If you liked the atmosphere and the feeling of the classic WoW in an environment that truly feels epic and with some strong storytelling elements thrown in the mix (you have to see phasing technology used in storytelling to understand what I'm trying to say), you'll love the new expansion.
It's all about expectations really. They definitely expanded from the classic WoW in the proper direction (in my opinion).
(Borean Tundra, the starting town, when you see an NPC line of Alliance recruits waiting in front of the recruiting officer, then he calls you to come straight in front of the line because you're a recognised hero of the past. Little things like that are all over the place and add up tremendously to the overall atmosphere.)
From what I understand of the OP, it is not that he hates WoW because WoW is a crap game and is too popular and should splode for being played by 12 million people. My interpretation is that the use of "Hate: was to convey that WoW - due to it's popularity - has in a way drained the market. There were a lot of promising MMOs that haven't been able to get a foothold in the industry because WoW has such a large foothold. Games like Fury have closed down very early after going public simply because people would rather play WoW.
The love and thanks is due to the fact that WoW has opened the market to the public for future MMOs.
"Why I hate WoW,..." in a thread title may sound like a flame, but it did a good job of getting attention for itself.
We are not saying WoW is crap; to the contrary. I've said it is a good game and so has the OP. Do not take this as a hate crusade saying that WoW is a bad game, because it is not.
/ Agree - that is exactly what I have been trying to say. It was not my intention to flame WoW - I probably could of made that cleare though...
Xasa - It does sound like they improved parts of the game i did enjoy, and do of other MMo's (story etc.) You actually are tempting me back
Customization is my favorite part of MMOs. The only ones who don't care about character customization are the people with no creativity. Just because it isn't important to you does not mean it is not important to others. For example: I really don't care about MMO combat. Others must not really care about it either then, right? I mean all that really happens in combat anyway is either you die or the mob dies. To give the devs more time to focus on important issues We should have one skill called "crunch" and one weapon called "stick", the stick would go crunch on the mob and there would be a coin toss to see which one dies. Imagine how little time it would take to load an adventure zone if everybody could only use one skill. Particle effects and combat actions should be eliminated too because they eat up valuable bandwith that should be used on my fancy textured outfits. see how illogical it sounds when it is reversed?
But customization and creativity should go beyond that - it should absorb the very essence of men playing it, not creating it. Developers need to evolve this aspect of MMOGs to both embrace and encourage individuality among potential players. I believe in this way, the so-called grind we experience will become less of a repetitive task of higher numbers and more about the conscious evolution of a player's thought into set of the game: you should not conform to the game, but the game should conform to you.
Customization is my favorite part of MMOs. The only ones who don't care about character customization are the people with no creativity. Just because it isn't important to you does not mean it is not important to others. For example: I really don't care about MMO combat. Others must not really care about it either then, right? I mean all that really happens in combat anyway is either you die or the mob dies. To give the devs more time to focus on important issues We should have one skill called "crunch" and one weapon called "stick", the stick would go crunch on the mob and there would be a coin toss to see which one dies. Imagine how little time it would take to load an adventure zone if everybody could only use one skill. Particle effects and combat actions should be eliminated too because they eat up valuable bandwith that should be used on my fancy textured outfits. see how illogical it sounds when it is reversed?
But customization and creativity should go beyond that - it should absorb the very essence of men playing it, not creating it. Developers need to evolve this aspect of MMOGs to both embrace and encourage individuality among potential players. I believe in this way, the so-called grind we experience will become less of a repetitive task of higher numbers and more about the conscious evolution of a player's thought into set of the game: you should not conform to the game, but the game should conform to you.
I tend to agree, but I dont belive any MMO has done this completely. Galaxies was close, but it still had its reptative grind, even if it was an enjoyable one and unique for each skill set.
I also miss the old galaxies. Im surprised they didn't go back right away when they saw the huge drop.
Saying you hate wow is almost like being a racist, and i still don't understand why, since the pvp is quite boring after a while, its almost not an mmo since everything is instanced, and the parts that are not are almost dead or just boring. (based on pre wotlk).
Stopped a while before that, since every expansion blizzard releases makes all the gear you have completely useless.
Im hoping Darkfall release will go well, then at least there is something with good ffa pvp to play.
RvR will in general fail a bit, since the end game content will usually suck hard. (war and soon aion).
You know Zorndof your very annoying. The posts here even if they are their first are not giant flame WoW posts. Grow up, the game has its flaws just like every other game. On topic, OP I somewhat agree with you. But my complaint of WoW is that it is seen as "casual" but anything but casual. The game is not for the Hardcore either. Its for those that think they are. The game requires nothing more than time. And the people with more skill and less time can not get farther than the people with more time. Another complaint about the game is how gear centric it is. After playing my DK and Warrior to 80, its just like it was in BC, yet 10x worse. Once you hit max level all the gear you got up utnill that level is completely useless just like it was in BC. Doesnt matter if you have level 75-78 blues, the level 80 blues destroy them and then the epics are even worse. Anyways I could go on and on what could be improved in WoW. But it is for sure not the best MMO out there.
Of course I am annoying, because I see things in posts which are ridiculous.
The OP complains about lack of character specs and than just happily puts GW as the game he plays.
I say ROFL. Of course I am annoying by showing obvious points like these and show the guy is posting his FIRST post on mmorpg.com.
Just like the guys above who are posting for the first time on mmorpg-wowhate.com.... Yeah.
And it always baffles me when you guys all say: "But it is for sure not the best MMO out there. "
So which one it it? Let us laugh too.
But you are doing the exactly same thing arent you about outher games? maby he plays gw and prefer it over wow, maby i play lotro and prefer it over wow.. maby you prefer wow over everything else.
Whats best can be discussed for ages, and we will never get anywhere.. because different people prefer different things.
What is a clone or not has nothing to do with anything, theres more to a game than just the theme. I admitt i have played wow for around 3 years, and thats exactly the reason why i dont play it anymore..
you can compare it with your favorite music hit og favorite movie.. is that favorite the same today, as it whas 3-4 years ago? maby if you only watched it or listned to it once in a while. But thats not what im refering too, what im refering too, is if you watched that movie many times every day, and listned to that track maby times every day for 3 years.. you get burned out at some point.
I tend to agree, but I dont belive any MMO has done this completely. Galaxies was close, but it still had its reptative grind, even if it was an enjoyable one and unique for each skill set. Games conforming to us..sounds like heaven?
Well, there was one MMO that I think pulled it off, in a way. Second Life. However, the way they structured and made it only really made it viable to people who want to make money off the business of virtual commodities, so people don't even consider it a 'game' (even though it is). I think the developers of Second Life had some major concept flaws when making the game: the commodities made in the game can only be as valuable as the people make them out to be. It's like taking risk on buying expensive art that you hope one day will out-bid the price you bought it for, and in Second Life that price is time and Linden Labs servers. Personnally I wouldn't ever trust the later of the two so I don't bother playing Second Life. That, and the fact that the servers lag beyond belief.
Anything you do more than once could be considered a 'grind'. Star Wars Galaxies had an unbelievable unbalanced grind when it came to artisan profressions - smaller schemes left smaller experience but still the same amount of time had to be taken, while the larger schematics took more resources, those resources can be taken right from the ground even when you are logged off. So architects had a real easy way through their 'grind' while I was trying to become a weaponsmith and to get just one out of the sixteen bars seem like forever. (After that I quit artisan and became a commando because I was just so addicted to the flamethrower, heh)
My idea is to have no grind at all, but have the players learn from experience. What I mean is, whenever someone starts off on something, it is never a grind. Why? Because they have to first learn how to be good at it before they can really do it well. When I first played my rogue in World of Warcraft, it was the first time I played a class that could be in stealth. Because of this, I had to learn, or teach myself, how to go use stealth in the best of ways so that I could survive. So to that, a player that becomes a crafter or artisan shouldn't be given all the statistical information, but instead the player should inform the user who made it and then the player using it should find out just how fast he or she can pull the trigger/hit people with it and with what damage by and if there is any effects to it. In this way, a crafter will learn how to make the best weapons in the game without the restrictions many of the traditional MMOGs place on them, and it will make them unique.
It's these kinds of ideas, the ideas where the game conforms to your own uniqueness and originality, that should be played off of. Not somebody elses.
Well, there was one MMO that I think pulled it off, in a way. Second Life. However, the way they structured and made it only really made it viable to people who want to make money off the business of virtual commodities, so people don't even consider it a 'game' (even though it is). I think the developers of Second Life had some major concept flaws when making the game: the commodities made in the game can only be as valuable as the people make them out to be. It's like taking risk on buying expensive art that you hope one day will out-bid the price you bought it for, and in Second Life that price is time and Linden Labs servers. Personnally I wouldn't ever trust the later of the two so I don't bother playing Second Life. That, and the fact that the servers lag beyond belief. Anything you do more than once could be considered a 'grind'. Star Wars Galaxies had an unbelievable unbalanced grind when it came to artisan profressions - smaller schemes left smaller experience but still the same amount of time had to be taken, while the larger schematics took more resources, those resources can be taken right from the ground even when you are logged off. So architects had a real easy way through their 'grind' while I was trying to become a weaponsmith and to get just one out of the sixteen bars seem like forever. (After that I quit artisan and became a commando because I was just so addicted to the flamethrower, heh) My idea is to have no grind at all, but have the players learn from experience. What I mean is, whenever someone starts off on something, it is never a grind. Why? Because they have to first learn how to be good at it before they can really do it well. When I first played my rogue in World of Warcraft, it was the first time I played a class that could be in stealth. Because of this, I had to learn, or teach myself, how to go use stealth in the best of ways so that I could survive. So to that, a player that becomes a crafter or artisan shouldn't be given all the statistical information, but instead the player should inform the user who made it and then the player using it should find out just how fast he or she can pull the trigger/hit people with it and with what damage by and if there is any effects to it. In this way, a crafter will learn how to make the best weapons in the game without the restrictions many of the traditional MMOGs place on them, and it will make them unique. It's these kinds of ideas, the ideas where the game conforms to your own uniqueness and originality, that should be played off of. Not somebody elses. (Sorry I got off-topic)
Off-topic yes. Good point. Yes.
In a way that idea is similar to mine.
In the example of a crafter, a player couldnt just gather the materials and click build.
The blueprint would need to be gotten but it would only be a basic outline. the quality of the materials, the changes in materials, what equipment is used to build it and even perhaps some sort of minigame to dictate how it was built. For convenieces sake you could save the process so you wouldnt have to do it everytime you wanted an exact replica..
wait.. wasnt the topic WoW??
In a way though this is what i mean - I think great titles, not always sandbox, could stem from the end of WoW, since the market is now so much bigger.
If you don't want to flame and suddenly after 3 years have the urge to post 6 posts in a row perhaps change the title. I hate WoW is the most popular on mmorpg.com. As for the award of LOTRO on this site: that was 600 votes guy. 600 (probably a lot first one created posters) voted for LOTRO as BEST MMORPG on this WORLD WIDE web site of mmorpg's. That's why I am pissed off today, because I wondered why all of the sudden the invasion of body snatchers again in this Wow forum thread. The game is just too popular in the eyes of too much frustrated people: hatred is the result and I ve seen it all: I can see through trolls the minute they walk in here. So you dye your armour in GW and that's why it's better. And I have to accept it.
I chopse the title so it could clearly show that i have conflicting views on WoW, and because there are aspects of it I do hate.
Does it matter how LOTRO won? So what if it was 600? Where were the 11 million WoW players? as other forum topics have said it is because the greater part of the WoW community doesnt care for the rest of the MMO. SOME do care. SOME do come onto websites like these - but not all.
You have flamed me once again and called me a troll and yet i have not intetntionally flamed you. I am no troll. I posted this to see what other people though about my overall opinion (that WoW should be thanked even if it is only average - and that it isnt average for everyone, some disklike greatly others love)
And not once did i say GW was better, once again you have not read my post completely, or have misunderstood it. I merely pointed out that i currently play GW and not WoW. I have spendt more time on WoW then GW. although i never said 3 years once again throwing words in my mouth (post :P:P)
I pointed out that dye allowed more customisation and that yes in THAT regard it is better then WoW - but i never said overall it isnt. WoW Has far more depth then GW, GW has a nicer community (that is a genraelsiation do not take it for all GW players are nice or all of WoW sucks - it is merely an average that i PERSONALLY experienced), WoW has gear, GW doesnt.
They are not the same game, and I do not compare them In enough way for me to decide. GW is diffrent from almost all MMO's starting from the method of payment
This is all of track though. To summasie for those who skipped ahead. I do not think WoW is bad, i think it is average. The reason i said i hate it is because there are players of WoW that are illogical and belive that WoW is perfect despite not playing other MMOS (It is true other games feature this, but i persoanaly feel they are more proment/more of them in WoW).
And ABOVE ALL I LOVE WoW for what it has done for the MMO community(Or what it will do when it eventualyl falls, although who knows when that will happen) 11.5 million players looking for a new MMO could end with the birth of some really innovative MMO's (I M O). Can you please stop flaming Zandorf so we can have a proper discussion.
EDIT: Xasa, i can honestly say I have not tried WOTLK, so if has improved that is good to hear, this does mean I wouldnt be able to properly tell if it is now "The best MMO".
That said, I ahve read on the features, and while it certainyl added lots, I personally felt there was not the right ones to make me go back. Dont mistake this for me think WOTLK is bad - i dont know. Merely based on what I know I would nto go back.
Would you say it is the best MMO?
2EDIT: Also, do you honestly belive I would get less flame if the title was "Why I Hate WoW players, Love WoW, and Thank Blizzard"? And isnit the only flame ive gotten so far from you?
Besides, what lesson can Zorndorf possibly give on matters of trolling, when he took the trouble of going over to the Warhammer Online section and get this thread started.
In his words:
The game is selling at 40% of its orginal price everywhere and it's the joke in every EU town.
Just listen at the (ex)players and comments.
Badly designed.
Badly executed.
A joke in RPG, PVE and yes PvP.
And in comparaison with WotLK it is years behind the quality of PVE and ... very much PvP.
In Lake Wintergrasp every night there are massive battles....In War you can play ONE scenario per Tier.
The game is the worst MMORPG ever designed.
And an example of how designers can interpret gaming fun and bad taste.
I'm not a fan of Warhammer Online -- tried it out, wasn't impressed, crashes to desktop finally overwhelmed me and I quit after seven days. But "a joke"? No, not really; more like a disappointment to those who had enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot -- and ironically, one aspect came back often in criticisms people made of Warhammer, namely, that it had been made too much like WoW... Not the lore (from what I hear, the tabletop Warhammer wrote it and WoW just ripped it off), but gameplay, graphics, this sort of thing.
But Warhammer Online being considered A Threat, it must be derided, even on its own turf. That's the problem. Never mind that WoW isn't struggling, far from it, just having the possibility of a contender is too much. They don't want any other game around that could steal from WoW's market share. Blizzard's little minions, in other words, better than viral marketing because they come free of charge.
Likewise, as we've both experienced, all criticism of WoW must be crushed. Even if you just say that you don't like the game, because if you don't, the problem is you, not their beloved WoW enjoyed by 11 million people, twice the population of New Zealand or whatever. Maybe in some cases that's right, maybe the game isn't your cup of tea; but it becomes a problem when you're told that you must enjoy a game.
Which is precisely what this Zorndorf guy is saying. In my case, he just went around saying I didn't really play the game for six weeks and that because I only played to level 46, I cannot appreciate the undeniable greatness of WoW, including its PvE (what was that grinding then?). Yet I think I'm quite capable of knowing when I'm getting bored, am I not?
These days, I'm reading the section on Darkfall, and it too has its staunch fanbois. But of the two, WoW's are by far the most dangerous, because they can always point to their beloved game's subscriber figures. A failing game (or, as in Darkfall's case, an absent one) makes things tougher to defend, but here Blizzard's bottom line backs them up at every stage, even though the word "pandering" comes to mind.
What WoW's fanbois are, however, is superfluous. The game doesn't need them, which makes them even more infuriating when they are arrogant and stubborn -- like Zorndorf.
So LOTRO won. Boo. Hoo. Evil MMORPG site doesn't like WoW. It's more like this site doesn't like anything. Only fanbois cry persecution -- and they do so for any game, on any forum.
What the WoW fanboi must be taught, however, is modesty and, especially for the WoW fanboi, magnanimity. Liking Warhammer Online isn't the death knell of WoW, you know.
Off-topic yes. Good point. Yes. In a way that idea is similar to mine. In the example of a crafter, a player couldnt just gather the materials and click build. The blueprint would need to be gotten but it would only be a basic outline. the quality of the materials, the changes in materials, what equipment is used to build it and even perhaps some sort of minigame to dictate how it was built. For convenieces sake you could save the process so you wouldnt have to do it everytime you wanted an exact replica.. wait.. wasnt the topic WoW?? In a way though this is what i mean - I think great titles, not always sandbox, could stem from the end of WoW, since the market is now so much bigger.
(Off-Topic)
Unlike Star Wars Galaxies, I don't want blueprints, or schematics just magically given to the player by grinding, I want the player himself to make the blueprint or schematic and allow that blueprint/schematic to be used by other players. In this aspect, a person could concieve their own creations rather than the intentions of someone else (the developers).
I think the thing I want to stress is that you shouldn't be limited based on the grind, like Star Wars Galaxies, but your own ability to learn and grow from the process you learn. Maybe as you and your avatar both start understanding more, your 'brain capacity' will fill up until you can't learn any more.
Besides, what lesson can Zorndorf possibly give on matters of trolling, when he took the trouble of going over to the Warhammer Online section and get this thread started. In his words: The game is selling at 40% of its orginal price everywhere and it's the joke in every EU town. Just listen at the (ex)players and comments. Badly designed. Badly executed. A joke in RPG, PVE and yes PvP. And in comparaison with WotLK it is years behind the quality of PVE and ... very much PvP. In Lake Wintergrasp every night there are massive battles....In War you can play ONE scenario per Tier. The game is the worst MMORPG ever designed. And an example of how designers can interpret gaming fun and bad taste. I'm not a fan of Warhammer Online -- tried it out, wasn't impressed, crashes to desktop finally overwhelmed me and I quit after seven days. But "a joke"? No, not really; more like a disappointment to those who had enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot -- and ironically, one aspect came back often in criticisms people made of Warhammer, namely, that it had been made too much like WoW... Not the lore (from what I hear, the tabletop Warhammer wrote it and WoW just ripped it off), but gameplay, graphics, this sort of thing. But Warhammer Online being considered A Threat, it must be derided, even on its own turf. That's the problem. Never mind that WoW isn't struggling, far from it, just having the possibility of a contender is too much. They don't want any other game around that could steal from WoW's market share. Blizzard's little minions, in other words, better than viral marketing because they come free of charge. Likewise, as we've both experienced, all criticism of WoW must be crushed. Even if you just say that you don't like the game, because if you don't, the problem is you, not their beloved WoW enjoyed by 11 million people, twice the population of New Zealand or whatever. Maybe in some cases that's right, maybe the game isn't your cup of tea; but it becomes a problem when you're told that you must enjoy a game. Which is precisely what this Zorndorf guy is saying. In my case, he just went around saying I didn't really play the game for six weeks and that because I only played to level 46, I cannot appreciate the undeniable greatness of WoW, including its PvE (what was that grinding then?). Yet I think I'm quite capable of knowing when I'm getting bored, am I not? These days, I'm reading the section on Darkfall, and it too has its staunch fanbois. But of the two, WoW's are by far the most dangerous, because they can always point to their beloved game's subscriber figures. A failing game (or, as in Darkfall's case, an absent one) makes things tougher to defend, but here Blizzard's bottom line backs them up at every stage, even though the word "pandering" comes to mind. What WoW's fanbois are, however, is superfluous. The game doesn't need them, which makes them even more infuriating when they are arrogant and stubborn -- like Zorndorf. So LOTRO won. Boo. Hoo. Evil MMORPG site doesn't like WoW. It's more like this site doesn't like anything. Only fanbois cry persecution -- and they do so for any game, on any forum. What the WoW fanboi must be taught, however, is modesty and, especially for the WoW fanboi, magnanimity. Liking Warhammer Online isn't the death knell of WoW, you know.
Note on the lore side of things: Yes, allegdly Warcraft ripped from the table-top game. Only fact we know is Warhammer came first.
I haven't played WAR either, but from what I have heard it is similar to WoW in many regards - which makes me wonder how someone can flame it who loves WoW...
I belive LOTRO won simply because, as said before, most WoW playesrs avoid sites that aren't solely WoW based. That doesn't make them all fanboy's, but one could expect several of them to be.
- Your right though, WoW "fanboys" use the stats to argue the game is better. Heres some new guys.
1. 6 billion people in the world. only 11 million play WoW - and you can bet there is a whole lot more that play games in general then that.
2. Over 11 million people thought the world was flat. "It LOOKS flat!"
3. WoW isn't perfect. Im going to avoid saying how good it is because its a matter of opinion, but since there is NO SUCH THING as a perfect MMO, WoW isn't it. And to the fanboys - belive it or not some people actually don't enjoy playing it. Deal with it.
It should be 'Don't hate the game, hate the players"
>_>
(Off Topic)
Mack - An idea so good good im suprised i didnt think of it (jokes)
great idea! Now all we need to do is find a developer who wants to make a crafting based MMO - or rather an MMO that makes crafting-only characters viable.
Wait a second (once again), wasnt there already a game like that? Called Star Wars Universe or something?? :P
(They did miuss the make your own blueprint part though)
So the newly created posters reunit again to piss again on Wow and surely its fans. Irelevant point. New posters have opinions to. MacDonalds, stolen Warhammer lore (that's a good laugh), carebear, etc ... Vomit time. The more players Wow gets, the more hate against it and its players. Simple; Evidence of this? "In search of the pure MMORPG", yeah sure. In the meantime we have the worst bunch of games published as Wow killers. Hyped through the roof by mmorpg.com and its haters. Never mention any WoW killers, only that WoW would eventually die. "all good things come to an end". I have no idea when only that it will one day happen. While these games don't even have the first required element of a fantasy MMORPG: a true 3D world. Only bordered "tunnel view" paths with 2D/3D borders of trees and mountains. You may NOT comment on them: you may only vomit over Wow in these pages. Where do i begin here? What games mentioned are missing this? Who says 3D is a requiement of MMORPGS? - Arguably the first online RPGS were TEXT BASED. And tunnel view? If you had been READING any of this thread you would see there are multiple points of view all having a FAIR discussion. --------------- grtz for those believing the 600 LotrO voters (and spec created alts) on mmorpg.com represent anything else but a bunch of very frustrated grognards. Gratz for you thinking its means something. IT DOESNT MATTER WHO WON! All it has been used for in this thread as evidence for is that there isn't a majority of WoW players on this site. Says a lot about the REAL number of "newly created visits" this site has.... You mean newely created users? Where did you get the stats? and beyond that - where were the 11 million players of WoW signing up? Again this is almost irrelevant Oh I forgot the best element of the Wow haters: It is the fault of Wow that these games don't walk like their designers talked. (which was the essence of the OP's message to come back on topic). Have you not read anything? I didnt say anthing at all along these lines! Keep up your Wow hating jobs, because you're going to get a lot more frustration in the coming years. I am not a WoW hater. If you read anything more than the title YOU WOULD SEE THAT. I am not frustrated at WoW, merely at you.
I gave you chances Zorndorf. I didnt flame you or call you a troll, i even defended you and said that you probably had a good point to make between your insults.
Ive had enough. Please stop trolling this thread. I am not a WoW hater, and you have my opinions completely twisted. To top it off you have completely disregarded me when I say this is all my opinion not fact (albet using evidence to support my opinion).
I request you either actually read my post and reply with some sort of a point, or don't post at all. Ive had enough of you flaming me. If you do post anymore i will merely ignore it.
I suggest for other people in this thread to do the same.
I kept the name as it is because it demonstrates my conflicting view. Anyone who would post on this thread based on the name isn't worth replying to. Also, this is my only thread with the line I hate wow".
TBH im suprised i havent caught flame for saying i love WoW aswell...
As before though i could of called it "Why i hate some wow players, love wow and thank blizzard" but im pretty sure i would cop flak for that aswell.
You are right however - I could have picked a better title. But i picked this one and it would be contradictory of me to change it now, so im sticking with it. If I do ever repost ill be suer to avoid saying "I hate WoW" in it.
Have you ever seen WoW faces up close? Talking about running with sticks shoved up their arse, these guys have their anuses on their heads.
The WoW grind is so amazingly suckish and boring, I don't know how i ever got to 31.
Get 10 of these items off mobs that have a .00001 drop rate.
2million kills later.
You get 3 xp.
YES! only 70million mroe to go to get to lvl 70. And yes, It is approximately 70million exp.
WoW MIGHT be bearable if they made crafting useful, or a crafter class. I was a weaponsmith in SWG, but I respecced partially to Teras Kasi. I was not only able to make USEFUL weapons, but i was able to hold my own against those damn rebels. In WoW, all the classes are either UP or OP.
Why Wow is loved: For heaven's sake, do you have to sound like ad copy in between parts of downright abuse? Timing - You have 20 minutes, hop in and play a BG or do two or three solo quests. - You have 2 hours: you look at the daily heroic/dungeon, get in have fun. Always PvP on within a minute. - You have a free night: do MASSIVE world PvP now, a Raid, work on the professions or reputations and chat with the friends, do some old content and roleplay (go to a wedding or in game pic-nic). - You log in at 08.00 AM on a working day: lots of players and no options lost (except perhaps raiding). Lore: 69.000 pages of very good and for 98% rather consistent Lore (not even Middle Earth is 100% consistent). Good to know that Haris Pilton and references to the developers are also consistent in your book. And are you suggesting that somehow Warhamcraft lore is on par with Tolkien? That's my pet peeve these days btw. The Lore of NPC's can have pages and pages of history tx to the earlier Warcraft series and the books just keep coming (www.wowwiki.com). Underwater worlds, personal flying mounts make for the richest PVE seamless worlds possible. No "mountain" borders. This technique uses masses amount of resources and devlopment money. And since WotLK this world changes .. a lot, according to what you as an individual player unlocks... Very new to mmo's and its future phasing technology. Why should that matter? It's like saying Film X had nice special effects; if there's no plot, means absolutely nothing. Challenge: Rated and ladder based PvP. Players can be the best of 200K rated PvP players through Battlegroups (clustered servers). Higest titles and PvP gear are only given to a few "Godly" players. Some in between folk can have other titles/gear. But ranking is there and gives an extra dimension. It's an instance. Once you step out of it, it means absolutely nothing. Impact on the world: zilch. The rest of this section, I don't really care about. Carebear ... in a game where only 1 out of 200 K people gets a title based on match rankings? Don't think that goal is "easy". PVE used to be VERY challeging in TBC (Sunwell smashed up a lot of elite guilds). In the meantime WotLK has only 3 introducing Raids because the average people needed to be motivated again and lured away from the BG's. The next raids will be hopefully NOT TOO difficult because some cry now. Balance in PvP: Tx arena ! You may hate it, but the system itself shows which classes are overpowered and which classes will need a boost. 4 weeks after the PvP launch, we already have 3.08 on the PTR and 4 classes being nerved and others boosted. All tx to the Arena rating system. Other MMO's? Only the designers say so they are balanced. No controls possible. Polishment: Avatars movement in Wow is the best of all MMORPG's I played and to the contrary what you said I played them "longer than 1 hour". Yes I am spoiled by the avatar controls in Wow and don't seem to enjoy anything less these days. I hate it when characters are walking with a stick in their asses (Lotro), being clunky and unresponsive in spells (War) and have way too many polygons to show "realistic" faces which only hampers speedy movements and controls (AoC). See above: Polish means absolutely nothing. Maybe the type of thing that graphic designers drool over, but it's not essential to a game. I still play old titles from almost a decade ago because I like them. Awarding: Wow awards EVERY player. No matter what his/her playing style is. Everyone feels he can do "heroic" even if you are new to the game. The housewife, the young kid, the grandfather, the video kid, the competitive player, the raider, the no lifer. Eleven million heroes! If I want to feel heroic, I'll play a single player game. If I have the means behind me to be heroic in an MMO (i.e. if I'm a leader in a large guild), I'll try to do so in a MMO with "consequences" (though the word is increasingly becoming a cliché). WoW makes you a hero by virtue of logging in; even a single-player game asks you that you succeed to go anywhere. And here, it's even worse than "everybody's a hero"; because there's the fine print saying that "some heroes are more heroic than others", "more heroic" standing in for levels, and gear. All WoW does is stroke your ego every step of the way, even though it has you firmly running on that treadmill until the next expansion. Everyone can see a goal somewhere and gets rewarded. And that's where some see a problem with WoW. It's that whatever you do, you'll get rewarded. Nothing bad can happen. And to put things in perspective, I'm not even one of those "hardcore" PvPers who long for the good old days of pre-Trammel UO. But I like the idea of a game being a sandbox -- which WoW is anything but. Blizzard always leads you along. Playing Wow means playing it for 6 months to a year. Most play it longer, much longer. Do you have any evidence to back this up? What I hate: is the bored players. Duly noted. Boredom = verboten. Players who have the elitist mentality, players who think they are better than the complete design team of Blizzard. And there are those who would consider the design team of Blizzard to be infallible. Couldn't we say the same thing of any developer with a track record -- say, NCSoft, or Mythic? Oh, but I forget -- you're the guy who trashed Warhammer Online in its own section, while insulting those you think do the same to WoW here. So it would seem that only Blizzard knows what it's doing. Players who complain about the game they don't even know why it is being played the most of all PC games for 4 years in a row. Players who only see THEIR personal reasons (which of course have nothing to do with the millions of guys happy playing it NOW). Oh I see. MY personal reasons for not liking the game are invalid because millions of guys are happily playing it. If I have heard a better example of tyranny of the majority, I've forgotten all about it. How much of a despot are you when you're actually forcing me to like the game, all the while throwing at me its subscriber figures? I suspect that in your book, mere indifference to the game would be out of bounds, right? Personal reasons = verboten. Guys - not even playing it for years - posting hate words in a forum of a game I very much like to play. And when did you post that thread in the Warhammer Online section (see a few posts above in this thread), saying we should heed the comments of ex-players? December 7. That game was released in late September, so that's... ten weeks? You might have been in beta, so one month or so more -- still a far cry from years, are we? It's called a double standard, I believe. But I know you won't respond to this part, because that's what you always do. Actually, I saw through your profile that you played the same schtick in the Age of Conan section, where you were even accused of "trolling" for WoW even when you didn't mention that game and when you made a few valid points actually related to AoC. So you sir must have quite a reputation. It would seem you don't want any other game to compete with your beloved WoW. So NO, the game is NOT mediocre, it combines all the above elements and is simply "unique" in its success story. That's why 11.500.000 million people p a y for it each day (I assume you mean "month") again and again and again. No matter what a few thousand on mmorpg.com have to say.
Why Wow is loved: For heaven's sake, do you have to sound like ad copy in between parts of downright abuse? This isn't even an argument, merely pointless and bitter vitriol. I suppose to you, everything is an advertisement unless you're criticisizing something. Timing - You have 20 minutes, hop in and play a BG or do two or three solo quests. - You have 2 hours: you look at the daily heroic/dungeon, get in have fun. Always PvP on within a minute. - You have a free night: do MASSIVE world PvP now, a Raid, work on the professions or reputations and chat with the friends, do some old content and roleplay (go to a wedding or in game pic-nic). - You log in at 08.00 AM on a working day: lots of players and no options lost (except perhaps raiding). Good to see you've completely ignored these valid points. Lore: 69.000 pages of very good and for 98% rather consistent Lore (not even Middle Earth is 100% consistent). Good to know that Haris Pilton and references to the developers are also consistent in your book. And are you suggesting that somehow Warhamcraft lore is on par with Tolkien? Other games don't have humour and pop-culture references? His point regarding Middle Earth lore was consistency, and it isn't consistent or complete - even Tolkien admitted that. That doesn't make it on-par, that just means that even the best lore isn't perfect.
Pointless point to argue and you gain nothing in this debate.
That's my pet peeve these days btw. The Lore of NPC's can have pages and pages of history tx to the earlier Warcraft series and the books just keep coming (www.wowwiki.com). Underwater worlds, personal flying mounts make for the richest PVE seamless worlds possible. No "mountain" borders. This technique uses masses amount of resources and devlopment money. And since WotLK this world changes .. a lot, according to what you as an individual player unlocks... Very new to mmo's and its future phasing technology. Why should that matter? It's like saying Film X had nice special effects; if there's no plot, means absolutely nothing. Games aren't simply stories, they're interactive experiences. Virtual worlds, how that technology conveys the suspension of disbelief is incredibly important. Perhaps the games you are used to are merely relying on an interesting backstory to cover up all the huge gaping seams in the world, like huge zone-lines and dock bells and the stuff. Challenge: Rated and ladder based PvP. Players can be the best of 200K rated PvP players through Battlegroups (clustered servers). Higest titles and PvP gear are only given to a few "Godly" players. Some in between folk can have other titles/gear. But ranking is there and gives an extra dimension. It's an instance. Once you step out of it, it means absolutely nothing. Impact on the world: zilch. The rest of this section, I don't really care about. People know about the successful teams, and people are compelled by the competition as much as people are compelled about football or any other sport. Use your brain on this one, in a fantasy world does a gladiatoral fight impact the world? If it's between kings perhaps, but not typical combatants. You're trying to crticize an aspect of the game for not living up to an expectation that Blizzard nor its players are expecting it to meet. You personally don't like it, but it does provide challenge.. challenge beyond what you have probably experienced in an MMORPG. Carebear ... in a game where only 1 out of 200 K people gets a title based on match rankings? Don't think that goal is "easy". PVE used to be VERY challeging in TBC (Sunwell smashed up a lot of elite guilds). In the meantime WotLK has only 3 introducing Raids because the average people needed to be motivated again and lured away from the BG's. The next raids will be hopefully NOT TOO difficult because some cry now. Balance in PvP: Tx arena ! You may hate it, but the system itself shows which classes are overpowered and which classes will need a boost. 4 weeks after the PvP launch, we already have 3.08 on the PTR and 4 classes being nerved and others boosted. All tx to the Arena rating system. Other MMO's? Only the designers say so they are balanced. No controls possible. Polishment: Avatars movement in Wow is the best of all MMORPG's I played and to the contrary what you said I played them "longer than 1 hour". Yes I am spoiled by the avatar controls in Wow and don't seem to enjoy anything less these days. I hate it when characters are walking with a stick in their asses (Lotro), being clunky and unresponsive in spells (War) and have way too many polygons to show "realistic" faces which only hampers speedy movements and controls (AoC). See above: Polish means absolutely nothing. Maybe the type of thing that graphic designers drool over, but it's not essential to a game. I still play old titles from almost a decade ago because I like them. You don't understand what he is saying. He is not talking about fancy graphics. Don't you know what polish means with regard to games? Awarding: Wow awards EVERY player. No matter what his/her playing style is. Everyone feels he can do "heroic" even if you are new to the game. The housewife, the young kid, the grandfather, the video kid, the competitive player, the raider, the no lifer. Eleven million heroes! If I want to feel heroic, I'll play a single player game. If I have the means behind me to be heroic in an MMO (i.e. if I'm a leader in a large guild), I'll try to do so in a MMO with "consequences" (though the word is increasingly becoming a cliché). WoW makes you a hero by virtue of logging in; even a single-player game asks you that you succeed to go anywhere. And here, it's even worse than "everybody's a hero"; because there's the fine print saying that "some heroes are more heroic than others", "more heroic" standing in for levels, and gear. All WoW does is stroke your ego every step of the way, even though it has you firmly running on that treadmill until the next expansion. Your desired 'consequences' are virtually material and thus inconsequental. WoW recognizes the real consequences are the relationships between players, the team-building and competition, the accessibility of meeting and doing stuff together. Perhaps you're focusing too hard on that treadmill you seem so concerned about (which in games, will forever exist). Perhaps you should make some friends in game - the most important part of this game. Everyone can see a goal somewhere and gets rewarded. And that's where some see a problem with WoW. It's that whatever you do, you'll get rewarded. Nothing bad can happen. And to put things in perspective, I'm not even one of those "hardcore" PvPers who long for the good old days of pre-Trammel UO. But I like the idea of a game being a sandbox -- which WoW is anything but. Blizzard always leads you along. Plenty bad can happen. Even though you get 'rewarded' for participation, it's not considered 'good' to keep losing all the time - that's not a good thing. You can't get anywhere in this game by failing consistently. You can lose arena ranking, it's incredibily dissapointing to lose rank - I don't think I can sufficiently explain how much it is, but if you've ever played team sports and shared dismay with your team after trying so hard... you will know what it feels like. The same when a guild is trying to progress through content, sure, the dedicated and hardcore at the top seem to breeze through it, but there is a lot of organization. Bad things can happen, and it's all to do with people.
You can wipe in instances, and you can fail timed instances. Raids, particularly 25 man raids can go extremely wrong with just a little mistake, and the penalities are high - not just the material penalties, but on guild morale of the members and the people organizing it. Playing Wow means playing it for 6 months to a year. Most play it longer, much longer. Do you have any evidence to back this up? The evidence is in the gigantic internet presence, the internet communities, the thousands of fan-sites and guilds. The immense activity of the official forums and the fact that the expansions sell so bloody well. And the fact that the game is growing, not shrinking like everything else. What I hate: is the bored players. Duly noted. Boredom = verboten. All games have bored players. Even the bored players are being sufficiently entertained for them to be there, however. Players who have the elitist mentality, players who think they are better than the complete design team of Blizzard. And there are those who would consider the design team of Blizzard to be infallible. Couldn't we say the same thing of any developer with a track record -- say, NCSoft, or Mythic? Oh, but I forget -- you're the guy who trashed Warhammer Online in its own section, while insulting those you think do the same to WoW here. So it would seem that only Blizzard knows what it's doing. NCSoft and Mythic have... track records? For what? You think Blizzard don't know what they are doing? Are you sane? Players who complain about the game they don't even know why it is being played the most of all PC games for 4 years in a row. Players who only see THEIR personal reasons (which of course have nothing to do with the millions of guys happy playing it NOW). Oh I see. MY personal reasons for not liking the game are invalid because millions of guys are happily playing it. If I have heard a better example of tyranny of the majority, I've forgotten all about it. How much of a despot are you when you're actually forcing me to like the game, all the while throwing at me its subscriber figures? I suspect that in your book, mere indifference to the game would be out of bounds, right? Personal reasons = verboten. He's not forcing you to like anything. If you don't like it, fine. However you're trying to criticize a game for not being something it never has intended to be. Oh no I can't 'impact the world' - yeah because that works well in so many other games.... like... er... help me out here. Guys - not even playing it for years - posting hate words in a forum of a game I very much like to play. And when did you post that thread in the Warhammer Online section (see a few posts above in this thread), saying we should heed the comments of ex-players? December 7. That game was released in late September, so that's... ten weeks? You might have been in beta, so one month or so more -- still a far cry from years, are we? It's called a double standard, I believe. But I know you won't respond to this part, because that's what you always do. Actually, I saw through your profile that you played the same schtick in the Age of Conan section, where you were even accused of "trolling" for WoW even when you didn't mention that game and when you made a few valid points actually related to AoC. So you sir must have quite a reputation. It would seem you don't want any other game to compete with your beloved WoW. Personal vendetta section ignored, nicely reveals your motives though. So NO, the game is NOT mediocre, it combines all the above elements and is simply "unique" in its success story. That's why 11.500.000 million people p a y for it each day (I assume you mean "month") Oh you got him there, you win 3 internets. again and again and again. No matter what a few thousand on mmorpg.com have to say. My suggestion is you chill out and play more World of Warcraft
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
Why Wow is loved: For heaven's sake, do you have to sound like ad copy in between parts of downright abuse? This isn't even an argument, merely pointless and bitter vitriol. I suppose to you, everything is an advertisement unless you're criticisizing something. No. I can take a positive argument, but the way he's framed it, with all this bullet-point format, and his sweeping generalizations and hyperbole, this belongs to the realm of advertising than it does to the realm of argumentation. Timing - You have 20 minutes, hop in and play a BG or do two or three solo quests. - You have 2 hours: you look at the daily heroic/dungeon, get in have fun. Always PvP on within a minute. - You have a free night: do MASSIVE world PvP now, a Raid, work on the professions or reputations and chat with the friends, do some old content and roleplay (go to a wedding or in game pic-nic). - You log in at 08.00 AM on a working day: lots of players and no options lost (except perhaps raiding). Good to see you've completely ignored these valid points. Every game worth its money should offer that. All I'll say is that it nicely sweeps under the carpet all the hardcore-vs-casual concerns that were raging on at one point. And the debate is still valid. If the best gear in the game is only obtainable through raids, and then has a one-in-thirty drop rate, who's going to win in a PvP match where gear is important? Your hardcore, or your casual dressed in blues at best? Lore: 69.000 pages of very good and for 98% rather consistent Lore (not even Middle Earth is 100% consistent). Good to know that Haris Pilton and references to the developers are also consistent in your book. And are you suggesting that somehow Warhamcraft lore is on par with Tolkien? Other games don't have humour and pop-culture references? His point regarding Middle Earth lore was consistency, and it isn't consistent or complete - even Tolkien admitted that. That doesn't make it on-par, that just means that even the best lore isn't perfect.
Pointless point to argue and you gain nothing in this debate.
I didn't see many references to Paris Hilton in Age of Conan, which I will say that despite its glaring flaws had the best realized world I've ever seen in an MMO (though I've never played LOTRO or SWG, which I hear are/were very good). And that's one beef I have with Blizzard -- with their current setting, and the gazillions they make, they could make a splendid fantasy world. But they obstinately refuse to aim higher. That's my pet peeve these days btw. The Lore of NPC's can have pages and pages of history tx to the earlier Warcraft series and the books just keep coming (www.wowwiki.com). Underwater worlds, personal flying mounts make for the richest PVE seamless worlds possible. No "mountain" borders. This technique uses masses amount of resources and devlopment money. And since WotLK this world changes .. a lot, according to what you as an individual player unlocks... Very new to mmo's and its future phasing technology. Why should that matter? It's like saying Film X had nice special effects; if there's no plot, means absolutely nothing. Games aren't simply stories, they're interactive experiences. Virtual worlds, how that technology conveys the suspension of disbelief is incredibly important. Perhaps the games you are used to are merely relying on an interesting backstory to cover up all the huge gaping seams in the world, like huge zone-lines and dock bells and the stuff. I too am looking for a huge seamless world, and that means having no instances. I understand that it was necessary to prevent all the loot-camping problems of EQ, but the root problem was the loot drops, not the lack of instancing. If instancing is necessary in WoW because of dungeons and raids, it's Blizzard's fault for making them necessary for gear. Challenge: Rated and ladder based PvP. Players can be the best of 200K rated PvP players through Battlegroups (clustered servers). Higest titles and PvP gear are only given to a few "Godly" players. Some in between folk can have other titles/gear. But ranking is there and gives an extra dimension. It's an instance. Once you step out of it, it means absolutely nothing. Impact on the world: zilch. The rest of this section, I don't really care about. People know about the successful teams, and people are compelled by the competition as much as people are compelled about football or any other sport. Use your brain on this one, in a fantasy world does a gladiatoral fight impact the world? If it's between kings perhaps, but not typical combatants. You're trying to crticize an aspect of the game for not living up to an expectation that Blizzard nor its players are expecting it to meet. You personally don't like it, but it does provide challenge.. challenge beyond what you have probably experienced in an MMORPG. The best PvP I've seen in WoW -- and only once -- was when we were defending Splintertree Post against Alliance players. But it's wrecked as soon as a bunch of level-80's show up in a 20-30 zone and kill everything in sight, unless some level-80's on your side show up to stop them. I'm not saying Arena-type PvP combat can't be fun; I'm saying it can't be fun for long or if that is all that the game offers. As you said, it's just not my thing. I might do it if I want, but ask me to go in there to grind for gear and suddenly I feel I'm done. Carebear ... in a game where only 1 out of 200 K people gets a title based on match rankings? Don't think that goal is "easy". PVE used to be VERY challeging in TBC (Sunwell smashed up a lot of elite guilds). In the meantime WotLK has only 3 introducing Raids because the average people needed to be motivated again and lured away from the BG's. The next raids will be hopefully NOT TOO difficult because some cry now. Balance in PvP: Tx arena ! You may hate it, but the system itself shows which classes are overpowered and which classes will need a boost. 4 weeks after the PvP launch, we already have 3.08 on the PTR and 4 classes being nerved and others boosted. All tx to the Arena rating system. Other MMO's? Only the designers say so they are balanced. No controls possible. Polishment: Avatars movement in Wow is the best of all MMORPG's I played and to the contrary what you said I played them "longer than 1 hour". Yes I am spoiled by the avatar controls in Wow and don't seem to enjoy anything less these days. I hate it when characters are walking with a stick in their asses (Lotro), being clunky and unresponsive in spells (War) and have way too many polygons to show "realistic" faces which only hampers speedy movements and controls (AoC). See above: Polish means absolutely nothing. Maybe the type of thing that graphic designers drool over, but it's not essential to a game. I still play old titles from almost a decade ago because I like them. You don't understand what he is saying. He is not talking about fancy graphics. Don't you know what polish means with regard to games? I have always regarded polish as primarily graphical, or that it runs smoothly. If you mean anything by it, by all means enlighten me. Awarding: Wow awards EVERY player. No matter what his/her playing style is. Everyone feels he can do "heroic" even if you are new to the game. The housewife, the young kid, the grandfather, the video kid, the competitive player, the raider, the no lifer. Eleven million heroes! If I want to feel heroic, I'll play a single player game. If I have the means behind me to be heroic in an MMO (i.e. if I'm a leader in a large guild), I'll try to do so in a MMO with "consequences" (though the word is increasingly becoming a cliché). WoW makes you a hero by virtue of logging in; even a single-player game asks you that you succeed to go anywhere. And here, it's even worse than "everybody's a hero"; because there's the fine print saying that "some heroes are more heroic than others", "more heroic" standing in for levels, and gear. All WoW does is stroke your ego every step of the way, even though it has you firmly running on that treadmill until the next expansion. Your desired 'consequences' are virtually material and thus inconsequental. WoW recognizes the real consequences are the relationships between players, the team-building and competition, the accessibility of meeting and doing stuff together. Perhaps you're focusing too hard on that treadmill you seem so concerned about (which in games, will forever exist). Perhaps you should make some friends in game - the most important part of this game. Hmm, if you dismiss this point by saying that 'consequences' are virtually immaterial and thus inconsequential, haven't you just dismissed the entire field of gaming? I regard as treadmill any action that the game forces you to do, and which you don't feel like doing, to access an endgame which is supposedly better. The best games out there sell the journey, not the destination -- what does WoW sell? "Kill X this", "Gather Y that which have a drop rate of 1 in 20"? Tetris made it challenging at every step of the way, and those old Super Mario games; I mean, who cared about the damn princess anyway? I would also question whether WoW is the best tool to make online friends. Most of the game (outside of any instances) is one huge solo grind. Everyone can see a goal somewhere and gets rewarded. And that's where some see a problem with WoW. It's that whatever you do, you'll get rewarded. Nothing bad can happen. And to put things in perspective, I'm not even one of those "hardcore" PvPers who long for the good old days of pre-Trammel UO. But I like the idea of a game being a sandbox -- which WoW is anything but. Blizzard always leads you along. Plenty bad can happen. Even though you get 'rewarded' for participation, it's not considered 'good' to keep losing all the time - that's not a good thing. You can't get anywhere in this game by failing consistently. You can lose arena ranking, it's incredibily dissapointing to lose rank - I don't think I can sufficiently explain how much it is, but if you've ever played team sports and shared dismay with your team after trying so hard... you will know what it feels like. The same when a guild is trying to progress through content, sure, the dedicated and hardcore at the top seem to breeze through it, but there is a lot of organization. Bad things can happen, and it's all to do with people.
You can wipe in instances, and you can fail timed instances. Raids, particularly 25 man raids can go extremely wrong with just a little mistake, and the penalities are high - not just the material penalties, but on guild morale of the members and the people organizing it. When I wrote about consequences, I didn't mean "failing the raid". I meant an impact upon the game world. Rank? It's just an e-peen thing. I meant Realm-vs-Realm. Here it's just two sides, but you can't do anything about it. Nothing ever changes, unless Blizzard does it (which then is no fun). Players' impact upon the world? None. That's what I meant.
Playing Wow means playing it for 6 months to a year. Most play it longer, much longer. Do you have any evidence to back this up? The evidence is in the gigantic internet presence, the internet communities, the thousands of fan-sites and guilds. The immense activity of the official forums and the fact that the expansions sell so bloody well. And the fact that the game is growing, not shrinking like everything else. And maybe that's the problem that some people have with WoW? When it's regarded that having 11 million subscribers (wouldn't you expect a gigantic internet presence with that?) makes this game ironclad and immune to criticism -- that's the problem. When Zorndorf spouted off in another thread about WoW being an unstoppable juggernaut whose fate was now out of MMORPG players, and that not even guilds could stop its growth (and in fact would be forced to start playing it for their e-peen to grow to a full measure), what the hell am I supposed to think? He's just providing fodder for those who accuse WoW of having wrecked the entire MMO industry. Are you backing him up? I'd gladly leave WoW alone if its most dedicated players didn't look as though they were intent on destroying the entire MMORPG field? What I hate: is the bored players. Duly noted. Boredom = verboten. All games have bored players. Even the bored players are being sufficiently entertained for them to be there, however. Then we're not talking about entertainment anymore; the word for feeling compelled to do something you want to stop doing is addiction. Players who have the elitist mentality, players who think they are better than the complete design team of Blizzard. And there are those who would consider the design team of Blizzard to be infallible. Couldn't we say the same thing of any developer with a track record -- say, NCSoft, or Mythic? Oh, but I forget -- you're the guy who trashed Warhammer Online in its own section, while insulting those you think do the same to WoW here. So it would seem that only Blizzard knows what it's doing. NCSoft and Mythic have... track records? For what? You think Blizzard don't know what they are doing? Are you sane? Ah, I love being abused. NCSoft and Mythic have had hits and misses, I'm not denying that. (Although, ironically, one of the criticisms that came back about WAR is that they made it too much like WoW instead of their previous title, Dark Age of Camelot.) The problem is that Blizzard knows all too well what it's doing -- to make money, that is. If you don't look at the bottom line, though, a good game doesn't necessarily make truckloads of money, and I'm tempted here to think that those who made the comparison with McDonald's are spot on. It's reached the point where Blizzard doesn't even bother taking risks or being innovative (at least regarding gameplay) anymore; every expansion will just be More of the Same, and every new game it releases will always go for the same thing. Players who complain about the game they don't even know why it is being played the most of all PC games for 4 years in a row. Players who only see THEIR personal reasons (which of course have nothing to do with the millions of guys happy playing it NOW). Oh I see. MY personal reasons for not liking the game are invalid because millions of guys are happily playing it. If I have heard a better example of tyranny of the majority, I've forgotten all about it. How much of a despot are you when you're actually forcing me to like the game, all the while throwing at me its subscriber figures? I suspect that in your book, mere indifference to the game would be out of bounds, right? Personal reasons = verboten. He's not forcing you to like anything. If you don't like it, fine. However you're trying to criticize a game for not being something it never has intended to be. Oh no I can't 'impact the world' - yeah because that works well in so many other games.... like... er... help me out here. Well, I'd say you just need to see his comment about bored players above. But beside that, If he's not forcing me to like anything, how about you stroll over to the thread I started a while ago? Read his responses. His references to anyone who dares to question his beloved game as "vomit". Guys - not even playing it for years - posting hate words in a forum of a game I very much like to play. And when did you post that thread in the Warhammer Online section (see a few posts above in this thread), saying we should heed the comments of ex-players? December 7. That game was released in late September, so that's... ten weeks? You might have been in beta, so one month or so more -- still a far cry from years, are we? It's called a double standard, I believe. But I know you won't respond to this part, because that's what you always do. Actually, I saw through your profile that you played the same schtick in the Age of Conan section, where you were even accused of "trolling" for WoW even when you didn't mention that game and when you made a few valid points actually related to AoC. So you sir must have quite a reputation. It would seem you don't want any other game to compete with your beloved WoW. Personal vendetta section ignored, nicely reveals your motives though. And what about Zorndorf's motives then? What business did he have going to the Warhammer Online section to post that utterly silly and transparent thread about how WAR pales in comparison to WoW in every respect -- and then accuse people who "vomit" (look at the recurrence of that word) over WoW here of trolling? (For the record, as I've stated elsewhere, I'm not a fan of WAR, and I didn't play it for more than a week.) Did he ever bother justifying himself for that WAR thread? No. He's one of the good guys here, it would seem, so he must be allowed every latitude, and never be held to account. I'll tell you my personal motives -- I despise double standards, especially when they come from someone whose abuse on this section is amply documented. Just look in this thread. OP was lukewarm about WoW, Super Zorndorf shows up to put him down without even bothering to read his points. Instead, he just throws more taunts around how how those who dare to criticize WoW should "keep up your Wow hating jobs, because you're going to get a lot more frustration in the coming years". Now I'm getting the impression that he's swaggering around "his" forums without ever being held to account. I knew he couldn't do it all by himself. So NO, the game is NOT mediocre, it combines all the above elements and is simply "unique" in its success story. That's why 11.500.000 million people p a y for it each day (I assume you mean "month") Oh you got him there, you win 3 internets. again and again and again. No matter what a few thousand on mmorpg.com have to say. My suggestion is you chill out and play more World of Warcraft /cancelled. I'd gladly have waited another month and gained a few more levels to see if things improved with the game. But it's people like Zorndorf and you, who'd dismiss any criticism of the game I might harbour, regardless of the level I've reached or the time I've played, who have convinced me to cancel. I simply cannot continue to play a game if my subscription to it is to be regarded (11 million subscribers, you know) as tacit approval not only of the game, but also of its impact on the field of MMO's. And since you're apparently not allowed to say anything about WoW unless you've spent a few years in it already -- well, I'm gone. Hope you can find a way of attracting new players with that type of mentality.
And let me say this -- What you're doing is counterintuitive for the welfare of the game. As I said above, I didn't really care about WoW, even when I posted that thread I linked to above, but when you get shouted down for saying a few points against the game, while Zorndorf goes on in that other thread about how "no matter what comes out, the mainstream is Wow now and nothing is stopping the juggernaut", is it any wonder that some people would develop a hatred of the game, purely based on the arrogance of its most rabid fans hiding between legions of millions of players? If anything, that quote by Zorndorf just offers more evidence that WoW is killing the field -- but then he'd show up and blame you for thinking that. You guys made the WoW haters what they are.
Use the block function of these forum to weed out individuals that can't be reasoned with. Reading through all the latest posts, it's obvious that the bashing originates from the rambling of blind fanboism rather than the flaws of the game itself. I don't see why you NEED to answer to somebody that his opinion is so unreasonable. Going out of your way to counter this, you just become unreasonable yourself.
The bottom line is that those who loved the classic WoW and went through the lukeworm TBC expansion will probably love LK expansion because it's the true successor to the classic WoW. Those who didn't like the original WoW, won't like the LK expansion either.
One thing that people need to be aware of and I'm not sure that it was mentioned at all is that with the new expansion all PvE content can be accessed and experienced with 10-man groups. Those of you who commented in the past asking for a game like WoW sans the raid part, you now get what you wished for.
I read through all the quotes and could clearly see that while there were some good points in the post, there was some flaming.
Its very difficult (in general) for people of the human race with differing opinions to get along - escipecially when both sides believe what they do so firmly.
Every single post that is purely a "I hate wow" post will never stem any good, nor will ones of the opposit kind. For you guys i think you will have to either agree to disagree or try and reply without flames. Not that I'm blaming either of you.
The only things that I know (as best as is physically possible) is this.
Some people love WoW
Some people hate WoW.
There are people on both sides who troll.
As a personal thing I think Wow is only an average game, but im aware that its diffrent for others.
And WoW will die. Maybe not this year. Maybe not for a long time. But it will die simply because it cannot last forever. It is not perfect (there is no such thing as perfection let alone a perfect game - it always comes down to taste). I know you dont want to hear it, but nothing lasts forever, and anyone wo thinks it will is irrational.
It may be growing, indeed the stats say so, but growth cannot last forever either.
And WHEN it dies whenever that may be, it all likelyhood the MMO genre will be better off.
Some people love WoW Some people hate WoW. As a personal thing I think Wow is only an average game, but im aware that its diffrent for others. And WoW will die. Maybe not this year. Maybe not for a long time. But it will die simply because it cannot last forever. It is not perfect (there is no such thing as perfection let alone a perfect game - it always comes down to taste). I know you dont want to hear it, but nothing lasts forever, and anyone wo thinks it will is irrational. It may be growing, indeed the stats say so, but growth cannot last forever either. And WHEN it dies whenever that may be, it all likelyhood the MMO genre will be better off.
Folks reread the blue and now you know why the OP is saying this in a Wow forum.
Oh, great. Surely you're not expecting everyone to like the game?
And people say that I am the troll...
What I said is this: You're accusing critics of WoW of trolling on here, while you apparently see nothing wrong in doing the same on the WAR forums, or the Age of Conan ones (where someone actually called you a WoW troll).
I very much like the "some" fact. With 5 million US/EU subs and the competittion stays under 250K, it MAY be that the game is good for "some".
Nobody disagrees that some people might find the game good. However, its subscription figures, as I and others have been pointing out all along, do not preclude "some" people from not liking it. Otherwise, we're quickly falling into "tyranny of the majority" territory where you're not allowed to question something because it so happens to be popular. Are Wal-Mart, Britney Spears and McDonald's necessarily good because they make tons of money? See what I mean?
Some is not the of the same "proportion" here.
.the ONLY one above who gave ARGUMENTS why I think Wow has 11.5 million players was me and I am the troll. What a laugh.
The rest rather spit out opinions without decent arguments.
Apparently, the only "decent arguments" you're willing to consider are "11 million players" and "flying mounts", even though they don't mean anything.
If I don't like the game, are you going to start second-guessing me? Yeah, in fact you did -- "Mr. Level 46" doesn't know if he likes a game or not because he's not level 80, hasn't started to grind for epic gear (to be outdated by the next expansion), and hasn't been playing for a few years. What you're doing, that's the elitist approach to WoW, which has nothing to do with casual or hardcore as it used to be. It's all about how long you've been playing, and what level you are. In your words, I "missed... the game".
If I post here that I don't like lasagna, will you be second-guessing me on that as well by describing how rich the meat sauce is?
I very much find the last sentence disgusting: Blizzard is in NO way responsible for the state of this industry. It showed the industry what a POTENTIAL there was and the others couldn't reach out.
Pity you don't see this and call people who like to play this game trolls on our own forums btw.
See what I mean? "Our own forums". And the Warhammer Online people, are they allowed to have "their own forums" without being told their game is "a joke" across the width and breadth of Europe by the Zorndorfs of this world who then spend the second part of their post extolling the virtues of Wrath of the Lich King? Apparently not.
I will have no qualms about you posting there if you have no qualms about critics of WoW (including mild ones) posting here. Do we have a deal? (Oh but I forget, even "average game" isn't good enough.)
PS. Tell me why are you OBSESSED with wanting Wow to die? All over your posts. Meaning why in the hell you would want a game to ... die ??????
Question: Would you apply this statement to other games as well, or is World of Warcraft the only game being covered by the why-would-you-want-a-game-to-die policy? Unstoppable juggernaut, remember?
And yes, WoW will die, because all things do. I don't want it to either, but to say it won't is just to enter a state of denial.
I don't know if its death will be a good thing for the industry, since then it's just going to be another race between studios to see who can produce the next one to capture its market share. I think we've reached the stage where other companies have stopped trying to beat WoW at its own game, after AoC and WAR's debacles -- but that's going to remain only as long as WoW lives.
That means that as long as WoW is around, other companies could now start to focus on making titles that are completely different from WoW. But I have to ask -- would you tolerate the existence of those non-WoW games, or would you start calling them jokes as well?
Some people love WoW Some people hate WoW. As a personal thing I think Wow is only an average game, but im aware that its diffrent for others. And WoW will die. Maybe not this year. Maybe not for a long time. But it will die simply because it cannot last forever. It is not perfect (there is no such thing as perfection let alone a perfect game - it always comes down to taste). I know you dont want to hear it, but nothing lasts forever, and anyone wo thinks it will is irrational. It may be growing, indeed the stats say so, but growth cannot last forever either. And WHEN it dies whenever that may be, it all likelyhood the MMO genre will be better off.
Folks reread the blue and now you know why the OP is saying this in a Wow forum.
And people say that I am the troll...
Not me. You have taken my point of view and twisted it. Nothing above I said means WoW sucks. Nothing I said above means I hate it. Indeed the stuff I have said could only be considered "WoW Hating" by those who dont clearly understand what Im saying - which ill try yet again to make clear.
I very much like the "some" fact. With 5 million US/EU subs and the competittion stays under 250K, it MAY be that the game is good for "some".
Some is not the of the same "proportion" here.
Some is no given number, this argument means nothing.
.the ONLY one above who gave ARGUMENTS why I think Wow has 11.5 million players was me and I am the troll. What a laugh.
Yes you made points. Believe it or not I too GAVE REASONS why WoW has 11.5 million players. Its a marketing thing. It's a social thing. In some cases its an addiction. For many it is simply THE RIGHT GAME FOR THEM. But it ISN'T for everbody. That right, not everyone loves WoW.
The rest rather spit out opinions without decent arguments.
Since this is basically a flame I wont bother to counter it.
I very much find the last sentence disgusting: Blizzard is in NO way responsible for the state of this industry. It showed the industry what a POTENTIAL there was and the others couldn't reach out.
I never said it directly was. Indirectly however it is. How can a WoW-clone exist without WoW? IT's not blizzards fault, they cant control it. Your second statement is in line with my argument.
Pity you don't see this and call people who like to play this game trolls on our own forums btw.
They are not anyones forums. They are everybody's forums. To say its your own is once again irrational and perhaps even ignorant. Ex-players have opinions and believe it or not we aren't all trolls. Ass for you actualyl calling me a troll, I have nothing to say to a flame, as above.
PS. Tell me why are you OBSESSED with wanting Wow to die? All over your posts. Meaning why in the hell you would want a game to ... die ??????
Ok. Ill try and clarify this because I know it could read that way but I was assuming you would see it as objective..
I don't want WoW to die, and i never said I did. What I said was
A- It WILL die. I have no idea when, but every MMo dies, every game stops being played. WoW, in all probability will last a long time, but not forever.
B - WHEN it dies, the MMO industry will be better off because of it.
Obviously I want the MMo industry to grow an improve, and of course i would prefer that to happen WITHOUT ANY MMO dieing. So in a way perhaps I do want WoW to die, but it isn't because I don't like it. Its because I care for the MMO industry as a whole.
WoW is a big part of it. It's MY belief that the effects of WoW and what it is doing for the MMO industry will be felt for a long time.
You keep following the wrong person. You are following your own tail.
I am the one giving arguments why Wow has so much players. You are the one countering with personal remarks, the one stating general conclusions of things you never experienced in Wow.
I could say that an MMO shouldnt have all of its good content only for those who finish the treadmill, but im sure you will take this for WoW hate. So instead, I simply suggest you don't flame someone for it.
You made conclusions that Wow only had "ganking" PvP, while at level 46, you couldn't have played AV, EoS, Strand sieges or open world PvP in Northrend.
You made general conclusions about Wow class designs, while at lvl 46 you had 35 of the 69 talent settings and a whole bunch of not yet opened up abilities.
I played AoC and WAR extensively and did a few Keep fights in War. You don't know what I talk about if I say "the Wintergrasp castle lays in rumbles". You have no idea what it is, but still making "general conclusions".
You may have your own thought, I only showed the others you didn't see 90% of the game.
It's some people's belief, and I will admit that i personally share it, that an MMO's content shouldt almost entierly be 3/4 of the level cap way up. Journey, not the destination right?
BUT you are under no obligation to agree. AS above, the best thing we can do is agree to disagree about this, instead of personal attacks.
No problem: I talk about games: you talk about persons and I thought you had left (as mentioned in your earlier post).
As for AoC and WAR : they show of their success on their own. Wow is not responsible for the state they are in. That's for Mythic and FunCom to decide.
Both games lack the elements I showed about 10 posts above this one and that's why they fail (to me) and in sub numbers.
For once you admit that is why YOU think it, and i commend you for it. I personally disagree, but i doubt i can change your mind so I wont press it if I dont have to.
So your problem is someone countered with good and decent arguments.
Gone are the days you could shit on Wow on mmorpg.com. In fact that's why I react, to have some counterweight to the ridiculous mostly unfounded hatred towards the best selling PC game of the last 4 years.
All I can say is that WoW isn't the best selling game of the last 4 years, just the best selling MMO.
Stating that the death of one game would be a good thing to the MMO world (read the post I was reacting to), when all you have as an alternative is DAoC, AoC, War and Lotro is suicidal at best.
First, its your personal opinion those MMo's suck, not everyone shares that.
But, more to the point you have misread my previous posts. I didn't think it would be better for the MMO industry because the players would migrate to those said MMO's. For all I know they to will be dead (And in reality probably will be by the time WoW does) when WoW does.
It is my belief the GENERAL world of MMO will benefit because Gave Developers will see a free market. where this is a big market, there is big competition. And in the world of games, competition means more quality, innovation etc.
I judge the sucess of the MMO world by the innovation and quality that is seen by al the MMO's existing time of said judgment. Obviosuly, quality is a matter of opinion, but innovation is more objective.
The current MMO world, and im sure ill cop flak for this, is lacking in innovation. How many MMO's can you name that aren't combat based?
Galaxies? Even that at its core had combat. Sure, it had housing, but Galaxies player run econemy wouldn't exist without comabt - and people to buy weapons.
Arguably innovation doesnt nesscarily mean not having combat, but my point is that alot of MMO's are similar, at their core, to each other. *continued in my post*
And while I am at it. Yes I called War a joke, but you called it in your own post above "a debacle". Just another expression why the one leads to the other I guess.
"evil begists evil" or perhaps "flame begits flame".
Do as the south africans did in South Africa. Say your sorry and then forgive.
(Hope but doubt this will happen)
*Continued*
Maybe I'm wrong.
Im not oracle, no super genius, and I never claimed to be.
Maybe WoW will die and the players will leave the MMO genre.
Maybe a new WoW will form - a completely diffrent game but like WoW, has all the players.
Or maybe, by some immposinility that defies all existing logic and will somehow last forever.(THIS IS NOT A FLAME AGAINST WOW - It is INEVITABLE. Just like every other game in history, it will eventually stop being played. Maybe it will last beyond my death, but like me, its death is inevitable. even if it take 100 years)
There are many things that could happen and no-one can see the future.
But, when I personally examine and use the logic that i have, hwoever it differs from each person in the world, I see the most liekly thing happening is the MMO community being better off with WoW's death.
And thats why I LOVE WOW.
It the words of my father, avid gamer and best friend.
Comments
There is no such thing as best MMO.
If you liked the atmosphere and the feeling of the classic WoW in an environment that truly feels epic and with some strong storytelling elements thrown in the mix (you have to see phasing technology used in storytelling to understand what I'm trying to say), you'll love the new expansion.
It's all about expectations really. They definitely expanded from the classic WoW in the proper direction (in my opinion).
(Borean Tundra, the starting town, when you see an NPC line of Alliance recruits waiting in front of the recruiting officer, then he calls you to come straight in front of the line because you're a recognised hero of the past. Little things like that are all over the place and add up tremendously to the overall atmosphere.)
/ Agree - that is exactly what I have been trying to say. It was not my intention to flame WoW - I probably could of made that cleare though...
Xasa - It does sound like they improved parts of the game i did enjoy, and do of other MMo's (story etc.) You actually are tempting me back
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
But customization and creativity should go beyond that - it should absorb the very essence of men playing it, not creating it. Developers need to evolve this aspect of MMOGs to both embrace and encourage individuality among potential players. I believe in this way, the so-called grind we experience will become less of a repetitive task of higher numbers and more about the conscious evolution of a player's thought into set of the game: you should not conform to the game, but the game should conform to you.
But customization and creativity should go beyond that - it should absorb the very essence of men playing it, not creating it. Developers need to evolve this aspect of MMOGs to both embrace and encourage individuality among potential players. I believe in this way, the so-called grind we experience will become less of a repetitive task of higher numbers and more about the conscious evolution of a player's thought into set of the game: you should not conform to the game, but the game should conform to you.
I tend to agree, but I dont belive any MMO has done this completely. Galaxies was close, but it still had its reptative grind, even if it was an enjoyable one and unique for each skill set.
Games conforming to us..sounds like heaven?
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
I also miss the old galaxies. Im surprised they didn't go back right away when they saw the huge drop.
Saying you hate wow is almost like being a racist, and i still don't understand why, since the pvp is quite boring after a while, its almost not an mmo since everything is instanced, and the parts that are not are almost dead or just boring. (based on pre wotlk).
Stopped a while before that, since every expansion blizzard releases makes all the gear you have completely useless.
Im hoping Darkfall release will go well, then at least there is something with good ffa pvp to play.
RvR will in general fail a bit, since the end game content will usually suck hard. (war and soon aion).
Of course I am annoying, because I see things in posts which are ridiculous.
The OP complains about lack of character specs and than just happily puts GW as the game he plays.
I say ROFL. Of course I am annoying by showing obvious points like these and show the guy is posting his FIRST post on mmorpg.com.
Just like the guys above who are posting for the first time on mmorpg-wowhate.com.... Yeah.
And it always baffles me when you guys all say: "But it is for sure not the best MMO out there. "
So which one it it? Let us laugh too.
But you are doing the exactly same thing arent you about outher games? maby he plays gw and prefer it over wow, maby i play lotro and prefer it over wow.. maby you prefer wow over everything else.
Whats best can be discussed for ages, and we will never get anywhere.. because different people prefer different things.
What is a clone or not has nothing to do with anything, theres more to a game than just the theme. I admitt i have played wow for around 3 years, and thats exactly the reason why i dont play it anymore..
you can compare it with your favorite music hit og favorite movie.. is that favorite the same today, as it whas 3-4 years ago? maby if you only watched it or listned to it once in a while. But thats not what im refering too, what im refering too, is if you watched that movie many times every day, and listned to that track maby times every day for 3 years.. you get burned out at some point.
Want to play: Lego Universe
Well, there was one MMO that I think pulled it off, in a way. Second Life. However, the way they structured and made it only really made it viable to people who want to make money off the business of virtual commodities, so people don't even consider it a 'game' (even though it is). I think the developers of Second Life had some major concept flaws when making the game: the commodities made in the game can only be as valuable as the people make them out to be. It's like taking risk on buying expensive art that you hope one day will out-bid the price you bought it for, and in Second Life that price is time and Linden Labs servers. Personnally I wouldn't ever trust the later of the two so I don't bother playing Second Life. That, and the fact that the servers lag beyond belief.
Anything you do more than once could be considered a 'grind'. Star Wars Galaxies had an unbelievable unbalanced grind when it came to artisan profressions - smaller schemes left smaller experience but still the same amount of time had to be taken, while the larger schematics took more resources, those resources can be taken right from the ground even when you are logged off. So architects had a real easy way through their 'grind' while I was trying to become a weaponsmith and to get just one out of the sixteen bars seem like forever. (After that I quit artisan and became a commando because I was just so addicted to the flamethrower, heh)
My idea is to have no grind at all, but have the players learn from experience. What I mean is, whenever someone starts off on something, it is never a grind. Why? Because they have to first learn how to be good at it before they can really do it well. When I first played my rogue in World of Warcraft, it was the first time I played a class that could be in stealth. Because of this, I had to learn, or teach myself, how to go use stealth in the best of ways so that I could survive. So to that, a player that becomes a crafter or artisan shouldn't be given all the statistical information, but instead the player should inform the user who made it and then the player using it should find out just how fast he or she can pull the trigger/hit people with it and with what damage by and if there is any effects to it. In this way, a crafter will learn how to make the best weapons in the game without the restrictions many of the traditional MMOGs place on them, and it will make them unique.
It's these kinds of ideas, the ideas where the game conforms to your own uniqueness and originality, that should be played off of. Not somebody elses.
(Sorry I got off-topic)
LOL ur looking forward to the agency?? hahaha
Off-topic yes. Good point. Yes.
In a way that idea is similar to mine.
In the example of a crafter, a player couldnt just gather the materials and click build.
The blueprint would need to be gotten but it would only be a basic outline. the quality of the materials, the changes in materials, what equipment is used to build it and even perhaps some sort of minigame to dictate how it was built. For convenieces sake you could save the process so you wouldnt have to do it everytime you wanted an exact replica..
wait.. wasnt the topic WoW??
In a way though this is what i mean - I think great titles, not always sandbox, could stem from the end of WoW, since the market is now so much bigger.
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
I chopse the title so it could clearly show that i have conflicting views on WoW, and because there are aspects of it I do hate.
Does it matter how LOTRO won? So what if it was 600? Where were the 11 million WoW players? as other forum topics have said it is because the greater part of the WoW community doesnt care for the rest of the MMO. SOME do care. SOME do come onto websites like these - but not all.
You have flamed me once again and called me a troll and yet i have not intetntionally flamed you. I am no troll. I posted this to see what other people though about my overall opinion (that WoW should be thanked even if it is only average - and that it isnt average for everyone, some disklike greatly others love)
And not once did i say GW was better, once again you have not read my post completely, or have misunderstood it. I merely pointed out that i currently play GW and not WoW. I have spendt more time on WoW then GW. although i never said 3 years once again throwing words in my mouth (post :P:P)
I pointed out that dye allowed more customisation and that yes in THAT regard it is better then WoW - but i never said overall it isnt. WoW Has far more depth then GW, GW has a nicer community (that is a genraelsiation do not take it for all GW players are nice or all of WoW sucks - it is merely an average that i PERSONALLY experienced), WoW has gear, GW doesnt.
They are not the same game, and I do not compare them In enough way for me to decide. GW is diffrent from almost all MMO's starting from the method of payment
This is all of track though. To summasie for those who skipped ahead. I do not think WoW is bad, i think it is average. The reason i said i hate it is because there are players of WoW that are illogical and belive that WoW is perfect despite not playing other MMOS (It is true other games feature this, but i persoanaly feel they are more proment/more of them in WoW).
And ABOVE ALL I LOVE WoW for what it has done for the MMO community(Or what it will do when it eventualyl falls, although who knows when that will happen) 11.5 million players looking for a new MMO could end with the birth of some really innovative MMO's (I M O). Can you please stop flaming Zandorf so we can have a proper discussion.
EDIT: Xasa, i can honestly say I have not tried WOTLK, so if has improved that is good to hear, this does mean I wouldnt be able to properly tell if it is now "The best MMO".
That said, I ahve read on the features, and while it certainyl added lots, I personally felt there was not the right ones to make me go back. Dont mistake this for me think WOTLK is bad - i dont know. Merely based on what I know I would nto go back.
Would you say it is the best MMO?
2EDIT: Also, do you honestly belive I would get less flame if the title was "Why I Hate WoW players, Love WoW, and Thank Blizzard"? And isnit the only flame ive gotten so far from you?
Besides, what lesson can Zorndorf possibly give on matters of trolling, when he took the trouble of going over to the Warhammer Online section and get this thread started.
In his words:
The game is selling at 40% of its orginal price everywhere and it's the joke in every EU town.
Just listen at the (ex)players and comments.
Badly designed.
Badly executed.
A joke in RPG, PVE and yes PvP.
And in comparaison with WotLK it is years behind the quality of PVE and ... very much PvP.
In Lake Wintergrasp every night there are massive battles....In War you can play ONE scenario per Tier.
The game is the worst MMORPG ever designed.
And an example of how designers can interpret gaming fun and bad taste.
I'm not a fan of Warhammer Online -- tried it out, wasn't impressed, crashes to desktop finally overwhelmed me and I quit after seven days. But "a joke"? No, not really; more like a disappointment to those who had enjoyed Dark Age of Camelot -- and ironically, one aspect came back often in criticisms people made of Warhammer, namely, that it had been made too much like WoW... Not the lore (from what I hear, the tabletop Warhammer wrote it and WoW just ripped it off), but gameplay, graphics, this sort of thing.
But Warhammer Online being considered A Threat, it must be derided, even on its own turf. That's the problem. Never mind that WoW isn't struggling, far from it, just having the possibility of a contender is too much. They don't want any other game around that could steal from WoW's market share. Blizzard's little minions, in other words, better than viral marketing because they come free of charge.
Likewise, as we've both experienced, all criticism of WoW must be crushed. Even if you just say that you don't like the game, because if you don't, the problem is you, not their beloved WoW enjoyed by 11 million people, twice the population of New Zealand or whatever. Maybe in some cases that's right, maybe the game isn't your cup of tea; but it becomes a problem when you're told that you must enjoy a game.
Which is precisely what this Zorndorf guy is saying. In my case, he just went around saying I didn't really play the game for six weeks and that because I only played to level 46, I cannot appreciate the undeniable greatness of WoW, including its PvE (what was that grinding then?). Yet I think I'm quite capable of knowing when I'm getting bored, am I not?
These days, I'm reading the section on Darkfall, and it too has its staunch fanbois. But of the two, WoW's are by far the most dangerous, because they can always point to their beloved game's subscriber figures. A failing game (or, as in Darkfall's case, an absent one) makes things tougher to defend, but here Blizzard's bottom line backs them up at every stage, even though the word "pandering" comes to mind.
What WoW's fanbois are, however, is superfluous. The game doesn't need them, which makes them even more infuriating when they are arrogant and stubborn -- like Zorndorf.
So LOTRO won. Boo. Hoo. Evil MMORPG site doesn't like WoW. It's more like this site doesn't like anything. Only fanbois cry persecution -- and they do so for any game, on any forum.
What the WoW fanboi must be taught, however, is modesty and, especially for the WoW fanboi, magnanimity. Liking Warhammer Online isn't the death knell of WoW, you know.
(Off-Topic)
Unlike Star Wars Galaxies, I don't want blueprints, or schematics just magically given to the player by grinding, I want the player himself to make the blueprint or schematic and allow that blueprint/schematic to be used by other players. In this aspect, a person could concieve their own creations rather than the intentions of someone else (the developers).
I think the thing I want to stress is that you shouldn't be limited based on the grind, like Star Wars Galaxies, but your own ability to learn and grow from the process you learn. Maybe as you and your avatar both start understanding more, your 'brain capacity' will fill up until you can't learn any more.
Note on the lore side of things: Yes, allegdly Warcraft ripped from the table-top game. Only fact we know is Warhammer came first.
I haven't played WAR either, but from what I have heard it is similar to WoW in many regards - which makes me wonder how someone can flame it who loves WoW...
I belive LOTRO won simply because, as said before, most WoW playesrs avoid sites that aren't solely WoW based. That doesn't make them all fanboy's, but one could expect several of them to be.
- Your right though, WoW "fanboys" use the stats to argue the game is better. Heres some new guys.
1. 6 billion people in the world. only 11 million play WoW - and you can bet there is a whole lot more that play games in general then that.
2. Over 11 million people thought the world was flat. "It LOOKS flat!"
3. WoW isn't perfect. Im going to avoid saying how good it is because its a matter of opinion, but since there is NO SUCH THING as a perfect MMO, WoW isn't it. And to the fanboys - belive it or not some people actually don't enjoy playing it. Deal with it.
It should be 'Don't hate the game, hate the players"
>_>
(Off Topic)
Mack - An idea so good good im suprised i didnt think of it (jokes)
great idea! Now all we need to do is find a developer who wants to make a crafting based MMO - or rather an MMO that makes crafting-only characters viable.
Wait a second (once again), wasnt there already a game like that? Called Star Wars Universe or something?? :P
(They did miuss the make your own blueprint part though)
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
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Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
I gave you chances Zorndorf. I didnt flame you or call you a troll, i even defended you and said that you probably had a good point to make between your insults.
Ive had enough. Please stop trolling this thread. I am not a WoW hater, and you have my opinions completely twisted. To top it off you have completely disregarded me when I say this is all my opinion not fact (albet using evidence to support my opinion).
I request you either actually read my post and reply with some sort of a point, or don't post at all. Ive had enough of you flaming me. If you do post anymore i will merely ignore it.
I suggest for other people in this thread to do the same.
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
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Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
You didnt flame so ill reply (thanks).
I kept the name as it is because it demonstrates my conflicting view. Anyone who would post on this thread based on the name isn't worth replying to. Also, this is my only thread with the line I hate wow".
TBH im suprised i havent caught flame for saying i love WoW aswell...
As before though i could of called it "Why i hate some wow players, love wow and thank blizzard" but im pretty sure i would cop flak for that aswell.
You are right however - I could have picked a better title. But i picked this one and it would be contradictory of me to change it now, so im sticking with it. If I do ever repost ill be suer to avoid saying "I hate WoW" in it.
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
I agree!...not.
Have you ever seen WoW faces up close? Talking about running with sticks shoved up their arse, these guys have their anuses on their heads.
The WoW grind is so amazingly suckish and boring, I don't know how i ever got to 31.
Get 10 of these items off mobs that have a .00001 drop rate.
2million kills later.
You get 3 xp.
YES! only 70million mroe to go to get to lvl 70. And yes, It is approximately 70million exp.
WoW MIGHT be bearable if they made crafting useful, or a crafter class. I was a weaponsmith in SWG, but I respecced partially to Teras Kasi. I was not only able to make USEFUL weapons, but i was able to hold my own against those damn rebels. In WoW, all the classes are either UP or OP.
Still waiting for your Holy Grail MMORPG? Interesting...
May I suggest an alternative?
Use the block function of these forum to weed out individuals that can't be reasoned with. Reading through all the latest posts, it's obvious that the bashing originates from the rambling of blind fanboism rather than the flaws of the game itself. I don't see why you NEED to answer to somebody that his opinion is so unreasonable. Going out of your way to counter this, you just become unreasonable yourself.
The bottom line is that those who loved the classic WoW and went through the lukeworm TBC expansion will probably love LK expansion because it's the true successor to the classic WoW. Those who didn't like the original WoW, won't like the LK expansion either.
One thing that people need to be aware of and I'm not sure that it was mentioned at all is that with the new expansion all PvE content can be accessed and experienced with 10-man groups. Those of you who commented in the past asking for a game like WoW sans the raid part, you now get what you wished for.
Xasa im inclined to agree with you.
I read through all the quotes and could clearly see that while there were some good points in the post, there was some flaming.
Its very difficult (in general) for people of the human race with differing opinions to get along - escipecially when both sides believe what they do so firmly.
Every single post that is purely a "I hate wow" post will never stem any good, nor will ones of the opposit kind. For you guys i think you will have to either agree to disagree or try and reply without flames. Not that I'm blaming either of you.
The only things that I know (as best as is physically possible) is this.
Some people love WoW
Some people hate WoW.
There are people on both sides who troll.
As a personal thing I think Wow is only an average game, but im aware that its diffrent for others.
And WoW will die. Maybe not this year. Maybe not for a long time. But it will die simply because it cannot last forever. It is not perfect (there is no such thing as perfection let alone a perfect game - it always comes down to taste). I know you dont want to hear it, but nothing lasts forever, and anyone wo thinks it will is irrational.
It may be growing, indeed the stats say so, but growth cannot last forever either.
And WHEN it dies whenever that may be, it all likelyhood the MMO genre will be better off.
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies
Folks reread the blue and now you know why the OP is saying this in a Wow forum.
Oh, great. Surely you're not expecting everyone to like the game?
And people say that I am the troll...
What I said is this: You're accusing critics of WoW of trolling on here, while you apparently see nothing wrong in doing the same on the WAR forums, or the Age of Conan ones (where someone actually called you a WoW troll).
I very much like the "some" fact. With 5 million US/EU subs and the competittion stays under 250K, it MAY be that the game is good for "some".
Nobody disagrees that some people might find the game good. However, its subscription figures, as I and others have been pointing out all along, do not preclude "some" people from not liking it. Otherwise, we're quickly falling into "tyranny of the majority" territory where you're not allowed to question something because it so happens to be popular. Are Wal-Mart, Britney Spears and McDonald's necessarily good because they make tons of money? See what I mean?
Some is not the of the same "proportion" here.
.the ONLY one above who gave ARGUMENTS why I think Wow has 11.5 million players was me and I am the troll. What a laugh.
The rest rather spit out opinions without decent arguments.
Apparently, the only "decent arguments" you're willing to consider are "11 million players" and "flying mounts", even though they don't mean anything.
If I don't like the game, are you going to start second-guessing me? Yeah, in fact you did -- "Mr. Level 46" doesn't know if he likes a game or not because he's not level 80, hasn't started to grind for epic gear (to be outdated by the next expansion), and hasn't been playing for a few years. What you're doing, that's the elitist approach to WoW, which has nothing to do with casual or hardcore as it used to be. It's all about how long you've been playing, and what level you are. In your words, I "missed... the game".
If I post here that I don't like lasagna, will you be second-guessing me on that as well by describing how rich the meat sauce is?
I very much find the last sentence disgusting: Blizzard is in NO way responsible for the state of this industry. It showed the industry what a POTENTIAL there was and the others couldn't reach out.
Pity you don't see this and call people who like to play this game trolls on our own forums btw.
See what I mean? "Our own forums". And the Warhammer Online people, are they allowed to have "their own forums" without being told their game is "a joke" across the width and breadth of Europe by the Zorndorfs of this world who then spend the second part of their post extolling the virtues of Wrath of the Lich King? Apparently not.
I will have no qualms about you posting there if you have no qualms about critics of WoW (including mild ones) posting here. Do we have a deal? (Oh but I forget, even "average game" isn't good enough.)
PS. Tell me why are you OBSESSED with wanting Wow to die? All over your posts. Meaning why in the hell you would want a game to ... die ??????
Question: Would you apply this statement to other games as well, or is World of Warcraft the only game being covered by the why-would-you-want-a-game-to-die policy? Unstoppable juggernaut, remember?
And yes, WoW will die, because all things do. I don't want it to either, but to say it won't is just to enter a state of denial.
I don't know if its death will be a good thing for the industry, since then it's just going to be another race between studios to see who can produce the next one to capture its market share. I think we've reached the stage where other companies have stopped trying to beat WoW at its own game, after AoC and WAR's debacles -- but that's going to remain only as long as WoW lives.
That means that as long as WoW is around, other companies could now start to focus on making titles that are completely different from WoW. But I have to ask -- would you tolerate the existence of those non-WoW games, or would you start calling them jokes as well?
Folks reread the blue and now you know why the OP is saying this in a Wow forum.
And people say that I am the troll...
Not me. You have taken my point of view and twisted it. Nothing above I said means WoW sucks. Nothing I said above means I hate it. Indeed the stuff I have said could only be considered "WoW Hating" by those who dont clearly understand what Im saying - which ill try yet again to make clear.
I very much like the "some" fact. With 5 million US/EU subs and the competittion stays under 250K, it MAY be that the game is good for "some".
Some is not the of the same "proportion" here.
Some is no given number, this argument means nothing.
.the ONLY one above who gave ARGUMENTS why I think Wow has 11.5 million players was me and I am the troll. What a laugh.
Yes you made points. Believe it or not I too GAVE REASONS why WoW has 11.5 million players. Its a marketing thing. It's a social thing. In some cases its an addiction. For many it is simply THE RIGHT GAME FOR THEM. But it ISN'T for everbody. That right, not everyone loves WoW.
The rest rather spit out opinions without decent arguments.
Since this is basically a flame I wont bother to counter it.
I very much find the last sentence disgusting: Blizzard is in NO way responsible for the state of this industry. It showed the industry what a POTENTIAL there was and the others couldn't reach out.
I never said it directly was. Indirectly however it is. How can a WoW-clone exist without WoW? IT's not blizzards fault, they cant control it. Your second statement is in line with my argument.
Pity you don't see this and call people who like to play this game trolls on our own forums btw.
They are not anyones forums. They are everybody's forums. To say its your own is once again irrational and perhaps even ignorant. Ex-players have opinions and believe it or not we aren't all trolls. Ass for you actualyl calling me a troll, I have nothing to say to a flame, as above.
PS. Tell me why are you OBSESSED with wanting Wow to die? All over your posts. Meaning why in the hell you would want a game to ... die ??????
Ok. Ill try and clarify this because I know it could read that way but I was assuming you would see it as objective..
I don't want WoW to die, and i never said I did. What I said was
A- It WILL die. I have no idea when, but every MMo dies, every game stops being played. WoW, in all probability will last a long time, but not forever.
B - WHEN it dies, the MMO industry will be better off because of it.
Obviously I want the MMo industry to grow an improve, and of course i would prefer that to happen WITHOUT ANY MMO dieing. So in a way perhaps I do want WoW to die, but it isn't because I don't like it. Its because I care for the MMO industry as a whole.
WoW is a big part of it. It's MY belief that the effects of WoW and what it is doing for the MMO industry will be felt for a long time.
_________________________________________________________
2nd post by Zandorf
Answer to Vetarnias.
You keep following the wrong person. You are following your own tail.
I am the one giving arguments why Wow has so much players. You are the one countering with personal remarks, the one stating general conclusions of things you never experienced in Wow.
I could say that an MMO shouldnt have all of its good content only for those who finish the treadmill, but im sure you will take this for WoW hate. So instead, I simply suggest you don't flame someone for it.
You made conclusions that Wow only had "ganking" PvP, while at level 46, you couldn't have played AV, EoS, Strand sieges or open world PvP in Northrend.
You made general conclusions about Wow class designs, while at lvl 46 you had 35 of the 69 talent settings and a whole bunch of not yet opened up abilities.
I played AoC and WAR extensively and did a few Keep fights in War. You don't know what I talk about if I say "the Wintergrasp castle lays in rumbles". You have no idea what it is, but still making "general conclusions".
You may have your own thought, I only showed the others you didn't see 90% of the game.
It's some people's belief, and I will admit that i personally share it, that an MMO's content shouldt almost entierly be 3/4 of the level cap way up. Journey, not the destination right?
BUT you are under no obligation to agree. AS above, the best thing we can do is agree to disagree about this, instead of personal attacks.
No problem: I talk about games: you talk about persons and I thought you had left (as mentioned in your earlier post).
As for AoC and WAR : they show of their success on their own. Wow is not responsible for the state they are in. That's for Mythic and FunCom to decide.
Both games lack the elements I showed about 10 posts above this one and that's why they fail (to me) and in sub numbers.
For once you admit that is why YOU think it, and i commend you for it. I personally disagree, but i doubt i can change your mind so I wont press it if I dont have to.
So your problem is someone countered with good and decent arguments.
Gone are the days you could shit on Wow on mmorpg.com. In fact that's why I react, to have some counterweight to the ridiculous mostly unfounded hatred towards the best selling PC game of the last 4 years.
All I can say is that WoW isn't the best selling game of the last 4 years, just the best selling MMO.
Stating that the death of one game would be a good thing to the MMO world (read the post I was reacting to), when all you have as an alternative is DAoC, AoC, War and Lotro is suicidal at best.
First, its your personal opinion those MMo's suck, not everyone shares that.
But, more to the point you have misread my previous posts. I didn't think it would be better for the MMO industry because the players would migrate to those said MMO's. For all I know they to will be dead (And in reality probably will be by the time WoW does) when WoW does.
It is my belief the GENERAL world of MMO will benefit because Gave Developers will see a free market. where this is a big market, there is big competition. And in the world of games, competition means more quality, innovation etc.
I judge the sucess of the MMO world by the innovation and quality that is seen by al the MMO's existing time of said judgment. Obviosuly, quality is a matter of opinion, but innovation is more objective.
The current MMO world, and im sure ill cop flak for this, is lacking in innovation. How many MMO's can you name that aren't combat based?
Galaxies? Even that at its core had combat. Sure, it had housing, but Galaxies player run econemy wouldn't exist without comabt - and people to buy weapons.
Arguably innovation doesnt nesscarily mean not having combat, but my point is that alot of MMO's are similar, at their core, to each other. *continued in my post*
And while I am at it. Yes I called War a joke, but you called it in your own post above "a debacle". Just another expression why the one leads to the other I guess.
"evil begists evil" or perhaps "flame begits flame".
Do as the south africans did in South Africa. Say your sorry and then forgive.
(Hope but doubt this will happen)
*Continued*
Maybe I'm wrong.
Im not oracle, no super genius, and I never claimed to be.
Maybe WoW will die and the players will leave the MMO genre.
Maybe a new WoW will form - a completely diffrent game but like WoW, has all the players.
Or maybe, by some immposinility that defies all existing logic and will somehow last forever.(THIS IS NOT A FLAME AGAINST WOW - It is INEVITABLE. Just like every other game in history, it will eventually stop being played. Maybe it will last beyond my death, but like me, its death is inevitable. even if it take 100 years)
There are many things that could happen and no-one can see the future.
But, when I personally examine and use the logic that i have, hwoever it differs from each person in the world, I see the most liekly thing happening is the MMO community being better off with WoW's death.
And thats why I LOVE WOW.
It the words of my father, avid gamer and best friend.
"Deal with it".
Take the Hecatomb TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.
Sadly miss:
Fury, Pre-Cu Galaxies