Not one damn bit of this matters. The NGE is dead. If LEC had any faith in SOE at all, they'd be developing the new game. They aren't. It's just here to fill a place until the new game comes out. LEC basically doesn't give a crap what SOE does with it from now until it closes (less than a year away, as evidenced by the ending of the 1 year sub option). SOE is doing what SOE does... The TCG in SWG is offering outrageous in game items (unlike the EQ one) that are unobtainable and gameplay affecting. This is THEIR cynical last ditch "grab all the cash from the suckers we can".
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
Of all the people that must understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure you're one of them Kobie lol It's hard to have a discussion when people won't admit that their information was wrong (not a lie in everycase, sometimes just an error that I've made myself). It's even harder to have a conversation with someone that knows the truth but says something misleading anyways. You just can't talk to people like that, so I've decided to focus my attention elsewhere
Now if I really put my money where my mouth is, I'll stop posting in this thread lol...Me and my higher power.
P.S. since you're in this discussion now, I almost fell out of my chair when someone said that everyone knows you're really wildcat; damn that was the funniest thing I think I've ever read on these boards.
LOL yeah, that was pretty funny.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
just my opinion by the way, but as a gamer i have been screwed over by companies for years and years, blizzard, EA, lots of others, they are always changing things, they are always having bad customer service, they are always doing something stupid.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
just my opinion by the way, but as a gamer i have been screwed over by companies for years and years, blizzard, EA, lots of others, they are always changing things, they are always having bad customer service, they are always doing something stupid.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
Are you summing up the NGE as a "chunck" of a change and comparing it to other game's revamps? /sigh
I used to play what I liked, and would still be playing it if it wasn't destroyed
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Not one damn bit of this matters. The NGE is dead. If LEC had any faith in SOE at all, they'd be developing the new game. They aren't. It's just here to fill a place until the new game comes out. LEC basically doesn't give a crap what SOE does with it from now until it closes (less than a year away, as evidenced by the ending of the 1 year sub option). SOE is doing what SOE does... The TCG in SWG is offering outrageous in game items (unlike the EQ one) that are unobtainable and gameplay affecting. This is THEIR cynical last ditch "grab all the cash from the suckers we can".
I found this on a forum awhile back now and have need of posting it somewhere appropriate cause it gives me a chuckle
Not one damn bit of this matters. The NGE is dead. If LEC had any faith in SOE at all, they'd be developing the new game. They aren't. It's just here to fill a place until the new game comes out. LEC basically doesn't give a crap what SOE does with it from now until it closes (less than a year away, as evidenced by the ending of the 1 year sub option). SOE is doing what SOE does... The TCG in SWG is offering outrageous in game items (unlike the EQ one) that are unobtainable and gameplay affecting. This is THEIR cynical last ditch "grab all the cash from the suckers we can".
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
I thought that sounded odd, especially for SOE. Knowing them, they will keep the year subscription available to purchase straight up to the day they shut the game down, and not give refunds.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
It's become obvious that some people will say, and perhaps believe, anything they like in order to try to save or protect their online happy place. Some may get paid to do it, others may be staff doing it in their spare time, and I'm sure many are just players that don't want to lose their virtual experience. I'll be honest, I didn't want to lose my virtual experience either. Who does? MMOs create emotional attachments and people get invested in their progress. Nobody wants to lose this, but would you lie to protect it? Would you say that the loot vehicles offer no advantages when information has been clearly posted saying that they do? Would you say that SOE can be counted on to listen to their players when time and time again they have failed to do so? Would you suggest that one example of listening to a players request could possibly offset all of the deceptions and broken promises of the past 5 years? Would you say that loot cards do not give player buffs? How 'bout this one: Would you be happy that SOE is squeezing large amounts of cash from fellow gamers via their TCG game of chance because it means you may get some of the content you've been hoping for? Would you pull up laws from another country to try to defend actions taking place in the United States? Would you say that the NGE and the TCG have been well received, and that it's only a vocal minority that complain about them? Some people would. Every one of these examples can be found somewhere on these boards and more. We can provide these people over and over again with factual information. We can provide quotes from devs, from Smed or from other internet sources to back it up, and it won't matter. Why not? Because the truth does not fit with their agenda. Hopefully I'll remember this and spare myself some frustration in future discussions lol; I guess we'll see .
As per your OP, I think you're right. There's lots of people on both sides of the pro/anti-SWG debate that simply refuse to see any of the points the "other side" makes as valid in any way. Those who correct factual errors (or lies), dispute anecdotal accounts, pooh-pooh assertions, or in any way disagree are pigeonholed as "pissed-off pre-CU fanbois" (by one side) or "carrying SOE's water" (by the other).
There's usually no convincing people in a debate as polarized as this one.
Regarding the TCG, my thoughts on it are well established. Do I mind its existence? No. Do I mind loot items that are purely cosmetic in nature or have combat effects that are replicated by other items currently available in game? Not particularly -- I don't buy the "vehicles and decor are taking away from traders," since vehicles, paintings, statues and whatnot have been dropping as loot or given as quest rewards for quite some time.
However, it does bother me if the only avenue a player has to obtain a certain advantage, feature or bonus is through the TCG, such as with the diner or the barn. That does bug me. Enough to cancel my subs? No. But I'm not happy with it, and I will always push for equivalence from in-game endeavors.
I see people all the time decrying the TCG as a "money grab." OF COURSE it's a money grab. However, for the time being, it's a completely optional one, so I'm not going to set my hair on fire over it like some people here and on the O-boards have. The day it doesn't become completely optional (and the diner and barn are pushing it), then I'll re-examine it.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Not one damn bit of this matters. The NGE is dead. If LEC had any faith in SOE at all, they'd be developing the new game. They aren't. It's just here to fill a place until the new game comes out. LEC basically doesn't give a crap what SOE does with it from now until it closes (less than a year away, as evidenced by the ending of the 1 year sub option). SOE is doing what SOE does... The TCG in SWG is offering outrageous in game items (unlike the EQ one) that are unobtainable and gameplay affecting. This is THEIR cynical last ditch "grab all the cash from the suckers we can".
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
I thought that sounded odd, especially for SOE. Knowing them, they will keep the year subscription available to purchase straight up to the day they shut the game down, and not give refunds.
That might be a big legal obstacle for them if they tried to get away with not giving refunds. There's a difference between radically changing the service (as they did with NGE) and not rendering it (as would happen with a shutdown). They might be able to BS it into offering prepaid credit for other SOE products, which very few people would accept, but I don't think they can just shut the game down and say "lump it."
IIRC, NCSoft did give something to TR subscribers, although I think it was beta preference to Aion and prepaid sub time for other NCSoft games.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
just my opinion by the way, but as a gamer i have been screwed over by companies for years and years, blizzard, EA, lots of others, they are always changing things, they are always having bad customer service, they are always doing something stupid.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
Are you summing up the NGE as a "chunck" of a change and comparing it to other game's revamps? /sigh
I used to play what I liked, and would still be playing it if it wasn't destroyed
The last game I left due to massive changes is probably one you have never heard of. It was called "A tale in the Desert" Atitd.com
The changes were he moved it from a total sandbox system where you could pick and choose profs and mix them as you please to a closed quest based level system
I have seen a lot of revamps as massive or more massive as SWG. I"m not sure about chunk of change or what you mean by that. Player population and good games are not necessarily the same thing. Lots of people drink coke and eat macdonald's but it doesn't mean its good. If the gameyou enjoy changes in some way by the developers by any degree in enough of a degree to make you not want to play it the same thing so yeah I guess i am summing up any changes I have seen in games by other companies as changes large enough to equal an NGE. People rarely learn from history of anything politics and poor economies among other things are proof of that. Why would gaming be any different?
It's become obvious that some people will say, and perhaps believe, anything they like in order to try to save or protect their online happy place. Some may get paid to do it, others may be staff doing it in their spare time, and I'm sure many are just players that don't want to lose their virtual experience. I'll be honest, I didn't want to lose my virtual experience either. Who does? MMOs create emotional attachments and people get invested in their progress. Nobody wants to lose this, but would you lie to protect it? Would you say that the loot vehicles offer no advantages when information has been clearly posted saying that they do? Would you say that SOE can be counted on to listen to their players when time and time again they have failed to do so? Would you suggest that one example of listening to a players request could possibly offset all of the deceptions and broken promises of the past 5 years? Would you say that loot cards do not give player buffs? How 'bout this one: Would you be happy that SOE is squeezing large amounts of cash from fellow gamers via their TCG game of chance because it means you may get some of the content you've been hoping for? Would you pull up laws from another country to try to defend actions taking place in the United States? Would you say that the NGE and the TCG have been well received, and that it's only a vocal minority that complain about them? Some people would. Every one of these examples can be found somewhere on these boards and more. We can provide these people over and over again with factual information. We can provide quotes from devs, from Smed or from other internet sources to back it up, and it won't matter. Why not? Because the truth does not fit with their agenda. Hopefully I'll remember this and spare myself some frustration in future discussions lol; I guess we'll see .
As per your OP, I think you're right. There's lots of people on both sides of the pro/anti-SWG debate that simply refuse to see any of the points the "other side" makes as valid in any way. Those who correct factual errors (or lies), dispute anecdotal accounts, pooh-pooh assertions, or in any way disagree are pigeonholed as "pissed-off pre-CU fanbois" (by one side) or "carrying SOE's water" (by the other).
There's usually no convincing people in a debate as polarized as this one.
Regarding the TCG, my thoughts on it are well established. Do I mind its existence? No. Do I mind loot items that are purely cosmetic in nature or have combat effects that are replicated by other items currently available in game? Not particularly -- I don't buy the "vehicles and decor are taking away from traders," since vehicles, paintings, statues and whatnot have been dropping as loot or given as quest rewards for quite some time.
However, it does bother me if the only avenue a player has to obtain a certain advantage, feature or bonus is through the TCG, such as with the diner or the barn. That does bug me. Enough to cancel my subs? No. But I'm not happy with it, and I will always push for equivalence from in-game endeavors.
I see people all the time decrying the TCG as a "money grab." OF COURSE it's a money grab. However, for the time being, it's a completely optional one, so I'm not going to set my hair on fire over it like some people here and on the O-boards have. The day it doesn't become completely optional (and the diner and barn are pushing it), then I'll re-examine it.
I'll just say the NGE really kicked me in a place I don't get kicked in often.
As to much of this... Its actually an evolution of things that aren't related (to something like the NGE).
Anyone remember playing EQ1 and you had people crying about the "uber guilds" ? Oh it wasn't that they did evil things as they were in places the whiners could never get to. It was the fact they had something other people couldn't have.
They had no life
They had no job
Comments like that...
Me? I was average gamer that while I enjoyed playing with other people. I had no desire to be forced on for X hours.. to earn points... etc
However, back then I wasn't a whiner (most definitely an NGE whiner). Sure I saw neat things people had and I would check out those items.. but I just played the game my way. I wish at times I was still more like that..
*moving forward*
If it wasn't the TCG then it would be some content that the same people couldn't complete.. and they would crap on the fact they couldn't complete it.
If it wasn't the CU or the NGE it would be someone crying they didn't understand skills or it was "to hard".
Truth of the matter is no matter what ANY MMO developer does somebody is going to be crying about it (maybe me).
Obviously anything these companies do is a money grab.. that's what they do. I mean there are people who complain that you have to pay a monthly fee to play... There have been post like that on this forum and many others. To those people the entire industry is a TCG money grab...
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
I am not so sure it is addiction. I am not saying it isn't, just there may be more to it than that. We all know that it dosen't take a day to get to the top in our games of choice. Folks develop a strong attachment to their characters and the possesions and assets of said characters. In the case of SWG, with all that was done and the lies told by the devs, I think is more of a deeper hope. I see a lot of venom on both sides..The disgruntled vets (of which I'm one) and the current players. I, myself am over it and have been for years, I don't think of SWG these days (lol). But the folks who are so militant about defending it even the ones who say they hate it or whatever but still play, is an attachment and a hope theat their "suffering" will pay off. It's also hope that they aren't stupid.
Its kind of like a scilon. (scientologist) The reason they are so militant about any criticism on their cult is because they have so much invested, when it comes right down to it. Anyone OT3 or above especially. By the time you get OT3 and learn about Xenu the alien , you are already in for $300 large. Thats a lot of dough. In the process, you have probly lost everything , and are living in one of thier compounds. In the scilon's perspective HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT. Because if he aint he's sunk his life into this thing, and no one likes to think they are that guillable and stupid to fall for a scam like that.
Now for the gamer think of all the subsciption money they have shelled out and all the play time they have invested. And, in the case of SWG, all the BS they have had to put up with. They are in it for the long haul, because there has to be a pay off. There HAS to be. So I can understand BOTH sides. I don't think however, the issue is addiction, just a simple hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
The games I recently quit I had a hard time doing because of the investment made, but as a consumer I could not justify paying for a game run by companies who are run like cell phone companies, so in the end it wasn't a hard decision. But I can understand the mentality of: "O next patch it will get fixed" ""Ok I'll give it one more patch." ..3-4-5 years later...
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
No. Just no.
What I took from your quoted statement is that when you're done playing a game or don't find it interesting anymore you just walk away and forget about it. A common criticism leveled at the vets is that we spend too much time obsessing over a game we hate. My comment was that SOE would love it if we just forgot about them...I'm sure they are desperate to have us forget about them but it's not going to happen.
You're just going to keep rehashing this in a different way in a different thread as much as you can as long as people are disagreeing with you, aren't you? Are the Pod-racers faster then other vehicles available in the game? Possibly but I haven't had the opportunity to chase anyone down using one since no one uses them in PvP (probably due to the significant price difference to repair them compared to other vehicles). As for your line about the TCG and international countries, are those of us outside of the USA expected to change our opinions to bow to your American ways? I cannot change my opinion to form to yours when I don't live under the same conditions as you. I cannot think something's wrong because you believe it is (supposedly, an actual lawyer has yet to prove your claims) in your country. You claim to have brought forward facts and truth yet this is very rarely the case. Most discussions on these forums are based on opinions with equal amount of bias on either side. Your opinions are no truer then mine.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
You're just going to keep rehashing this in a different way in a different thread as much as you can as long as people are disagreeing with you, aren't you? Are the Pod-racers faster then other vehicles available in the game? Possibly but I haven't had the opportunity to chase anyone down using one since no one uses them in PvP (probably due to the significant price difference to repair them compared to other vehicles). As for your line about the TCG and international countries, are those of us outside of the USA expected to change our opinions to bow to your American ways? I cannot change my opinion to form to yours when I don't live under the same conditions as you. I cannot think something's wrong because you believe it is (supposedly, an actual lawyer has yet to prove your claims) in your country. You claim to have brought forward facts and truth yet this is very rarely the case. Most discussions on these forums are based on opinions with equal amount of bias on either side. Your opinions are no truer then mine.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
C'mon Obi. Arc never said the TCG was illegal. He had a discussion on how it could be a form of gambling. he never said chapter 6 was bad, he said more people left becuase of the change, and if it brought fewer people in, then by definition its bad. He never said whether or not chapter 6 was "fun". It cost subs..it was bad in that way..not in gameplay. You are doing exactly what arc said in his OP. Your just asking for it ...i like you (your forum personality anyway)..just trying to help ya out.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
You're just going to keep rehashing this in a different way in a different thread as much as you can as long as people are disagreeing with you, aren't you? Are the Pod-racers faster then other vehicles available in the game? Possibly but I haven't had the opportunity to chase anyone down using one since no one uses them in PvP (probably due to the significant price difference to repair them compared to other vehicles). As for your line about the TCG and international countries, are those of us outside of the USA expected to change our opinions to bow to your American ways? I cannot change my opinion to form to yours when I don't live under the same conditions as you. I cannot think something's wrong because you believe it is (supposedly, an actual lawyer has yet to prove your claims) in your country. You claim to have brought forward facts and truth yet this is very rarely the case. Most discussions on these forums are based on opinions with equal amount of bias on either side. Your opinions are no truer then mine.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
As for if TCG is legal or not, I would imagine that they have heard from a couple of State Atty. Generals, already, as they have posted a statement, not valid in so and so State. Either that, or their own counsel has told them they might have problems in these places and better off to limit the participation than "try" the case.
"Net" Law is certainly behind the times. Martindale/Hubbel is full of internet "opinions" at this point as to what and if existing laws apply. Most opinions, atm, are that they do in the absence of specific regulations/statutes. There are some States that have defined some of "Net" Law. However, State assemblys are catching up. You would be surprised at the amount of "net" bills, pending. And certainly, Gambling is at the top of the lists in some of these States. The defenition of "Gambling" has yet to be determined, in most cases via the internet, but all of these "new" bills will attempt to define the term "Gamble" for the purpose of that specific bill/Law.
As for C6CD, the proof (so to speak) is in the pudding. Smedley announced at the inception of C6CD that SWG had 100,000 subscriptions at that specific point in time. Does is now? Is really the best question to ask, here. The last thread I seen, from current players, the best "guess-timate" was between 20K and 30K. If that is indeed true, then C6CD lost about the same percentage of subscriptions that NGE lost. There is no way, I think that any1 can call that "good".
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
I am not so sure it is addiction. I am not saying it isn't, just there may be more to it than that. We all know that it dosen't take a day to get to the top in our games of choice. Folks develop a strong attachment to their characters and the possesions and assets of said characters. In the case of SWG, with all that was done and the lies told by the devs, I think is more of a deeper hope. I see a lot of venom on both sides..The disgruntled vets (of which I'm one) and the current players. I, myself am over it and have been for years, I don't think of SWG these days (lol). But the folks who are so militant about defending it even the ones who say they hate it or whatever but still play, is an attachment and a hope theat their "suffering" will pay off. It's also hope that they aren't stupid.
Its kind of like a scilon. (scientologist) The reason they are so militant about any criticism on their cult is because they have so much invested, when it comes right down to it. Anyone OT3 or above especially. By the time you get OT3 and learn about Xenu the alien , you are already in for $300 large. Thats a lot of dough. In the process, you have probly lost everything , and are living in one of thier compounds. In the scilon's perspective HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT. Because if he aint he's sunk his life into this thing, and no one likes to think they are that guillable and stupid to fall for a scam like that.
Now for the gamer think of all the subsciption money they have shelled out and all the play time they have invested. And, in the case of SWG, all the BS they have had to put up with. They are in it for the long haul, because there has to be a pay off. There HAS to be. So I can understand BOTH sides. I don't think however, the issue is addiction, just a simple hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
The games I recently quit I had a hard time doing because of the investment made, but as a consumer I could not justify paying for a game run by companies who are run like cell phone companies, so in the end it wasn't a hard decision. But I can understand the mentality of: "O next patch it will get fixed" ""Ok I'll give it one more patch." ..3-4-5 years later...
I think this is an extremely insightful and informative post, and it helps to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
I also take it as a bit of a personal challenge (or wake up call). Could I get myself so invested in something that meets needs for me, that I'd be willing to believe and share falsehoods to try to protect my investment? I hope not, but we all have our blindspots.
I think self-awareness, integrity and a willingness to let something go might be safeguards against this, as well as trying to be open to outside information (humility and open-mindedness if you will).
These dynamics also remind me of the group-think phenomenon, where a closed group of people reinforce their own ideas, largely to safeguard their investment, and they become unable or unwilling to hear information that contradicts their basic assumptions. We studied the occurence of this at NASA for instance in one of my sociology classes. This can happen to very smart people; it's sobering.
You're just going to keep rehashing this in a different way in a different thread as much as you can as long as people are disagreeing with you, aren't you? Are the Pod-racers faster then other vehicles available in the game? Possibly but I haven't had the opportunity to chase anyone down using one since no one uses them in PvP (probably due to the significant price difference to repair them compared to other vehicles). As for your line about the TCG and international countries, are those of us outside of the USA expected to change our opinions to bow to your American ways? I cannot change my opinion to form to yours when I don't live under the same conditions as you. I cannot think something's wrong because you believe it is (supposedly, an actual lawyer has yet to prove your claims) in your country. You claim to have brought forward facts and truth yet this is very rarely the case. Most discussions on these forums are based on opinions with equal amount of bias on either side. Your opinions are no truer then mine.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
C'mon Obi. Arc never said the TCG was illegal. He had a discussion on how it could be a form of gambling. he never said chapter 6 was bad, he said more people left becuase of the change, and if it brought fewer people in, then by definition its bad. He never said whether or not chapter 6 was "fun". It cost subs..it was bad in that way..not in gameplay. You are doing exactly what arc said in his OP. Your just asking for it ...i like you (your forum personality anyway)..just trying to help ya out.
Thanks Fik. I also want to say that some of the words Obi thinks I'm shoving into his mouth, didn't come from him, and I realize this. This really isn't all about him (specifically) at all. Many of the comments I'm thinking of didn't come from him. Actually only one of them did, regarding the irrelevant jurisdiction issue, and that wasn't a lie, it was just irrelevant at best, and a misdirection--worst case.
Things that have been outright falsehoods said by people defending SOE on these boards include things like: the TCG loot items are all purely cosmetic (Obi never said that btw); SWG is the only sci-fi sandbox game on the market today; you can do everything in the current SWG that you could in pre-cu with the exception of creature-taming; the only thing people lost with the NGE was their creature handler necklace; the only thing people lost in the NGE was their "master jedi" title; the game changes (pick one) are receiving overwhelming positive feedback; their is no population problem with the game, and more people are joining all the time.
Obi can look at this list and see that he hasn't said most of these things, and hopefully realizes that I haven't accused him of this either.
The point I was making is that there are some people who won't acknowledge things that are objective, verifiable truth; there are some who will share falsehoods apparently to protect their investnment in an MMO, and there are some who seem to do both. There's some kind of spectrum here, in my view, and Obi is not at what I would consider the far end. I think he's on it somewhere though, and yes, that is an opinion.
I definitely share my opinions on these boards. However, when I do so, I label them as such. I also try to share factual information that I think will be of interest to fellow gamers.
Using the loot card example (though this thread still isn't really about that in my view). It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's also a fact that legislation passed in the U.S. in 2006 prohibits online games that risk real money on a chance outcome. These are both facts. It is therefore my opinion that the way SOE runs their TCG is unethical and possibly illegal--someone else will have to render a judgment on that though. I'm retired from law enforcement, and I never was a judge .
It's also a fact that the waypoint arrow for groups are still broken in the game (last I checked). My opinion is that this is frustrating and absurd.
It's a fact that WoW gives printed trading cards that you own, and that SOE does not. In my opinion, WoW's game provides more value then for the money spent.
It's a fact that Smed said things like, "how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, the cu is here to stay, we're going to fast track server mergers, I'm opposed to RMT entering EQ etc. etc., and that his actions then completely contradicted his words. That's a fact. It's my opinion, therefore, that he's bad for the MMO genre and can't be trusted.
If anyone wants to say that I've shared my opinions; yup most definitely. If someone wants to say that this means I haven't shared probably hundreds of objective, verifiable facts along with this, well that's just more b.s., or spin if you will.
I'll also say that this whole spin machine really started up officially as part of the NGE marketting campaign. That's when a lot of vets began reading things about our game, and about us as people, in magazines and on internet forums that were absolute, outright lies, and derogatory on top of it. I think our response is only logical. If someone lies about your experience, your integrity, and your friends, you may be inclined to say, "hey wait a minute, that's not what really happened, let me tell you the whole story." (Unfortunately, SOE or its defenders don't seem to have stopped this campaign to try to discredit it's own players' opinions of their products.)
A lot of my posts have been just that. What I'm realizing now is that most people are well aware of the truth, and the only people that aren't seem to be the few people that can't or won't accept it for some reason. I would say it's widely known that SWG players got the shaft, and that Smed breaks his word time and again. I would say it's widley known that their TCG is a cash-grabbing money scam. I would say it's widely known that SOE does not put a lot of polish into their games, and that they've lost a lot of talent in recent years. At this point, people that don't acknowledge this, probably won't benefit from hearing it again. A lack of information really doesn't seem to be the problem.
Thanks Fik. I also want to say that the words Obi thinks I'm shoving into his mouth, didn't come from him, and I realize this. This really isn't all about him (specifically) at all. Many of the comments I'm thinking of didn't come from him at all. Actually only one of them did, regarding the irrelevant jurisdiction issue, and that wasn't a lie, it was just irrelevant at best, and a misdirection--worst case.
Things that have been outright falsehoods said by people defending SOE include things like: the TCG loot items are all purely cosmetic (Obi never said that btw); SWG is the only sci-fi sandbox game on the market today; you can do everything in the current SWG that you could in pre-cu with the exception of creature-taming; the only thing people lost with the NGE was their creature handler necklace; the only thing people lost in the NGE was their "master jedi" title; the game changes (pick one) are receiving overwhelming positive feedback; their is no population problem with the game, and more people are joining all the time. Obi can look at this list and see that he hasn't said most of these things, and hopefully realizes that I haven't accused him of this either. The point I was making is that there are some people who won't acknowledge things that are objectively verifiable truth, there are some who will lie to believe and share falsehood apparently to protect their investnment in an MMO, and there are some who seem to do both. There's some kind of spectrum here, in my view, and Obi is not at what I would consider the far end. Definitely rare to ever here an acknowledgement that SOE screws up their game, and screws over their players mind you. Also, I defintiely do share my opinions on these boards. However, when I do so, I label them as such. I also try to share factual information that I think will be of interest to fellow gamers. Using the loot card example (though this thread still isn't really about that in my view). It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's also a fact that legislation passed in the U.S. in 2006 prohibits online games of chance that risk real money on a chance outcome. These are both facts. It is therefore my opinion that the way SOE runs their TCG is unethical and possibly illegal--someone else will have to render a judgment on that though. I'm retired from law enforcement, and I never was a judge . It's also a fact that the waypoint arrow for groups are still broken in the game (last I checked). My opinion is that this is frustrating and absurd. It's a fact that WoW gives printed trading cards that you own, and that SOE does not. In my opinion, WoW's game provides more value then for the money spent. It's a fact that Smed said things like, "how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, the cu is here to stay, we're going to fast track server mergers, I'm opposed to RMT entering EQ etc. etc., and that his actions then completely contradicted his words. That's a fact. It's my opinion, therefore, that he's bad for the MMO genre and can't be trusted. If anyone wants to say that I've shared my opinions; yup most definitely. If someone wants to say that this means I haven't shared probably hundreds of objective verifiable facts along with this, well that's just more b.s., or spin if you will. I'll also say that this whole spin machine really started up officially as part of the NGE marketting campaign. That's when a lot of vets began reading things about our game, and about us as people, in magazines and on internet forums that were absolute, outright lies, and derogatory on top of it. I think our response is only logical. If someone lies about your experience, your integrity, and your friends, you may be included to say, "hey wait a minute, that's not what really happened, let me tell you the whole story." A lot of my posts have been just that. What I'm realizing now, is that most people are now well aware of the truth, and the only people that aren't seem to be the few people that can't or won't accept it for some reason. I would say it's widely known that SWG players got the shaft, and that Smed breaks his word time and again. I would say it's widley known that their TCG is a cash-grabbing money scam. I would say it's widely known that SOE does not put a lot of polish into their games, and that they've lost a lot of talent in recent years. At this point, people that don't acknowledge this, probably won't benefit from hearing it again. A lack of information really doesn't seem to be the problem.
Thanks Fik. I also want to say that the words Obi thinks I'm shoving into his mouth, didn't come from him, and I realize this. This really isn't all about him (specifically) at all. Many of the comments I'm thinking of didn't come from him at all. Actually only one of them did, regarding the irrelevant jurisdiction issue, and that wasn't a lie, it was just irrelevant at best, and a misdirection--worst case.
Things that have been outright falsehoods said by people defending SOE include things like: the TCG loot items are all purely cosmetic (Obi never said that btw); SWG is the only sci-fi sandbox game on the market today; you can do everything in the current SWG that you could in pre-cu with the exception of creature-taming; the only thing people lost with the NGE was their creature handler necklace; the only thing people lost in the NGE was their "master jedi" title; the game changes (pick one) are receiving overwhelming positive feedback; their is no population problem with the game, and more people are joining all the time. Obi can look at this list and see that he hasn't said most of these things, and hopefully realizes that I haven't accused him of this either. The point I was making is that there are some people who won't acknowledge things that are objectively verifiable truth, there are some who will lie to believe and share falsehood apparently to protect their investnment in an MMO, and there are some who seem to do both. There's some kind of spectrum here, in my view, and Obi is not at what I would consider the far end. Definitely rare to ever here an acknowledgement that SOE screws up their game, and screws over their players mind you. Also, I defintiely do share my opinions on these boards. However, when I do so, I label them as such. I also try to share factual information that I think will be of interest to fellow gamers. Using the loot card example (though this thread still isn't really about that in my view). It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's also a fact that legislation passed in the U.S. in 2006 prohibits online games of chance that risk real money on a chance outcome. These are both facts. It is therefore my opinion that the way SOE runs their TCG is unethical and possibly illegal--someone else will have to render a judgment on that though. I'm retired from law enforcement, and I never was a judge . It's also a fact that the waypoint arrow for groups are still broken in the game (last I checked). My opinion is that this is frustrating and absurd. It's a fact that WoW gives printed trading cards that you own, and that SOE does not. In my opinion, WoW's game provides more value then for the money spent. It's a fact that Smed said things like, "how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, the cu is here to stay, we're going to fast track server mergers, I'm opposed to RMT entering EQ etc. etc., and that his actions then completely contradicted his words. That's a fact. It's my opinion, therefore, that he's bad for the MMO genre and can't be trusted. If anyone wants to say that I've shared my opinions; yup most definitely. If someone wants to say that this means I haven't shared probably hundreds of objective verifiable facts along with this, well that's just more b.s., or spin if you will. I'll also say that this whole spin machine really started up officially as part of the NGE marketting campaign. That's when a lot of vets began reading things about our game, and about us as people, in magazines and on internet forums that were absolute, outright lies, and derogatory on top of it. I think our response is only logical. If someone lies about your experience, your integrity, and your friends, you may be included to say, "hey wait a minute, that's not what really happened, let me tell you the whole story." A lot of my posts have been just that. What I'm realizing now, is that most people are now well aware of the truth, and the only people that aren't seem to be the few people that can't or won't accept it for some reason. I would say it's widely known that SWG players got the shaft, and that Smed breaks his word time and again. I would say it's widley known that their TCG is a cash-grabbing money scam. I would say it's widely known that SOE does not put a lot of polish into their games, and that they've lost a lot of talent in recent years. At this point, people that don't acknowledge this, probably won't benefit from hearing it again. A lack of information really doesn't seem to be the problem.
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 A lot of my posts have been just that. What I'm realizing now is that most people are well aware of the truth, and the only people that aren't seem to be the few people that can't or won't accept it for some reason. I would say it's widely known that SWG players got the shaft, and that Smed breaks his word time and again. I would say it's widley known that their TCG is a cash-grabbing money scam. I would say it's widely known that SOE does not put a lot of polish into their games, and that they've lost a lot of talent in recent years. At this point, people that don't acknowledge this, probably won't benefit from hearing it again. A lack of information really doesn't seem to be the problem.
I think I hit full by the way about talking about the negative aspects of this game (again) so this is probably my final post until I see something else that is a slightly different spin on the negative that makes me wants to create a thread or say something, but here are some parting remarks
Everyone is aware of the truths but we are all just people after all. Someone once told me that the way to ruin my gaming experience was to read the official forum rants of the gaming site for the game I was playing. That person was right. Every game I have ever played regardless of its quality and polish and whatnot has had mostly negative and very little positive. Every site where someone says something that is not in keeping with whatever theme of the week is usualy gets whimilated because his opinion is not that of the majority.
Statements are made by various companies about things and I can guarantee you that everyone reads what they want to read no matter how objective they are trying to be. If someone is wanting to give a negative "spin" to the game they will dwell on the negatives of the statments (what they aren't working on. the photographs or maybe some guys oversized nose as long as its negative and suits their cause they will use it. If that identical statment is looked at by someone who in fact likes whatever game they are playing they will not see those negatives and only see the positives and can use the exact same statements to bolster their side of the "arguments". I have seen it enough times to know its true. Funny thing is the person who first said this is a game developer in a game I absolutely hate. I then started reading their information releases (news etc) and at that moment I realized that whatever information they released was being taken apart and analyzed to "defend" both the negative and the positive and it was quite amusing.
I also know that every statement made about the defenders in your post goes equally and with the same frequency on the sony/swg "haters" side of the fence. I only know that in your case and I'm not trying to be mean you have in fact ignored that and one false statement that was repeated twice in this thread was in fact not a part of the post because it did not serve the purpose of your post yet it was true that he was either mistaken or lying and has not come back to correct himself so I will assume I guess that he just said it even though it was not true because it served his purpose which was to support his predictions of game shutdowns which to date have not come true. One day when the game does shut down he will of course use it to his means and Im sure it will be imaginative and fun to read.
One thing is for sure I am again tired of this rehashing so I think I will find myself another sit down coffee break passtime cause what you said has been said before and validated before its just yet another repeat of the same old same old only by another poster.
One thing is for sure I am again tired of this rehashing so I think I will find myself another sit down coffee break passtime cause what you said has been said before and validated before its just yet another repeat of the same old same old only by another poster.
But doesn't that go for you as well or do you consider yourself above it all?
"It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion."
Why this statement is false, look at just one galaxie trade post for someone selling the tradable game cards for INGAME CREDITS. They are selling the cards which could be traded again and again, they become no-trade once they are redeemed.
"It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Why this statement is false, look at just one galaxie trade post for someone selling the tradable game cards for INGAME CREDITS. They are selling the cards which could be traded again and again, they become no-trade once they are redeemed. TCG;
Barn and cantina - 50 mil each
Organiztional Datapad x3 - 20 mil Each
Gardens - 5 mil
Bomar vendor - 10mil
Meatlump Vendor - 10 mil
New Display Case - 15mil
Darth Vader Painting - 10 mil Deathstar promo card - 15mil
Adrik card - 5mil
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
"It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Why this statement is false, look at just one galaxie trade post for someone selling the tradable game cards for INGAME CREDITS. They are selling the cards which could be traded again and again, they become no-trade once they are redeemed. TCG;
Barn and cantina - 50 mil each
Organiztional Datapad x3 - 20 mil Each
Gardens - 5 mil
Bomar vendor - 10mil
Meatlump Vendor - 10 mil
New Display Case - 15mil
Darth Vader Painting - 10 mil Deathstar promo card - 15mil
Adrik card - 5mil
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
Comments
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
Of all the people that must understand what I'm saying here, I'm sure you're one of them Kobie lol
It's hard to have a discussion when people won't admit that their information was wrong (not a lie in everycase, sometimes just an error that I've made myself). It's even harder to have a conversation with someone that knows the truth but says something misleading anyways. You just can't talk to people like that, so I've decided to focus my attention elsewhere 
Now if I really put my money where my mouth is, I'll stop posting in this thread lol...Me and my higher power.
P.S. since you're in this discussion now, I almost fell out of my chair when someone said that everyone knows you're really wildcat; damn that was the funniest thing I think I've ever read on these boards.
LOL yeah, that was pretty funny.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
Are you summing up the NGE as a "chunck" of a change and comparing it to other game's revamps? /sigh
I used to play what I liked, and would still be playing it if it wasn't destroyed
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I found this on a forum awhile back now and have need of posting it somewhere appropriate cause it gives me a chuckle
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
I thought that sounded odd, especially for SOE. Knowing them, they will keep the year subscription available to purchase straight up to the day they shut the game down, and not give refunds.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
As per your OP, I think you're right. There's lots of people on both sides of the pro/anti-SWG debate that simply refuse to see any of the points the "other side" makes as valid in any way. Those who correct factual errors (or lies), dispute anecdotal accounts, pooh-pooh assertions, or in any way disagree are pigeonholed as "pissed-off pre-CU fanbois" (by one side) or "carrying SOE's water" (by the other).
There's usually no convincing people in a debate as polarized as this one.
Regarding the TCG, my thoughts on it are well established. Do I mind its existence? No. Do I mind loot items that are purely cosmetic in nature or have combat effects that are replicated by other items currently available in game? Not particularly -- I don't buy the "vehicles and decor are taking away from traders," since vehicles, paintings, statues and whatnot have been dropping as loot or given as quest rewards for quite some time.
However, it does bother me if the only avenue a player has to obtain a certain advantage, feature or bonus is through the TCG, such as with the diner or the barn. That does bug me. Enough to cancel my subs? No. But I'm not happy with it, and I will always push for equivalence from in-game endeavors.
I see people all the time decrying the TCG as a "money grab." OF COURSE it's a money grab. However, for the time being, it's a completely optional one, so I'm not going to set my hair on fire over it like some people here and on the O-boards have. The day it doesn't become completely optional (and the diner and barn are pushing it), then I'll re-examine it.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
You see, when I accuse the "vets" of lying, this is what I'm talking about.
The one-year sub option didn't go anywhere. It's still there. I just resubbed an account last week and sure enough, the one-year option was right there in front of me.
Second time in this thread you've said it. it was bullshit the first time and it's still bullshit.
Slag on SWG all you want. Just don't lie to do it.
I thought that sounded odd, especially for SOE. Knowing them, they will keep the year subscription available to purchase straight up to the day they shut the game down, and not give refunds.
That might be a big legal obstacle for them if they tried to get away with not giving refunds. There's a difference between radically changing the service (as they did with NGE) and not rendering it (as would happen with a shutdown). They might be able to BS it into offering prepaid credit for other SOE products, which very few people would accept, but I don't think they can just shut the game down and say "lump it."
IIRC, NCSoft did give something to TR subscribers, although I think it was beta preference to Aion and prepaid sub time for other NCSoft games.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Ditto on that and I remember ryzom changes, but didn't mind them a whole lot (I stopped playing though and have never returned). Blizzard recently did a combat system revamp if I remember rightly and just after I left WoW due to boredom they completely changed my class (I was a hunter). I have yet to see a company not change things in large chunks as they see fit.
The key is play the game you like and when you stop liking it stop playing.
Are you summing up the NGE as a "chunck" of a change and comparing it to other game's revamps? /sigh
I used to play what I liked, and would still be playing it if it wasn't destroyed
The last game I left due to massive changes is probably one you have never heard of. It was called "A tale in the Desert" Atitd.com
The changes were he moved it from a total sandbox system where you could pick and choose profs and mix them as you please to a closed quest based level system
I have seen a lot of revamps as massive or more massive as SWG. I"m not sure about chunk of change or what you mean by that. Player population and good games are not necessarily the same thing. Lots of people drink coke and eat macdonald's but it doesn't mean its good. If the gameyou enjoy changes in some way by the developers by any degree in enough of a degree to make you not want to play it the same thing so yeah I guess i am summing up any changes I have seen in games by other companies as changes large enough to equal an NGE. People rarely learn from history of anything politics and poor economies among other things are proof of that. Why would gaming be any different?
As per your OP, I think you're right. There's lots of people on both sides of the pro/anti-SWG debate that simply refuse to see any of the points the "other side" makes as valid in any way. Those who correct factual errors (or lies), dispute anecdotal accounts, pooh-pooh assertions, or in any way disagree are pigeonholed as "pissed-off pre-CU fanbois" (by one side) or "carrying SOE's water" (by the other).
There's usually no convincing people in a debate as polarized as this one.
Regarding the TCG, my thoughts on it are well established. Do I mind its existence? No. Do I mind loot items that are purely cosmetic in nature or have combat effects that are replicated by other items currently available in game? Not particularly -- I don't buy the "vehicles and decor are taking away from traders," since vehicles, paintings, statues and whatnot have been dropping as loot or given as quest rewards for quite some time.
However, it does bother me if the only avenue a player has to obtain a certain advantage, feature or bonus is through the TCG, such as with the diner or the barn. That does bug me. Enough to cancel my subs? No. But I'm not happy with it, and I will always push for equivalence from in-game endeavors.
I see people all the time decrying the TCG as a "money grab." OF COURSE it's a money grab. However, for the time being, it's a completely optional one, so I'm not going to set my hair on fire over it like some people here and on the O-boards have. The day it doesn't become completely optional (and the diner and barn are pushing it), then I'll re-examine it.
I'll just say the NGE really kicked me in a place I don't get kicked in often.
As to much of this... Its actually an evolution of things that aren't related (to something like the NGE).
Anyone remember playing EQ1 and you had people crying about the "uber guilds" ? Oh it wasn't that they did evil things as they were in places the whiners could never get to. It was the fact they had something other people couldn't have.
They had no life
They had no job
Comments like that...
Me? I was average gamer that while I enjoyed playing with other people. I had no desire to be forced on for X hours.. to earn points... etc
However, back then I wasn't a whiner (most definitely an NGE whiner). Sure I saw neat things people had and I would check out those items.. but I just played the game my way. I wish at times I was still more like that..
*moving forward*
If it wasn't the TCG then it would be some content that the same people couldn't complete.. and they would crap on the fact they couldn't complete it.
If it wasn't the CU or the NGE it would be someone crying they didn't understand skills or it was "to hard".
Truth of the matter is no matter what ANY MMO developer does somebody is going to be crying about it (maybe me).
Obviously anything these companies do is a money grab.. that's what they do. I mean there are people who complain that you have to pay a monthly fee to play... There have been post like that on this forum and many others. To those people the entire industry is a TCG money grab...
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
I am not so sure it is addiction. I am not saying it isn't, just there may be more to it than that. We all know that it dosen't take a day to get to the top in our games of choice. Folks develop a strong attachment to their characters and the possesions and assets of said characters. In the case of SWG, with all that was done and the lies told by the devs, I think is more of a deeper hope. I see a lot of venom on both sides..The disgruntled vets (of which I'm one) and the current players. I, myself am over it and have been for years, I don't think of SWG these days (lol). But the folks who are so militant about defending it even the ones who say they hate it or whatever but still play, is an attachment and a hope theat their "suffering" will pay off. It's also hope that they aren't stupid.
Its kind of like a scilon. (scientologist) The reason they are so militant about any criticism on their cult is because they have so much invested, when it comes right down to it. Anyone OT3 or above especially. By the time you get OT3 and learn about Xenu the alien
, you are already in for $300 large. Thats a lot of dough. In the process, you have probly lost everything , and are living in one of thier compounds. In the scilon's perspective HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT. Because if he aint he's sunk his life into this thing, and no one likes to think they are that guillable and stupid to fall for a scam like that.
Now for the gamer think of all the subsciption money they have shelled out and all the play time they have invested. And, in the case of SWG, all the BS they have had to put up with. They are in it for the long haul, because there has to be a pay off. There HAS to be. So I can understand BOTH sides. I don't think however, the issue is addiction, just a simple hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
The games I recently quit I had a hard time doing because of the investment made, but as a consumer I could not justify paying for a game run by companies who are run like cell phone companies, so in the end it wasn't a hard decision. But I can understand the mentality of: "O next patch it will get fixed" ""Ok I'll give it one more patch." ..3-4-5 years later...
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
No. Just no.
What I took from your quoted statement is that when you're done playing a game or don't find it interesting anymore you just walk away and forget about it. A common criticism leveled at the vets is that we spend too much time obsessing over a game we hate. My comment was that SOE would love it if we just forgot about them...I'm sure they are desperate to have us forget about them but it's not going to happen.
I haven't paid for SWG since 2005 by the way.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
C'mon Obi. Arc never said the TCG was illegal. He had a discussion on how it could be a form of gambling. he never said chapter 6 was bad, he said more people left becuase of the change, and if it brought fewer people in, then by definition its bad. He never said whether or not chapter 6 was "fun". It cost subs..it was bad in that way..not in gameplay. You are doing exactly what arc said in his OP. Your just asking for it ...i like you (your forum personality anyway)..just trying to help ya out.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
As for if TCG is legal or not, I would imagine that they have heard from a couple of State Atty. Generals, already, as they have posted a statement, not valid in so and so State. Either that, or their own counsel has told them they might have problems in these places and better off to limit the participation than "try" the case.
"Net" Law is certainly behind the times. Martindale/Hubbel is full of internet "opinions" at this point as to what and if existing laws apply. Most opinions, atm, are that they do in the absence of specific regulations/statutes. There are some States that have defined some of "Net" Law. However, State assemblys are catching up. You would be surprised at the amount of "net" bills, pending. And certainly, Gambling is at the top of the lists in some of these States. The defenition of "Gambling" has yet to be determined, in most cases via the internet, but all of these "new" bills will attempt to define the term "Gamble" for the purpose of that specific bill/Law.
As for C6CD, the proof (so to speak) is in the pudding. Smedley announced at the inception of C6CD that SWG had 100,000 subscriptions at that specific point in time. Does is now? Is really the best question to ask, here. The last thread I seen, from current players, the best "guess-timate" was between 20K and 30K. If that is indeed true, then C6CD lost about the same percentage of subscriptions that NGE lost. There is no way, I think that any1 can call that "good".
SOE would probably love it if we all just went away...too bad it's not going to happen.
Pardon but am I to interpret that as you actualy subscribe to games you dont like playing? There is a thread in another forum on pavlovian responses to mmorpg's and the fact that people who obviously dont like a game simply continue to play them and simply complain about that fact. Although I think he is being a bit harsh in his wording he is basically defining a conditioned response and an unhealthy addiction. If you continue to play games you dont like and have no fun in I would say you are indeed conditioned to play for no other reason then its habit and at that point I would classify it as an addiction. So whatever man most people quit games they dont enjoy and go find something fun to play that gives them joy and pleasure to play.
I am not so sure it is addiction. I am not saying it isn't, just there may be more to it than that. We all know that it dosen't take a day to get to the top in our games of choice. Folks develop a strong attachment to their characters and the possesions and assets of said characters. In the case of SWG, with all that was done and the lies told by the devs, I think is more of a deeper hope. I see a lot of venom on both sides..The disgruntled vets (of which I'm one) and the current players. I, myself am over it and have been for years, I don't think of SWG these days (lol). But the folks who are so militant about defending it even the ones who say they hate it or whatever but still play, is an attachment and a hope theat their "suffering" will pay off. It's also hope that they aren't stupid.
Its kind of like a scilon. (scientologist) The reason they are so militant about any criticism on their cult is because they have so much invested, when it comes right down to it. Anyone OT3 or above especially. By the time you get OT3 and learn about Xenu the alien
, you are already in for $300 large. Thats a lot of dough. In the process, you have probly lost everything , and are living in one of thier compounds. In the scilon's perspective HE BETTER DAMN WELL BE RIGHT. Because if he aint he's sunk his life into this thing, and no one likes to think they are that guillable and stupid to fall for a scam like that.
Now for the gamer think of all the subsciption money they have shelled out and all the play time they have invested. And, in the case of SWG, all the BS they have had to put up with. They are in it for the long haul, because there has to be a pay off. There HAS to be. So I can understand BOTH sides. I don't think however, the issue is addiction, just a simple hope that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
The games I recently quit I had a hard time doing because of the investment made, but as a consumer I could not justify paying for a game run by companies who are run like cell phone companies, so in the end it wasn't a hard decision. But I can understand the mentality of: "O next patch it will get fixed" ""Ok I'll give it one more patch." ..3-4-5 years later...
I think this is an extremely insightful and informative post, and it helps to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.
I also take it as a bit of a personal challenge (or wake up call). Could I get myself so invested in something that meets needs for me, that I'd be willing to believe and share falsehoods to try to protect my investment? I hope not, but we all have our blindspots.
I think self-awareness, integrity and a willingness to let something go might be safeguards against this, as well as trying to be open to outside information (humility and open-mindedness if you will).
These dynamics also remind me of the group-think phenomenon, where a closed group of people reinforce their own ideas, largely to safeguard their investment, and they become unable or unwilling to hear information that contradicts their basic assumptions. We studied the occurence of this at NASA for instance in one of my sociology classes. This can happen to very smart people; it's sobering.
Erm (again) this isn't an SOE is evil thread, and it isn't specifically about the loot items in the TCG. That was just one clear example of many.
Even gutboy finally acknowledged the speed advantage of the loot item. A vehicle top speed, fyi, isn't an opinion. It's a fact, created by design and coding. I agree my actual opinions have no more validity than anyone elses, but this um...isn't one.
P.S. If you'd like to copy/paste anything I've ever said about bugs and issues in SWG, about the ToOW, the NGE, the CU, the chapter 6 upgrade, promised server mergers, differences between TCG's in SWG and WoW that is not accurate, please feel free. The information I've shared has been from stratics chats, chats with former SOE devs and others, SOE/LEC ads, summits with Smed etc.. It's been factual information to the best of my human ability.
I could fill a few pages of quotes of accurate information that I (and others) have shared about all of these issues, and more--not opinions either, just solid information--but see that's what I'm really talking about here.
I've done that. Your response? Ignore the facts, say that they haven't been shared, and label them opinions. Like I said, people that read these forums are smart enough to see what's going on.
I'll go the extra mile and give you just a few example of things shared. It might jog your memory:
Dev chats prior to trials of obi wan promised profession revamps. These professions were then deleted immediately following these chats. Fact or opinion?
ToOW buyers were promised new creatures to tame on Mustafar. The NGE would delete CH from the game, but players weren't told until after they paid for the expansion. Fact or opinion?
Group way point arrows still don't work in SOE's busted game. Fact or opinion?
SOE promised collision detection with the FPS NGE. The game still doesn't have it. Fact or opinion?
You can't get tradeable loot items from the TCG without gambling money on booster packs. Fact or opinion?
The loot items include performance enhancements. Fact or opinion?
That's plenty for now. Like I said, I could go on, and on lol, but that is the pattern I'd like to break. If you didn't acknowledge these facts before, why would you acknowledge them now. In light of that, meaningful dialogue is futile.
I've decided that the truth is simply not valued by many people who want to defend SOE's behaviour. I think this is probably because the truth doesn't really serve as a valid defence. If anything it's incriminating. I think that's likely why it's denied and ignored.
I'll take this a step further. Why all the NDA's for staff that leave SOE? Apparently so that they don't share what goes on behind closed door there. If the truth isn't threatening, why legally compel everyone to keep their lips sealed?
No, trying to share truth with SOE and its defenders at this point is beyond futile. I'm afraid, they won't learn until they really hit rock bottom, or get rid of Smed, whichever comes first.
Let's take some of the words out of my mouth that you seemed to have attempted to shove in
I didn't say you were wrong about the vehicle speed. I said I haven't come up against one yet so I couldn't say.
I'm not going to go through all your posts and pick at each one, but the "TCG is illegal" threads you get involved in are more opinion then fact, at least until a real lawyer gets involved in the discussion. As I said, I don't like in the US so I can't agree or disagree that it is, I can only base my view on it from what I know from where I live.
Sure, at the base there's sometimes a fact but the way it's portrayed is quite often opinion. For example (to take from your list you mentioned) yes, Chpater 6 happening is fact but you (or others) portraying it to be bad (or good) is certainly opinion. This example is true for most of your list - there's a fact there but it's usually smothered in an opinion.
As for the NDA's, that's a pretty common practice for any company. Companies don't want their information to fall into the competitors hands. An NDA is required for anyone who leaves the company I work for, as an example.
C'mon Obi. Arc never said the TCG was illegal. He had a discussion on how it could be a form of gambling. he never said chapter 6 was bad, he said more people left becuase of the change, and if it brought fewer people in, then by definition its bad. He never said whether or not chapter 6 was "fun". It cost subs..it was bad in that way..not in gameplay. You are doing exactly what arc said in his OP. Your just asking for it ...i like you (your forum personality anyway)..just trying to help ya out.
Thanks Fik. I also want to say that some of the words Obi thinks I'm shoving into his mouth, didn't come from him, and I realize this. This really isn't all about him (specifically) at all. Many of the comments I'm thinking of didn't come from him. Actually only one of them did, regarding the irrelevant jurisdiction issue, and that wasn't a lie, it was just irrelevant at best, and a misdirection--worst case.
Things that have been outright falsehoods said by people defending SOE on these boards include things like: the TCG loot items are all purely cosmetic (Obi never said that btw); SWG is the only sci-fi sandbox game on the market today; you can do everything in the current SWG that you could in pre-cu with the exception of creature-taming; the only thing people lost with the NGE was their creature handler necklace; the only thing people lost in the NGE was their "master jedi" title; the game changes (pick one) are receiving overwhelming positive feedback; their is no population problem with the game, and more people are joining all the time.
Obi can look at this list and see that he hasn't said most of these things, and hopefully realizes that I haven't accused him of this either.
The point I was making is that there are some people who won't acknowledge things that are objective, verifiable truth; there are some who will share falsehoods apparently to protect their investnment in an MMO, and there are some who seem to do both. There's some kind of spectrum here, in my view, and Obi is not at what I would consider the far end. I think he's on it somewhere though, and yes, that is an opinion.
I definitely share my opinions on these boards. However, when I do so, I label them as such. I also try to share factual information that I think will be of interest to fellow gamers.
Using the loot card example (though this thread still isn't really about that in my view). It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's also a fact that legislation passed in the U.S. in 2006 prohibits online games that risk real money on a chance outcome. These are both facts. It is therefore my opinion that the way SOE runs their TCG is unethical and possibly illegal--someone else will have to render a judgment on that though. I'm retired from law enforcement, and I never was a judge
.
It's also a fact that the waypoint arrow for groups are still broken in the game (last I checked). My opinion is that this is frustrating and absurd.
It's a fact that WoW gives printed trading cards that you own, and that SOE does not. In my opinion, WoW's game provides more value then for the money spent.
It's a fact that Smed said things like, "how would you like to see guild controlled star destroyers, the cu is here to stay, we're going to fast track server mergers, I'm opposed to RMT entering EQ etc. etc., and that his actions then completely contradicted his words. That's a fact. It's my opinion, therefore, that he's bad for the MMO genre and can't be trusted.
If anyone wants to say that I've shared my opinions; yup most definitely. If someone wants to say that this means I haven't shared probably hundreds of objective, verifiable facts along with this, well that's just more b.s., or spin if you will.
I'll also say that this whole spin machine really started up officially as part of the NGE marketting campaign. That's when a lot of vets began reading things about our game, and about us as people, in magazines and on internet forums that were absolute, outright lies, and derogatory on top of it. I think our response is only logical. If someone lies about your experience, your integrity, and your friends, you may be inclined to say, "hey wait a minute, that's not what really happened, let me tell you the whole story." (Unfortunately, SOE or its defenders don't seem to have stopped this campaign to try to discredit it's own players' opinions of their products.)
A lot of my posts have been just that. What I'm realizing now is that most people are well aware of the truth, and the only people that aren't seem to be the few people that can't or won't accept it for some reason. I would say it's widely known that SWG players got the shaft, and that Smed breaks his word time and again. I would say it's widley known that their TCG is a cash-grabbing money scam. I would say it's widely known that SOE does not put a lot of polish into their games, and that they've lost a lot of talent in recent years. At this point, people that don't acknowledge this, probably won't benefit from hearing it again. A lack of information really doesn't seem to be the problem.
Well stated.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Well stated.
/agreed
and I love your quote Val, so true.
Thalos Vipav
Star Wars Galaxies: R.I.P.
I think I hit full by the way about talking about the negative aspects of this game (again) so this is probably my final post until I see something else that is a slightly different spin on the negative that makes me wants to create a thread or say something, but here are some parting remarks
Everyone is aware of the truths but we are all just people after all. Someone once told me that the way to ruin my gaming experience was to read the official forum rants of the gaming site for the game I was playing. That person was right. Every game I have ever played regardless of its quality and polish and whatnot has had mostly negative and very little positive. Every site where someone says something that is not in keeping with whatever theme of the week is usualy gets whimilated because his opinion is not that of the majority.
Statements are made by various companies about things and I can guarantee you that everyone reads what they want to read no matter how objective they are trying to be. If someone is wanting to give a negative "spin" to the game they will dwell on the negatives of the statments (what they aren't working on. the photographs or maybe some guys oversized nose as long as its negative and suits their cause they will use it. If that identical statment is looked at by someone who in fact likes whatever game they are playing they will not see those negatives and only see the positives and can use the exact same statements to bolster their side of the "arguments". I have seen it enough times to know its true. Funny thing is the person who first said this is a game developer in a game I absolutely hate. I then started reading their information releases (news etc) and at that moment I realized that whatever information they released was being taken apart and analyzed to "defend" both the negative and the positive and it was quite amusing.
I also know that every statement made about the defenders in your post goes equally and with the same frequency on the sony/swg "haters" side of the fence. I only know that in your case and I'm not trying to be mean you have in fact ignored that and one false statement that was repeated twice in this thread was in fact not a part of the post because it did not serve the purpose of your post yet it was true that he was either mistaken or lying and has not come back to correct himself so I will assume I guess that he just said it even though it was not true because it served his purpose which was to support his predictions of game shutdowns which to date have not come true. One day when the game does shut down he will of course use it to his means and Im sure it will be imaginative and fun to read.
One thing is for sure I am again tired of this rehashing so I think I will find myself another sit down coffee break passtime cause what you said has been said before and validated before its just yet another repeat of the same old same old only by another poster.
But doesn't that go for you as well or do you consider yourself above it all?
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
"It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion."
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Why this statement is false, look at just one galaxie trade post for someone selling the tradable game cards for INGAME CREDITS. They are selling the cards which could be traded again and again, they become no-trade once they are redeemed.
TCG;
Barn and cantina - 50 mil each
Organiztional Datapad x3 - 20 mil Each
Gardens - 5 mil
Bomar vendor - 10mil
Meatlump Vendor - 10 mil
New Display Case - 15mil
Darth Vader Painting - 10 mil
Deathstar promo card - 15mil
Adrik card - 5mil
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor