Call it petty and call it wrong, but the reason I can't respect the ones enjoying the game right now is similar to what I'd feel if a person was enjoying my stolen car. He may not have been the thief that stole it, and he may be an alright guy, but he is getting his enjoyment from my loss. I still wonder what I did so wrong to be treated like I was by SOE. I played by the rules. I payed my sub fees (2 times over). I didn't do the things that made the game crappy, like AFK dance, spin group, fight club, or base grind. I got every expansion (2 times over), participated on the forums and on TC, and wore the helper tag. I stood up for SOE when people started complaining about bugs and lack of redress. I held out the faith that things would get better. I payed over $850 in total over a span of about three years. Players today don't have to shell out nearly as much to play for a comparable amount of time as I had to. So what did I do wrong? What did I do to deserve having everything I liked about SWG be taken away? Was it because I was only part of 200,000 players, rather than 2 million? Was it because I wasn't "young" or "trendy" enough? Was it because I wasn't part of the "target audience?" I'm sorry if I wasn't what you wanted, Smed, but how can I be held responsible for those things? People may say I'm taking this too personally; that it was just a "business decision," and that I should not think they had anything against me. I don't accept that, because how is it that someone like me gets the shaft when SOE seems to like these new players they have so much better? I mean, they get JTL and an alt free, when I had to pay full price for mine. If SOE was mad that I was just one out of 200,000 (rather than 2 million), what reason do they have for liking these current players so much more than me, seeing as how they are only part of 20,000 people? The real problem with me "letting go" is that as long as players are enjoying themselves there, it makes me think that SOE holds something against me; that somehow I can pay twice as much to them, and I'll never be as important as these folks they have now. That it doesn't matter how popular I make their games, they'll scrap what I like in a heartbeat. By the same token,. it doesn't matter how little these "target audience" people playing now represent, or how little they give to play the game; SOE will bend over backwards not to change anything they like. In short, the problem I have with SOE isn't that they like money too much; it's that my money doesn't have as much value as these current players'. The problem isn't that they don't listen to me; it's that they value the opinion of these 20,000 over the 200,000 I was a part of before. The problem isn't that they took my game away; it's that they took my game away to give it to someone else; someone far less deserving of it, because they pay so much less, and represent so few. If it was a business decision, I could live with it. But how else can a business justify letting go of me and my $850 for some person who pays less, gets more, and does it with 1/10 the numbers? They can't, which means that it isn't a business decision at all, it's personal, because SOE is basically saying that it never mattered that I played by the rules, paid my fees, and did my part. They never really wanted me or my $850 after all, but they took it anyway.
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I think that person is taking the NGE far too personally, and being angry at the people who still play because of SOE's decision -- however poor it may have been -- is grossly misplaced.
{ Mod Edit }
misplaced...perhaps but we are all human. It is probably less anger and more envy. Many of us would love to pay to play the game we once enjoyed and it angers us to see so few people playing the bastardized version (my opinion) of the game whereas they had a viable game with more people before. It is that poor business decision and the continuation of it that also angers people. The cool thing is consumers have the right to be angry and this forum was created to be able to vent that out.
Again, the big difference is that when you paid that money you got your AT-RT. You didn't pay the money for a chance at hopefully getting the AT-RT.
As I said, I don't have any problems with gambling, so I don't see that as a material difference.
It doesn't matter *how* you feel about gambling. The fact is that when you paid money for an AT-RT you *got* an AT-RT. You didn't pay money for a *chance* at getting an AT-RT.
Using the loot card example (though this thread still isn't really about that in my view). It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion. It's also a fact that legislation passed in the U.S. in 2006 prohibits online games that risk real money on a chance outcome. These are both facts. It is therefore my opinion that the way SOE runs their TCG is unethical and possibly illegal--someone else will have to render a judgment on that though. I'm retired from law enforcement, and I never was a judge .
I'm glad the stuff I've cut has been somewhat resolved.
As for the quote I've left above, firstly I think you over emphasis the "performance enhancing" nature of these TCG cards. Yes, they will enhance you but they're certainly not the end-all be-all items. You're at no disadvantage by not having these cards, and many of them have their own downsides.
The buff items for instance, use the same slots as buffs from Mustafar. They're very simillar to the buffs you get from Mustafar but their duration is much shorter and their cool downs are much longer. The pod-racers are apparantly faster then other vehicles but they're alot more expensive to repair (60k I believe, from what people have told me) then the other non-TCG vehicles in the game (7.5k - 15k) - they also don't give a defensive buff while you're mounted on them like some other vehicles do.
You don't have to spend real money to get the booster packs, you can buy them off others for credits or even trade them for other in-game items. This is how I've picked up the packs I've aquired over the last few months. Yes, obviously someone had to buy the packs at some point but they got exactly what they set out to obtain (credits in the main game).
That's pretty balanced Obraik, thanks
Most of my posts are actually in response to something, so it's possible that the context isn't always as clear as I'd like it to be.
My comments about the performance enhancing nature of the loot cards was in response to another poster's claim that "all the loot cards are cosmetic." My response was, "no they're not, the loot vehicles have a higher top speed, and the buff cards give you stat advantages in combat." Rather than simply receiving an "oh yes, you're correct, sorry," I got a couple months of b.s..
Regarding the manner of getting the tradeable loot cards, again this was a response to another poster's claim that there is no advantage to gambling for loot cards, that you can get these same loot cards for "free," possibly on a monthly basis. My point has always been that the "free" cards (or those you get with your subscription) are non-tradeable. Tradeable loot cards are preferred, and in order for them to enter the game, "someone" has to gamble for them. If there was no apparent advantage to gambling for the loot cards, people wouldn't do it; it's really that simple. There is an apparent advantage to gambling for them though, so people do.
Again, rather than just getting a simple, "oh yes, you're correct the cards you get with your sub are non-tradeable, and someone does have to gamble before tradeable cards enter the system," I got more b.s..
This and other comments led me to the conclusion that some people simply can't or won't acknowledge very obvious realities. This doesn't really allow for discussion, and it leaves me wondering what the heck is going on for these people.
For you to acknowledge the speed advantage of the loot vehicles acknowledges my point; they are not purely cosmetic. Thank you very much for that. This has been my very simple message all along. If at the same time you want to point out that podracers may be more expensive to fix, that's fine, and probably good for people to know. No complaints from me about that at all.
"It's a fact that the only way to get tradeable performance enhancing loot is to gamble real cash on TCG booster packs. That's a fact, not an opinion."
Why this statement is false, look at just one galaxie trade post for someone selling the tradable game cards for INGAME CREDITS. They are selling the cards which could be traded again and again, they become no-trade once they are redeemed. TCG;
Barn and cantina - 50 mil each
Organiztional Datapad x3 - 20 mil Each
Gardens - 5 mil
Bomar vendor - 10mil
Meatlump Vendor - 10 mil
New Display Case - 15mil
Darth Vader Painting - 10 mil Deathstar promo card - 15mil
Adrik card - 5mil
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
Congratulations, kobie. You've finally entered the truth-based community. We welcome you with open arms.
Please tell me one thing I've posted in the past that has been a lie. You folks constantly accuse me of "carrying water for SOE," often at the expense of the truth, so please indulge me.
NEWS FLASH: The "truth" is not exclusive property of the so-called "vets."
I cannot say that you lie and I am not going to go look up records or anything however I would say that it is "rare" for you to openly agree with something a "vet" posted about. Could be just me though.
Kobie always gives me a straight answer. No attempts to misdirect or misinform, in my experience. As I understand his posts, he mainly defends current, fellow players, when he feels they are unfairly criticized.
He's also stated that he doesn't work for SOE, and I believe this 100%. Sometimes his statements are passionate, maybe argumentative at times; but hey, so are mine. I try not to be, but sometimes I get frustrated, especially when I think someone is purposely playing mind games, or word games. Call it a pet peeve lol.
Of course it's gambling. Is it illegal gambling? I have no idea. Do I care on those grounds? Well, I wouldn't be a very good libertarian if I was against gambling or believed in many gambling laws (short of fraud being illegal, thus the house can't cheat you, and you can't cheat the house). The same thing with the money "grab." I wouldn't be a very good radical for capitalism if I was against what is being termed as a "money grab" by my veteran brethren. No, I'm not crazy how certain items would be better if crafters had them -- but well, that's not what I would call a game-breaking issue, and that's been going on for a long time. I love my AT-RT. I paid for it. With real money. I would rather have spent in-game time doing things to get it, but it wasn't the end of the world and it hurt no one that I bought it. It didn't take away anything. It added to the game and I still have every crafted speeder I can hold in my pads on most of my characters. I'm still ambivalent on the issue. Sorry to further the hijack on the issue. On the subject of honesty: Kobie's honest. Obraik is pretty honest. Both misrepresent others when they reply, But "we" do that as well. Both sides lie, and have liars. I do think they are a bit worse. Those are certifiable, God-inspired, battle and clinically tested facts
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
Of course it's gambling. Is it illegal gambling? I have no idea. Do I care on those grounds? Well, I wouldn't be a very good libertarian if I was against gambling or believed in many gambling laws (short of fraud being illegal, thus the house can't cheat you, and you can't cheat the house). The same thing with the money "grab." I wouldn't be a very good radical for capitalism if I was against what is being termed as a "money grab" by my veteran brethren. No, I'm not crazy how certain items would be better if crafters had them -- but well, that's not what I would call a game-breaking issue, and that's been going on for a long time. I love my AT-RT. I paid for it. With real money. I would rather have spent in-game time doing things to get it, but it wasn't the end of the world and it hurt no one that I bought it. It didn't take away anything. It added to the game and I still have every crafted speeder I can hold in my pads on most of my characters. I'm still ambivalent on the issue. Sorry to further the hijack on the issue. On the subject of honesty: Kobie's honest. Obraik is pretty honest. Both misrepresent others when they reply, But "we" do that as well. Both sides lie, and have liars. I do think they are a bit worse. Those are certifiable, God-inspired, battle and clinically tested facts
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
Especially when they are setup to the houses advantage to start.
Again, the big difference is that when you paid that money you got your AT-RT. You didn't pay the money for a chance at hopefully getting the AT-RT.
As I said, I don't have any problems with gambling, so I don't see that as a material difference.
It doesn't matter *how* you feel about gambling. The fact is that when you paid money for an AT-RT you *got* an AT-RT. You didn't pay money for a *chance* at getting an AT-RT.
Of course it's gambling. Is it illegal gambling? I have no idea. Do I care on those grounds? Well, I wouldn't be a very good libertarian if I was against gambling or believed in many gambling laws (short of fraud being illegal, thus the house can't cheat you, and you can't cheat the house). The same thing with the money "grab." I wouldn't be a very good radical for capitalism if I was against what is being termed as a "money grab" by my veteran brethren. No, I'm not crazy how certain items would be better if crafters had them -- but well, that's not what I would call a game-breaking issue, and that's been going on for a long time. I love my AT-RT. I paid for it. With real money. I would rather have spent in-game time doing things to get it, but it wasn't the end of the world and it hurt no one that I bought it. It didn't take away anything. It added to the game and I still have every crafted speeder I can hold in my pads on most of my characters. I'm still ambivalent on the issue. Sorry to further the hijack on the issue. On the subject of honesty: Kobie's honest. Obraik is pretty honest. Both misrepresent others when they reply, But "we" do that as well. Both sides lie, and have liars. I do think they are a bit worse. Those are certifiable, God-inspired, battle and clinically tested facts
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
In any game the house can manipulate the odds of winning; and in any game including the card game, that amounts to fraud (well when they change the odds or the game AFTER you've placed your bet).
I doubt SOE is manipulating the odds of the game. If they did, that would be reason to shut it down. I don't see any reason to suspect that.
As always I am open to the facts as I understand them changing and my opinion changing accordingly. So far, I'm still ambivalent about the whole thing.
Comments
Again, the big difference is that when you paid that money you got your AT-RT. You didn't pay the money for a chance at hopefully getting the AT-RT.
As I said, I don't have any problems with gambling, so I don't see that as a material difference.
fishermage.blogspot.com
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{ Mod Delete }I think that person is taking the NGE far too personally, and being angry at the people who still play because of SOE's decision -- however poor it may have been -- is grossly misplaced.
{ Mod Edit }
misplaced...perhaps but we are all human. It is probably less anger and more envy. Many of us would love to pay to play the game we once enjoyed and it angers us to see so few people playing the bastardized version (my opinion) of the game whereas they had a viable game with more people before. It is that poor business decision and the continuation of it that also angers people. The cool thing is consumers have the right to be angry and this forum was created to be able to vent that out.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Again, the big difference is that when you paid that money you got your AT-RT. You didn't pay the money for a chance at hopefully getting the AT-RT.
As I said, I don't have any problems with gambling, so I don't see that as a material difference.
It doesn't matter *how* you feel about gambling. The fact is that when you paid money for an AT-RT you *got* an AT-RT. You didn't pay money for a *chance* at getting an AT-RT.
I'm glad the stuff I've cut has been somewhat resolved.
As for the quote I've left above, firstly I think you over emphasis the "performance enhancing" nature of these TCG cards. Yes, they will enhance you but they're certainly not the end-all be-all items. You're at no disadvantage by not having these cards, and many of them have their own downsides.
The buff items for instance, use the same slots as buffs from Mustafar. They're very simillar to the buffs you get from Mustafar but their duration is much shorter and their cool downs are much longer. The pod-racers are apparantly faster then other vehicles but they're alot more expensive to repair (60k I believe, from what people have told me) then the other non-TCG vehicles in the game (7.5k - 15k) - they also don't give a defensive buff while you're mounted on them like some other vehicles do.
You don't have to spend real money to get the booster packs, you can buy them off others for credits or even trade them for other in-game items. This is how I've picked up the packs I've aquired over the last few months. Yes, obviously someone had to buy the packs at some point but they got exactly what they set out to obtain (credits in the main game).
That's pretty balanced Obraik, thanks
Most of my posts are actually in response to something, so it's possible that the context isn't always as clear as I'd like it to be.
My comments about the performance enhancing nature of the loot cards was in response to another poster's claim that "all the loot cards are cosmetic." My response was, "no they're not, the loot vehicles have a higher top speed, and the buff cards give you stat advantages in combat." Rather than simply receiving an "oh yes, you're correct, sorry," I got a couple months of b.s..
Regarding the manner of getting the tradeable loot cards, again this was a response to another poster's claim that there is no advantage to gambling for loot cards, that you can get these same loot cards for "free," possibly on a monthly basis. My point has always been that the "free" cards (or those you get with your subscription) are non-tradeable. Tradeable loot cards are preferred, and in order for them to enter the game, "someone" has to gamble for them. If there was no apparent advantage to gambling for the loot cards, people wouldn't do it; it's really that simple. There is an apparent advantage to gambling for them though, so people do.
Again, rather than just getting a simple, "oh yes, you're correct the cards you get with your sub are non-tradeable, and someone does have to gamble before tradeable cards enter the system," I got more b.s..
This and other comments led me to the conclusion that some people simply can't or won't acknowledge very obvious realities. This doesn't really allow for discussion, and it leaves me wondering what the heck is going on for these people.
For you to acknowledge the speed advantage of the loot vehicles acknowledges my point; they are not purely cosmetic. Thank you very much for that. This has been my very simple message all along. If at the same time you want to point out that podracers may be more expensive to fix, that's fine, and probably good for people to know. No complaints from me about that at all.
True, but for that card to enter into circulation, someone has to pay money for it. Not saying that's right or wrong, just clarifying.
Congratulations, kobie. You've finally entered the truth-based community. We welcome you with open arms.
Please tell me one thing I've posted in the past that has been a lie. You folks constantly accuse me of "carrying water for SOE," often at the expense of the truth, so please indulge me.
NEWS FLASH: The "truth" is not exclusive property of the so-called "vets."
I cannot say that you lie and I am not going to go look up records or anything however I would say that it is "rare" for you to openly agree with something a "vet" posted about. Could be just me though.
Kobie always gives me a straight answer. No attempts to misdirect or misinform, in my experience. As I understand his posts, he mainly defends current, fellow players, when he feels they are unfairly criticized.
He's also stated that he doesn't work for SOE, and I believe this 100%. Sometimes his statements are passionate, maybe argumentative at times; but hey, so are mine. I try not to be, but sometimes I get frustrated, especially when I think someone is purposely playing mind games, or word games. Call it a pet peeve lol.
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
Especially when they are setup to the houses advantage to start.
--------
Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Anyone heard how well SOE is doing with their new business model..card games, item shops..ect.?
Is it a massive success? Or too early to tell?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Again, the big difference is that when you paid that money you got your AT-RT. You didn't pay the money for a chance at hopefully getting the AT-RT.
As I said, I don't have any problems with gambling, so I don't see that as a material difference.
It doesn't matter *how* you feel about gambling. The fact is that when you paid money for an AT-RT you *got* an AT-RT. You didn't pay money for a *chance* at getting an AT-RT.
So what?
fishermage.blogspot.com
That's a pretty good summary I think Fisher, of posters on all sides of various issues ^_^. Jumping in on your analysis of the loot items, one of my peeves is that SOE can manipulate the odds of winning. This isn't allowed in legitimate games of chance: by that I mean gov't approved or sanctioned. The odds of winning are publicly verified. I'm not against gambling either, but I understand the safeguards that are put in place to prevent the house from rigging the game, and I notice when those safeguards seem to be missing.
In any game the house can manipulate the odds of winning; and in any game including the card game, that amounts to fraud (well when they change the odds or the game AFTER you've placed your bet).
I doubt SOE is manipulating the odds of the game. If they did, that would be reason to shut it down. I don't see any reason to suspect that.
As always I am open to the facts as I understand them changing and my opinion changing accordingly. So far, I'm still ambivalent about the whole thing.
fishermage.blogspot.com