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What is the purpose of an NDA?
This is for discussion... so let's try and keep the posts civil... Thanks! 
What is your opinion of the purpose of an NDA for a MMO in development?
It is my opinion that the main purpose of an NDA is to keep information away from the MMO's competitors so that they can't release or update their game with the same Feature or mechanic before the MMO with the NDA has a chance to Release their game.
I'd be interesting in hearing other's opinions on what purpose an NDA serves.
With my opinion of what an NDA serves in mind, for me it brings up the question...
What purpose does DarkFall have in keeping it's NDA intact with just 5 weeks until they release?
Does Aventurine think that other MMO's will have the time to code, implement, test, and then release/update their MMO with the information released from DarkFall's NDA?
I guess I can't think of any other reason why Aventurine would keep the NDA in place for DarkFall. That's why I decided to pose the question to everyone else here. Perhaps there is something that I am over-looking?
Comments
probable because of your statement (of the other companies stealing info and what not) or it could be due to the fact that people dont like it and they dont want that to get out to the public so that some suckers would buy it at the beggining
PS: i think the ladder option is stupid
PPS: no fanboy no flamer
it's not just about keeping it underwraps from competitors, its also so that any problems with the game itself are kept among the devs and testers so that the game can be as polished and customer/player ready as possible before release. They don't want outbreaks and people rage quitting over silly things that they may or may not change/fix before they release the game.
It is also to some degree used to hype up the game.
- Syn
Main purpose to keep any trade secrets out rivals hands, as well as giving rivals ability to capitalize on any mistakes they are making.
Example: WAR talked about siege weapons and massive keep and control battles.
WoW introduced massive siege battles and keep and control battles.
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it's not just about keeping it underwraps from competitors, its also so that any problems with the game itself are kept among the devs and testers so that the game can be as polished and customer/player ready as possible before release. They don't want outbreaks and people rage quitting over silly things that they may or may not change/fix before they release the game.
It is also to some degree used to hype up the game.
Thanks, I had forgot about that part for an NDA.
Although in this instance... for DarkFall... that part doesn't apply, right? If we are to believe what Tasos has told us about the state of readiness of the game, then that shouldn't even be a concern to them at all. So, then we are back to where we started.
competitors.
But that doesn't explain DarkFall's need to keep their NDA up does it? Unless someone thinks it would be possible for another MMO to: code, implement, test, and then update that kind of content in less than 5 weeks.
Do you think competitors to DarkFall can implement that kind of content in under 5 weeks into their own MMO?
Well there is what the NDA is (historically) supposed to be used for, and what companies choose to use it for. Different companies have used their NDA in different ways, particularly with the more recent mmos.
Its supposed to be used for protecting a game's features and status during the beta process. This keeps design decisions out of the hands of competition, and prevents pre-emptive judgement of a product based on partial progress mid development. Most products should be judged based on the state they are in at release, and not halfway through the development process.
Some companies recently however have exploited the purpose of the NDA for less honorable means. Not just to hide the status of the game during development (which is a valid use) but to hide the status of the game until customers have purchased the product (not valid). This opens up an easy path for deceiving customers about feature lists and general quality of the product in an attempt to increase initial box sales.
Funcom's AoC is the biggest example i can think of that employed this tactic, though there are certainly others. Dx10, massive siege battles, etc were all features claimed to be in and complete, details protected by NDA, but were anything but.
There isn't anything inherently wrong about NDA's - they are a tool that can be either used for good or bad. But without some enforced standards of use, it is very easy for them to be abused by the company employing them. The easiest way to tell if its happening is whether or not an NDA drops before release, or after release. Darkfall hasn't released yet, so IMO its nda does not yet constitute a breach of proper NDA use.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
to break
Do you think competitors to DarkFall can implement that kind of content in under 5 weeks into their own MMO?
How the hell should i know im not a competitor. Plus you dont need to take ALL the content to have content stolen from you.
I honestly hope it's competitiors and not a game issue. I really want to play this game.
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
It is NOT to keep information from other developers. The fact is it takes a long time to add features. Even if Darkfall's beta testers 'slipped' us some information back in October, it would take another company a long time to try and mimic that feature. A good example is the Acheivement system from Lotro and WOW. it took WOW over two years to implement it after Lotro already had it in the game and it was cheered as a great feature. Besides that, most companies would wait and see how it worked on a live game before trying to mimic it. Did anyone notice that WOW decided to mimic DAOC's seige mechanisms rather than Warhammer's beta version?
And darkfall clearly isn't doing anything new. All of their main systems were done in UO (pre-trammel). The pvp system is almost exactly what you had in UO before trammel.
The truth is the reason Darkfall hasn't lifted the NDA is for 2 reasons. The first being it would be revealed how few people are actually in beta (100 tops). The second reason is that the 'feature' list would finally get revised. The game has been 'feature complete' for years, yet nobody knows what those features are. Some of the ones on the official website have already been announced as being removed. Every game is perfect until you know something about it. That is basically the case with Darkfall. Fans are 'filling in the blanks" with what they think would be ideal... because the developers haven't announced anything yet.
They are pulling a con game. The NDA is simply to force people to buy the game at launch in order to see what actually is in the game and if the game works at all. Does nobody remember AOC and Hellgate? Can someone name a decent game that was released without a full and open beta?
Anyone who buys this game the first week is proving PT Barnum accurate.
Sounds like you dont have much business experience. I agree that it takes a long time to add features (depending on the feature), but just because it takes 'a long time' doesn't mean anything to anyone except ignorent players.
If you were a business, and you could either have a monopoly on a product/feature for 6 months, or a monopoly on a product/feature for a year, which would you choose?
Fact is, the longer it takes for the competition to copy a feature, the longer the originator can capitalize on it. The sooner the competition knows, the sooner they can start planning and implementing it on their end. Speaking purely in terms of business, there is zero benefit to letting a competitor know sooner rather than later. Obviously there is a line to be drawn because you can't keep it from your customers as well (i 100% agree with you on how Funcom abused this, see my earlier post above) however its very clear that there are benefits to keeping info away from copycats. 1 or 2 months difference may not be much from a regular old customers point of view, but in business terms it can translate into lots of $$$
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Sounds like you dont have much business experience. I agree that it takes a long time to add features (depending on the feature), but just because it takes 'a long time' doesn't mean anything to anyone except ignorent players.
If you were a business, and you could either have a monopoly on a product/feature for 6 months, or a monopoly on a product/feature for a year, which would you choose?
Fact is, the longer it takes for the competition to copy a feature, the longer the originator can capitalize on it. The sooner the competition knows, the sooner they can start planning and implementing it on their end. Speaking purely in terms of business, there is zero benefit to letting a competitor know sooner rather than later. Obviously there is a line to be drawn because you can't keep it from your customers as well (i 100% agree with you on how Funcom abused this, see my earlier post above) however its very clear that there are benefits to keeping info away from copycats. 1 or 2 months difference may not be much from a regular old customers point of view, but in business terms it can translate into lots of $$$
So, with that in mind...
What do you think would be an appropriate amount of time before Release for DarkFall to drop their NDA?
1 week?
2 weeks?
1 month?
We are already at the 5 week mark (36 days, not counting today). We aren't talking monthS anymore... it's down to weeks and days before release. So when would be an appropriate time to give future customers a chance to decide if they like what the game will offer, but not give competitors an advantage they might be able to capitalize on?
My opinion is that no later than the end of this week; the 22nd of Dec. at the latest. Past that... it gets closer and closer to what Funcom did with their NDA.
I would personally say either whenever open beta begins or between 2-4 weeks prior to release, whichever comes first. I think your opinion on the date is a fair one, pretty close to what i would consider as a customer to be ideal, though i personally I would give about a week more than that, as I dont believe damage can be done to the customer that far in advance.
Ultimately, the goal is to keep competition's hands off while still giving the customer time to evaluate the state of the game and any changes to the features list before shelling out the cash. I do believe there is a middleground to be found in the timing where neither the customer or developer has to be screwed.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
I think that depends on the company making the game. (their track record). I buy every Bioware or Blizzard game as soon as it is on the shelf. I don't care if I beta'd it or read 1000's of beta testers. I know it's going to be a finished product that is fun.
Funcom and Darkfall are the opposite end. Funcom had really 1 other product, that was released totally unfinished (AO). They then pulled shenangans with the launch of AOC ( very restricted beta and no lifting of NDA). Everything except blind faith told you something was wrong without their past track record.. with their past record, it was a sure thing the game was busted.
Darkfall just has no history and has been borderline vaporware the last 5 years. The company producing it is very unprofessional and without a track record. Except for blind-faith, every spider-sense is tingling that something is amiss with the launch on Jan 22. Anyone who has ever followed game development before knows that something is not right with this game's launch. If they have a 2-3 week full open beta without an NDA.. I'll eat my words and admit I'm wrong. But the way it appears, they are just going to keep quiet and launch the game without any real public testing.
I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
I think that depends on the company making the game. (their track record). I buy every Bioware or Blizzard game as soon as it is on the shelf. I don't care if I beta'd it or read 1000's of beta testers. I know it's going to be a finished product that is fun.
Funcom and Darkfall are the opposite end. Funcom had really 1 other product, that was released totally unfinished (AO). They then pulled shenangans with the launch of AOC ( very restricted beta and no lifting of NDA). Everything except blind faith told you something was wrong without their past track record.. with their past record, it was a sure thing the game was busted.
Darkfall just has no history and has been borderline vaporware the last 5 years. The company producing it is very unprofessional and without a track record. Except for blind-faith, every spider-sense is tingling that something is amiss with the launch on Jan 22. Anyone who has ever followed game development before knows that something is not right with this game's launch. If they have a 2-3 week full open beta without an NDA.. I'll eat my words and admit I'm wrong. But the way it appears, they are just going to keep quiet and launch the game without any real public testing.
I doubt Aventurine will pull a funcom here, for one they really don't have much room to do so. They are very aware of their vapor status and that they are under a magnifying glass, IMO the number of people who would blindly buy DF is rather small, especially after recent disasters (AoC, WAR, VG...). Also, they have next to no marketing at all, which would go against the whole con strategy.
But like I said, I wont buy any game with blinders on.
grayghost, you should read this post over and over and over...its very well-written...i hope it raises some "red flags" in your own head...if it doesn't, well, it just goes to show you are a fanboi pretending to have a tiny bit of common sense...
also read the subsequent post from the same guy...
on the topic of nda, i still firmly believe that come jan 22nd, the supposed day of launch, the df nda will still be in "full effect" and fanbois will continue to believe tasos and crew without question...a history of zero follow through on statements/promises from aventurine is on my side...
I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
First of all you cant comepare aventurine with any developer out there in the entire history of mmo's.
They are comepletely different in there approach.
I still dont know much how game will be but one thing is clear to me its real and its comming.
And after all the years ive followed Darkfall sinds 2002 ill buy game as soon as its avaible if it fails well bad luck.
But im convinced that game will not fail becouse its half finished or very bugged or unstable servers.
No i think it go into history as first mmo thats almost 100% finished and bug free at launch with stable servers.
Im just unclear on how it will play thats all, but its very finished game im sure:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
First of all you cant comepare aventurine with any developer out there in the entire history of mmo's.
They are comepletely different in there approach.
I still dont know much how game will be but one thing is clear to me its real and its comming.
And after all the years ive followed Darkfall sinds 2002 ill buy game as soon as its avaible if it fails well bad luck.
But im convinced that game will not fail becouse its half finished or very bugged or unstable servers.
No i think it go into history as first mmo thats almost 100% finished and bug free at launch with stable servers.
Im just unclear on how it will play thats all, but its very finished game im sure:)
It's hard to keep it civil when people babble in bad english.
Yes Aventurine is different in their approach in that they don't let the public know ANYTHING that is going on. Or when beta might start. How can you tell if a game is very finished when you have never played it?? You are the reason developers put out such crappy unfinished games.. You said yourself you will buy the game as soon as it's "avaible" and that it will be the first MMO to have a 100% finished bug free launch, all because you have been a fanboi since 2002. Great.
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I'm a fan of Darkfall, anyone can see that from my post history, but I still advise everyone to take a good look at what this guy is saying here. Do NOT buy Darkfall (or any other game for that matter), before you are 100% sure that it is what they promise it to be.
For me it's not because of the money, but because the more game developers are let to get away with this shit, the more of it we will see in the future. AoC is a perfect example, it made huge amounts of money just from box sales alone and all those people who bought into the hype, were actually paying to play beta (Edit: actually it was more like alpha). That makes me sick.
If Darkfall is half-finished when they launch, I wont buy it. And I've waited DF longer than I'm willing to admit.
First of all you cant comepare aventurine with any developer out there in the entire history of mmo's.
They are comepletely different in there approach.
I still dont know much how game will be but one thing is clear to me its real and its comming.
And after all the years ive followed Darkfall sinds 2002 ill buy game as soon as its avaible if it fails well bad luck.
But im convinced that game will not fail becouse its half finished or very bugged or unstable servers.
No i think it go into history as first mmo thats almost 100% finished and bug free at launch with stable servers.
Im just unclear on how it will play thats all, but its very finished game im sure:)
It's hard to keep it civil when people babble in bad english.
Yes Aventurine is different in their approach in that they don't let the public know ANYTHING that is going on. Or when beta might start. How can you tell if a game is very finished when you have never played it?? You are the reason developers put out such crappy unfinished games.. You said yourself you will buy the game as soon as it's "avaible" and that it will be the first MMO to have a 100% finished bug free launch, all because you have been a fanboi since 2002. Great.
A.) try it for myself.
B.) see good reviews of the game from players and game sites.
I understand what the NDA is for and why it is used, I also understand why developers don't want people giving their opinions about an unfinished and unbalanced game. What leads to the red flag in my mind to instantly doubt the game's stability.
I know everyone hates WoW but Blizzard did it right. WoW's open beta lasted nearly a month, and through word of mouth got so popular and overwhelmed it lead to the disaster of a lunch with server stability from the flood of all the new players on launch day.
Darkfall, needs at least 3 weeks open beta just to test the game's stability. With so many features and having to aim and keep up with people will be so fucking stupid if you're lagging like fuck, and that is not something I want to pay for.
I have said I will buy DF even without open beta, even without the NDA being dropped, and pay for 3 months time also. I do this to support the market for this type of game... plus sadly DFO even if terrible is the only game I think I can stomach at this point.
But I agree even being a bit of a fanboy that the longer then NDA is in affect the more and more doubt all the potential new costumers they could attract turns them away from the game... 1 month away is getting pretty close for comfort in a lot of peoples eyes.
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I would personally say either whenever open beta begins or between 2-4 weeks prior to release, whichever comes first. I think your opinion on the date is a fair one, pretty close to what i would consider as a customer to be ideal, though i personally I would give about a week more than that, as I dont believe damage can be done to the customer that far in advance.
Ultimately, the goal is to keep competition's hands off while still giving the customer time to evaluate the state of the game and any changes to the features list before shelling out the cash. I do believe there is a middleground to be found in the timing where neither the customer or developer has to be screwed.
Yeah, I'd like to see it lifted a lot closer to 4 weeks than the 2 weeks.
If it pushes too far into 2009 before the NDA is lifted; for me anyway, that will be raising a lot of red flags.
Yeah, I'd like to see it lifted a lot closer to 4 weeks than the 2 weeks.
If it pushes too far into 2009 before the NDA is lifted; for me anyway, that will be raising a lot of red flags.
I seriously doubt them lifting it before open beta, which will be 2 weeks tops. So expect to have a lot of flags raised in your head, not like anyone will care at that point because the hype will reach a hysteric climax 1 week/days before openbeta.
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