If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.
The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.
Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I actually kind of liked Ryzom in the open beta testing...but the download screwed up my wife's PC, and got me into a bunch of bad faction heh
She wasnt the only one...others had tons of problems with the game, and they launched anyways due to money concerns I guess. We see how that one went.
I mainly liked the "cutesy" look of the characters, cause it was totally different.
Was even doing a little with the tradeskilling...but was checking out how all of it worked. Damn pain meds kill my memory anymore, but seems like it allowed ya to decide how to go forward with skills(skill tree type). Seems like it had levels as well though...although cant say for sure. Might be wrong.
I like the skill tree stuff like they have with EQ (alternate advancement)and some other level based games. EQ allows ya to get all the AA points if you spend the time, or you can just have a few of them if you dont play much.
If you limit how many pts can be spent ala EQ2 and WoW, it makes for different builds. That is as far as they should go with mix/matching in classes IMO.
When you allow folks to take up every class, then you have a balance nightmare on your hands ala SWG.
I want Devs to spend time on content...not balancing the classes with each new patch.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I actually kind of liked Ryzom in the open beta testing...but the download screwed up my wife's PC, and got me into a bunch of bad faction heh She wasnt the only one...others had tons of problems with the game, and they launched anyways due to money concerns I guess. We see how that one went. I mainly liked the "cutesy" look of the characters, cause it was totally different. Was even doing a little with the tradeskilling...but was checking out how all of it worked. Damn pain meds kill my memory anymore, but seems like it allowed ya to decide how to go forward with skills(skill tree type). Seems like it had levels as well though...although cant say for sure. Might be wrong. I like the skill tree stuff like they have with EQ (alternate advancement)and some other level based games. EQ allows ya to get all the AA points if you spend the time, or you can just have a few of them if you dont play much. If you limit how many pts can be spent ala EQ2 and WoW, it makes for different builds. That is as far as they should go with mix/matching in classes IMO. When you allow folks to take up every class, then you have a balance nightmare on your hands ala SWG. I want Devs to spend time on content...not balancing the classes with each new patch.
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
My oldest firend(about 35 yrs) and his wife just had their second child in Nov. She was born with a blocked intestine, and part of intestine had problems.
They have been down to the University of Michigan Hospital the past couple of months, but this last surgery is supposed to be it. Amazing what medicine can do these days.
I wish you smooth sailing for your new child.
Sometimes I miss mine being that young(will be 14 and 18), but at other times am glad they are pretty much grown heh
Take care friend
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
The good part is that some companies are realizing there are more than the "100K" gamers out there that was mentioned above by someone who enjoy creating their own content. Even Bioware knows this for a fact evidence their NWN and NWN2 games and the worlds that people have created and the players that continue to enjoy that player made content to this day.
It's still amazing, though, that some folks (commenting in general here) don't realize that if you put both methods together and polish you'll create a superior product.
*shrug*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I have been MMO gaming since 01...in that time a themepark has always ruled North America subs.
Up until a couple of years ago, EQ ruled anything that had come from the sandbox world. It didnt have an established IP, but it sure kicked the hell out of SWG now didnt it?
YOu replace the IPs on the games....EQ have the SW theme, and SWG have the EQ theme and see what happens...the 100k or so subs that EQ had over SWG would of been 300k or more. I bet.
EVE....is it the sandbox that brings the subs in? Or is it the fact that it has captured a nice portion of the PvP crowd? I say it has more to do with the PvP.
Sandbox games just dont appeal to the majority of gamers like the directed content does. Argue it anyway ya want to...still isnt going to change what myself, and the majority of others see as our preferred gaming style.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
Khal.... I have been MMO gaming since 01...in that time a themepark has always ruled North America subs. Up until a couple of years ago, EQ ruled anything that had come from the sandbox world. It didnt have an established IP, but it sure kicked the hell out of SWG now didnt it? YOu replace the IPs on the games....EQ have the SW theme, and SWG have the EQ theme and see what happens...the 100k or so subs that EQ had over SWG would of been 300k or more. I bet. EVE....is it the sandbox that brings the subs in? Or is it the fact that it has captured a nice portion of the PvP crowd? I say it has more to do with the PvP. Sandbox games just dont appeal to the majority of gamers like the directed content does. Argue it anyway ya want to...still isnt going to change what myself, and the majority of others see as our preferred gaming style.
Moaky07
I've been MMO gaming since 98. Nice to meet you. NA MMOs started off with UO, which was a sandbox and pretty darn fun. I miss it.
Hmm, I'd have to disagree with you here as I don't see EQ as a sandbox game. It did have elements of the sandbox method with regard to its crafting system, but overall it was more themepark to me. Incuded in my definition of sandbox is the ability to construct, build and leave your(the player's) mark on the world in a meaningful way. This includes personal housing, organizational structures and the like. EQ did not have this. As examples I would offer UO, AC and SWG.
Additionally, EQ was fantasy themed, where SWG was sci-fi themed. It has been numerically proven time and again fantasy wins out over sci-fi. We may not like it, but that's the way it is.
With respect to EvE, I'd say it's the sandbox and the PvP. I think it's a little more of the sandbox because with the sandbox method it allows for players to construct building and bases and other world structures that give rise to player conflict. If players don't have anything tangible to battle over, why battle? Because I can? That, to me, gets old quick. Because of the storyline? That may give good cause for a while, but it too can wear away. But give me the opportunity to put something in the world that I or my organization can claim as "mine" and it becomes a bastion of our ideals, a rallying point of our existence in the game world. EvE does that. EQ didn't.
And I'll continue to argue it in a logical manner. You want to maintain that it has to be either or, which is fine. I disagree. I will continue to argue that if you marry the two a greater game shall arise. Pleasing more people and having more subscriptions is a good thing. It can be done.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.
Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.
And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.
It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.
If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.
So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?
It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.
You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.
Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO. If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent. The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me. Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.
Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.
And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.
It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.
If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.
So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?
It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.
You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.
Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.
Well, I'm fairly sure you aren't omnipotent, so forgive me if I don't believe you when you say it doesn't work that way. And please, keep your pity. I don't need it from you. As for getting sandbox games built, they are being done. I'm sure the condescenion that is wreaking from your posts may have blinded you to that fact, though.
And if you are sick of hearing from me, don't read my posts, simple as that.
And, on that note, I have to make it to a Scout meeting. Trying to explain I skipped out on them to argue tp and SB, well, they probably wouldn't get it.
Oh, and no need to reply to me, though I wouldn't be surprised if you had to get in the last word. It's clear you maintain to look down you nose and would rather stick to name calling, snide comments and pseudo-veiled insults than, oh, actually discuss a topic.
Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!
(see, now I'm doing it. It spreads like a disease, I tell ya!)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
LoL...here he goes making a fool of himself again.
First off Moak, neither you nor I have any idea what (if any) sandbox elements will be included in SWTOR...that information has yet to be revealed.
Second, I just LOVE the way you seem to know how much money and time it would take to make a game that can appeal to both styles of players. As if you were signing the checks or something. You DON'T know.
In fact, it is far more likely that due to the short-cuts possible by licensing a pre-developed engine, that developing hours and budget are FAR less of an issue than you would like to make them out to be.
And considering tha fact that many of the TOR DEV team are former SWG devs, one never knows what direction TOR might take on the sandbox content issue.
At this point, VERY little is certain about SWTOR's content or design. All we can really do is speculate.
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!
Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)
And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.
And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?
LoL...here he goes making a fool of himself again. First off Moak, neither you nor I have any idea what (if any) sandbox elements will be included in SWTOR...that information has yet to be revealed. Second, I just LOVE the way you seem to know how much money and time it would take to make a game that can appeal to both styles of players. As if you were signing the checks or something. You DON'T know. In fact, it is far more likely that due to the short-cuts possible by licensing a pre-developed engine, that developing hours and budget are FAR less of an issue than you would like to make them out to be. And considering tha fact that many of the TOR DEV team are former SWG devs, one never knows what direction TOR might take on the sandbox content issue. At this point, VERY little is certain about SWTOR's content or design. All we can really do is speculate.
Well if I am making a fool of myself, I wonder what ya call the folks stomping their feet for over 3 yrs about losing the PRECioUs? Oh thats right...they are "normal". Pfft whatever.
As far as cost...how can it not be an issue? If they have 50M to put into game lets say....a good portion of that would have to go into sandbox aspects if you are wanting polished sandbox included. Only makes sense. Well the money spent on the sandbox is money taken away from directed/polished content.
I luv how you think they are doing this project with open pockets. That 50m isnt probably that far off the mark. Probably more like 75 to 100M...but still dont see them not having a budget.
And for the type of game Bioware is going to make...I sure dont remember ever playing a sandbox by them. I suppose there is a first time for everyone.
I will be glad when it is cemented about what they are gong to make...but with a story driven game, being made by a company that isnt about sandboxes...I would have to think we wont be seeing SWG2.
ANd Khal...you made it personal. When I said sick of hearing....it was along the lines of " sick of hearing about sandboxes". It wasnt as a "Khal blows". That may be a true statment about ya, but wasnt my intention. Honest injun.
As far as the rest of my last post...I luv the "talk with an adult" comment. Only a child discounts legitimate discussion...which is what appeared to be going on until you had to go. Totally discounting the way I feel about mixing game styles, and the reasons why. Very mature /golfclap
BTW that "last word" comment is very 1980s....my Mom used to hit me with that in my teens. Now be a good scout, and I will take the last word :P
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
"Astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and lead us from this world to another." Plato. ______________________________________________________________________________
Originally posted by Khalathwyr Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!
Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)
And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.
And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?
I haven't looked at Dream Mirror Online. I know Mabinogi doesn't interest me. If DMO has a similiar look then I probably won't be interested either. Substance is good but honestly noone likes to dance with someone they think is ugly. Flaw of humanity I guess.
UO is still around, though it has changed greatly since the days when I played it back in the late 90s. There's an "elf" race in there now. This and other changes were to me like mixing coffee and orange juice. I like them separately but together, not so much.
Vanguard. Well, this is where I reserve the right of a consumer to boycott. I was on board with Sigil until they announced business relations with SOE. Granted, I don't post on any forum daily ranting on how evil SOE is, but I still remember well how they chose, for business reasons, to "dump" me as a customer and for that reason I chose to never patronize them again. It's a decision that has worked well...for me anyway. I hear SWG isn't doing so hot now (by that I mean under 50K subs).
You, how we were talking about marrying the two up, themepark and Sandbox? I think Asheron's Call was a glimpse of that. Monthly dynamic "main story" content with sandbox elements. It was a pretty successful game at that, too. Turbine is still the largest privately owned MMO company even before LOTRO and DDO launched. I think the AC setup is a good base, barebones format to begin with, keeping the dynamic month to month main story, adding more of the directed content and further expanding it's crafting system and player housing/structure systems.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I guess Pirates of the Burning Sea is out of the question then?
And yeah, I'm with you on the whole SOE thing. Though I must admit, I am a little intrigued with DC Online and The Agency. Granted, I don't have high expectations for either, but gotta give SOE credit for at least putting out a couple of preview trailers that do look relatively polished and appealing. That said, they'd probably make for better single-player PS3 games than anything else.
Grr, if Flying Labs Studios would dump SOE I'd sign up pretty quickly. I can't tell you how many hours I have played Sid Meier's Pirates. I think that I would enjoy myself in that game but I have to stick to some principles and the SOE ban is one.
I've never really been a comic fan other than Batman so I missed COH/COV and am not interested in DC Online. The Agency only holds a tiny interest because of my love for the show 24. Unfortunatly, though, it is one I'll miss too.
The next games I will hopefully be trying this year are Mortal Online, Earthrise and Fallen Earth. The break does me good, however, as I just got my second White German Shepherd and I have plenty of time to train her basic commands and to walk on a leash without pulling the wife all over the neighborhood.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
CoH used to have some of the best fighting in a MMO that I ever saw. Problem being that the questing got stale fast, and their really wasnt anything that made ya wanna progress after so long. Cept maybe just to be high lvl...the quest missions bored me more than any game I think I ever played.
Well maybe SWG nOOb exp...when you had to grind just to be able to pay to train for leveling skills(you shouldnt have to farm money at lvl 4/5 ish in a game...those lvls should be about getting to know game and having fun.). Once you are getting to understand how to get around...say lvl 10/15/20/etc...then start throwing that stuff into the equation. If a game has things like death penalties/complex gameplay anyways, the new player is already gonna have enough on their mind. Those first 20 lvls are what makes/breaks a lot of games IMO.
CoH also didnt use slots on your char for upgraded loot other than adding tokens to your powers. That was a majorly bad design decision IMO. They tried to correct it later on, but unsure what all they have put in. I think it is more about casual play till this very day though, as I never hear about end game raiding, and things of that nature.
I havent subbed in like 2 yrs or so now, and will probably break out a month or 2 before the end of 09...just to knock a mob off side of mountain again...nothing like it in MMOs AFAIAC
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Notably all but one are in production. The good part is that some companies are realizing there are more than the "100K" gamers out there that was mentioned above by someone who enjoy creating their own content. Even Bioware knows this for a fact evidence their NWN and NWN2 games and the worlds that people have created and the players that continue to enjoy that player made content to this day. It's still amazing, though, that some folks (commenting in general here) don't realize that if you put both methods together and polish you'll create a superior product. *shrug*
Too true and better said then I could have
Just wanting to say to Moaky, you told me to get my hand out of the sand earlier. May I suggest you do the very same? And quit harping on your seniority it does nothing to validate what you say. Obviously you haven't been keeping up with current MMO trends because if you had there's no way you would have tried to invalidate what some of us were saying.
No one is advocating a pure sandbox as far as I can tell in this thread, while your points are more then valid your stubborn attempts at negating the popularity of player generated content is short sighted. And instead on relying on your so called experience I'd invite you to visit Bioware and Bethesda's modding communites. Looking up moblin mazes in FFXI and I guess I have to say it again, sandbox ELEMENTS already exist in theme park MMOs and are an essential part of them.
We are not trying to say MMOs should go back to pure shoot yourself in the head in difficulty 'sandbox' game, but a blending of the two genres would make for the perfect or at least a very awesome MMO.
This is going to be a "modern" MMO, like the popular World of Warcraft. This is not going to be a sandbox MMO, like the old Star Wars Galaxies. You will follow the quest lines, have zones that are meant for specific levels, do a lot of soloing, have a crafting system that's no more than a nice extra, have only combat classes, etc. It's true. The only thing SW:ToR shares with SWG is the setting. The games will be nothing alike. If you have not played WoW yet, do so now, and you might be able to enjoy SW:ToR when it is released. I do hope we have a nice community with many SW fans, but if you don't get SWG out of your system you will be disappointed.
i can honestly say without any shadow of doubt that you are an idiot.
This is going to be a "modern" MMO, like the popular World of Warcraft. This is not going to be a sandbox MMO, like the old Star Wars Galaxies. You will follow the quest lines, have zones that are meant for specific levels, do a lot of soloing, have a crafting system that's no more than a nice extra, have only combat classes, etc. It's true. The only thing SW:ToR shares with SWG is the setting. The games will be nothing alike. If you have not played WoW yet, do so now, and you might be able to enjoy SW:ToR when it is released. I do hope we have a nice community with many SW fans, but if you don't get SWG out of your system you will be disappointed.
Awww, and i really anted a good SW game : (
Some players thought levels and classes was fun maybe five years ago.....but why will the devs keep doing it?
Comments
Quality doesnt mean along the lines of SWG IMO.
If you wanna talk about more involved ala EQ....sure I am right there with ya Pent.
The second you start talking about a "sim" aka sandbox, then you close a big chunk of the gaming community out...including me.
Shame the sandboxers just dont get it. It isnt anything about "dumbing down"...it is more about "who gives a chit about Uncle Owen?". I know I sure dont.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
here, some games for disgruntled vets
www.eve-online.com/
www.mortalonline.com/
www.fallenearth.com/
www.play-earthrise.com/
www.darkfallonline.com/ (/snicker)
You left out Ryzom Mr Miagisan
I actually kind of liked Ryzom in the open beta testing...but the download screwed up my wife's PC, and got me into a bunch of bad faction heh
She wasnt the only one...others had tons of problems with the game, and they launched anyways due to money concerns I guess. We see how that one went.
I mainly liked the "cutesy" look of the characters, cause it was totally different.
Was even doing a little with the tradeskilling...but was checking out how all of it worked. Damn pain meds kill my memory anymore, but seems like it allowed ya to decide how to go forward with skills(skill tree type). Seems like it had levels as well though...although cant say for sure. Might be wrong.
I like the skill tree stuff like they have with EQ (alternate advancement)and some other level based games. EQ allows ya to get all the AA points if you spend the time, or you can just have a few of them if you dont play much.
If you limit how many pts can be spent ala EQ2 and WoW, it makes for different builds. That is as far as they should go with mix/matching in classes IMO.
When you allow folks to take up every class, then you have a balance nightmare on your hands ala SWG.
I want Devs to spend time on content...not balancing the classes with each new patch.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
sorry
did it while i was feeding my 1 month old
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Ah Gratz then Miagi on the newborn
My oldest firend(about 35 yrs) and his wife just had their second child in Nov. She was born with a blocked intestine, and part of intestine had problems.
They have been down to the University of Michigan Hospital the past couple of months, but this last surgery is supposed to be it. Amazing what medicine can do these days.
I wish you smooth sailing for your new child.
Sometimes I miss mine being that young(will be 14 and 18), but at other times am glad they are pretty much grown heh
Take care friend
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Notably all but one are in production.
The good part is that some companies are realizing there are more than the "100K" gamers out there that was mentioned above by someone who enjoy creating their own content. Even Bioware knows this for a fact evidence their NWN and NWN2 games and the worlds that people have created and the players that continue to enjoy that player made content to this day.
It's still amazing, though, that some folks (commenting in general here) don't realize that if you put both methods together and polish you'll create a superior product.
*shrug*
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Khal....
I have been MMO gaming since 01...in that time a themepark has always ruled North America subs.
Up until a couple of years ago, EQ ruled anything that had come from the sandbox world. It didnt have an established IP, but it sure kicked the hell out of SWG now didnt it?
YOu replace the IPs on the games....EQ have the SW theme, and SWG have the EQ theme and see what happens...the 100k or so subs that EQ had over SWG would of been 300k or more. I bet.
EVE....is it the sandbox that brings the subs in? Or is it the fact that it has captured a nice portion of the PvP crowd? I say it has more to do with the PvP.
Sandbox games just dont appeal to the majority of gamers like the directed content does. Argue it anyway ya want to...still isnt going to change what myself, and the majority of others see as our preferred gaming style.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
Moaky07
I've been MMO gaming since 98. Nice to meet you. NA MMOs started off with UO, which was a sandbox and pretty darn fun. I miss it.
Hmm, I'd have to disagree with you here as I don't see EQ as a sandbox game. It did have elements of the sandbox method with regard to its crafting system, but overall it was more themepark to me. Incuded in my definition of sandbox is the ability to construct, build and leave your(the player's) mark on the world in a meaningful way. This includes personal housing, organizational structures and the like. EQ did not have this. As examples I would offer UO, AC and SWG.
Additionally, EQ was fantasy themed, where SWG was sci-fi themed. It has been numerically proven time and again fantasy wins out over sci-fi. We may not like it, but that's the way it is.
With respect to EvE, I'd say it's the sandbox and the PvP. I think it's a little more of the sandbox because with the sandbox method it allows for players to construct building and bases and other world structures that give rise to player conflict. If players don't have anything tangible to battle over, why battle? Because I can? That, to me, gets old quick. Because of the storyline? That may give good cause for a while, but it too can wear away. But give me the opportunity to put something in the world that I or my organization can claim as "mine" and it becomes a bastion of our ideals, a rallying point of our existence in the game world. EvE does that. EQ didn't.
And I'll continue to argue it in a logical manner. You want to maintain that it has to be either or, which is fine. I disagree. I will continue to argue that if you marry the two a greater game shall arise. Pleasing more people and having more subscriptions is a good thing. It can be done.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.
Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.
And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.
It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.
If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.
So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?
It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.
You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.
Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Thing is, SWG was a step in the right direction. Sure, SOE then went and took the game in the WRONG direction, but the game got more right than many of us have seen in other attempts.
But why the Hell can't a game have a good sandbox foundation, with well-written story-based quest content as well?? THIS would be the game that everyone could play and enjoy.
YOU don't give a shit about "Uncle Owen", but a LOT of people do. You fail to realise that your statement is a double-edged sword. Yes, taking content out of a game in order to simplify it IS "dumbing down". It's making the game simpler so that even idiots can play it. As a result, those with > half a brain are left bored to tears.
IMO, games like WAR and AoC shouldn't even be MMOs. They should have been variations of an FPS.
They would be taking the FPS genre forward, you see....instead of taking the MMO genre into the fucking ground.
Um no they dont...am not gonna argue semantics with ya. WoWs numbers tell the story better than anything I could post. If you think it is Uncle Owen folks are looking for, then methinks you dont have a friggen clue about what sells video game boxes.
Uncle Owen might garner 100k or so for a MMO....great...run with it.
In the meantime, it would be nice if you sandboxers would STFU in other game forums so that the play style that is intended can be discussed. The numbers come from directed content play. The only question really is how "hard" do you wanna make it. Do you bring back things from EQ's launch(Hell lvls, harder leveling, forced grping, and a whole slew of others things that are missing in todays games)
MMORPG.com never seems to be anything more than some vet piping up about the "PRECioUs"...the chit is beyond old. Problem being it just isnt popular mainstream, and that is where the money is. You "sandboxers" just dont seem to get it either.
Bottom line is this:
This game isnt a sandbox, so really, why dont you guys leave it alone already? YOu didnt get SWG2...just like with the NGE...so get over it already sheesh. Find a game that is about sandbox play, and post there. Otherwise all you guys are doing is inciting flames over something that has no relevence here.
WoW numbers tell the story of an established, global IP (Warcraft) that had years to permeate the world and build a fanbase coupled with a game that was fairly well polished (better than those of late) at release. I hardly think it is a champion of what the themepark model is. If that were so, even games with less polish would have "WoW numbers" right now, and they don't. Companies have been trying to develope a game to draw "WoW numbers" and it hasn't gotten them very far. It don't work. Even games like WAR (with the well established GW IP) and AoC(with all of the raving Howard fans out there) can't do it.
My point? Bringing up WoW numbers as a metric is invalid. It is invalid because until it can be proven and done again, it simply boils down to the right time, right place phenomena.
It seems to be that you think I don't "get it" because I prefer sandbox. Themepark brings more money, you say. Well, I'd offer that you in turn really don't get it, as making a polished game with both elements would draw both crowds. That, to me, is the most logical thing to do if we are talking maximizing your subscriptions and income.
But, if you, and others on both sides (themepark and sandbox) want to continue in the vein of "being right" or for some reason feel personally offended by the other side, I suppose you will toss out the next logical step and stick to your guns.
And the MMO genre will continue to put out its WARs and Vanguards and AoCs because they have a customer base that won't realize they can have more and that slapping another known IP or rehashing an old one isn't "innovation".
Que sera.
Ah, you saved me having to say it. thanks.
And let me tell ya something Moaky...the reason it seems there are sandbox advocates everywhere is because tehre are a Hell of a lot more than 100k of us.
In fact, One could argue that there are PLENTY of theme-park games out there already...so why don't you go play them??
It's time for games that have more than just "follow the breadcrumbs" gameplay.
It seems to me I am in the forum of a game that is about directed content...not sandbox. Why dont you GTFO, and find a forum that is appropriate to your gaming style Pent, rather than directing me elsewhere.
Amazing how that works eh? I am in the correct spot...pity you arent.
And Khal about your comment pertaining to wanting both worlds in a game....doesnt work that way. Too much money involved to flesh out a fully functional game containing both aspects. Folks wanting directed content wanna kill things, or quest to get their nice items. Sandboxes incorporate utilizing Uncle Owen to make the high quality items in game. Tradeskill folks content comes from adventurers buying their wares.
It may be great to the Uncle Owens to have all the neat stuff come thru them. But to myself, and others like me that enjoy directed content, I think Uncle Owen should sign up for unemployment...I want nothing to do with being forced to get my wares from them. I wanna kill/quest for my things. Kill the big bad dragon and oops...got a few credits...get a few more and I might can buy something from Uncle Owen. I dont think so. You kill the big bad dragon, then you get the best stuff in game. Or you quest for it...it sure isnt all made by tradeskillers.
If you have tradeskills like in EQ, where it is an afterthought then it works in directed content....it isnt meant to be a gamestyle, just an add on. But when you place it into a game with importance along the line of adventuring classes, that is when it has crossed the line in a loot-centric game.
So basically stating...the 2 play styles dont match, the cost would be astronomical compared to making one or the other...so why bother?
It seems crazy to invest money on sandbox play in a game intended to be directed content, when instead that investment can go to make more content and/or add polish.
You "sandboxers" are trying to get your gamestyle incorporated into directed content games, and it has no business there. Pity you dont try to get your own games built, and leave games not intended to be sandboxes alone.
Cause I know I dont speak for everyone, but there are a lot of us that are sick of hearing from ya. Go to the Legos forum...that looks to be a sandbox...and yet no one is posting there. Why is that? If sandbox is so great, then support the games that are going to utilize it.
Well, I'm fairly sure you aren't omnipotent, so forgive me if I don't believe you when you say it doesn't work that way. And please, keep your pity. I don't need it from you. As for getting sandbox games built, they are being done. I'm sure the condescenion that is wreaking from your posts may have blinded you to that fact, though.
And if you are sick of hearing from me, don't read my posts, simple as that.
And, on that note, I have to make it to a Scout meeting. Trying to explain I skipped out on them to argue tp and SB, well, they probably wouldn't get it.
Oh, and no need to reply to me, though I wouldn't be surprised if you had to get in the last word. It's clear you maintain to look down you nose and would rather stick to name calling, snide comments and pseudo-veiled insults than, oh, actually discuss a topic.
Han, where you at. I need another adult to disagree with!
(see, now I'm doing it. It spreads like a disease, I tell ya!)
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
LoL...here he goes making a fool of himself again.
First off Moak, neither you nor I have any idea what (if any) sandbox elements will be included in SWTOR...that information has yet to be revealed.
Second, I just LOVE the way you seem to know how much money and time it would take to make a game that can appeal to both styles of players. As if you were signing the checks or something. You DON'T know.
In fact, it is far more likely that due to the short-cuts possible by licensing a pre-developed engine, that developing hours and budget are FAR less of an issue than you would like to make them out to be.
And considering tha fact that many of the TOR DEV team are former SWG devs, one never knows what direction TOR might take on the sandbox content issue.
At this point, VERY little is certain about SWTOR's content or design. All we can really do is speculate.
Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)
And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.
And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?
Well if I am making a fool of myself, I wonder what ya call the folks stomping their feet for over 3 yrs about losing the PRECioUs? Oh thats right...they are "normal". Pfft whatever.
As far as cost...how can it not be an issue? If they have 50M to put into game lets say....a good portion of that would have to go into sandbox aspects if you are wanting polished sandbox included. Only makes sense. Well the money spent on the sandbox is money taken away from directed/polished content.
I luv how you think they are doing this project with open pockets. That 50m isnt probably that far off the mark. Probably more like 75 to 100M...but still dont see them not having a budget.
And for the type of game Bioware is going to make...I sure dont remember ever playing a sandbox by them. I suppose there is a first time for everyone.
I will be glad when it is cemented about what they are gong to make...but with a story driven game, being made by a company that isnt about sandboxes...I would have to think we wont be seeing SWG2.
ANd Khal...you made it personal. When I said sick of hearing....it was along the lines of " sick of hearing about sandboxes". It wasnt as a "Khal blows". That may be a true statment about ya, but wasnt my intention. Honest injun.
As far as the rest of my last post...I luv the "talk with an adult" comment. Only a child discounts legitimate discussion...which is what appeared to be going on until you had to go. Totally discounting the way I feel about mixing game styles, and the reasons why. Very mature /golfclap
BTW that "last word" comment is very 1980s....my Mom used to hit me with that in my teens. Now be a good scout, and I will take the last word :P
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I sure hope that the swg veterans will consider trying this out when it gets released. swg had the best community ever. would love to have that again
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"Astronomy compels the soul to look upwards and lead us from this world to another." Plato.
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Sorry. This banter was getting a bit too reiterative and childish for my tastes. Maybe Pentamorph and Moaky need to make out already and break the sexual tension. (I kid! I kid!)
And while we're giggling, there are some "sandboxy" F2P games out there like Dream of Mirror Online and Mabinogi. If you can get past the cutsey graphics and cash shops, you might be surprised at what they have to offer.
And whatever happened to UO or Vanguard? Those aren't sandboxes?
I haven't looked at Dream Mirror Online. I know Mabinogi doesn't interest me. If DMO has a similiar look then I probably won't be interested either. Substance is good but honestly noone likes to dance with someone they think is ugly. Flaw of humanity I guess.
UO is still around, though it has changed greatly since the days when I played it back in the late 90s. There's an "elf" race in there now. This and other changes were to me like mixing coffee and orange juice. I like them separately but together, not so much.
Vanguard. Well, this is where I reserve the right of a consumer to boycott. I was on board with Sigil until they announced business relations with SOE. Granted, I don't post on any forum daily ranting on how evil SOE is, but I still remember well how they chose, for business reasons, to "dump" me as a customer and for that reason I chose to never patronize them again. It's a decision that has worked well...for me anyway. I hear SWG isn't doing so hot now (by that I mean under 50K subs).
You, how we were talking about marrying the two up, themepark and Sandbox? I think Asheron's Call was a glimpse of that. Monthly dynamic "main story" content with sandbox elements. It was a pretty successful game at that, too. Turbine is still the largest privately owned MMO company even before LOTRO and DDO launched. I think the AC setup is a good base, barebones format to begin with, keeping the dynamic month to month main story, adding more of the directed content and further expanding it's crafting system and player housing/structure systems.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I guess Pirates of the Burning Sea is out of the question then?
And yeah, I'm with you on the whole SOE thing. Though I must admit, I am a little intrigued with DC Online and The Agency. Granted, I don't have high expectations for either, but gotta give SOE credit for at least putting out a couple of preview trailers that do look relatively polished and appealing. That said, they'd probably make for better single-player PS3 games than anything else.
Grr, if Flying Labs Studios would dump SOE I'd sign up pretty quickly. I can't tell you how many hours I have played Sid Meier's Pirates. I think that I would enjoy myself in that game but I have to stick to some principles and the SOE ban is one.
I've never really been a comic fan other than Batman so I missed COH/COV and am not interested in DC Online. The Agency only holds a tiny interest because of my love for the show 24. Unfortunatly, though, it is one I'll miss too.
The next games I will hopefully be trying this year are Mortal Online, Earthrise and Fallen Earth. The break does me good, however, as I just got my second White German Shepherd and I have plenty of time to train her basic commands and to walk on a leash without pulling the wife all over the neighborhood.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Khal
CoH used to have some of the best fighting in a MMO that I ever saw. Problem being that the questing got stale fast, and their really wasnt anything that made ya wanna progress after so long. Cept maybe just to be high lvl...the quest missions bored me more than any game I think I ever played.
Well maybe SWG nOOb exp...when you had to grind just to be able to pay to train for leveling skills(you shouldnt have to farm money at lvl 4/5 ish in a game...those lvls should be about getting to know game and having fun.). Once you are getting to understand how to get around...say lvl 10/15/20/etc...then start throwing that stuff into the equation. If a game has things like death penalties/complex gameplay anyways, the new player is already gonna have enough on their mind. Those first 20 lvls are what makes/breaks a lot of games IMO.
CoH also didnt use slots on your char for upgraded loot other than adding tokens to your powers. That was a majorly bad design decision IMO. They tried to correct it later on, but unsure what all they have put in. I think it is more about casual play till this very day though, as I never hear about end game raiding, and things of that nature.
I havent subbed in like 2 yrs or so now, and will probably break out a month or 2 before the end of 09...just to knock a mob off side of mountain again...nothing like it in MMOs AFAIAC
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Too true and better said then I could have
Just wanting to say to Moaky, you told me to get my hand out of the sand earlier. May I suggest you do the very same? And quit harping on your seniority it does nothing to validate what you say. Obviously you haven't been keeping up with current MMO trends because if you had there's no way you would have tried to invalidate what some of us were saying.
No one is advocating a pure sandbox as far as I can tell in this thread, while your points are more then valid your stubborn attempts at negating the popularity of player generated content is short sighted. And instead on relying on your so called experience I'd invite you to visit Bioware and Bethesda's modding communites. Looking up moblin mazes in FFXI and I guess I have to say it again, sandbox ELEMENTS already exist in theme park MMOs and are an essential part of them.
We are not trying to say MMOs should go back to pure shoot yourself in the head in difficulty 'sandbox' game, but a blending of the two genres would make for the perfect or at least a very awesome MMO.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
i can honestly say without any shadow of doubt that you are an idiot.
Awww, and i really anted a good SW game : (
Some players thought levels and classes was fun maybe five years ago.....but why will the devs keep doing it?