistic. It was fun for all PvPers of which only a subset consists of "gankers."
You are right, though. Pre-Trammel UO was unique. It has been the closest MMORPG to balanced PvP. And despite your memories of being ganked, it also fostered the most strategic PvP to date as well.
The point is, once players had a choice, to remain in an FFA world, or to go elsewhere, they went elsewhere.
The reason pre-Trammel is so fondly remembered is the unique situation of having players in an FFA game, that didn't really want FFA game play. This created a unique dynamic, that is impossible to recreate. Players thought the online gameworld was so cool, since it was new, they were willing to put up wiht FFA, and try to come up with solutions to make it work. This created a real sense of community, which is what people miss.
It will never happen again. The only people from now on that will be in an FFA game, is people that like FFA game play. If you don't, off to WoW, LotRo, or a million other online gmes.
Every FFA game, will be like post Trammel in UO. The only difference is, instead of a mirror world for players to flee to, there are other games to flee to, if you're not a big fan of FFA game play.
The difference is, pre-Trammel, you have players in the world that are not interested in FFA PvP, they just wanted to do PvE, but if PvP is thrust upon them, they have to deal with it. Now, everyone in the FFA game will be interested in FFA, or else they woulnd't be there. They'd be in a different game.