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Here's the problem with the movie/restaurant analogy thing.
Sure, you might have gone to see a movie you just happened to notice passing by the theater and wouldn't have known about otherwise, but what are the chances that when you walked into the theater after purchasing the ticket, the movie consisted of a bunch of people crowded around some guys laptop trying to watch the movie as he illegally streamed it off the internet.
Same with the restaurant. You called, prepaid for a reservation, then showed up at the location only to find a bum holding a greasy paper bag containing a few cold cheeseburgers.
Now in both of the above situations, the probability of what I described happening is pretty much nil. There's just no history of people getting suckered like that with movies and/or restaurants.
Is there a history of deception with MMOs, however? You bet your ass there is. Mourning anyone? Dark and Light? In both instances, people paid for a preorder (that they couldn't get back) for something that was a mere husk of what was promised (I'm being generous here by saying 'husk').
People have every right to be skeptical of Darkfall. The events that are transpiring now are strikingly similar to what has happened at least twice before.
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
How would you know if other people eat there? Do you only check their references if no one is in when you stop by? Or do you stake the place out to make sure it's legit?
There's no proof the movie exists until it shows up on the screen. Sure there's advertisements and posters and buzz and the word of the production company ... but proof that a casual person has before buying the ticket? Hell, we've gone to see movies I didn't even know existed until passing by the theatre and seeing the advertisement out front.
I'd be willing to donate the $50 if it got me in beta, actually.
Or you could do what most people do; Word of mouth.
Friends will see a movie, eat at a resturant, etc. If I am skeptical about it, I wait to hear what they have to say about it. Same goes for games.
Holding a game in NDA upto release is preventing word of mouth, and always for one reason: The Game Is Bad. If a company is sure of thier product they will drop the NDA. If they know thier game will fail to get the sales it needs from the start they keep the NDA and claim its all sunshine and roses.
I mean if your willing to give money to a company with a shady product, thats fine. But to get annoyed when someone tells others to not drop hard earned money on a product until they actually see it is just retarded.
Yes, Fyerwall that would be the most logical and reasonable thing to do. But clearly Sarg01 really, really, really wants to get rid of that $50 for sure. I tell you what Sarg01, "I work for Aventurine and I have the authority to let you in on our little private ongoing beta that only a few of us <wink wink> are currently in. I am going to take down your credit card information and charge you $50 to play in our beta for Darkfall. Ready to charge that card now?"
I know this may sound ridiculous but this is exactly what you are saying. You are willing to give your money to whoever will take it from you without little proof or evidence that they are even legit. You might as well just give it to me!
NOTE: Dear god, must I say this... I do NOT work for Aventurine for the record.
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The views expressed in this post are solely those of my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of pyromaniacs.
If that were actually the case, no one would ever do anything because no one would ever be first. Face it - what generally happens is you don't even credibly consider the possibility that the movie or restaurant is a scam. You certainly may not partake if you think you won't like it, but people don't insist on "being a smart consumer" for incidental purchases. If they're charging money, have a credible facade, and you think you'll like the product, you pay and don't think twice about it because the probability of being wrong is low and the consequence of being wrong is pretty much negligible.
And again, that is why they let the press see these movies ahead of time at private screenings. Its the reason resturants are willing to refund you if you felt the meal was subpar. Twist and alter perception of a statement all you want, it still comes down to the fact that your examples (Movies, Resturants) allow people to try thier food/see thier movie before letting it out to the general public. People will read the reviews about a resturant or a movie before giving it a shot. Some may not.
The point, that part of this whole debate that you keep trying to dodge, is you cant tell someone that they shouldnt tell others to not buy something before they try it because it somehow annoys you.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
Objectivity doesn't mean not caring about the subject. It involves looking at it from a logical and impartial manner. From your ridiculous analogy to your pledge of money for incomplete products, your preference is obviously to err on the side of the wide-eyed fanboy. Paying retail prices for a maybe complete, maybe stable, maybe full of promised features beta is extreme. Checking a reference list for a restaurant is extreme. Waiting until an independent and credible third party confirms that the restaurant/movie/videogame exists is not. Of course, all three of these are usually confirmed by innumerable independent sources loooong before you even have the chance to open your wallet- so it normally isn't an issue.
Just because you're willing to open your mouth and wait for skittles to rain, doesn't mean we're being silly for waiting to see.
Considering what crap i've seen in pics/videos until now, i dont spent even 1 cent to try it.
There are better free games right now, why should i pay to test that game?
This Sarg01 cat really is the target consumer for shady companies... Man it's people like this that make it so easy to scam... It's like fish in a barrel.
Well Sarg01, you take your parents credit card and you go ahead and preorder Darkfall. Come back and tell us how that works out for you. LOL
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
"I'm an '09er without the vested interest of most Darkfall fans ..."
Your words, correct?
So if you're not objective, and have no vested interest in Darkfall, what are you?
Oh, yeah, I forgot. You're the one who claims I am one of the reasons Dark and Light failed, because I and a few others killed its population and apparently lied about the state of the game and its shitsack developers.
Your credibility is sinking lower than the Titanic during a thaw.
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
Objectivity doesn't mean not caring about the subject. It involves looking at it from a logical and impartial manner. From your ridiculous analogy to your pledge of money for incomplete products, your preference is obviously to err on the side of the wide-eyed fanboy. Paying retail prices for a maybe complete, maybe stable, maybe full of promised features beta is extreme. Checking a reference list for a restaurant is extreme. Waiting until an independent and credible third party confirms that the restaurant/movie/videogame exists is not. Of course, all three of these are usually confirmed by innumerable independent sources loooong before you even have the chance to open your wallet- so it normally isn't an issue.
Just because you're willing to open your mouth and wait for skittles to rain, doesn't mean we're being silly for waiting to see.
Yeah its amazing isnt it?
The whole gaming community has been fighting for years to end the free flow of shovelware games and pay to play betas, yet hes willing to sit there and accept it like a roofied up prom date...
And we are the silly ones in all this...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
"I'm an '09er without the vested interest of most Darkfall fans ..."
Your words, correct?
So if you're not objective, and have no vested interest in Darkfall, what are you?
Oh, yeah, I forgot. You're the one who claims I am one of the reasons Dark and Light failed, because I and a few others killed its population and apparently lied about the state of the game and its shitsack developers.
Your credibility is sinking lower than the Titanic during a thaw.
You were the reason DnL failed?
Huh... all this time I thought it was the bad reviews and the company being sued by investors and the such...
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
has pre-order/order/game spec information been released finally? or, are they still under a DOS (denial of service) attack?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I agree. I have no intention of pre ordering until I've had a play of the game. Let the suckers who dance to the hype happily give their money over blindly. With this NDA stuff going on so close to release next month it stinks of controlling the information until the pre orders have turned to orders and money is in their bank, they wouldn't keep their investor for long if negative feedback hits the public domain of the internet.
When did I claim to be objective? Objective people don't come to mmorpg.com to post on the forums of games they don't care about.
"I'm an '09er without the vested interest of most Darkfall fans ..."
Your words, correct?
So if you're not objective, and have no vested interest in Darkfall, what are you?
Oh, yeah, I forgot. You're the one who claims I am one of the reasons Dark and Light failed, because I and a few others killed its population and apparently lied about the state of the game and its shitsack developers.
Your credibility is sinking lower than the Titanic during a thaw.
Hmm, you're right, that came across with a connotation I didn't intend. What I meant is that I didn't have the kind of time sunk into the game that a lot of the Darkfall community has and that there are major elements of the game that I don't expect to find entirely to my taste, but I nevertheless strongly believe that the "Darkfall doesn't exist" crowd needs to just stop. If you don't want to pre-order it, don't pre-order it. It's not that hard. Of course, I recognize I have no power to make them stop, and acknowledge they probably won't.
I for one will not be putting money in the pockets of Adventurine unless they follow through on there "try before you buy" statement.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I hope they make a great game, but nobody should give them money until they do.
i think what the OP is talking about is dont order the game until you know for sure it exists. he stated nothing about whether people liked it or not.
Exactly!
After all that has happened. The only SMART consumer is the one that is going to wait and see this game actually release first and that it actually works and that most of the important features are actually in the game and working!
Most of us are around for many years. We have had our fair share of dumping money in a black hole! (Matrix Online, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Auto Assault, Asheron's Call 2, etc, etc).
But Sarg01 and all the other blind fans... please be my guest. Go pre-order! Throw money at them! It's your money.
Cheers
Don't preorder unless you has actually played it.
(fixed)
There is a massive difference between features X, Y and Z existing but people not liking them and features X, Y and Z not existing at all.
If I go to a restaurant, I'm going to damn well make sure that they at the very least serve the food.
Does Darkfall exist? Yea, most likely.
Is it feature complete? lol.
Best advice I have seen on these boards.
The waitress hands you a menu as you take a seat. "We make it exactly the way you want it here." You smile at your dinner date at this uncommon prospect; Having it just the way you want it. "Well then." You begin. "I'll have the salmon, and the lobster for the lady." The waitress writes down your order and says "That will be right out. But first you'll need to pay for the meal." Odd, you think. But what the hell, you pay all the time before you get your bag of McDonalds food. "You hand her the credit card and she heads to the till.
A short time later the waitress emerges from the kitchen. As she sets the plate down you realize you've just been served chicken nuggets with a side or moldy spinach. "What the.." you start to inquire. But the waitress is gone. Looking around, you see that everyone is suddenly gone. "I don't understand. What kind of a place is this?!" You take your credit card from the guest ticket and glance at the charges. "Triple billed... recuring monthly?!" Its then that you see the restaurants logo. Scrolled across the figure of a goblin scout you see it written all too clearly now; "Aventerine Eatery"
I would not go to their restaurant, do they even know how to cook?
/threaded FAST
Check this out:
Its a fake video, set in a fake building, with a fake person testing on a fake computer, playing a fake game, created by a fake company with fake developers. We certainly know that all of that is fake until proven otherwise in the DNA testing laboratories and a team of forensic investigators complete their 300 page report.
Now, with that hard evidence at hand, I'm certain that the preorder will be a scam cause the game is vaporware.
Feels good to fit in with this community. We all think alike.