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"Endgame" is a failure in the body of a MMO.
Mrbloodworth
Member Posts: 5,615
Discuss..
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Comments
explain to my how you avoid an endgame.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Endgame should be something that is off in the distance and middlegame should never be sacrificed to make a good endgame.
MMOs are about the journey, not the destination.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
in your opinion.
I'm sure there are a good amount of people that don't care about the journey. My brother is one.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
Strangely enough, I agree with Mr.Bloodsworth.
An MMO shouldn't have an 'Endgame', it should just have the game. Why does what you do when you're building your character have to change, or be different than what you do when your character is complete?
I think this problem of "endgame" stems from unbalanced and unproportional level systems. Levels are given to much decisivness on the power of your character. Take WoW for example. A level 20 doesn't compare to a level 30, which doesn't come close to a level 40, and on and on. When your character gains enourmous power as it progresses, what you are doing must constantly change. Therefore, when you finally reach max level, you have reached the final hurdle and are now able to do 10x more than you could at the level before. No one is going to bring a level 79 into a raid in WoW, and there are no raids for anything less than 80(well there are old raids, but no one does them because they are pointless). So when you reach 80, suddenly there is a plethora of new stuff to do, thus an endgame.
For me, endgame also gives the feeling that anything before max level is pointless and just a timesink.
If games were to implement a more discrete power system, where a maxed out character is more powerful than a newer character, but not invinsible, than you would see the line between an "endgame" and the "rest of the game" blur. In this way, newer characters can be playing with and doing the same things as older characters, and it won't matter as much. This would also give the developers a lot more time to work on content that EVERYONE could do, not just people at max level.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.
You see, what an endgame really is a time sink; it’s a way to buy time while more content is created by the developers.
Endgame is a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales. To many people associate “Endgame” with challenge, when in most DIKU mmos, "Challenge" typically; simply means time invested not true challenge of encounter.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
The journey would be great if it had a point. If it had a great story, a purpose, then I would love the journey. The first time through the content of Guild Wars I really enjoyed it because it had good story, meaningful missions, and it was fun. The "journey" in WoW on the other hand was nothing but a complete waste of time filled with dull and boring tasks designed to be a timesink. In that case, I could care less for the journey as the journey isn't challenging, isn't fun, and has no point other than to waste your time.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.
Maybe if quests were more than just "Go kill x of y" or fedex quests...and the quests actually make you feel like you've accomplished something. I'm starting to have the same problem. If the quests aren't interesting and if they don't immerse you in the story...they aren't fun. Night Mode Tortage in AoC is what I want...only in group form. I really felt like I was working towards something bigger than myself. The quests after Tortage are okay, but I find myself skipping through the text because it just isn't as interesting as Tortage and it doesn't give me the same feeling. I think a game that can make quests fun and worth it again will get both me and him back into the journey. Right now...the journey just isn't that interesting. If you've killed a boar once, you've killed it a million times.
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Guys! I'm hopelessly lost in a mountain of mole hills! Them damn moles!
People that think endgame is the most important thing fail
. Enjoy the journey.
Oh noes it's the new kind of gamers ,mind fu*ked gamers
The 'end' just follws the natural progression of all things.
No, it's the new kind of games, where the journey is boring and pointless.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
It's because gamers want only the endagame. They stopped enjoying the journey long time ago
.
Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.
Maybe if quests were more than just "Go kill x of y" or fedex quests...and the quests actually make you feel like you've accomplished something. I'm starting to have the same problem. If the quests aren't interesting and if they don't immerse you in the story...they aren't fun. Night Mode Tortage in AoC is what I want...only in group form. I really felt like I was working towards something bigger than myself. The quests after Tortage are okay, but I find myself skipping through the text because it just isn't as interesting as Tortage and it doesn't give me the same feeling. I think a game that can make quests fun and worth it again will get both me and him back into the journey. Right now...the journey just isn't that interesting. If you've killed a boar once, you've killed it a million times.
Good example, this is definitely part of the cause.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This was not always true. Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. They have been conditioned.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
That's because the journey has become nothing more than a boring time sink. Give me an enjoyable journey and I will enjoy it. If their just going to give me 1000 tasks to run before I get handed max level, I'll pass.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
one word.
Darkfall?
Conditioning is no excuse for lack of creativity, or stagnation of genre. Does you brother also skip tot he end of a book? If so, I would say that book also suffers from the same issues.
Not to generalize but.
The same people who rush to the end is by a large probability the same people who would never pick up a book.
Books usually requires patience and imagination.
Not saying the "rushers" lack those abilities but, yeah, I kinda am.
Probably yet another reason why WoW is so wildly popular.
And the thing is, WoW do not lack story or lore, there is an abundance if you read and not just click accept.
Most people do not, and there is no need to.
I did not in WoW, and I am a lore junkie, I really like the stories behind things but in that game it felt kind of pointless.
EQ2 was an entirely different story, not that you need to read there either but the simple fact that you could collect books and put them in your own library and read when you wanted, well that was/is awesome.
There need to be more to a game then mindless killing for the player to actually feel alive in the world and care about what has happened, what is happening and above all what is going to happen.
Besides the new loot introduced.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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I play EVE.
Near as I can tell, there is no endgame in the traditional sense, the closest to it being I suppose able to own and fly a Titan.
Or control the entire known universe.....which some folks are still trying to do.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good last two posts.
I hope this wont devolve into a "my game your game" topic. I feel this topic transcends that, as I wasn’t talking about any one game. Examples are fine...however, you do not have to give examples in a specific game.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Darkfall will have an endgame. There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing.
A common misconception is that if you slap in a skill system that there won't be an endgame. This is false, at one point in the game you will reach a part where you will be playing through the same content over and over again, primarily difference is that you still can level skills.
Endgame is not a "failure". The simple fact of the matter is that players play through content a lot faster than developers can make it. There HAS to be something to keep players busy untill the next batch of content is ready.
I know that you don't want this to be a "my game" vs "your game" but I have to agree with what was said previously in regards to AoC.
If I could have a game that gave me an endless (well, nearly, endless is still an impossibility, I think) story where my friends and I are working together and changing the world as it currently is (a la Tortage) I would pay through the nose and probably lose my job.
You will almost always have an "endgame", but if you make the low and middle game feel the same as endgame, well, it's not so bad.
Another example would be WAR. I remember at level 3 or 4 with a witch elf fighting a dragon in a PQ, that's what we need as well. No need to start with boars, rabbits or gnats; welcome to game!...go kill that dragon.
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Actually it would be nice if they just got rid of regular animals in MMORPGs period. I'm 36th level in LOTRO, and it seems like I'm still killing boars and bears and cows (Aurochs).
Anyway, I think part of the problem is that some people will spend their whole lives in the game. Or much of it. So you have to try to come up with something to entertain them (which will reach the endgame in months, if not years) with the more normal people.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Only if the failure of the body is not addressed is this true.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
I'm not talking about Narrative, Narrative honnestly doesn't take that long to make. Coding quests, creating new monsters, areas, dungeons simply takes much longer than playing through it.
You can't compare a traditional mmorpg to something such as Planetside.