Endgame= Game Over.. Generally speaking i hit max level in whatever the game is and cancel my account because of sheer boredom and unwillingness to roll up alts. I'm going to use WOW as an example.
1.) Boring level/grind system where you need nobody to be successful
2.) Static quests. Once you do them with one character they are the same with all others.
3.) Player crafting system is fluff. A good crafting system would be the choice of choices when it came to items in the game even over the best loot items. Loot shouldn't drop off boss mobs .. Craft items should.
WOW is a static roadmap game. Its how it was designed. Start here , finish there with nothing else in between to keep you entertained. Grind and endgame days are over as we veteran players demand far more then a simple endgame so to speak.
Endgame should be something that is off in the distance and middlegame should never be sacrificed to make a good endgame. MMOs are about the journey, not the destination.
This is what i wish to have again in a MMORPG.
Unfortunately to me i'm not very optimistic about having it anymore. May be Darkfall if at end launch and delivers good. Said may be because i'm full of doubts about how the gameplay will be in Darkfall.
I hate the repetitive end-game raiding thing that is in the most MMOs available. May be i could keep with a short trip to endgame if this endgame is something more interesting like some kind of open PvP with group goals and so. This is my hope for Aion but like in Darkfall i have my doubts.
May be Lineage 3 or the "Bluehole project" can deliver interesting games with no end game. But both are still far away and really its just my imagination or my wishes.
By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.
You see, what an endgame really is a time sink; it’s a way to buy time while more content is created by the developers.
Endgame is a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales. To many people associate “Endgame” with challenge, when in most DIKU mmos, "Challenge" typically; simply means time invested not true challenge of encounter.
This.
The most obvious solution would be to:
1) Focus the game on some thing other than poinless progression. Economy, control of territory, control of limited resources...
2) Tone down the "power curve". If a 1 level difference is too significant (which it is in every level based MMO), then it will pretty much be mandatory that every one reach max level before they can even think about jumping in on the action.
Originally posted by Tatum The most obvious solution would be to: 1) Focus the game on some thing other than poinless progression. Economy, control of territory, control of limited resources... 2) Tone down the "power curve". If a 1 level difference is too significant (which it is in every level based MMO), then it will pretty much be mandatory that every one reach max level before they can even think about jumping in on the action.
My point exactly...
"Endgame" usually is reffering to the "fun" part castle seiges, war, economy.... So why not make the "fun" part start on day one.
Theres more too MMO's than leveling, its a virtual world why not let it evolve, allow players to build it and destroy it.
Im inclined to agree that endgame is a false ideal in an MMO. The whole point in these games is too develope your character, socialize and go on adventures with others. Lately these games have become a ratrace to see who can get to the finish line with the best Sh*t the quickest. I'd like to see a game where the sky is the limit, endgame is whenever you decide to retire your character and theres always mountains to climb , things to discover, and new epic mobs to slay no matter what your level is.
The only reason we have a concept of 'end-game' is because some smart people at Blizzard figured out that people play MMOs to play with other people, and the only things levels are really good for is seperating people. So they put all the fun stuff at the the level cap, sped up the leveling process to the point where if it went any faster it'd start breaking stuff, and now we have a whole crop of people who know nothing but 'end-game'
End-game is an after-the-fact fix to a broken concept.
By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.
Hmm, persistant, dynamic, and never ending sounds like the exact definition of the end game. Indeed, I feel that the mmo starts when the leveling is done.
It's because gamers want only the endagame. They stopped enjoying the journey long time ago.
Or perhaps developers stopped making a journey a long time ago? All I see are kill 10 boars and bring me their guts, or go pick 10 roses, or go find me some zombie pee. That's no journey. That's a waste of time to get to the real game.
End game is the natural progression of the linear single/cooperative games. Go back to the times of Diablo or Diablo 2, may be other games before these. What was the objective there? First kill Diablo or Baal (The end-game bosses at that time) after that grind endlessly to get the best items. May be it was a different style to play more addressed to try exotic builds and so but the majority play the first path.
Battle.net provided instanced PvP and also the possibility to have cooperation, but not group goals other than help each other at some moments to reach the individual aims.
Blizzard (other big and small companies have followed the example) used this model proved very successful as the bones to build their first MMO. They used the lore of Warcraft but the core of the game is Diablo. It’s a linear "RPG action" individual PvE item/level based game with instanced (limited in numbers) PvP and with some cooperative game possibilities. I know some of you are going to say that they copied from EQ and so. Sure they did it in a lot of aspects. But it doesn't change the model.
The difference is that MMORPGs needs to keep people paying month after month. Then we need more than a couple/trio of bosses and better and better items to keep people entertained, having something to aim. End-game is served. It can't be avoided in this model. As in Diablo people rush through the game just to be able to do Baal runs to get the Windforce. It’s the same. Has nothing to do with an open world. Doesn't matter how imaginative developers could be about the mid game, people will try to skip it. It’s like running to the concert hall, doesn't matter how beautiful and interesting the town is.
I played for some time, WoW, Lotro, AoC and always I was feeling like playing bigger and technically improved Diablos. The path could be better or worse (It was nice in Lotro) but you are forced to go to the endgame. I got tired very soon.
I'm not saying at all it is wrong, its not for me but I think no one can deny that if the goal of a game is to give fun to the players, apparently the model is good for millions of them.
At the other side I know there is another model that don't need end game, because the game is about other things than defeat bosses, get awesome items and a good rank in the limited PvP. Allow me to not use the “Sandbox” call, let me call them open PvP worlds (think it’s a wider category)
The difference is very simple in this games the aim, the leitmotiv; the fun is the competition against other people in any way you can envisage.
I’m not thinking about the “skill” (hand-eye coordination). Mechanics are nothing to do with the core of the model at least in the sense of this thread. Anyway I have to recognise that specific mechanics will make happier some people than others.
I think more about other words like power, domination, strategies, coordination, team work in all the extend. Collective game play over all.
The game play in these games is made by players. Politics, long-term strategies, big organizations, numbers, territory control, resources control, economy control, I think I don’t need to continue.
They can have awesome PvE instanced or open as far as it is not changing the PvP orientation of the game. They can have epic personal quests or any other feature you can imagine. But this kind of games is not going to have end-game. If they are linear in terms of character progression may be you will get in troubles to catch the real game if you start too late (It happened in Lineage II) If the mechanics, features and the general balance between the different aspects is well done, the game will be evolving over the actions of the players. Developers could add more content, new features, but they don’t need to think and work in the “end-game”.
I think there is a 3rd category, a mixed one. I can only think in DAOC (never played it) as currently live game. May be Warhammer?. Aion probably will fit in this category. I’m not sure if these models of factioned PvP with safe zones but still with significant PvP objectives for the big teams work could need an end game. Don’t think so but may be I’m wrong. I am waiting to play Aion to try this model.
Sorry to write as long. My first post was more about my wishes than the real subject of the OP. These are my thoughts behind the wishes.
Originally posted by zaxxon23 Originally posted by alessiora It's because gamers want only the endagame. They stopped enjoying the journey long time ago.
Or perhaps developers stopped making a journey a long time ago? All I see are kill 10 boars and bring me their guts, or go pick 10 roses, or go find me some zombie pee. That's no journey. That's a waste of time to get to the real game. Is there a higher word to use other then agree?
Its like MMOs went from Dante's journey through the levels of hell to.. well... working at an office, all you do is work and work until at the end of it all you get a paycheck.
Endgame is not a "failure". The simple fact of the matter is that players play through content a lot faster than developers can make it. There HAS to be something to keep players busy untill the next batch of content is ready.
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
That just means the game is endgame from day one. Sooner or later, you're going to acquire all the "options" available, and then you're just spinning your wheels.
____________________________________________ im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I agree that endgame is a pointless goal to work for in todays mmo's. But its really all there is in alot of the new ones. I play wow and lotro currently both of which are grind to get to endgame more or less. I have played wow so long I have a quest helper add on and all I do is accept the quest open my map, see the objective, complete it etc.....
Its sad but that is the current state of these lvl based MMO's. With wow I had multiple lvl 70 chars at the end of TBC, i dont care what new forms of quests you bring out, its all the same when you get down to it. Lotro makes it a little better but its stil the same process to get to endgame. My perfect game, was my first AC, there was no endgame per se. I never felt the need that I had to lvl, all the best items in the game dropped from random monsters, most of the time lvling was about raising your skills or trying to get better gear, just just about mindlessly leveling. I think AC did a great job in letting the power players grind till there hearts were content and the casuals just take it nice and slow enjoying and exploring the game.
I still play the current generation but I long for another AC to come along. As of right now I almost cant stomach to lvl anymore. I barely just made it to 80 in wrath because no matter what they do its still the same old quest lvling. And im having an even harder time in lotro hitting 60 because questing and lvling in both games is so similar, same with any other lvl based game.
I dont think ill be moving on to any other lvl based games for a while im just getting burnt out with the current drive to endgame.
I quite agree with preceding speaker. But cutting out lvls being a basic gameplay mechanic in themepark games, isn't the only thing to do. Endgame ... as a long time crpg player I've been wondering what is that term. Until I realized it's a complete mistake of massive multiplayer role playing games. Wasting time while paying subscription fees, non stop grinding to ... start playing the game ? Paranoia. Wtf is wrong with those games ? I'd like to install a mmorpg (I call them quasi-mmorpg), create an avatar and start to have fun playing. Not commanding and training my avatar to be able to participate in certain parts of the game, prepared by devs, after half or more year of playing. And I'm not talking about powerleveling, cause it's the same failure.
Going back to lvls, themepark mechanics actually base on lvls and changing it (by cutting) would have huge influence onto all other aspects of the game. It would even be pushing the game to become a sandbox type.
-- /thread
Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=)
I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear. They all have ends. A start and finish. I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=)
Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious.
If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.
Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious.
Those reason have nothing to do with EQ or UO not having a lot of people. It comes down to one word Marketing. UO and EQ main marketting was in Game magazine. WoW everywhere. Wow managed to get public acceptance as something that was alright to play and got that information out everywhere. That is what got them the numbers. Ask most people back when UO or EQ was out what it was and they'd give you a blank stare, WoW they'll be able to at least recognize it
Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious.
I'm not going to defend the old school, repetitive mob grind. However, I'm also not going to pretend like the new, repetitive quest train is any better. It's equally as mindless and pointless. When it comes down to it, you're still just going through the motions so you can watch your xp bar chug along.
Of course, this circles back to the original point that these games are too focused on a half-assed "progression" system. The only thing that has changed is now it's easier and less time consuming. So, I guess you only need to play each MMO for two months now, before you max your character, shelve the game, and move onto the next MMO...
So, I guess you only need to play each MMO for two months now, before you max your character, shelve the game, and move onto the next MMO...
2 months, sheesh thats way too long for almost all the new MMOs! I've personally and not rushing by any means gottan a char to the max lvl in almost every fantasy MMO to date in under 2 weeks! Even went back and played EQ and EQII again and they've made them so easy its a joke now!
Why is everything turning easy-mode, no penalty or challenge, and focused on getting to end-game as fast as possible and most have nothing to do but raid for gear that becomes obsolete and thats just !
imho End-Game is a way to occupy the players that have went through mid-game content and gotten to max level, its there too keep them from leaving they want the uber gear as some may call it, and as they take a that time to get the latest gear the devs of that certain mmo are working on a new expansion to either add content "length wise" (adding some more levels and some content to go with them levels example: WoW, LotRO.) or "width wise" (adding more content for the current levels say more "end-game" raids, more features, maybe some more "end-game" pvp, etc,etc. Example:EQ2 TSO, and EVE Online) "End-Game" isn't necessarily a bad thing or a good think it depends on your personal preference. and thats my opinion on End Game in MMOs
I think NeoCron has a pretty good endgame... even when u kap u dont stop advancement. I dont think i've ever "end gamed" another game. most have some what decent story lines but higher levels tend to be borning to say the least and never got to the end.. or as someone said, the prize at the end just wasnt interesting enough and to much focus on building the middle of the game and not the end...
that might be people norm to work from Start to Finish in place of making sure the end is good or great then filling in the rest. I truely believe coders get tired and the laziest shows up torwards the end which is most of the time the most buggest (if u've ever noticed).
Endgame is not a "failure". The simple fact of the matter is that players play through content a lot faster than developers can make it. There HAS to be something to keep players busy untill the next batch of content is ready.
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
That just means the game is endgame from day one. Sooner or later, you're going to acquire all the "options" available, and then you're just spinning your wheels.
Not at all, have you played Planetside? Acquiring all the options is not possible, but you can swap out the options when you want to change your playstyle. That's part of it, it allows you to make your playstyle, not just fill some "Class" labeled "hero".
To the people above me, we dont need more explanations on what "Endgame is" is, thread is not about that, or, whats a good endgame.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I fi want a journey i play single player games. Enjoyed Fallout 3 (for its freedom) and Mass Effect (for its story) lately.
MMO's to me are about playing with friends. I like exploring, fighting and generally creating my own stories up by playing through content with friends. I dislike grinds and the fact that levels can segregate friends (people who play a lot getting to far ahead of others and not be able to group and do certain content).
MMO's seem to be focusing too much on solo play now for me. Its a tricky balance to get between solo and group content but i play mmo's for the group interaction whether its fighting my way through a dungeon with friends or crafting a set of armor for a paying customer its the social interaction that interests me.
I dont think endgame is a failure its just most endgames are repetitive boring grinds for gear. Raiding is fun when you are working out how to beat the boss and working as a team to do it. Grinding that boss over and over just to gear up so you can progress to the next boss is boring.
I think EVE has the right idea its just too bad i never got into the game. Giving players/guilds reasons and resources to fight over and the tools to fight with leads to player created content which is more dynamic.
Nice post, i think you hit on a lot of good points.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Well .. endgame is inevitable because the amount of content that can be produced is limited (very expensive to produce).
You can mask that a bit by using algorithms or having players to help (like pvp) but ultimately you cannot squeeze blood out of stone.
For example, the number of distinct models in a game is finite. You just can have 100x more because they are expensive. That is why developers retexture, recolor, and sometimes just reword the same model into different objects.
Personally i think this is fine. Just "finish" a game and move on. There are plenty of games where they come from.
Oh, and forget about players generated content. 99.9% are crap.
Comments
Endgame= Game Over.. Generally speaking i hit max level in whatever the game is and cancel my account because of sheer boredom and unwillingness to roll up alts. I'm going to use WOW as an example.
1.) Boring level/grind system where you need nobody to be successful
2.) Static quests. Once you do them with one character they are the same with all others.
3.) Player crafting system is fluff. A good crafting system would be the choice of choices when it came to items in the game even over the best loot items. Loot shouldn't drop off boss mobs .. Craft items should.
WOW is a static roadmap game. Its how it was designed. Start here , finish there with nothing else in between to keep you entertained. Grind and endgame days are over as we veteran players demand far more then a simple endgame so to speak.
This is what i wish to have again in a MMORPG.
Unfortunately to me i'm not very optimistic about having it anymore. May be Darkfall if at end launch and delivers good. Said may be because i'm full of doubts about how the gameplay will be in Darkfall.
I hate the repetitive end-game raiding thing that is in the most MMOs available. May be i could keep with a short trip to endgame if this endgame is something more interesting like some kind of open PvP with group goals and so. This is my hope for Aion but like in Darkfall i have my doubts.
May be Lineage 3 or the "Bluehole project" can deliver interesting games with no end game. But both are still far away and really its just my imagination or my wishes.
By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.
You see, what an endgame really is a time sink; it’s a way to buy time while more content is created by the developers.
Endgame is a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales. To many people associate “Endgame” with challenge, when in most DIKU mmos, "Challenge" typically; simply means time invested not true challenge of encounter.
This.
The most obvious solution would be to:
1) Focus the game on some thing other than poinless progression. Economy, control of territory, control of limited resources...
2) Tone down the "power curve". If a 1 level difference is too significant (which it is in every level based MMO), then it will pretty much be mandatory that every one reach max level before they can even think about jumping in on the action.
My point exactly...
"Endgame" usually is reffering to the "fun" part castle seiges, war, economy.... So why not make the "fun" part start on day one.
Theres more too MMO's than leveling, its a virtual world why not let it evolve, allow players to build it and destroy it.
Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7
Im inclined to agree that endgame is a false ideal in an MMO. The whole point in these games is too develope your character, socialize and go on adventures with others. Lately these games have become a ratrace to see who can get to the finish line with the best Sh*t the quickest. I'd like to see a game where the sky is the limit, endgame is whenever you decide to retire your character and theres always mountains to climb , things to discover, and new epic mobs to slay no matter what your level is.
The only reason we have a concept of 'end-game' is because some smart people at Blizzard figured out that people play MMOs to play with other people, and the only things levels are really good for is seperating people. So they put all the fun stuff at the the level cap, sped up the leveling process to the point where if it went any faster it'd start breaking stuff, and now we have a whole crop of people who know nothing but 'end-game'
End-game is an after-the-fact fix to a broken concept.
By sticking to the original premise of a MMO? Persistant, dynamic, and never ending.
Hmm, persistant, dynamic, and never ending sounds like the exact definition of the end game. Indeed, I feel that the mmo starts when the leveling is done.
Or perhaps developers stopped making a journey a long time ago? All I see are kill 10 boars and bring me their guts, or go pick 10 roses, or go find me some zombie pee. That's no journey. That's a waste of time to get to the real game.
End game is the natural progression of the linear single/cooperative games. Go back to the times of Diablo or Diablo 2, may be other games before these. What was the objective there? First kill Diablo or Baal (The end-game bosses at that time) after that grind endlessly to get the best items. May be it was a different style to play more addressed to try exotic builds and so but the majority play the first path.
Battle.net provided instanced PvP and also the possibility to have cooperation, but not group goals other than help each other at some moments to reach the individual aims.
Blizzard (other big and small companies have followed the example) used this model proved very successful as the bones to build their first MMO. They used the lore of Warcraft but the core of the game is Diablo. It’s a linear "RPG action" individual PvE item/level based game with instanced (limited in numbers) PvP and with some cooperative game possibilities. I know some of you are going to say that they copied from EQ and so. Sure they did it in a lot of aspects. But it doesn't change the model.
The difference is that MMORPGs needs to keep people paying month after month. Then we need more than a couple/trio of bosses and better and better items to keep people entertained, having something to aim. End-game is served. It can't be avoided in this model. As in Diablo people rush through the game just to be able to do Baal runs to get the Windforce. It’s the same. Has nothing to do with an open world. Doesn't matter how imaginative developers could be about the mid game, people will try to skip it. It’s like running to the concert hall, doesn't matter how beautiful and interesting the town is.
I played for some time, WoW, Lotro, AoC and always I was feeling like playing bigger and technically improved Diablos. The path could be better or worse (It was nice in Lotro) but you are forced to go to the endgame. I got tired very soon.
I'm not saying at all it is wrong, its not for me but I think no one can deny that if the goal of a game is to give fun to the players, apparently the model is good for millions of them.
At the other side I know there is another model that don't need end game, because the game is about other things than defeat bosses, get awesome items and a good rank in the limited PvP. Allow me to not use the “Sandbox” call, let me call them open PvP worlds (think it’s a wider category)
The difference is very simple in this games the aim, the leitmotiv; the fun is the competition against other people in any way you can envisage.
I’m not thinking about the “skill” (hand-eye coordination). Mechanics are nothing to do with the core of the model at least in the sense of this thread. Anyway I have to recognise that specific mechanics will make happier some people than others.
I think more about other words like power, domination, strategies, coordination, team work in all the extend. Collective game play over all.
The game play in these games is made by players. Politics, long-term strategies, big organizations, numbers, territory control, resources control, economy control, I think I don’t need to continue.
They can have awesome PvE instanced or open as far as it is not changing the PvP orientation of the game. They can have epic personal quests or any other feature you can imagine. But this kind of games is not going to have end-game. If they are linear in terms of character progression may be you will get in troubles to catch the real game if you start too late (It happened in Lineage II) If the mechanics, features and the general balance between the different aspects is well done, the game will be evolving over the actions of the players. Developers could add more content, new features, but they don’t need to think and work in the “end-game”.
I think there is a 3rd category, a mixed one. I can only think in DAOC (never played it) as currently live game. May be Warhammer?. Aion probably will fit in this category. I’m not sure if these models of factioned PvP with safe zones but still with significant PvP objectives for the big teams work could need an end game. Don’t think so but may be I’m wrong. I am waiting to play Aion to try this model.
Sorry to write as long. My first post was more about my wishes than the real subject of the OP. These are my thoughts behind the wishes.
Or perhaps developers stopped making a journey a long time ago? All I see are kill 10 boars and bring me their guts, or go pick 10 roses, or go find me some zombie pee. That's no journey. That's a waste of time to get to the real game.
Is there a higher word to use other then agree?
Its like MMOs went from Dante's journey through the levels of hell to.. well... working at an office, all you do is work and work until at the end of it all you get a paycheck.
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
That just means the game is endgame from day one. Sooner or later, you're going to acquire all the "options" available, and then you're just spinning your wheels.
____________________________________________
im to lazy too use grammar or punctuation good
I agree that endgame is a pointless goal to work for in todays mmo's. But its really all there is in alot of the new ones. I play wow and lotro currently both of which are grind to get to endgame more or less. I have played wow so long I have a quest helper add on and all I do is accept the quest open my map, see the objective, complete it etc.....
Its sad but that is the current state of these lvl based MMO's. With wow I had multiple lvl 70 chars at the end of TBC, i dont care what new forms of quests you bring out, its all the same when you get down to it. Lotro makes it a little better but its stil the same process to get to endgame. My perfect game, was my first AC, there was no endgame per se. I never felt the need that I had to lvl, all the best items in the game dropped from random monsters, most of the time lvling was about raising your skills or trying to get better gear, just just about mindlessly leveling. I think AC did a great job in letting the power players grind till there hearts were content and the casuals just take it nice and slow enjoying and exploring the game.
I still play the current generation but I long for another AC to come along. As of right now I almost cant stomach to lvl anymore. I barely just made it to 80 in wrath because no matter what they do its still the same old quest lvling. And im having an even harder time in lotro hitting 60 because questing and lvling in both games is so similar, same with any other lvl based game.
I dont think ill be moving on to any other lvl based games for a while im just getting burnt out with the current drive to endgame.
Of course a good game has both, but I'm less motivated to progress a character if I know the endgame is going to be trash.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
The problem is in levels and level cap. Just remove levels (read: Darkfall, Mortal) and the problem is fixed
I quite agree with preceding speaker.
But cutting out lvls being a basic gameplay mechanic in themepark games, isn't the only thing to do.
Endgame ... as a long time crpg player I've been wondering what is that term. Until I realized it's a complete mistake of massive multiplayer role playing games. Wasting time while paying subscription fees, non stop grinding to ... start playing the game ? Paranoia.
Wtf is wrong with those games ? I'd like to install a mmorpg (I call them quasi-mmorpg), create an avatar and start to have fun playing. Not commanding and training my avatar to be able to participate in certain parts of the game, prepared by devs, after half or more year of playing. And I'm not talking about powerleveling, cause it's the same failure.
Going back to lvls, themepark mechanics actually base on lvls and changing it (by cutting) would have huge influence onto all other aspects of the game. It would even be pushing the game to become a sandbox type.
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Remember, your advantage lies in your opponent's weakness (J)
Last time I checked, WOW is the last thing from failure as you can get=)
I assume most people in this thread, NEVER read books, watch TV, play single player RPGs, action games or any game at all, because they'll all linear. They all have ends. A start and finish. I wish I was so enlightened as to HATE gaming like most people in this thread=)
Also a little point of note, WOW was the 1st MMO to actually make the journey fun. THATs why millions play it. If UO or EQ had a cool journey, more people would've played. They didn't because the journey was a tedious boring pointless grind. WOW isn't pointless because you have stories to follow. EQ didn't really have quests. Neither did UO. You just played, killed 5000 bores to raise you axe skill or 20k goons in EQ to gain another level. No point. No direction. No purpose. BORING!! Tedious.
If you can't see why people find WOW more enjoyable than you really shouldn't be invovled in these sort of discussions.
Those reason have nothing to do with EQ or UO not having a lot of people. It comes down to one word Marketing. UO and EQ main marketting was in Game magazine. WoW everywhere. Wow managed to get public acceptance as something that was alright to play and got that information out everywhere. That is what got them the numbers. Ask most people back when UO or EQ was out what it was and they'd give you a blank stare, WoW they'll be able to at least recognize it
I'm not going to defend the old school, repetitive mob grind. However, I'm also not going to pretend like the new, repetitive quest train is any better. It's equally as mindless and pointless. When it comes down to it, you're still just going through the motions so you can watch your xp bar chug along.
Of course, this circles back to the original point that these games are too focused on a half-assed "progression" system. The only thing that has changed is now it's easier and less time consuming. So, I guess you only need to play each MMO for two months now, before you max your character, shelve the game, and move onto the next MMO...
2 months, sheesh thats way too long for almost all the new MMOs! I've personally and not rushing by any means gottan a char to the max lvl in almost every fantasy MMO to date in under 2 weeks! Even went back and played EQ and EQII again and they've made them so easy its a joke now!
Why is everything turning easy-mode, no penalty or challenge, and focused on getting to end-game as fast as possible and most have nothing to do but raid for gear that becomes obsolete and thats just
!
imho End-Game is a way to occupy the players that have went through mid-game content and gotten to max level, its there too keep them from leaving they want the uber gear as some may call it, and as they take a that time to get the latest gear the devs of that certain mmo are working on a new expansion to either add content "length wise" (adding some more levels and some content to go with them levels example: WoW, LotRO.) or "width wise" (adding more content for the current levels say more "end-game" raids, more features, maybe some more "end-game" pvp, etc,etc. Example:EQ2 TSO, and EVE Online) "End-Game" isn't necessarily a bad thing or a good think it depends on your personal preference. and thats my opinion on End Game in MMOs
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I think NeoCron has a pretty good endgame... even when u kap u dont stop advancement. I dont think i've ever "end gamed" another game. most have some what decent story lines but higher levels tend to be borning to say the least and never got to the end.. or as someone said, the prize at the end just wasnt interesting enough and to much focus on building the middle of the game and not the end...
that might be people norm to work from Start to Finish in place of making sure the end is good or great then filling in the rest. I truely believe coders get tired and the laziest shows up torwards the end which is most of the time the most buggest (if u've ever noticed).
Games I've Played: SilkRoad, Flyff, NeoCron, PlanetSide, Rapplez, UpshiftRacer, Drift City, TB, Kwonho, ArchLord, AoA, Exteel, WolfTeam, Shaiyan, WoKF, FFXIV, STO, KoTR, ESO, Defiance, Mabinogi
Games I'm Playing: Warframe/STO
Games I'm Pondering: The Secret World
AHHH, but you’re talking about games with a narrative. Remove the narrative. Your also talking about games where the idea of content is a one time use. Also known as: a side affect of levels and linear power progressions and sliding scales.
The last line of your statement is a sign you have been conditioned. (Dont take it the wrong way there.)
Also this one: "There is no getting around an engame unless you adapt a system such as EVE or like a web browser where your non financial character progression is through time, not through actually playing."
That's quite untrue. I guess ill break my own rule. Planetside. Planetside does not provide vertical progression in power, what I provide is horizontal progression in OPTIONS, it also has no stats and no classes.
That just means the game is endgame from day one. Sooner or later, you're going to acquire all the "options" available, and then you're just spinning your wheels.
Not at all, have you played Planetside? Acquiring all the options is not possible, but you can swap out the options when you want to change your playstyle. That's part of it, it allows you to make your playstyle, not just fill some "Class" labeled "hero".
To the people above me, we dont need more explanations on what "Endgame is" is, thread is not about that, or, whats a good endgame.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I fi want a journey i play single player games. Enjoyed Fallout 3 (for its freedom) and Mass Effect (for its story) lately.
MMO's to me are about playing with friends. I like exploring, fighting and generally creating my own stories up by playing through content with friends. I dislike grinds and the fact that levels can segregate friends (people who play a lot getting to far ahead of others and not be able to group and do certain content).
MMO's seem to be focusing too much on solo play now for me. Its a tricky balance to get between solo and group content but i play mmo's for the group interaction whether its fighting my way through a dungeon with friends or crafting a set of armor for a paying customer its the social interaction that interests me.
I dont think endgame is a failure its just most endgames are repetitive boring grinds for gear. Raiding is fun when you are working out how to beat the boss and working as a team to do it. Grinding that boss over and over just to gear up so you can progress to the next boss is boring.
I think EVE has the right idea its just too bad i never got into the game. Giving players/guilds reasons and resources to fight over and the tools to fight with leads to player created content which is more dynamic.
Nice post, i think you hit on a lot of good points.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Well .. endgame is inevitable because the amount of content that can be produced is limited (very expensive to produce).
You can mask that a bit by using algorithms or having players to help (like pvp) but ultimately you cannot squeeze blood out of stone.
For example, the number of distinct models in a game is finite. You just can have 100x more because they are expensive. That is why developers retexture, recolor, and sometimes just reword the same model into different objects.
Personally i think this is fine. Just "finish" a game and move on. There are plenty of games where they come from.
Oh, and forget about players generated content. 99.9% are crap.