And after that WE has killed that one toon what happens to the poor WE? SPLAT! WAR should have stuck to its guns about no stealth. The WE and WH are horrible classes. They are pure gank classes with no survivability when it comes to RvR.
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
And after that WE has killed that one toon what happens to the poor WE? SPLAT! WAR should have stuck to its guns about no stealth. The WE and WH are horrible classes. They are pure gank classes with no survivability when it comes to RvR.
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
u fail to mention how uve come to the conclusion that there is no skill playing a w/e... i fail to mention that i am suffering spec... if u have a lvl 40 w/e and u feel u need no skill playing this class then ur opinion is valid, if u dont, then u need not speak of theories, but experiences. i have done just that. whether or not u think i am good or mediocre at what i do is purely relative.
WTF is "u" and "ur" "uve" Is this leet speak? Lots of periods in there and no...capitals. Learn to Read , you know and write. I think they teach that shit in fucking grade school.
Translation: Fukn Lrn2read and right, Ur edumication iz showing. W/E Rulz and takz skilZ
Sorry...
Sick of the I-pod generation educated through cell phone text. /end rant.
On topic. W/E's are fine, (imo), thier carnage tree is a bit out of sync with their mirror but all in all rogues always are a pain in the ass no matter what. On the record I have played one to 32 but got bored with it. I like my Warrior Priest and DoK to much. Playing a WP might be why they don't bother me to much. I have heard the argumnet both ways about W/E's but for me they just don't seem that difficult.
Your beautiful carnage spec in action... yes i was up against two order, 1 w/p, 1 i/b the iron breaker was less of a threat in this battle and i was focused on the warrior priest that being "ako" a w/e does the majority of its damage at the begining of battle so after we run outta ap, its all downhill from there and this battle lasted roughly 10 seconds w/p "ako" did roughly 5k damage i/b "bife" did roughly 2.5k damage w/e "me" did a wopping 1k damage to "ako"... TY OP carnage spec
But every1 will keep saying w/e r op just like they always have. i also posted the original screen on the gallery here
Please tell me this a joke post?
You've already done over 4k damage to 'Niceshot' with Enfeebling Strike and Ruthless Strike - my guess is in less than 3 secs, but you don't timestamp so that's an educated guess.
You then got raped by 2 of his team mates whilst you were in full view - so?
The target you chose - Niceshot - is already dead. Thank you for further proving how OP your class is.
Don't bother presenting any more 'evidence' unless it's in your favour, is my advice to you
And after that WE has killed that one toon what happens to the poor WE? SPLAT! WAR should have stuck to its guns about no stealth. The WE and WH are horrible classes. They are pure gank classes with no survivability when it comes to RvR.
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
Well my experience was with that of an Archmage, if you say a Rune Priest can survive the 500 or so DPS that the WE dish out then I cant object to that since I have never played one but an Archmage cannot heal a tank for 500 DPS, even less so himself and if an Archmage cannot survive longer than a few seconds then for sure other casters (beside Rune Priest) cannot either.
And it does not matter how much team play you have because I do not consider having a personal body guard(s) to watch over you at all time as being team play. Granted casters should be at a disadvantage against high DPS classes but to have no chance at all, despite how skillfull you are? That is just flawed game design.
I can't speak for T3 or T4 yet, as I just started my WH two days ago, already rank 17.
I do know that if the rest of my team isn't completely stupid in a SC, I can easily top of damage done and killing blows, beating plenty of WEs, even rank 21 ones.
It is rare to find a team that is good though, most try to solo and split up, or have no healers.
And after that WE has killed that one toon what happens to the poor WE? SPLAT! WAR should have stuck to its guns about no stealth. The WE and WH are horrible classes. They are pure gank classes with no survivability when it comes to RvR.
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
Well my experience was with that of an Archmage, if you say a Rune Priest can survive the 500 or so DPS that the WE dish out then I cant object to that since I have never played one but an Archmage cannot heal a tank for 500 DPS, even less so himself and if an Archmage cannot survive longer than a few seconds then for sure other casters (beside Rune Priest) cannot either.
And it does not matter how much team play you have because I do not consider having a personal body guard(s) to watch over you at all time as being team play. Granted casters should be at a disadvantage against high DPS classes but to have no chance at all, despite how skillfull you are? That is just flawed game design.
The point is that you can survive long enough. A healer can never hold on indefinitely against a melee dps and winning a 1v1 is completely impossible - and that's just what it is supposed to be like.
Melee DPS and especially stealther ones (as opposed to assaults) are specifically designed to kill healers and squishies. This is their reason for existence. I mentioned I play a tank (Swordmaster) at T4 as well... I simply cannot win against a healer in 1v1 - it slowly melts me down like I was a snowman, constantly healing itself. On the other hand I kill WEs without breaking a sweat or feeling threatened (unless they jump me at less than 50% hp and away from a healer). If the area is crawling with WEs then the team needs to adapt - tanks should go defense and you'll see those WE's breaking like waves on inmovable rocks. Just turtle up a bit and push forward. More WEs means less other classes - they could be weak on their own healers or tanks... which is much much worse than being short on melee dps.
The game is intentionally made rock-paper-scissors. If you're looking for 1v1 balance then look somewhere else because you'll be sorely disappointed with WAR. The way the classes are designed FORCES them to work together - teamplay is GOD in this game. I'd say that in a scenario 80% is teamplay and 20% individual skill (1v1), gear etc. Even group composition isn't as important as it might seem at a first glance.
Heh on my server there was a temporary shortage of T4 order healers. I was dumb-struck when I saw a couple of wins in Serpents Passage where order had NO healers at all - just pure teamplay and knowledge of class synergies. For example your AM does spirit damage.. When you see a Swordmaster doing its AoE that means that all the enemies in vicinity just took a massive temporary debuff to their spirit res - this is the moment to fire off that instant nuke you've been building up through healing.
Aditionally a healer should NEVER be alone. If you're looking for a more solo class that can survive a lot then roll a tank and spec it for dps - you migh not have a chance against your nemesis (healers in this case) but at least you'll have a bag of tricks that'll enable you to run away... even though one of tanks roles IS making a noble sacrafice to tie down as many enemies as possible and give their team enough time to do their job.
Your beautiful carnage spec in action... yes i was up against two order, 1 w/p, 1 i/b the iron breaker was less of a threat in this battle and i was focused on the warrior priest that being "ako" a w/e does the majority of its damage at the begining of battle so after we run outta ap, its all downhill from there and this battle lasted roughly 10 seconds w/p "ako" did roughly 5k damage i/b "bife" did roughly 2.5k damage w/e "me" did a wopping 1k damage to "ako"... TY OP carnage spec
But every1 will keep saying w/e r op just like they always have. i also posted the original screen on the gallery here
Please tell me this a joke post?
You've already done over 4k damage to 'Niceshot' with Enfeebling Strike and Ruthless Strike - my guess is in less than 3 secs, but you don't timestamp so that's an educated guess.
You then got raped by 2 of his team mates whilst you were in full view - so?
The target you chose - Niceshot - is already dead. Thank you for further proving how OP your class is.
Don't bother presenting any more 'evidence' unless it's in your favour, is my advice to you
correct i have made the mistake of presenting this without timestamps, i fail on that note, but the battle with niceshot was over way before i attacked ako, i was only being attacked by ako and bife oh and if u look up niceshot he was only rank 32 and running away the whole time i had e/s on him, he killed himself unfortunately. so 40 vs 32 of course im OP.
1. Witch Elfs work as intented, so did bright wizards... but enough destruction players QQ, and they got nerfed.
2. If your fricken sick of dying to a W/E... disown your party... or just roll a different class like a tank.
3. Cause at the end of the day... W/E have crap survivability... their insane dmg... more enough makes up for them having to sneak behind enemy lines.. attack the healers/caster, while worrying to death... that a WL or WH.... or some other class will own them in mere seconds. They serve no other purpose... if they stand back and do nothing.. their wasting their potential...... atleast a WH can attack with a fricken gun.
4. Don't blame another classes one strong point... cause you can't handle your class... cause reading some peoples posts. Some of you forget this a team game.... not a "it's all bout me" game like WoW.
5. I'm a BlackGuard.... so save your immature "Your just a fricken WE" crap. Granted i play on the same team as WE... but those goddamn WH and WL can cause alot of fricken headaches themselfs.
The point is that you can survive long enough. A healer can never hold on indefinitely against a melee dps and winning a 1v1 is completely impossible - and that's just what it is supposed to be like. Melee DPS and especially stealther ones (as opposed to assaults) are specifically designed to kill healers and squishies. This is their reason for existence. I mentioned I play a tank (Swordmaster) at T4 as well... I simply cannot win against a healer in 1v1 - it slowly melts me down like I was a snowman, constantly healing itself. On the other hand I kill WEs without breaking a sweat or feeling threatened (unless they jump me at less than 50% hp and away from a healer). If the area is crawling with WEs then the team needs to adapt - tanks should go defense and you'll see those WE's breaking like waves on inmovable rocks. Just turtle up a bit and push forward. More WEs means less other classes - they could be weak on their own healers or tanks... which is much much worse than being short on melee dps. The game is intentionally made rock-paper-scissors. If you're looking for 1v1 balance then look somewhere else because you'll be sorely disappointed with WAR. The way the classes are designed FORCES them to work together - teamplay is GOD in this game. I'd say that in a scenario 80% is teamplay and 20% individual skill (1v1), gear etc. Even group composition isn't as important as it might seem at a first glance. Heh on my server there was a temporary shortage of T4 order healers. I was dumb-struck when I saw a couple of wins in Serpents Passage where order had NO healers at all - just pure teamplay and knowledge of class synergies. For example your AM does spirit damage.. When you see a Swordmaster doing its AoE that means that all the enemies in vicinity just took a massive temporary debuff to their spirit res - this is the moment to fire off that instant nuke you've been building up through healing. Aditionally a healer should NEVER be alone. If you're looking for a more solo class that can survive a lot then roll a tank and spec it for dps - you migh not have a chance against your nemesis (healers in this case) but at least you'll have a bag of tricks that'll enable you to run away... even though one of tanks roles IS making a noble sacrafice to tie down as many enemies as possible and give their team enough time to do their job.
Have you even read my post? No you cannot survive long enough against a WE because their DPS is far higher than any healing capability and far higher than any other class, including WHs. The exception is if you are surrounded by a bunch of body guards and I feel that is an unreasonable requirement to survive as a healer.
Healers must have high survivability otherwise noone will play them. The reason is that this is an RvR type game (dont know why you claim I think it is 1v1) and that means that any team with even half intelligent people will go straight for the healers and if the healer cannot stay alive he will always die.
Right now healers have a decent surviviability so thats really not a huge issue with the sole exception of WE. They have such an insane DPS that you survive maybe a few seconds before you go down. Now that is unreasonable and need to be fixed. You yourself have said that there are lack of healers. Why do you think that is? Do you think it is fun to play a class that is automatically killed in the start of a battle because there is one class that has a "I win" button against you no matter how skilled they are?
No it isnt, so they reroll something like a Swordmaster so they can influence how well they do in battle with their SKILLS not some simplistic rock, paper and scissor system that doesnt belong in something as complex as a MMORPG with dozens of classes and houndreds of different factors. In rock, paper, scissors system there are three factors, thats it, thats why it is illogical to apply it here.
Your comparison between a Swordmaster and a healer is not valid because you can still SURVIVE against a healer. A healer cant do shit against a WE unless we have an army of body guards, now that is not team play, that is unreasonable.
But if you still insist that WE should be this insane DPS character then I have a question. If destruction has a class that can auto-kill healers/casters then why doesnt order have it? I have a T2 zealot as well and WH are not a non factor but still survivable as I can often heal/protect myself through their attacks because their DPS is nowhere near that of a WE. So is this another design by choice or can it simply be that WE are somewhat imbalanced when even their Order "mirror" class barely does half their DPS?
Look man, my Swordmaster can't kill sh*** in a normal RvR situation. I'm survivable but it isn't my job to kill people. What I do is I snare, knockback, debuff and generally interrupt opponents so my DPS mates can kill them.
I haven't played a healer above T2 (just entering T3 with my RP) so I can't really speak for the healers. What I do know, as a tank, is that if there are WEs around the only thing I need to do is knock back that WE when it materializes near my healer and it is DEAD. Its existence depends on whether I'm going to knock it back so my healer has the time to get away. If the healer does get away then the WE is DEAD - and it didn't do anything. Just wasted its life for nothing. And I'm telling this from a T4 tank perspecitive - if I'm close enough and I notice what's going on then I will save that healer, no question about it. The WE will die and we will win. If I make a mistake and the healer dies then I will die as well eventually.
You will have to agree that WE's life is a pretty precarious one to lead. WEs are very strong in DPS but they are extremely vulnerable - imo this is exactly what makes the game challenging and fun for me - classes have strong advantages and weaknesses so they NEED to work together. For example: I don't get satisfaction out of killing opponents - as a tank I consider my job well done when I foil all of enemies' plans - protect my healers and punch through their lines. If you want to play a high survivability class then you have to trade it off with something - in my case extremely weak dps and no healing.
Healers must have high survivability otherwise noone will play them. The reason is that this is an RvR type game (dont know why you claim I think it is 1v1) and that means that any team with even half intelligent people will go straight for the healers and if the healer cannot stay alive he will always die.
...
That just might be the smartest thing I ever seen in these forums.
Look man, my Swordmaster can't kill sh*** in a normal RvR situation. I'm survivable but it isn't my job to kill people. What I do is I snare, knockback, debuff and generally interrupt opponents so my DPS mates can kill them. I haven't played a healer above T2 (just entering T3 with my RP) so I can't really speak for the healers. What I do know, as a tank, is that if there are WEs around the only thing I need to do is knock back that WE when it materializes near my healer and it is DEAD. Its existence depends on whether I'm going to knock it back so my healer has the time to get away. If the healer does get away then the WE is DEAD - and it didn't do anything. Just wasted its life for nothing. And I'm telling this from a T4 tank perspecitive - if I'm close enough and I notice what's going on then I will save that healer, no question about it. The WE will die and we will win. If I make a mistake and the healer dies then I will die as well eventually. You will have to agree that WE's life is a pretty precarious one to lead. WEs are very strong in DPS but they are extremely vulnerable - imo this is exactly what makes the game challenging and fun for me - classes have strong advantages and weaknesses so they NEED to work together. For example: I don't get satisfaction out of killing opponents - as a tank I consider my job well done when I foil all of enemies' plans - protect my healers and punch through their lines. If you want to play a high survivability class then you have to trade it off with something - in my case extremely weak dps and no healing.
props to u sir, i played a sp today, absolutely no healers and we won, u know why, cause we had some awesome tanks... everyone cries about there class and never really tries to learn how to play it.
Look man, my Swordmaster can't kill sh*** in a normal RvR situation. I'm survivable but it isn't my job to kill people. What I do is I snare, knockback, debuff and generally interrupt opponents so my DPS mates can kill them. I haven't played a healer above T2 (just entering T3 with my RP) so I can't really speak for the healers. What I do know, as a tank, is that if there are WEs around the only thing I need to do is knock back that WE when it materializes near my healer and it is DEAD. Its existence depends on whether I'm going to knock it back so my healer has the time to get away. If the healer does get away then the WE is DEAD - and it didn't do anything. Just wasted its life for nothing. And I'm telling this from a T4 tank perspecitive - if I'm close enough and I notice what's going on then I will save that healer, no question about it. The WE will die and we will win. If I make a mistake and the healer dies then I will die as well eventually. You will have to agree that WE's life is a pretty precarious one to lead. WEs are very strong in DPS but they are extremely vulnerable - imo this is exactly what makes the game challenging and fun for me - classes have strong advantages and weaknesses so they NEED to work together. For example: I don't get satisfaction out of killing opponents - as a tank I consider my job well done when I foil all of enemies' plans - protect my healers and punch through their lines. If you want to play a high survivability class then you have to trade it off with something - in my case extremely weak dps and no healing.
props to u sir, i played a sp today, absolutely no healers and we won, u know why, cause we had some awesome tanks... everyone cries about there class and never really tries to learn how to play it.
1. Witch Elfs work as intented, so did bright wizards... but enough destruction players QQ, and they got nerfed. 2. If your fricken sick of dying to a W/E... disown your party... or just roll a different class like a tank. 3. Cause at the end of the day... W/E have crap survivability... their insane dmg... more enough makes up for them having to sneak behind enemy lines.. attack the healers/caster, while worrying to death... that a WL or WH.... or some other class will own them in mere seconds. They serve no other purpose... if they stand back and do nothing.. their wasting their potential...... atleast a WH can attack with a fricken gun. 4. Don't blame another classes one strong point... cause you can't handle your class... cause reading some peoples posts. Some of you forget this a team game.... not a "it's all bout me" game like WoW. 5. I'm a BlackGuard.... so save your immature "Your just a fricken WE" crap. Granted i play on the same team as WE... but those goddamn WH and WL can cause alot of fricken headaches themselfs.
WL have nothing to do with this debate. This debate is about whether the WH and WE - which are designed to do the same job - are comparable.
They are not, and no one in this thread has shown ANY reasonable proof as to why they are. All the reasoned debate has come from the original link, and NONE of his intelligent comparison has been refuted.
Not one poster has tried to argue a single point he has made, with a reasoned counter argument. Why? Because they can't.
Look man, my Swordmaster can't kill sh*** in a normal RvR situation. I'm survivable but it isn't my job to kill people. What I do is I snare, knockback, debuff and generally interrupt opponents so my DPS mates can kill them. I haven't played a healer above T2 (just entering T3 with my RP) so I can't really speak for the healers. What I do know, as a tank, is that if there are WEs around the only thing I need to do is knock back that WE when it materializes near my healer and it is DEAD. Its existence depends on whether I'm going to knock it back so my healer has the time to get away. If the healer does get away then the WE is DEAD - and it didn't do anything. Just wasted its life for nothing. And I'm telling this from a T4 tank perspecitive - if I'm close enough and I notice what's going on then I will save that healer, no question about it. The WE will die and we will win. If I make a mistake and the healer dies then I will die as well eventually. You will have to agree that WE's life is a pretty precarious one to lead. WEs are very strong in DPS but they are extremely vulnerable - imo this is exactly what makes the game challenging and fun for me - classes have strong advantages and weaknesses so they NEED to work together. For example: I don't get satisfaction out of killing opponents - as a tank I consider my job well done when I foil all of enemies' plans - protect my healers and punch through their lines. If you want to play a high survivability class then you have to trade it off with something - in my case extremely weak dps and no healing.
And do you think it is reasonable to have a tank constantly watching over a healer just so he can stay alive? Is that fun for that tank do you think? And I mean constantly because as a tank you have maybe 5-6 seconds to save that caster/healer before he dies to the insande DPS of a WE (we are talking in the range of 500 DPS ).
And ofcourse the life of a WE is precarious, he stealths past all enemies and goes right into the core of the enemy group. Any class that does that need to die quick otherwise there wont be any point in trying to hold a line with nukers/healers at the back and tanks at the front.
Also you keep saying they need to work together. I totally agree with that and as a Zealot I need to depend on my team mates to get people of me so I can heal because if a WH attacks me I need to focus on my own survival and cant support my team and if my team mates dont help me then I sometimes die or they die because I cant heal them. That is how it should work.
However as a healer on the Order side that is not really possible because the WE dps is so insane that there is no healing/protecting yourself and by the time my time mates get her of me I am usually already dead. They basically have to stand watch over me for me to survive (which Destruction side does not need to do) and that is imbalanced.
WL have nothing to do with this debate. This debate is about whether the WH and WE - which are designed to do the same job - are comparable. They are not, and no one in this thread has shown ANY reasonable proof as to why they are. All the reasoned debate has come from the original link, and NONE of his intelligent comparison has been refuted. Not one poster has tried to argue a single point he has made, with a reasoned counter argument. Why? Because they can't.
Ofcourse they cant. Just try playing a healer/caster and you can witness yourself the insane, unrivaled DPS they are dishing out, that is not debatable. That is a fact.
The question is should they be like this or be more like the WH? I definetely think that if this game is ever going to be balanced the WE must be toned down to similar levels as the WH (which seem to do fine btw).
If not people will not be playing healers because it is no fun to be repeteadly insta killed unless you have a bunch of body guards around you, constantly watchin over you.
1. Witch Elfs work as intented, so did bright wizards... but enough destruction players QQ, and they got nerfed. 2. If your fricken sick of dying to a W/E... disown your party... or just roll a different class like a tank. 3. Cause at the end of the day... W/E have crap survivability... their insane dmg... more enough makes up for them having to sneak behind enemy lines.. attack the healers/caster, while worrying to death... that a WL or WH.... or some other class will own them in mere seconds. They serve no other purpose... if they stand back and do nothing.. their wasting their potential...... atleast a WH can attack with a fricken gun. 4. Don't blame another classes one strong point... cause you can't handle your class... cause reading some peoples posts. Some of you forget this a team game.... not a "it's all bout me" game like WoW. 5. I'm a BlackGuard.... so save your immature "Your just a fricken WE" crap. Granted i play on the same team as WE... but those goddamn WH and WL can cause alot of fricken headaches themselfs.
Regarding point 2. What a load of crap.
A WE can kill ANY class 1v1, even tanks. I play a WE for kicks and there isn't a single class i cannot beat 1v1, it's VERY easy. I also play a WH and can do exactly the same to ANY destro class, but NOT as effectively and not with the same speed and certainty that i will win almost every time.
Regarding point 3. What a load of crap.
WE's are a LOT tougher than you think, they are most certainly NOT glass cannons if equipped and specced correctly. Mine is specced high in toughness and has excellent resists and secondary stats, I can take it and dish it out, no problem.
Regarding point 5. Well, sums up why you have no idea what you are talking about in points 1-4.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
The thing the OP is missing, is that the game isn't balanced around direct comparisons of class vs. class, but realm vs. realm. This isn't a game balanced around the idea that one class has a direct counterpart on the opposing side, but whether the class fits in well with the teammates around them or being supported by them. They have similar functions, but they are by no means equal, nor or they meant to be.
The thing the OP is missing, is that the game isn't balanced around direct comparisons of class vs. class, but realm vs. realm. This isn't a game balanced around the idea that one class has a direct counterpart on the opposing side, but whether the class fits in well with the teammates around them or being supported by them. They have similar functions, but they are by no means equal, nor or they meant to be.
This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
The thing the OP is missing, is that the game isn't balanced around direct comparisons of class vs. class, but realm vs. realm. This isn't a game balanced around the idea that one class has a direct counterpart on the opposing side, but whether the class fits in well with the teammates around them or being supported by them. They have similar functions, but they are by no means equal, nor or they meant to be.
This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
Where do you get this concept of "insta-kill"? There's is no single NPC or PC with full amount of health at equal ranks which can be "insta-killed". If you want your point to get through then stop exaggerating and provide proof, graphical and mathematical, where a single WE kills someone who doesn't have any chance of survival.
A word of advice: Most of the time I have stealth-attacked a RP/AM who is standing still he doesn't realise he has been attacked until he's down to 2/3 health. At this time I have laid various debuffs upon him and if he tries to run away he will die, unless he's healed by another healer then mark my words, he will die every time if I don't get knockbacked/stunned. This is because of abilites that will do serious damage everytime he moves an inch, and the positional attacks which ignores all armor. This isn't proof of OP though since it can be avoided. The smart healers who don't move, they live almost every time.
The thing the OP is missing, is that the game isn't balanced around direct comparisons of class vs. class, but realm vs. realm. This isn't a game balanced around the idea that one class has a direct counterpart on the opposing side, but whether the class fits in well with the teammates around them or being supported by them. They have similar functions, but they are by no means equal, nor or they meant to be.
This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
Where do you get this concept of "insta-kill"? There's is no single NPC or PC with full amount of health at equal ranks which can be "insta-killed". If you want your point to get through then stop exaggerating and provide proof, graphical and mathematical, where a single WE kills someone who doesn't have any chance of survival.
A word of advice: Most of the time I have stealth-attacked a RP/AM who is standing still he doesn't realise he has been attacked until he's down to 2/3 health. At this time I have laid various debuffs upon him and if he tries to run away he will die, unless he's healed by another healer then mark my words, he will die every time if I don't get knockbacked/stunned. This is because of abilites that will do serious damage everytime he moves an inch, and the positional attacks which ignores all armor. This isn't proof of OP though since it can be avoided. The smart healers who don't move, they live almost every time.
I have in a previous post made an example of what I mean with an insta kill. I can bring it up again. My Archmage has aprox 2500 hp and when I get attacked by an equal rank WE, or slightly higher, he takes me down in a matter of seconds, around 5-6. Now this is after I have used my specced absorb shield (about 500 absorb) and put both my heals over time on which heals me for aprox another 3-400 hp before I die.
If you do the math that is about 3300+ hp that the WE chews through in the specified time period. Dividing the hp with the time gives aprox 500 DPS and this is at rank 20. Cant imagine what kind of DPS they dish out at rank 30-40.
Now if you find this reasonable then fine. So you shouldnt then object if they buff the WH to do comparable damage then right?
Actually I would because I dont believe having super DPS stealth classes that can solo outdamage a healer has any place in an MMORPG because it is simply not fun being being insta-killed by a kamikaze class and it will lead (and has already) to people not wanting to play healer classes and that is bad for everyone.
I have in a previous post made an example of what I mean with an insta kill. I can bring it up again. My Archmage has aprox 2500 hp and when I get attacked by an equal rank WE, or slightly higher, he takes me down in a matter of seconds, around 5-6. Now this is after I have used my specced absorb shield (about 500 absorb) and put both my heals over time on which heals me for aprox another 3-400 hp before I die.
If you do the math that is about 3300+ hp that the WE chews through in the specified time period. Dividing the hp with the time gives aprox 500 DPS and this is at rank 20. Cant imagine what kind of DPS they dish out at rank 30-40.
Now if you find this reasonable then fine. So you shouldnt then object if they buff the WH to do comparable damage then right?
Actually I would because I dont believe having super DPS stealth classes that can solo outdamage a healer has any place in an MMORPG because it is simply not fun being being insta-killed by a kamikaze class and it will lead (and has already) to people not wanting to play healer classes and that is bad for everyone.
The fact that they "solo outdamage" a healer is intended, that's what they are for. I haven't played my zealot alt past T2 but a WH can kill me 1v1.
I admit that I might not have read your other posts properly as I see now that I have misunderstood you somewhat. You see, I didn't realise you haven't been past T2 yet. When I was playing in T2 I specced only for strength and weapon skill, with strenght as priority. I could as you said very easily kill a healer or BW. This was before the 1.1 patch and killing BW's was very easy if it wasn't for their snare. I don't think for a second that made me overpowered, BW's are meant to dish out great damage but not to take any. Healers however were fairly easy too if not in Mourkain temple. But in my experience it wasn't as much as we WE were overpowered as healers were simply not strong enough. Later on healers get various defense abilities (I.E. AOE knockback) aswell as better healing capabilities, you will still be killed 1v1 but smart healers can survive when close to a groupmate.
As for T4 in general I think it's pretty balanced and healers have good survivability. Now if you had played engineer in T4 then you would really complain, if it wasn't for their turrets and and mines they would be walking corpses, at least 1v1.
I've never played a witch elf myself but I do have a witch hunter and while the WE's melee DPS is superior it doesn't mean they're OP'd or out of balance with the WH. The WH has range and melee abilities. A proper use of the WH's skills puts them pretty close to on par with the WE's. Infact the only time I've ever lost a head on battle with one is if I"m DOT'd or already injured.
WH/WE prey on the weakened and the clothies. Though with the right combination of skills and back up from atleast one team mate I can usually take down a tank or two as well. People who die 'alot' as either class dont know what the hell they're doing. I've gone entire scenarios and even large battles over a BO without ever dying. I made sure not to go out of view if the healers (big mistake on many noobs I see lately) and if I can I focus on targets that the rest of the team plans to focus on.
Sometimse the best choice for your whole team's survivability is to sacrifice yourself to take down a healer but other than that if you stay back and let the chaos begin you can slip in stealthed or even unstealthed and wreak havoc before they have a chance to nuke or dot you to death.
All this talk about the WE is OP'd blabbity blah..well to be honest if they are..so are the Witch Hunters because they both can put out alot of damage and fast...and the witch hunters have an added bonus of still being able to shoot you even if you run away.
The Classes are not supposed to be 100 percent perfect reflections of each other.
Well we can discuss this thing around for ages but the fact remains that WE kills fast, much faster than anything else and so fast that they basically have a free kill on healers/clothies (no matter what they do) so right now I am shelving my Archmage until the devs realise that it is no fun to be killed over and over and over again without, short of being surrounded by body guards, do anything about it.
It is simply not fun and with less healers around it will be less fun for others as well. Atleast for Order, because I will still play my Zealot because even though WH bothers me they dont have this over powered ability to be able to kill me in 4-5 seconds. And I am pretty sure that more (ex) Order healers think like this and having less healers around will be an imbalance.
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.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
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.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
WTF is "u" and "ur" "uve" Is this leet speak? Lots of periods in there and no...capitals. Learn to Read , you know and write. I think they teach that shit in fucking grade school.
Translation: Fukn Lrn2read and right, Ur edumication iz showing. W/E Rulz and takz skilZ
Sorry...
Sick of the I-pod generation educated through cell phone text. /end rant.
On topic. W/E's are fine, (imo), thier carnage tree is a bit out of sync with their mirror but all in all rogues always are a pain in the ass no matter what. On the record I have played one to 32 but got bored with it. I like my Warrior Priest and DoK to much. Playing a WP might be why they don't bother me to much. I have heard the argumnet both ways about W/E's but for me they just don't seem that difficult.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart..
Fungerer som det skal
Please tell me this a joke post?
You've already done over 4k damage to 'Niceshot' with Enfeebling Strike and Ruthless Strike - my guess is in less than 3 secs, but you don't timestamp so that's an educated guess.
You then got raped by 2 of his team mates whilst you were in full view - so?
The target you chose - Niceshot - is already dead. Thank you for further proving how OP your class is.
Don't bother presenting any more 'evidence' unless it's in your favour, is my advice to you
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
Well my experience was with that of an Archmage, if you say a Rune Priest can survive the 500 or so DPS that the WE dish out then I cant object to that since I have never played one but an Archmage cannot heal a tank for 500 DPS, even less so himself and if an Archmage cannot survive longer than a few seconds then for sure other casters (beside Rune Priest) cannot either.
And it does not matter how much team play you have because I do not consider having a personal body guard(s) to watch over you at all time as being team play. Granted casters should be at a disadvantage against high DPS classes but to have no chance at all, despite how skillfull you are? That is just flawed game design.
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I can't speak for T3 or T4 yet, as I just started my WH two days ago, already rank 17.
I do know that if the rest of my team isn't completely stupid in a SC, I can easily top of damage done and killing blows, beating plenty of WEs, even rank 21 ones.
It is rare to find a team that is good though, most try to solo and split up, or have no healers.
.. and this is exactly what makes them so fun to play and so special. Each engagement is basically a potential suicide mission - choose wisely your targets, it's the greater part of your player skill.
If you want to play an in-your-face assault melee DPS then roll a Marauder or White Lion... or wait for those last two missing classes.
WEs and WHs are great at what they're supposed to be - sneaky infiltrators waiting for the right moment to pounce, come what may. They kill off weaklings - squishies and low hp toons in general if they're dumb enough to loose their support. I wouldn't have them any other way.
Yeah, fun for WE/WH that can kill virtually anyone they want (short of tanks). It is not fun for us healers/nukers that can basically just give up if you decide to attack us because we die no matter what.
To have a class that has a "I win" button against any other class is a major design flaw. And for us having to surround us by body guards just to be able to survive a WE attack is ludicrous. What person in the right mind would want to hang around a healer/nuker all the time just in case a WE might attack them. How fun is that for them?
Witch Elves are fun for the ones playing them but a scourge for anyone else and I am sure alot of healers/nukers have stopped playing because they are being insta killed by them.
Let me tell you how a typical scenario with With Elves work for my Archmage right now: I heal, nuke and support my team as usual. A WE decide that it is my time to die, he attacks, I die no matter what. Even though I am close to my team I die because they kill me so fast that only a Rune Priest that can act quick enough can save me. They usually die afterwards but that does not help much. Our team lost a healer and will be suffering alot from it, they still have their healer.
PS: Granted this is at T2 but I heard that WE scale even more at higher Tiers so then they prolly can kill me even faster. Oh joy, isnt that fun?
Ok, I have a Runepriest in T2 and here's my experience with WEs.
If they're good and they jump me at an inopportune moment (I'm down on hp or I get a bit further away from the group) I don't have a chance in hell. On the other hand if I have enough hp to begin with and immediately start casting heals, bubbles detaunts and begin moving towards my group walking BACKWARDS so I never turn my back on the WE (DO NOT turn your back towards WE) I have a very good chance of surviving - not "winning" mind you, but surviving long enough for someone to take notice and deal with the threat.
No, as a healer or ranged dps you can't "win" against WE in close combat - and that's how it should be. What you can do is survive long enough for help to arrive - teamplay is 90% of this game. Personally I find tanks much much more annoying - one good tank knocking me around and debuffing can completely disrupt my heals and when all my mates drop I'm left alone to face the music.
What can be extremely annoying with WEs is when they run in coordinated packs. That's hugely dangerous because what they attack is dead within seconds - the only solution is to play hard defense - each healer with a pet tank, preferably a SM that can aoe knockback those killer teams. In fact knockback is the bane of Witch Elves - once you get them in range they become paper tigers. However WE heavy teams (I'm talking about scenarios here) pay this by having less other archetypes and tend to spend a lot of time running from gys.
The thing is that WEs are a class with very pronounced strengths and weaknesses and that is precisely why they're fun. Just like Bright WIzards were before that godawful nerf. Huge DPS balanced with terrible squishiness. My wife is completely broken-hearted over this BW nerf - she refuses to play her main anymore because it feels boring and pointless to what it was before. The essence of the class was that it was a "suicide" class - you know you are the prime target in any engagement and you know you are going to die very fast - your strategy is to give as good as account of yourself as possible before the inevitable happens. BWs (and I suppose WEs now) spent the most time of all classes running from graveyards and lying dead somewhere. This has to be countered with something and that is burst dps. If they nerf that burst dps and counter it with slightly increased survivability (what they did to BWs) they will turn one of the most fun and exciting classes both to play and to fight against into a meh "i do some damage" one.
Just look on WHA boards - even the staunchest "nerf BWs" people now admit that they may have been wrong and that they want back their old BWs that they've grown to love to hate. I really wouldn't want this to happen to WEs - a slight boost to Witch Hunters to compensate would be quite enough for things to be fully balanced. I say a slight buff because WHs do have a bit more survivability - they can run away more easily after a kill. WEs can't and since each of their "missions" is a a suicide one they do need that DPS to make it all worthwhile.
Well my experience was with that of an Archmage, if you say a Rune Priest can survive the 500 or so DPS that the WE dish out then I cant object to that since I have never played one but an Archmage cannot heal a tank for 500 DPS, even less so himself and if an Archmage cannot survive longer than a few seconds then for sure other casters (beside Rune Priest) cannot either.
And it does not matter how much team play you have because I do not consider having a personal body guard(s) to watch over you at all time as being team play. Granted casters should be at a disadvantage against high DPS classes but to have no chance at all, despite how skillfull you are? That is just flawed game design.
The point is that you can survive long enough. A healer can never hold on indefinitely against a melee dps and winning a 1v1 is completely impossible - and that's just what it is supposed to be like.
Melee DPS and especially stealther ones (as opposed to assaults) are specifically designed to kill healers and squishies. This is their reason for existence. I mentioned I play a tank (Swordmaster) at T4 as well... I simply cannot win against a healer in 1v1 - it slowly melts me down like I was a snowman, constantly healing itself. On the other hand I kill WEs without breaking a sweat or feeling threatened (unless they jump me at less than 50% hp and away from a healer). If the area is crawling with WEs then the team needs to adapt - tanks should go defense and you'll see those WE's breaking like waves on inmovable rocks. Just turtle up a bit and push forward. More WEs means less other classes - they could be weak on their own healers or tanks... which is much much worse than being short on melee dps.
The game is intentionally made rock-paper-scissors. If you're looking for 1v1 balance then look somewhere else because you'll be sorely disappointed with WAR. The way the classes are designed FORCES them to work together - teamplay is GOD in this game. I'd say that in a scenario 80% is teamplay and 20% individual skill (1v1), gear etc. Even group composition isn't as important as it might seem at a first glance.
Heh on my server there was a temporary shortage of T4 order healers. I was dumb-struck when I saw a couple of wins in Serpents Passage where order had NO healers at all - just pure teamplay and knowledge of class synergies. For example your AM does spirit damage.. When you see a Swordmaster doing its AoE that means that all the enemies in vicinity just took a massive temporary debuff to their spirit res - this is the moment to fire off that instant nuke you've been building up through healing.
Aditionally a healer should NEVER be alone. If you're looking for a more solo class that can survive a lot then roll a tank and spec it for dps - you migh not have a chance against your nemesis (healers in this case) but at least you'll have a bag of tricks that'll enable you to run away... even though one of tanks roles IS making a noble sacrafice to tie down as many enemies as possible and give their team enough time to do their job.
Please tell me this a joke post?
You've already done over 4k damage to 'Niceshot' with Enfeebling Strike and Ruthless Strike - my guess is in less than 3 secs, but you don't timestamp so that's an educated guess.
You then got raped by 2 of his team mates whilst you were in full view - so?
The target you chose - Niceshot - is already dead. Thank you for further proving how OP your class is.
Don't bother presenting any more 'evidence' unless it's in your favour, is my advice to you
correct i have made the mistake of presenting this without timestamps, i fail on that note, but the battle with niceshot was over way before i attacked ako, i was only being attacked by ako and bife oh and if u look up niceshot he was only rank 32 and running away the whole time i had e/s on him, he killed himself unfortunately. so 40 vs 32 of course im OP.
1. Witch Elfs work as intented, so did bright wizards... but enough destruction players QQ, and they got nerfed.
2. If your fricken sick of dying to a W/E... disown your party... or just roll a different class like a tank.
3. Cause at the end of the day... W/E have crap survivability... their insane dmg... more enough makes up for them having to sneak behind enemy lines.. attack the healers/caster, while worrying to death... that a WL or WH.... or some other class will own them in mere seconds. They serve no other purpose... if they stand back and do nothing.. their wasting their potential...... atleast a WH can attack with a fricken gun.
4. Don't blame another classes one strong point... cause you can't handle your class... cause reading some peoples posts. Some of you forget this a team game.... not a "it's all bout me" game like WoW.
5. I'm a BlackGuard.... so save your immature "Your just a fricken WE" crap. Granted i play on the same team as WE... but those goddamn WH and WL can cause alot of fricken headaches themselfs.
Have you even read my post? No you cannot survive long enough against a WE because their DPS is far higher than any healing capability and far higher than any other class, including WHs. The exception is if you are surrounded by a bunch of body guards and I feel that is an unreasonable requirement to survive as a healer.
Healers must have high survivability otherwise noone will play them. The reason is that this is an RvR type game (dont know why you claim I think it is 1v1) and that means that any team with even half intelligent people will go straight for the healers and if the healer cannot stay alive he will always die.
Right now healers have a decent surviviability so thats really not a huge issue with the sole exception of WE. They have such an insane DPS that you survive maybe a few seconds before you go down. Now that is unreasonable and need to be fixed. You yourself have said that there are lack of healers. Why do you think that is? Do you think it is fun to play a class that is automatically killed in the start of a battle because there is one class that has a "I win" button against you no matter how skilled they are?
No it isnt, so they reroll something like a Swordmaster so they can influence how well they do in battle with their SKILLS not some simplistic rock, paper and scissor system that doesnt belong in something as complex as a MMORPG with dozens of classes and houndreds of different factors. In rock, paper, scissors system there are three factors, thats it, thats why it is illogical to apply it here.
Your comparison between a Swordmaster and a healer is not valid because you can still SURVIVE against a healer. A healer cant do shit against a WE unless we have an army of body guards, now that is not team play, that is unreasonable.
But if you still insist that WE should be this insane DPS character then I have a question. If destruction has a class that can auto-kill healers/casters then why doesnt order have it? I have a T2 zealot as well and WH are not a non factor but still survivable as I can often heal/protect myself through their attacks because their DPS is nowhere near that of a WE. So is this another design by choice or can it simply be that WE are somewhat imbalanced when even their Order "mirror" class barely does half their DPS?
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Look man, my Swordmaster can't kill sh*** in a normal RvR situation. I'm survivable but it isn't my job to kill people. What I do is I snare, knockback, debuff and generally interrupt opponents so my DPS mates can kill them.
I haven't played a healer above T2 (just entering T3 with my RP) so I can't really speak for the healers. What I do know, as a tank, is that if there are WEs around the only thing I need to do is knock back that WE when it materializes near my healer and it is DEAD. Its existence depends on whether I'm going to knock it back so my healer has the time to get away. If the healer does get away then the WE is DEAD - and it didn't do anything. Just wasted its life for nothing. And I'm telling this from a T4 tank perspecitive - if I'm close enough and I notice what's going on then I will save that healer, no question about it. The WE will die and we will win. If I make a mistake and the healer dies then I will die as well eventually.
You will have to agree that WE's life is a pretty precarious one to lead. WEs are very strong in DPS but they are extremely vulnerable - imo this is exactly what makes the game challenging and fun for me - classes have strong advantages and weaknesses so they NEED to work together. For example: I don't get satisfaction out of killing opponents - as a tank I consider my job well done when I foil all of enemies' plans - protect my healers and punch through their lines. If you want to play a high survivability class then you have to trade it off with something - in my case extremely weak dps and no healing.
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Healers must have high survivability otherwise noone will play them. The reason is that this is an RvR type game (dont know why you claim I think it is 1v1) and that means that any team with even half intelligent people will go straight for the healers and if the healer cannot stay alive he will always die.
...That just might be the smartest thing I ever seen in these forums.
props to u sir, i played a sp today, absolutely no healers and we won, u know why, cause we had some awesome tanks... everyone cries about there class and never really tries to learn how to play it.
props to u sir, i played a sp today, absolutely no healers and we won, u know why, cause we had some awesome tanks... everyone cries about there class and never really tries to learn how to play it.
Another ludicrous generalisation.
WL have nothing to do with this debate. This debate is about whether the WH and WE - which are designed to do the same job - are comparable.
They are not, and no one in this thread has shown ANY reasonable proof as to why they are. All the reasoned debate has come from the original link, and NONE of his intelligent comparison has been refuted.
Not one poster has tried to argue a single point he has made, with a reasoned counter argument. Why? Because they can't.
And do you think it is reasonable to have a tank constantly watching over a healer just so he can stay alive? Is that fun for that tank do you think? And I mean constantly because as a tank you have maybe 5-6 seconds to save that caster/healer before he dies to the insande DPS of a WE (we are talking in the range of 500 DPS
).
And ofcourse the life of a WE is precarious, he stealths past all enemies and goes right into the core of the enemy group. Any class that does that need to die quick otherwise there wont be any point in trying to hold a line with nukers/healers at the back and tanks at the front.
Also you keep saying they need to work together. I totally agree with that and as a Zealot I need to depend on my team mates to get people of me so I can heal because if a WH attacks me I need to focus on my own survival and cant support my team and if my team mates dont help me then I sometimes die or they die because I cant heal them. That is how it should work.
However as a healer on the Order side that is not really possible because the WE dps is so insane that there is no healing/protecting yourself and by the time my time mates get her of me I am usually already dead. They basically have to stand watch over me for me to survive (which Destruction side does not need to do) and that is imbalanced.
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Ofcourse they cant. Just try playing a healer/caster and you can witness yourself the insane, unrivaled DPS they are dishing out, that is not debatable. That is a fact.
The question is should they be like this or be more like the WH? I definetely think that if this game is ever going to be balanced the WE must be toned down to similar levels as the WH (which seem to do fine btw).
If not people will not be playing healers because it is no fun to be repeteadly insta killed unless you have a bunch of body guards around you, constantly watchin over you.
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Regarding point 2. What a load of crap.
A WE can kill ANY class 1v1, even tanks. I play a WE for kicks and there isn't a single class i cannot beat 1v1, it's VERY easy. I also play a WH and can do exactly the same to ANY destro class, but NOT as effectively and not with the same speed and certainty that i will win almost every time.
Regarding point 3. What a load of crap.
WE's are a LOT tougher than you think, they are most certainly NOT glass cannons if equipped and specced correctly. Mine is specced high in toughness and has excellent resists and secondary stats, I can take it and dish it out, no problem.
Regarding point 5. Well, sums up why you have no idea what you are talking about in points 1-4.
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The thing the OP is missing, is that the game isn't balanced around direct comparisons of class vs. class, but realm vs. realm. This isn't a game balanced around the idea that one class has a direct counterpart on the opposing side, but whether the class fits in well with the teammates around them or being supported by them. They have similar functions, but they are by no means equal, nor or they meant to be.
This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
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This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
Where do you get this concept of "insta-kill"? There's is no single NPC or PC with full amount of health at equal ranks which can be "insta-killed". If you want your point to get through then stop exaggerating and provide proof, graphical and mathematical, where a single WE kills someone who doesn't have any chance of survival.
A word of advice: Most of the time I have stealth-attacked a RP/AM who is standing still he doesn't realise he has been attacked until he's down to 2/3 health. At this time I have laid various debuffs upon him and if he tries to run away he will die, unless he's healed by another healer then mark my words, he will die every time if I don't get knockbacked/stunned. This is because of abilites that will do serious damage everytime he moves an inch, and the positional attacks which ignores all armor. This isn't proof of OP though since it can be avoided. The smart healers who don't move, they live almost every time.
This makes no sense what so ever. It is realm vs realm correct but they need to be balanced. If one of the sides have this super DPS wolverine/superman character that can kill anything in a few seconds and the other does not then it is imbalanced.
To be more specific. If one side has a class that has a insta-kill ability on healers and the other does not then it is imbalanced. Unless ofcourse the other side has some other major advantage. Do they?
Where do you get this concept of "insta-kill"? There's is no single NPC or PC with full amount of health at equal ranks which can be "insta-killed". If you want your point to get through then stop exaggerating and provide proof, graphical and mathematical, where a single WE kills someone who doesn't have any chance of survival.
A word of advice: Most of the time I have stealth-attacked a RP/AM who is standing still he doesn't realise he has been attacked until he's down to 2/3 health. At this time I have laid various debuffs upon him and if he tries to run away he will die, unless he's healed by another healer then mark my words, he will die every time if I don't get knockbacked/stunned. This is because of abilites that will do serious damage everytime he moves an inch, and the positional attacks which ignores all armor. This isn't proof of OP though since it can be avoided. The smart healers who don't move, they live almost every time.
I have in a previous post made an example of what I mean with an insta kill. I can bring it up again. My Archmage has aprox 2500 hp and when I get attacked by an equal rank WE, or slightly higher, he takes me down in a matter of seconds, around 5-6. Now this is after I have used my specced absorb shield (about 500 absorb) and put both my heals over time on which heals me for aprox another 3-400 hp before I die.
If you do the math that is about 3300+ hp that the WE chews through in the specified time period. Dividing the hp with the time gives aprox 500 DPS and this is at rank 20. Cant imagine what kind of DPS they dish out at rank 30-40.
Now if you find this reasonable then fine. So you shouldnt then object if they buff the WH to do comparable damage then right?
Actually I would because I dont believe having super DPS stealth classes that can solo outdamage a healer has any place in an MMORPG because it is simply not fun being being insta-killed by a kamikaze class and it will lead (and has already) to people not wanting to play healer classes and that is bad for everyone.
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I have in a previous post made an example of what I mean with an insta kill. I can bring it up again. My Archmage has aprox 2500 hp and when I get attacked by an equal rank WE, or slightly higher, he takes me down in a matter of seconds, around 5-6. Now this is after I have used my specced absorb shield (about 500 absorb) and put both my heals over time on which heals me for aprox another 3-400 hp before I die.
If you do the math that is about 3300+ hp that the WE chews through in the specified time period. Dividing the hp with the time gives aprox 500 DPS and this is at rank 20. Cant imagine what kind of DPS they dish out at rank 30-40.
Now if you find this reasonable then fine. So you shouldnt then object if they buff the WH to do comparable damage then right?
Actually I would because I dont believe having super DPS stealth classes that can solo outdamage a healer has any place in an MMORPG because it is simply not fun being being insta-killed by a kamikaze class and it will lead (and has already) to people not wanting to play healer classes and that is bad for everyone.
The fact that they "solo outdamage" a healer is intended, that's what they are for. I haven't played my zealot alt past T2 but a WH can kill me 1v1.
I admit that I might not have read your other posts properly as I see now that I have misunderstood you somewhat. You see, I didn't realise you haven't been past T2 yet. When I was playing in T2 I specced only for strength and weapon skill, with strenght as priority. I could as you said very easily kill a healer or BW. This was before the 1.1 patch and killing BW's was very easy if it wasn't for their snare. I don't think for a second that made me overpowered, BW's are meant to dish out great damage but not to take any. Healers however were fairly easy too if not in Mourkain temple. But in my experience it wasn't as much as we WE were overpowered as healers were simply not strong enough. Later on healers get various defense abilities (I.E. AOE knockback) aswell as better healing capabilities, you will still be killed 1v1 but smart healers can survive when close to a groupmate.
As for T4 in general I think it's pretty balanced and healers have good survivability. Now if you had played engineer in T4 then you would really complain, if it wasn't for their turrets and and mines they would be walking corpses, at least 1v1.
I've never played a witch elf myself but I do have a witch hunter and while the WE's melee DPS is superior it doesn't mean they're OP'd or out of balance with the WH. The WH has range and melee abilities. A proper use of the WH's skills puts them pretty close to on par with the WE's. Infact the only time I've ever lost a head on battle with one is if I"m DOT'd or already injured.
WH/WE prey on the weakened and the clothies. Though with the right combination of skills and back up from atleast one team mate I can usually take down a tank or two as well. People who die 'alot' as either class dont know what the hell they're doing. I've gone entire scenarios and even large battles over a BO without ever dying. I made sure not to go out of view if the healers (big mistake on many noobs I see lately) and if I can I focus on targets that the rest of the team plans to focus on.
Sometimse the best choice for your whole team's survivability is to sacrifice yourself to take down a healer but other than that if you stay back and let the chaos begin you can slip in stealthed or even unstealthed and wreak havoc before they have a chance to nuke or dot you to death.
All this talk about the WE is OP'd blabbity blah..well to be honest if they are..so are the Witch Hunters because they both can put out alot of damage and fast...and the witch hunters have an added bonus of still being able to shoot you even if you run away.
The Classes are not supposed to be 100 percent perfect reflections of each other.
Well we can discuss this thing around for ages but the fact remains that WE kills fast, much faster than anything else and so fast that they basically have a free kill on healers/clothies (no matter what they do) so right now I am shelving my Archmage until the devs realise that it is no fun to be killed over and over and over again without, short of being surrounded by body guards, do anything about it.
It is simply not fun and with less healers around it will be less fun for others as well. Atleast for Order, because I will still play my Zealot because even though WH bothers me they dont have this over powered ability to be able to kill me in 4-5 seconds. And I am pretty sure that more (ex) Order healers think like this and having less healers around will be an imbalance.
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