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I hope they ditch the whole tank/dps/healer system
Ordero
Member Posts: 86
Don't wanna play another "tank and spank"-MMO thank you very much, it makes sense in a high fantasy-type of game maybe, but in a Star Wars-setting the classic "tank"-archetype wouldn't really make much sense so I really hope they ditch the whole tank/dps/healer-system and come up with other ways to make questing and killing in groups interesting and dynamic. If they do all of that, then I might be tempted to give this game a go 
Comments
The Healer/Tank/DPS setup is known as the MMO Holy Trinity and has endured for a reason; because it works well and there are no real alternatives to group-vs-boss PVE gameplay.
I suppose you could possibly do away with "bosses" that need to be tanked and have all fights be group-vs-group; i.e. instead of having 1 "boss" Dark Jedi to kill, you have a squad of 20 Stormtroopers; I know I wouldn't fancy trying to keep alive a half-dozen ballistic DPSmonkeys
There have been games out there that have designed "combat healers" that heal passively as they fight, reducing the "healbot" effect to virtual non-existance.
I wouldn't get your hopes up though; the Holy Trinity is still the preferred method for PVE gaming and is almost certainly going to represented in TOR somehow.
For my part, I hope they make the "tanking" focus on avoidance rather than mitigation; I really detest the thought of stabbing "a boss" through the chest with a lightsaber and them only losing 1% of their life.
Sadly, immersion often has to sacrificed for the sake of basic gameplay sometimes.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I would like Hybrids with a choice of what you wanted to do like if all the classes were Druid from WoW.
I'd really like to see healing tied into equipment...say for an example as a soldier or engineer type character you'd pretty much expect to have a suit, be it armour or utility suit. Classic example would be something like Bobba and Jango's Mando suits.
Now those suits didn't come like that off the peg. They were modified and had all kinds of gadgetry hidden away.
So, what I'd love to be able to do is buy an armour suit chassis with the basic protection on it with a series of slots for different hardware...a bio-monitor/bacta injector for self-healing, sealed joints to give chemical/radiation/environmental protection, targettting computer to aid in ranged combat etc etc...however, each chassis only has a certain amount of slots for these addons...much like gem sockets in WoW or talisman slots in WAR...the number of slots would then vary with the quality and rarity of the chassis.
Kind of wandered from the path a bit there but I think you get what I'm aiming for.
Agree with the OP completely. Archetypal gaming is a dinosaur notion that has long since run it's course. If it still exists today it's simply because true inovation is rare and development houses (and their financeers) are afraid to step outside the box.
If this game includes a "taunt" agro tool I can honestly say without a hint of hyperbole or melodrama that I will not be playing it.
As far as I know Stargate worlds isn't having a tank/dps/healer system
Sounds cool.
couldnt agree more. i would love to see healers disappear completely. group combat would be more on what you do and less on what "classes" you have. the only reason tank/healer/dps has endured is noone has tried anything different and that is also the direct reason why most modern MMO's are falling short of expectations. nothing but reskins of old games. hopefully SW:TOR will bring something new to the way mmo's are played outside of their emphasis on story, which is most welcome btw.
Innovation in MMOs have gone out the window for several years now. Nobody's trying to do anything special or unique with their MMOs. At least with the big recognizeable titles. Everyone's so busy trying to mimic WoW and try to dethrone the reigning king like that.
Don't expect a this game to be much different. It it isn't following the standard Class+Level+Cookie Cutter Roles, then I would be very surprised.
Developers promoting their upcoming MMOs like to make out how special or unique their game will be, but when it comes down to it, they fall in the same very common category.
Innovation and differing gameplay has long been dead in MMORPGs. Some of us miss them dearly. May they RIP.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
You really make me sad with this statement. Do you really think there are no alternatives? There must be hundred of alternatives. The tank/dps/healer system is something unheard of in reallife and are artificially made to make it very simple.
The healer we can dith right away. Doctors should take care of the living, after combat. And that should be a real challence. Tank and dps are the same, who would split it? Its called a fighter, soldier, warrior. Armour for protection and weapons for damage.
I'm really hoping they do what they say and make it story / quest driven and not a "whack-a-mole" PvE game. I'm kind of tired of the go kill 10 of these and click on 12 pf those kind of quests. Strategy fighting, puzzle solving, and making your own storyline like KOTOR but in an MMO environment is what I am looking forward too.
no worries.
this is Bioware making the game. not some no name game company. Bioware is known for stories and lore etc.
the holy trinity is nothing near star wars lore, and i don't see bioware following its role.
but people speak as if theres gonna be WoW type boss's in this game, which is untrue unless bioware strays off its known projected path.
If you dont have tank/healer/dps system the only other option is to have everyone the same, every character a jack of all trades. I am a fan of the old ways..
I doubt we will see something different in this game other than choosing a pre-set class that has it's job to do.
But all I hope is that there will be enough customization within each seperate class to make them variating enough for everyones needs.
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http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
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And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Remove the mechanics of tanking/healing and you destroy tactical MMO grouping.
You made the statement "There must be hundreds of alternatives", well .. give me a couple.
Bearing in mind:
No character can be better able to withstand damage than another (as this would be a tank).
No character can restore the health of another character while in combat. (as this would be a healer)
In fact, imagine your 5 man group is comprised of 5 x Han Solo clones; wearing leather jackets and wielding blaster pistols.
How would they kill a krayt dragon?
How would they clear out a room of 50 battledroids?
And Tank/DPS are not the same thing; a fast and lightly-armoured swordsman would have the speed and mobility to cut down opponents way faster than a ponderous yet well-defended knight wearing 50lbs of steel.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I have to agree, I'd love to see a new system put into play, the holy trinity has been done and redone more than enough.
I recall Lineage 1, there was no healer class. Everyone used potions to heal themselves, however then battles sometimes came down to who could spam the strongest potions the quickest. Perhaps this wasn't a great alternative, but it was an alternative. And while they had fighter classes, with armor, you'd frequently find a Wizard's pets or even an Archer on the front lines.
Well, if anyone can come up with something new, Bioware might be the group who can do it.
But will they?
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to interject here. How would 5 Han Solo’s kill a Krayt? Well I think it’s a safe bet that one Han Solo wouldn’t call the Krayt unpleasant names and somehow magically keep it’s attention completely transfixed on the one person in the room NOT doing tons of damage to it while the other 4 shoot it down. That’s a fairly safe bet I’d think.
How about mobility? It can’t eat you if it can’t catch you right?
Setting traps? Sounds very Han Solo’ish to me.
Using long range weapons to defeat a melee monster?
How about (as the other poster said) any one of a hundred possibilities that are more complex than character x stands here and calls it names while character y instantly heals the damage to character x and characters p, e, and w all lay into it with heavy DPS. Which, somehow doesn’t manage to actually attract it’s attention even though “x” isn’t really hurting it at all.
It’s insulting to the player-base at large to just throw your hands up in the air and assume that 5 “PLAYERS” (caps for emphasis of the fact that these are living, breathing human beings hopefully above the age of 7, not shouting) can’t outthink a simple AI program. And it’s exactly that kind of simplified, feed-me-some-more-pabulum nonsense that’s the problem. Some players want easy, they want a formula that works and that they can repeat on every single spawn from 1st level to 80th or whatever. They want an “auto” button or macro that takes all interactivity out of the combat and allows you to get that fresh soda can and take a leak *WHILE* battling that Krayt dragon. Some players complain the game is too easy while trying to arrange just these scenarios of “auto-attack” godmode.
Combat should not be easy (imo), it should not be detached and uninvolved. It should be you, the player, fighting for your life.
And here’s the million dollar question; if 5 Han Solo’s did encounter a Krayt dragon.. What do they do?
What do those 5 players do when stripped of their “magic formula” for success that’s worked in a dozen games before this one?
They think.. That’s what they do. They adapt and they make NEW plans and new tactics based on what they have. Not on what they’ve always done before.
this is true bioware did say somewhere they are not planning on typical style raids because it doesn't fit with the lore to have a bunch on people wailing on one foe. PvE group dungeons will be bunches of foes most likely and smaller group pherhaps. hopefully totally unlike the typical PvE because it bores my pants off.
My blog:
I think you have it entirely backwards; you're suggesting "alternatives" without considering how they could be represented inside a game environment. MMOs are entertainment, and for them to be entertaining there needs to be more depth than "just shoot it 'til it's dead".
While I agree that it would be nice to ditch the established tank/healer/damage archetypes, I've never seen or heard of any system that could replace it while still retaining its variety and challenge.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Less complex? For my money having 4 "blasters" playing drag and bag with a Krayt dragon sounds quite involved. Perhaps you have had different experiences with the technique.
Let's examine the complexity.
Standard Tank'ing:
X taunts, Y heals, PEW shoot. Each player doing 1 thing over and over until the monster's dead.
Umm.. not trying to pick a fight (seriously not trying to) but what scenario can you imagine that is less complex than that? I mean literally, it's the absolute bottom rung of the complexity ladder, which is why it's become popular, because anyone can do it, and do it in their sleep with no thought.
It appeals to the lowest common denominator because it's simple, easily learned, easily taught and efficient. It's also COMPLETELY genre breaking in almost any type of game, utterly unrealistic and just plain silly. (Not to mention boring as heck)
Let's contrast that to my less complex suggestions.
Traps: Set up a minefield and trip-lasers, have a player lure the beast into your death trap while tossing immobilization grenades. If it doesn't kill it then you have to have the "bait" keep it busy chasing him/her while everyone else sets up for another trap. The bait is involved (obviously lol) , the people setting up and springing the trap are involved. Everyone has timing and multiple goals to accomplish.
And, this scenario can evolve on the fly into...
Drag and Bag: Everyone shoots it. Whoever it goes after is now "the bait" and *stops* shooting it and leads it away from the others (who are still shooting it) to hopefully allow the others to draw agro off of them. And when they do draw agro off the original "bait," someone else is now "the bait". Rinse and repeat. Everyone is involved, you have to react constantly to the situation, move extensively (not just stand in place pressing the 1 key because the battle is moving and shifting), and react with teamwork and tactics.
Using ranged weapons: Scope the terrain out. Is there a place you can lure the dragon to that's difficult or inaccessible to it? Then ranged weapons = win, which is exactly what Han Solo would do when faced with a challenge like that. He's not going to fight the dragon on *IT's* preferred battlefield, against *IT's* strength, he's going to use tactics and choose the time and place of his attack. He's going to lure it under that overhanging cliff face and set off his charges to bring the hillside crashing down on it's head.
The assumption that a drag and bag crew aren't monitoring their health is incorrect. It's positional teamwork, escaping when you're in trouble and allowing your team to pull it off you with "old fashioned" agro-management, DAMAGE! hehehe
As for not listing alternatives or not thinking them through, that is a very baseless accusation. I have thought it through, and have played many a game where agro management didn't exist. And I can say quite honestly that it is NOT necessary to hold the players hand to such an extent that thinking becomes superfluous.
Developers should be challenging players to think, not allowing them to have such formulaic “easy buttons” to get the job done.
And while we’re on that topic, players should get just as much experience for eluding/avoiding, trapping/fooling the dragon as they did for killing it. But that’s a rant for another day
They'll problably have hybrid types like a jedi 3 jedi areas like the guardian( Tanking) sentienal (dps perhaps?/buffs (i always used bastilla for that stuff)) consular (healing/crowd control etc). I'm more so curious of the other classes I hope theres a medic path that can do a variety of things from healing in combat to fighting to a degree and ofcourse crafting stimulants and medpacs. I figure Bounty hunters will be in this I hope that they branch that out more making a stricly bounty hunter area but also the ability for non-bounty hunters to get bounty missions ( seems to make sense to me why can't a dark jedi kill someone for some credits huh?) Next are the races humans twi'leks zabrak are probably a given as to there the most common I hope they have side paths for those like Lotr did that maybe changes things as humans can be so many things like echani or mando serraco (even though mando was basically whatever world was conqoured) basically what im getting at is the possiblities are endless with how they can do this. Most important is bioware is making it so the story will be there for sure thats there biggest attraction to the game right now is that story line aspect driven by choices that change your character forever. Since bioware is also making this game I have a good amount of faith in them they've never disappointed me with anything they've made.
Your suggestions for alternate tactics...are already in the games. I don't know if you haven't played higher level dungeons/raids, but there is a lot more than Tank'n'Spank involved usually. HOWEVER, what I dislike, is that it is basically always an established tactic. Once explored, it is basically just "learn your part" and then it's done.
It would be interesting to have mobs always react differently and employ different tactics so a group would have to think on their feet to adapt. Sadly, I don't think AI is quite ready for that.
See, even what you describe as alternatives would result in the same thing as what you complain about. A boss would be found, players would look for a tactic to beat it, that tactic would be published, others would copy it and boom...no one has to think anymore.
What we need...is more randomness in encounters.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Remove the mechanics of tanking/healing and you destroy tactical MMO grouping.
You made the statement "There must be hundreds of alternatives", well .. give me a couple.
Bearing in mind:
No character can be better able to withstand damage than another (as this would be a tank).
No character can restore the health of another character while in combat. (as this would be a healer)
In fact, imagine your 5 man group is comprised of 5 x Han Solo clones; wearing leather jackets and wielding blaster pistols.
How would they kill a krayt dragon?
How would they clear out a room of 50 battledroids?
And Tank/DPS are not the same thing; a fast and lightly-armoured swordsman would have the speed and mobility to cut down opponents way faster than a ponderous yet well-defended knight wearing 50lbs of steel.
Mankind have fought for thousands of years without the "holy trinity MMO solution". And Han Solo is a character, not a class.
But the disturbing matter in your post is that you sound to fear an alternative. You make it sound as there are no way of killing a kryat dragon with five soldiers alone. And a soldier is a "tank" and dps" in the same person.
What you need to consider is personal skill and tactics......not some holy MMO trinity. Not two persons are the same. If you have ten groups of five soldiers, every group will solve the dragon in a own way.
The only difference I can see in your post rather than tank and healing .. you replace it with someone kiting a monster where he would need no heals thus removing the need for the healer. This is a tactic used in a lot of MMORPGs already. Trapping is also used as crowd control. I know you are looking for ways to make the combat distinct from the holy trinity game play to make it more complicated but I feel you leave out the tanking and healing while leaving things in that were already in place thus making things easier.
I enjoy the tanking, healing, dpsing, crowd controlling myself. I don't want to play a pure dps game, I can't imagine how it would be more strategic, not saying it couldn't be but I can't see it.
The thing that really, REALLY bugs me about "the holy trinity" is how hard it makes it to form groups and keep groups going. When you have defined roles, you HAVE to have X amount of Y roles. You could have 4 real life friends online and ready to play, but if one isn't playing a tank, one isn't playing a healer, and 3 aren't dps, than you can't run something together. It also makes it really hard to find a group. "Hey look there are 4 people in a group that need 1 more... oh shoot I'm not the role they need". It's stupid, frustrating, and wastes time. Developers need to find a way to allow anyone, no matter their role, to play in a group together, and the outcome be dependent on how they played, not what their role was.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I fully agree to this.
But I think there can be some other ways around it. I want to put forth Final Fantasy XI as a shining example. The multi-classing was an excellent system to allow variety for players. If you were a long-term player, you could basically fulfill all roles in one character, all you had to do was to switch your classes at home before you went out hunting. That allowed for a lot more flexibility.
Of course, it would take time to get all the classes high enough, so it is not an ideal solution. But it's one of the best (regarding the quoted posters point) that I have seen in MMO's so far. ((Even SWG's skill-system or UO's doesn't compete, because you couldn't quickly switch your roles if you wanted to, you had to retrain...IIRC)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7