Let me get this straight, You wont buy this game because the people who manage this game also manage another game that charges you money to buy something in that game?
what makes you think SOE wont introduce this to vanguard?
look... if they added the station cash for fancy stuff that doesnt have a practical use then i dont see a problem. just look at Anarchy Online, has a cash shop to buy some hoverboards or vehicles (and theres a whole lot of vehicles available besides the cash shop ones) and a lot of customes. it doesnt interfere with peoples skills or xp rate unlike the station shop from SOE which does offer xp boosters. its unfair, its an item mall on top of a p2p game. its sad and i sincerely hope no other company follows this example
MMOs currently playing: - About to play: Lord of the Rings Online Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
I saw some posts on this site that they found in WoW some buttons (graphics?) for an ingame itemshop. Seems that microtransitions are the FotM. I have very bad experience with f2p games and cash shops. If its going in this direction Im going to cancel. Time will tell.
It was pictures from WoW and Ragnarok Online (i think). Please read up on the linked and posted material. It isn't cash shops in the traditional sense, nor item malls in the traditional sense. It is all superflous gear.
Doubtful it would come to VG, since it is not very popular at the moment; to do this would require dev. time and money and I doubt they would want to pour that into VG. You never know though.
I resubbed to VG last night. Its the only game on the market that I find really fun at the moment. EQ got a cash shop, I don't care. Even if VG gets a cash shop I still don't care. I wont buy anything. If other people feel the need to pay extra money for in game items, thats up to them and it wont affect me at all. I just want to play a fun game. VG is a great game with really good classes and features.
I really don't see the whole panic about this unless you are one of the people that cannot resist spending your money on items.
I will be on VG and totally recomend anyone who likes great PvE to go ahead and get this game. No matter what game you get you are funding a company that may or may not make decisions you like, and really thats up to them to do. I could care less if someone gets +50% exp for 2 hours and I don't. It doesn't bother me the least bit. I'm still going to play it just like I play any other MMO.
I think that the charges against SoE are valid and relevant, and also a huge reason why I have recently been disuading from trying this game. I was a huge fan of vanguard while it was in development as a classic EQ addict but narrowly avoided purchase once i got into beta and observed an incomplete game dangerously close to release. Seeing as almost all the games out now suck, i was looking back at my favorite SoE games, or possibly this one.
I understand that you are defending Vanguard because they havn't done anything to it, but the problem is enormous in the EQ community. They took a poll asking people if they wanted a cash shop. The reply was a bellowed no. They made a few cash shop servers, and promised on multiple occasions (there are the humiliating quotes to prove it all over those forums) that they would NEVER introduce any sort of cash shop for the other servers.
Heres where it gets better. In their new expansion, SoE sneaks in a cash shop without ever announcing it, scamming many people into buying the expansion they don't want anymore, and locking people with long term subscriptions into a situation they were sworn would never occur. The same man who has the final say on Vanguard is the one who made these decisions.
The Everquest II manager put a forum post up asking people what their opinions were on the matter, and received 20 full pages of angry posters who were disgusted, devestated, swearing to cancel.
You dismissed this as irrelevant entirely to these forums because you enjoy Vanguard, and i'm not telling you to cancel, but forums are a good location to organize boycotts. The community has made clear they are not going to let SoE swindle them, and will do everything in their power to alert others. You think these item shops are harmless but the real situation is that they are unwanted, they were told they would not happen, and they have more game play influence than you portray. Not to mention, what is to keep them from expanding these stores? I hope SoE is made an example of, and that their wallet starts hurting till they are forced to undo their item shop, and then on top of that do something to re-establish their reputation with their player base. You think Vanguard is immune? Thats fine. You don't think these cautionary truths are welcome on this forum? You are mistaken.
I love uninformed posting. Telling people not to buy because you can't understand what is going on.
LoL, let's hear your spin on it. Tell us how to interpret these statements made prior to the introduction of "Stationcash":
"We have no plans what so ever to do actual sales of in game items, and I'm personally very opposed to the idea for EverQuest. I think microtransations can be a valid business model if planned from the ground up for a game, but it would be very very bad for EQ."
and
I've been a regular lurker on this site for a while but I wanted to step in here and dispel something that's just plain not true - I don't have my name highlighted here, but anyone that doubts it's me can email me at jsmedley@soe.sony.com and I'll happily reply.Lies.
We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement.
In any event, I wanted to stop in and at least set the record straight - you aren't going to be seeing RMT allowed on the non-exchange enabled servers.
John Smedley"
So, am I understanding this right? They aren't doing the micro-transactions on any servers other than the exchange servers, like Bazaar? w00t!! I hope I'm understanding this right....because I can hang with that! I wouldn't ever likely be inclined to make characters on any of the exchange servers, so....frankly.....I don't care, if that's the case.
just like to point out that Vanguard is pretty much 100% PvE and that no one honestly gives a toss what gear you have as it does not affect them in the slightest.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I resubbed to VG last night. Its the only game on the market that I find really fun at the moment. EQ got a cash shop, I don't care. Even if VG gets a cash shop I still don't care. I wont buy anything. If other people feel the need to pay extra money for in game items, thats up to them and it wont affect me at all. I just want to play a fun game. VG is a great game with really good classes and features. I really don't see the whole panic about this unless you are one of the people that cannot resist spending your money on items. I will be on VG and totally recomend anyone who likes great PvE to go ahead and get this game. No matter what game you get you are funding a company that may or may not make decisions you like, and really thats up to them to do. I could care less if someone gets +50% exp for 2 hours and I don't. It doesn't bother me the least bit. I'm still going to play it just like I play any other MMO.
Well said, I couldn't have put it any better. I just fail to see why other's ability to buy items effect anything that I do in game.
It should be pointed out that as a long time EQ subscriber, you get the effect of those potions for free periodically (once a day? I forget).
If you have two options to power level, which is better. Paying SOE to get double exp or paying some illegal internet company money to power level you? I think they're both distasteful, but the first is less so.
So none of you care that the company flat out lied to the customers and scammed people who specifically would not pay for the expansion if it had an item shop? They concealed that they were putting in an item shop to get the last bit of cash they could. This is not just about double experience potions, especially considering how they havnt even done this in Vanguard and htis is a Vanguard forum. This is a description of the company who run's Vanguard's ethics. So you can say well they only scammed some of their customers, I would have been chill with being not as good as other players who were willing to cough up more cash although i was promised I would never have to pay more than my subscrition fee. It's ridiculous! Im sure Vanguard is swell, and I wouldn't reccomend you cancel it because its still fine. But I would advise anyone thinking about starting this game to keep in mind what SoE thinks about its customers.
I will never understand why people protest a system that will never hinder or harm them in any way.
Everquest is NOT a PvP game. It's entirely PvE.
If 2 players in the game have extra items and faster XP, it doesnt hurt your gameplay at all.
Complaining that others have an advantage over you because they are more invested in the game, when it's a 0% PvP and 100% PvE game...WTF?
There is no "It's the principle of the thing." either. It's obvious jealousy, immaturity, and envy. Anyone who complains or gets upset over someone else (whom they will most likely never encounter, compete with, or oppose) having a fair advantage- has some personal issues they need to deal with.
If it really bothers you THAT much- then invest just as much into the game as they do. Then you can "compete" better with others in a non-competitive, no-pvp, compeltely PvE CoOp video game.........
I will never understand why people protest a system that will never hinder or harm them in any way. Everquest is NOT a PvP game. It's entirely PvE. If 2 players in the game have extra items and faster XP, it doesnt hurt your gameplay at all. Complaining that others have an advantage over you because they are more invested in the game, when it's a 0% PvP and 100% PvE game...WTF? There is no "It's the principle of the thing." either. It's obvious jealousy, immaturity, and envy. Anyone who complains or gets upset over someone else (whom they will most likely never encounter, compete with, or oppose) having a fair advantage- has some personal issues they need to deal with. If it really bothers you THAT much- then invest just as much into the game as they do. Then you can "compete" better with others in a non-competitive, no-pvp, compeltely PvE CoOp video game.........
Im not a fan of cash shops but i have to agree with what ArchAngel says here. In a PVE game it really doesnt matter. There is no advantage gained. For a PVP game this would be a disaster but i dont seeing it having an affect on a PVE game at all. Especially if it is pretty much fluff items and some exp boosts. Exp boosts really shouldnt matter because MMOs arent supposed to be a race.
Its funny because Everquest 2, the one who currently has the cash shop is a PVP game. There is lots of PVP. In fact there are two oposing factions which are constantly engaging in pvp with their own sets of classes and races and cities which cannot communicate with each other. VERY PVP.
Now that we've established that your excuse is not valid, this really is not about other playres, this is about a customer to provider relationship. SoE took the polls. The people said no. They set up cash shop servers anyway. They promised in multiple announcements that they would "Never" put a cash shop into the game. They did not say we won't put an epic gear cash shop so vanity items are ok. they said no cash shop ever. After these polls, and after all of the players interested in cash shops trasnfered to the cash shop servers, they put in a cash shop without announcing after people had purcahsed the expansion. This is a scam. Maybe you woudl be ok with it. THese people were not. They were promised that would not happen to them. It matters to them. They are outraged. This is not ok for a company to do. It is not only about the money they will gain off of those foolish enough to use it, and not only about the players who will be paying 15 dollars a month and not getting the full content until they treat the game like some piece of shit f2p, it is about the broken promise and the players who they duped knowing very well that they did not want the cash shop. If they wanted the cash shop, they woudl have taken the free transfer to the cash shop servers. Even if it were only vanity items. Why can' t they just give everyone cool looking gear. That is good customer service vs bad customer service. Yes it does affect the game play. And more importantly, yes it shows alot about SoEs ethics. They don't care if they can make a buck. If it were a pve game i would feel the same way. If i want to pay to feel special ill play some free game with graphics just as good or better, and with a publisher who takes care of its customers.
Its funny because Everquest 2, the one who currently has the cash shop is a PVP game. There is lots of PVP. In fact there are two oposing factions which are constantly engaging in pvp with their own sets of classes and races and cities which cannot communicate with each other. VERY PVP. Now that we've established that your excuse is not valid, this really is not about other playres, this is about a customer to provider relationship. SoE took the polls. The people said no. They set up cash shop servers anyway. They promised in multiple announcements that they would "Never" put a cash shop into the game. They did not say we won't put an epic gear cash shop so vanity items are ok. they said no cash shop ever. After these polls, and after all of the players interested in cash shops trasnfered to the cash shop servers, they put in a cash shop without announcing after people had purcahsed the expansion. This is a scam. Maybe you woudl be ok with it. THese people were not. They were promised that would not happen to them. It matters to them. They are outraged. This is not ok for a company to do. It is not only about the money they will gain off of those foolish enough to use it, and not only about the players who will be paying 15 dollars a month and not getting the full content until they treat the game like some piece of shit f2p, it is about the broken promise and the players who they duped knowing very well that they did not want the cash shop. If they wanted the cash shop, they woudl have taken the free transfer to the cash shop servers. Even if it were only vanity items. Why can' t they just give everyone cool looking gear. That is good customer service vs bad customer service. Yes it does affect the game play. And more importantly, yes it shows alot about SoEs ethics. They don't care if they can make a buck. If it were a pve game i would feel the same way. If i want to pay to feel special ill play some free game with graphics just as good or better, and with a publisher who takes care of its customers.
You are 100% right, EQ2 does have PVP so it does matter somewhat. But it only matters if beneficial items are being sold. Which may be happening, i dont know, no one has shown that it is happening yet. The only thing that has been shown that is beneficial is exp potions and they in themselves dont affect a PVP fight.
SOE took a poll but did they ever say that whatever the player base wants is what we will do? People play the game but SOE ownes the game, so they can do with it what they want. And you the consumer have the right not to pay for their service. This should not be a big surprise to anyone, it happened in EQ and SWG long before it happened in EQ2.
True sneaking it in was lame but they dont have to tell you everything. The cash shop is there, use it or dont use it. It would be a big deal if they only let certain players use it and not others.
Bottom line is that it is going to make them more money, which is pretty much what they are worried about. They arent evil, they are just trying to make a buck.
PvP or not the RMT model does affect everyone. It might first be only fluff items but after it's started it will slide towards usable stuff. Meaning that sooner or later you can buy as good or probably better gear from the cash shop than you can get from the game, making the time investment of everyone ingame void.
If you have cash and want to spend it on RMT, there are lots of Asian grinders completely built on the concept. I rather like the western "Real world money shouldn't make a difference on the fantasy world" approach, and having a cash shop certainly makes me to seek greener pastures.
So far, Vanguard has been one of the few games in the market where player crafted gear has some significance, and I fear the RMT will hit that badly as well, especially after the statted items start trickling in to shop - which they will, sooner or later.
I'm glad you found a game you can enjoy. However I think the OP has a valid point as well. Warning people about a companys underhand behaviour is a good thing. I was not involved in the SWG NGE debacle and I don't play EQ2. However I can sense a pattern forming. Thanks for the heads up.
I am truly surprised that several of you make the argument that cash shops don't matter in a PvE environment because you feel there is no competition amongst PvE players. That is not my experience and clearly that is not how item centric PvE games are designed.
PvE games are designed to be competitive for items, for knowledge, for fame, for accomplishments, etc. I don't know where you people have been, but classic EQ was very competitive especially amongst guilds, and Vanguard was originally marketed to the classic EQ players.
I myself am an achiever as many other MMOG players, and I play MMOGs to compete for knowledge, items, status and fame wether it be as a crafter or adventurer or PvP player, etc. I also enjoy screwing around and roleplaying and exploring and socializing, but item shops do negatively impact the enjoyment factor of a MMOG for any gamer who is even slightly achievement oriented. There is no point in competing with ones' wallet.
I am also flabbergasted that some of you are in such denial of the proven fact that Smedley and SOE lied thru their teeth about promising never to introduce RMT to both EQlive and EQ2 non station exchange servers, which they now have done. Given that fact, how can you possibly believe they won't introduce more stat orienetd items to these cash shops in the future. They stealth added the RMT updates in an expansion that people paid for who would not have bought it if there was prior full disclosure. SOE and Smedley are conniving and dishonest crooks.
I am truly surprised that several of you make the argument that cash shops don't matter in a PvE environment because you feel there is no competition amongst PvE players. That is not my experience and clearly that is not how item centric PvE games are designed. PvE games are designed to be competitive for items, for knowledge, for fame, for accomplishments, etc. I don't know where you people have been, but classic EQ was very competitive especially amongst guilds, and Vanguard was originally marketed to the classic EQ players. I myself am an achiever as many other MMOG players, and I play MMOGs to compete for knowledge, items, status and fame wether it be as a crafter or adventurer or PvP player, etc. I also enjoy screwing around and roleplaying and exploring and socializing, but item shops do negatively impact the enjoyment factor of a MMOG for any gamer who is even slightly achievement oriented. There is no point in competing with ones' wallet. I am also flabbergasted that some of you are in such denial of the proven fact that Smedley and SOE lied thru their teeth about promising never to introduce RMT to both EQlive and EQ2 non station exchange servers, which they now have done. Given that fact, how can you possibly believe they won't introduce more stat orienetd items to these cash shops in the future. They stealth added the RMT updates in an expansion that people paid for who would not have bought it if there was prior full disclosure. SOE and Smedley are conniving and dishonest crooks.
You keep at this like these items actually make a difference in-game. In any of the screenshots or quotes you provided there is no basis for all of this doomsaying and crying. The items are mostly for show; extra exp in a game that has been out for how long? That will break the pve mechanics! A decorative armor set in pvp?? They will be unstoppable!!
Show me some items from the RMT that you can purchase that actually have good stats for the item level. Something that would actually make a difference in-game; not something that changes character looks for $10 or something that helps a character level in a game full of maxed/alt characters. Posted predictions don't count, I can make wild accusations too.
When they start selling those then I would be inclined to agree with some of your anti-SoE propoganda. Until then I guess you can keep on doing the boycotts and maybe even arrange a sit-in at SoE's HQ, you bunch of extremists you.
haha you are crying about Station cash like if SoE were selling plats
in fact like year and half ago they lauched Legends of Norrath card game witch is something like Magic The Gathnering and booster packs have chance to include various ingame items for EQ or EQ2, some of them are pretty cool, they are mostly mounts, illusions, cloaks and kind of exp potions like you can see on that station cash screens
so kind of system where you can get ingame items for iRL money have been put into both games while ago and it didnt affect gameplay at all so wake up please
I am truly surprised that several of you make the argument that cash shops don't matter in a PvE environment because you feel there is no competition amongst PvE players. That is not my experience and clearly that is not how item centric PvE games are designed. PvE games are designed to be competitive for items, for knowledge, for fame, for accomplishments, etc. I don't know where you people have been, but classic EQ was very competitive especially amongst guilds, and Vanguard was originally marketed to the classic EQ players. I myself am an achiever as many other MMOG players, and I play MMOGs to compete for knowledge, items, status and fame wether it be as a crafter or adventurer or PvP player, etc. I also enjoy screwing around and roleplaying and exploring and socializing, but item shops do negatively impact the enjoyment factor of a MMOG for any gamer who is even slightly achievement oriented. There is no point in competing with ones' wallet. I am also flabbergasted that some of you are in such denial of the proven fact that Smedley and SOE lied thru their teeth about promising never to introduce RMT to both EQlive and EQ2 non station exchange servers, which they now have done. Given that fact, how can you possibly believe they won't introduce more stat orienetd items to these cash shops in the future. They stealth added the RMT updates in an expansion that people paid for who would not have bought it if there was prior full disclosure. SOE and Smedley are conniving and dishonest crooks.
You keep at this like these items actually make a difference in-game. In any of the screenshots or quotes you provided there is no basis for all of this doomsaying and crying. The items are mostly for show; extra exp in a game that has been out for how long? That will break the pve mechanics! A decorative armor set in pvp?? They will be unstoppable!!
Show me some items from the RMT that you can purchase that actually have good stats for the item level. Something that would actually make a difference in-game; not something that changes character looks for $10 or something that helps a character level in a game full of maxed/alt characters. Posted predictions don't count, I can make wild accusations too.
When they start selling those then I would be inclined to agree with some of your anti-SoE propoganda. Until then I guess you can keep on doing the boycotts and maybe even arrange a sit-in at SoE's HQ, you bunch of extremists you.
This is like arguing with a wall. The company lied to its customers. THe customers were told no cash shop EVER they bought 1 year memberships and expansions, the company turns around and changes their mind. That is horrible, i'm not an extremeist because I expect a company to keep its word and because I suggest that companies who cheat their customers out of money should be exposed.
Also the experience does make a difference. Even among level 80s there is a parallel leveling system known as achievement levels, which are slightly more difficult to unlock. Not everyone has all of them, in fact they added a feature that would prevent your character from leveling so he could get his alternate level set up. It is very difficult and is something that gives players an edge. When you sell 50% increased experience for these levels for 10 dollars, you are destroying the hard work players who earned these levels put in.
Also and on a less serious note...if the developer is making cool costumes, why the hell should i pay extra for it. Ive been paying for 3 years and now your saying taht if i want the new content you are designing i have to give you 10 dollars?
Once again, the cash store was promised never to come. The community didn't want it. It opens opprotunities for a stat item cash shop. No i do not have a crystal ball. I however like to use these events to make a hypothesis, and that is that SoE will lie to their customers again, and will spend their time designing items for those willing to cough up the extra buck, neglecting the devoted memebers who bought the expansions and have played for years reassured that they would have access to all content without having to make micropayments. PROMISED. ITS NOT OK TO LIE TO THE CUSTOMER. THAT IS A BAD COMPANY. The evilness of cash shops in pay to play games is debateable. The effect on gameplay is debateable. Its not ok to scam your customers.
edit: i just checked and the forum started by the EQ II manager asking for reactions has now reached 33 pages.
This is like arguing with a wall. The company lied to its customers. THe customers were told no cash shop EVER they bought 1 year memberships and expansions, the company turns around and changes their mind. That is horrible, i'm not an extremeist because I expect a company to keep its word and because I suggest that companies who cheat their customers out of money should be exposed. Also the experience does make a difference. Even among level 80s there is a parallel leveling system known as achievement levels, which are slightly more difficult to unlock. Not everyone has all of them, in fact they added a feature that would prevent your character from leveling so he could get his alternate level set up. It is very difficult and is something that gives players an edge. When you sell 50% increased experience for these levels for 10 dollars, you are destroying the hard work players who earned these levels put in. Also and on a less serious note...if the developer is making cool costumes, why the hell should i pay extra for it. Ive been paying for 3 years and now your saying taht if i want the new content you are designing i have to give you 10 dollars? Once again, the cash store was promised never to come. The community didn't want it. It opens opprotunities for a stat item cash shop. No i do not have a crystal ball. I however like to use these events to make a hypothesis, and that is that SoE will lie to their customers again, and will spend their time designing items for those willing to cough up the extra buck, neglecting the devoted memebers who bought the expansions and have played for years reassured that they would have access to all content without having to make micropayments. PROMISED. ITS NOT OK TO LIE TO THE CUSTOMER. THAT IS A BAD COMPANY. The evilness of cash shops in pay to play games is debateable. The effect on gameplay is debateable. Its not ok to scam your customers. edit: i just checked and the forum started by the EQ II manager asking for reactions has now reached 33 pages.
No, it is like arguing with someone who has better things to worry about in life rather than "Will SOE bring RMT to VG?!!?"
Nothing they are bringing to the table will change the game for me, if it does in fact come to VG. Don't know how the EQ2 achievement system works so I can't comment, and frankly don't really care.
You obviously feel that SoE owes you an explanation, you will not find it here. If RMT comes here, I expect you'll be back. Until then.
Business needs change and the world changes. If you think there are absolutes in things like this you are misguided. Every TOS you ever signed clearly says that they have the right to change it at any time. They don't put that in there for nothing. Businesses change all the time.
You have to personally decide if this is something that you can't accept and then you can post your feedback on the soe forums where they have asked for people to provide feedback and/or you can vote with your pocket book by not renewing your subscription.
It is really simple and doesn't really require coming onto the forums making a stupid attempt to lobby against SOE imagining that you are doing anything other then making yourself appear to be a crazed fanatic...
Simply say you don't like it and move on. Yeah SOE lied when they said that online transaction would never come to the other eq2 servers. Plain and simple.
Buy the game Damnit. We need more people!!!!!!!!!!!!
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
I hadn't realized that our business world needed mroe lying companies that get their last buck before they fizzled out. Interesting point. Thankyou for your advise in canceling all of my SoE accounts, that seems like an appropriate action to take. Your suggestion that these mmo forums are not a place to spread the questionable decisions of an mmo company were also very insightful and so I will talk about more relevant subjects to MMOs such as the weather. Lastly, in hindsight i should have noticed that those terms of use were not to protect the comany from customers while they mutually benefited with their clients, and rather a hidden scam i should have taken the time to read. As for a companys word, todays modern economy doesn't have room for commitments or customer opinions. I apoligize for my fantaticism, but i'm being sarcastic .
Comments
I saw some posts on this site that they found in WoW some buttons (graphics?) for an ingame itemshop.
Seems that microtransitions are the FotM.
I have very bad experience with f2p games and cash shops. If its going in this direction Im going to cancel. Time will tell.
what makes you think SOE wont introduce this to vanguard?
look... if they added the station cash for fancy stuff that doesnt have a practical use then i dont see a problem. just look at Anarchy Online, has a cash shop to buy some hoverboards or vehicles (and theres a whole lot of vehicles available besides the cash shop ones) and a lot of customes. it doesnt interfere with peoples skills or xp rate unlike the station shop from SOE which does offer xp boosters. its unfair, its an item mall on top of a p2p game. its sad and i sincerely hope no other company follows this example
MMOs currently playing: -
About to play: Lord of the Rings Online
Played: Anarchy Online (alltime favorite) and lots of f2p titles (honorable mentions: 9Dragons, Martial Heroes, Dekaron, Atlantica Online)
It was pictures from WoW and Ragnarok Online (i think). Please read up on the linked and posted material. It isn't cash shops in the traditional sense, nor item malls in the traditional sense. It is all superflous gear.
Doubtful it would come to VG, since it is not very popular at the moment; to do this would require dev. time and money and I doubt they would want to pour that into VG. You never know though.
As you said, time will tell.
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Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
I resubbed to VG last night. Its the only game on the market that I find really fun at the moment. EQ got a cash shop, I don't care. Even if VG gets a cash shop I still don't care. I wont buy anything. If other people feel the need to pay extra money for in game items, thats up to them and it wont affect me at all. I just want to play a fun game. VG is a great game with really good classes and features.
I really don't see the whole panic about this unless you are one of the people that cannot resist spending your money on items.
I will be on VG and totally recomend anyone who likes great PvE to go ahead and get this game. No matter what game you get you are funding a company that may or may not make decisions you like, and really thats up to them to do. I could care less if someone gets +50% exp for 2 hours and I don't. It doesn't bother me the least bit. I'm still going to play it just like I play any other MMO.
I think that the charges against SoE are valid and relevant, and also a huge reason why I have recently been disuading from trying this game. I was a huge fan of vanguard while it was in development as a classic EQ addict but narrowly avoided purchase once i got into beta and observed an incomplete game dangerously close to release. Seeing as almost all the games out now suck, i was looking back at my favorite SoE games, or possibly this one.
I understand that you are defending Vanguard because they havn't done anything to it, but the problem is enormous in the EQ community. They took a poll asking people if they wanted a cash shop. The reply was a bellowed no. They made a few cash shop servers, and promised on multiple occasions (there are the humiliating quotes to prove it all over those forums) that they would NEVER introduce any sort of cash shop for the other servers.
Heres where it gets better. In their new expansion, SoE sneaks in a cash shop without ever announcing it, scamming many people into buying the expansion they don't want anymore, and locking people with long term subscriptions into a situation they were sworn would never occur. The same man who has the final say on Vanguard is the one who made these decisions.
The Everquest II manager put a forum post up asking people what their opinions were on the matter, and received 20 full pages of angry posters who were disgusted, devestated, swearing to cancel.
You dismissed this as irrelevant entirely to these forums because you enjoy Vanguard, and i'm not telling you to cancel, but forums are a good location to organize boycotts. The community has made clear they are not going to let SoE swindle them, and will do everything in their power to alert others. You think these item shops are harmless but the real situation is that they are unwanted, they were told they would not happen, and they have more game play influence than you portray. Not to mention, what is to keep them from expanding these stores? I hope SoE is made an example of, and that their wallet starts hurting till they are forced to undo their item shop, and then on top of that do something to re-establish their reputation with their player base. You think Vanguard is immune? Thats fine. You don't think these cautionary truths are welcome on this forum? You are mistaken.
LoL, let's hear your spin on it. Tell us how to interpret these statements made prior to the introduction of "Stationcash":
"We have no plans what so ever to do actual sales of in game items, and I'm personally very opposed to the idea for EverQuest. I think microtransations can be a valid business model if planned from the ground up for a game, but it would be very very bad for EQ."
and
I've been a regular lurker on this site for a while but I wanted to step in here and dispel something that's just plain not true - I don't have my name highlighted here, but anyone that doubts it's me can email me at jsmedley@soe.sony.com and I'll happily reply.Lies.
We aren't going to be allowing RMT in any way, shape or form on the non-exchange enabled EQ II servers. Period. End of statement.
In any event, I wanted to stop in and at least set the record straight - you aren't going to be seeing RMT allowed on the non-exchange enabled servers.
John Smedley"
So, am I understanding this right? They aren't doing the micro-transactions on any servers other than the exchange servers, like Bazaar? w00t!! I hope I'm understanding this right....because I can hang with that! I wouldn't ever likely be inclined to make characters on any of the exchange servers, so....frankly.....I don't care, if that's the case.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
just like to point out that Vanguard is pretty much 100% PvE and that no one honestly gives a toss what gear you have as it does not affect them in the slightest.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
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Well said, I couldn't have put it any better. I just fail to see why other's ability to buy items effect anything that I do in game.
It should be pointed out that as a long time EQ subscriber, you get the effect of those potions for free periodically (once a day? I forget).
If you have two options to power level, which is better. Paying SOE to get double exp or paying some illegal internet company money to power level you? I think they're both distasteful, but the first is less so.
So none of you care that the company flat out lied to the customers and scammed people who specifically would not pay for the expansion if it had an item shop? They concealed that they were putting in an item shop to get the last bit of cash they could. This is not just about double experience potions, especially considering how they havnt even done this in Vanguard and htis is a Vanguard forum. This is a description of the company who run's Vanguard's ethics. So you can say well they only scammed some of their customers, I would have been chill with being not as good as other players who were willing to cough up more cash although i was promised I would never have to pay more than my subscrition fee. It's ridiculous! Im sure Vanguard is swell, and I wouldn't reccomend you cancel it because its still fine. But I would advise anyone thinking about starting this game to keep in mind what SoE thinks about its customers.
I will never understand why people protest a system that will never hinder or harm them in any way.
Everquest is NOT a PvP game. It's entirely PvE.
If 2 players in the game have extra items and faster XP, it doesnt hurt your gameplay at all.
Complaining that others have an advantage over you because they are more invested in the game, when it's a 0% PvP and 100% PvE game...WTF?
There is no "It's the principle of the thing." either. It's obvious jealousy, immaturity, and envy. Anyone who complains or gets upset over someone else (whom they will most likely never encounter, compete with, or oppose) having a fair advantage- has some personal issues they need to deal with.
If it really bothers you THAT much- then invest just as much into the game as they do. Then you can "compete" better with others in a non-competitive, no-pvp, compeltely PvE CoOp video game.........
Im not a fan of cash shops but i have to agree with what ArchAngel says here. In a PVE game it really doesnt matter. There is no advantage gained. For a PVP game this would be a disaster but i dont seeing it having an affect on a PVE game at all. Especially if it is pretty much fluff items and some exp boosts. Exp boosts really shouldnt matter because MMOs arent supposed to be a race.
Its funny because Everquest 2, the one who currently has the cash shop is a PVP game. There is lots of PVP. In fact there are two oposing factions which are constantly engaging in pvp with their own sets of classes and races and cities which cannot communicate with each other. VERY PVP.
Now that we've established that your excuse is not valid, this really is not about other playres, this is about a customer to provider relationship. SoE took the polls. The people said no. They set up cash shop servers anyway. They promised in multiple announcements that they would "Never" put a cash shop into the game. They did not say we won't put an epic gear cash shop so vanity items are ok. they said no cash shop ever. After these polls, and after all of the players interested in cash shops trasnfered to the cash shop servers, they put in a cash shop without announcing after people had purcahsed the expansion. This is a scam. Maybe you woudl be ok with it. THese people were not. They were promised that would not happen to them. It matters to them. They are outraged. This is not ok for a company to do. It is not only about the money they will gain off of those foolish enough to use it, and not only about the players who will be paying 15 dollars a month and not getting the full content until they treat the game like some piece of shit f2p, it is about the broken promise and the players who they duped knowing very well that they did not want the cash shop. If they wanted the cash shop, they woudl have taken the free transfer to the cash shop servers. Even if it were only vanity items. Why can' t they just give everyone cool looking gear. That is good customer service vs bad customer service. Yes it does affect the game play. And more importantly, yes it shows alot about SoEs ethics. They don't care if they can make a buck. If it were a pve game i would feel the same way. If i want to pay to feel special ill play some free game with graphics just as good or better, and with a publisher who takes care of its customers.
You are 100% right, EQ2 does have PVP so it does matter somewhat. But it only matters if beneficial items are being sold. Which may be happening, i dont know, no one has shown that it is happening yet. The only thing that has been shown that is beneficial is exp potions and they in themselves dont affect a PVP fight.
SOE took a poll but did they ever say that whatever the player base wants is what we will do? People play the game but SOE ownes the game, so they can do with it what they want. And you the consumer have the right not to pay for their service. This should not be a big surprise to anyone, it happened in EQ and SWG long before it happened in EQ2.
True sneaking it in was lame but they dont have to tell you everything. The cash shop is there, use it or dont use it. It would be a big deal if they only let certain players use it and not others.
Bottom line is that it is going to make them more money, which is pretty much what they are worried about. They arent evil, they are just trying to make a buck.
PvP or not the RMT model does affect everyone. It might first be only fluff items but after it's started it will slide towards usable stuff. Meaning that sooner or later you can buy as good or probably better gear from the cash shop than you can get from the game, making the time investment of everyone ingame void.
If you have cash and want to spend it on RMT, there are lots of Asian grinders completely built on the concept. I rather like the western "Real world money shouldn't make a difference on the fantasy world" approach, and having a cash shop certainly makes me to seek greener pastures.
So far, Vanguard has been one of the few games in the market where player crafted gear has some significance, and I fear the RMT will hit that badly as well, especially after the statted items start trickling in to shop - which they will, sooner or later.
Playing: AC2
Played: UO, DaoC, Horizons, Ryzom, WAR, LotRO, Eve, VG...
"...I fear the RMT will hit that badly as well, especially after the statted items start trickling in to shop - which they will, sooner or later."
Mind if I borrow your crystal ball? Your prognostication skills are simply amazing.
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
I'm glad you found a game you can enjoy. However I think the OP has a valid point as well. Warning people about a companys underhand behaviour is a good thing. I was not involved in the SWG NGE debacle and I don't play EQ2. However I can sense a pattern forming. Thanks for the heads up.
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I am truly surprised that several of you make the argument that cash shops don't matter in a PvE environment because you feel there is no competition amongst PvE players. That is not my experience and clearly that is not how item centric PvE games are designed.
PvE games are designed to be competitive for items, for knowledge, for fame, for accomplishments, etc. I don't know where you people have been, but classic EQ was very competitive especially amongst guilds, and Vanguard was originally marketed to the classic EQ players.
I myself am an achiever as many other MMOG players, and I play MMOGs to compete for knowledge, items, status and fame wether it be as a crafter or adventurer or PvP player, etc. I also enjoy screwing around and roleplaying and exploring and socializing, but item shops do negatively impact the enjoyment factor of a MMOG for any gamer who is even slightly achievement oriented. There is no point in competing with ones' wallet.
I am also flabbergasted that some of you are in such denial of the proven fact that Smedley and SOE lied thru their teeth about promising never to introduce RMT to both EQlive and EQ2 non station exchange servers, which they now have done. Given that fact, how can you possibly believe they won't introduce more stat orienetd items to these cash shops in the future. They stealth added the RMT updates in an expansion that people paid for who would not have bought it if there was prior full disclosure. SOE and Smedley are conniving and dishonest crooks.
You keep at this like these items actually make a difference in-game. In any of the screenshots or quotes you provided there is no basis for all of this doomsaying and crying. The items are mostly for show; extra exp in a game that has been out for how long? That will break the pve mechanics! A decorative armor set in pvp?? They will be unstoppable!!
Show me some items from the RMT that you can purchase that actually have good stats for the item level. Something that would actually make a difference in-game; not something that changes character looks for $10 or something that helps a character level in a game full of maxed/alt characters. Posted predictions don't count, I can make wild accusations too.
When they start selling those then I would be inclined to agree with some of your anti-SoE propoganda. Until then I guess you can keep on doing the boycotts and maybe even arrange a sit-in at SoE's HQ, you bunch of extremists you.
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Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
haha you are crying about Station cash like if SoE were selling plats
in fact like year and half ago they lauched Legends of Norrath card game witch is something like Magic The Gathnering and booster packs have chance to include various ingame items for EQ or EQ2, some of them are pretty cool, they are mostly mounts, illusions, cloaks and kind of exp potions like you can see on that station cash screens
so kind of system where you can get ingame items for iRL money have been put into both games while ago and it didnt affect gameplay at all so wake up please
You keep at this like these items actually make a difference in-game. In any of the screenshots or quotes you provided there is no basis for all of this doomsaying and crying. The items are mostly for show; extra exp in a game that has been out for how long? That will break the pve mechanics! A decorative armor set in pvp?? They will be unstoppable!!
Show me some items from the RMT that you can purchase that actually have good stats for the item level. Something that would actually make a difference in-game; not something that changes character looks for $10 or something that helps a character level in a game full of maxed/alt characters. Posted predictions don't count, I can make wild accusations too.
When they start selling those then I would be inclined to agree with some of your anti-SoE propoganda. Until then I guess you can keep on doing the boycotts and maybe even arrange a sit-in at SoE's HQ, you bunch of extremists you.
This is like arguing with a wall. The company lied to its customers. THe customers were told no cash shop EVER they bought 1 year memberships and expansions, the company turns around and changes their mind. That is horrible, i'm not an extremeist because I expect a company to keep its word and because I suggest that companies who cheat their customers out of money should be exposed.
Also the experience does make a difference. Even among level 80s there is a parallel leveling system known as achievement levels, which are slightly more difficult to unlock. Not everyone has all of them, in fact they added a feature that would prevent your character from leveling so he could get his alternate level set up. It is very difficult and is something that gives players an edge. When you sell 50% increased experience for these levels for 10 dollars, you are destroying the hard work players who earned these levels put in.
Also and on a less serious note...if the developer is making cool costumes, why the hell should i pay extra for it. Ive been paying for 3 years and now your saying taht if i want the new content you are designing i have to give you 10 dollars?
Once again, the cash store was promised never to come. The community didn't want it. It opens opprotunities for a stat item cash shop. No i do not have a crystal ball. I however like to use these events to make a hypothesis, and that is that SoE will lie to their customers again, and will spend their time designing items for those willing to cough up the extra buck, neglecting the devoted memebers who bought the expansions and have played for years reassured that they would have access to all content without having to make micropayments. PROMISED. ITS NOT OK TO LIE TO THE CUSTOMER. THAT IS A BAD COMPANY. The evilness of cash shops in pay to play games is debateable. The effect on gameplay is debateable. Its not ok to scam your customers.
edit: i just checked and the forum started by the EQ II manager asking for reactions has now reached 33 pages.
No, it is like arguing with someone who has better things to worry about in life rather than "Will SOE bring RMT to VG?!!?"
Nothing they are bringing to the table will change the game for me, if it does in fact come to VG. Don't know how the EQ2 achievement system works so I can't comment, and frankly don't really care.
You obviously feel that SoE owes you an explanation, you will not find it here. If RMT comes here, I expect you'll be back. Until then.
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Originally posted by javac
well i'm 35 and have a PhD in science, and then 10 years experience in bioinformatics... you?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/218865/page/8
It is done...
Business needs change and the world changes. If you think there are absolutes in things like this you are misguided. Every TOS you ever signed clearly says that they have the right to change it at any time. They don't put that in there for nothing. Businesses change all the time.
You have to personally decide if this is something that you can't accept and then you can post your feedback on the soe forums where they have asked for people to provide feedback and/or you can vote with your pocket book by not renewing your subscription.
It is really simple and doesn't really require coming onto the forums making a stupid attempt to lobby against SOE imagining that you are doing anything other then making yourself appear to be a crazed fanatic...
Simply say you don't like it and move on. Yeah SOE lied when they said that online transaction would never come to the other eq2 servers. Plain and simple.
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Ethion
Buy the game Damnit. We need more people!!!!!!!!!!!!
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
I hadn't realized that our business world needed mroe lying companies that get their last buck before they fizzled out. Interesting point. Thankyou for your advise in canceling all of my SoE accounts, that seems like an appropriate action to take. Your suggestion that these mmo forums are not a place to spread the questionable decisions of an mmo company were also very insightful and so I will talk about more relevant subjects to MMOs such as the weather. Lastly, in hindsight i should have noticed that those terms of use were not to protect the comany from customers while they mutually benefited with their clients, and rather a hidden scam i should have taken the time to read. As for a companys word, todays modern economy doesn't have room for commitments or customer opinions. I apoligize for my fantaticism, but i'm being sarcastic .
Also its now 36 pages long.