Except for the part where they have 350K people banging on their door to let them play, plus probably double that of which will buy it post release who havent heard of teh game from word of mouth... Yeah, im sure the game will have 5K subs. 150-250k is more than enough to keep the game running, anymore is just surplus. They are not blizzard, they arent in this for 100+millions, they are making a fun game for gamers to enjoy, not to pad there corporate pockets.
Those 350k could be wanting to play it for all the wrong reasons also. I'm sure theres quite a few people who think this game is going to play out the way they want it to. Then to find out it's not what they wanted and leave the game. Retention rate is what will make or break Darkfall. And the OP does have a point, full loot PvP is not something alot of people enjoy. You can look at any game that offers both PvP and PvE and see which one has more people per server. And to sit here and think Aventurine does not want to make millions off Darkfall is stupid. Any company wants to make the most out of thier product. Just because Tasos said so, doesn't mean the investors say so. Behind every game company is atleast one greedy investor. The whole, only having a certain people at launch, is only because that is what they can afford. Once they start to gain profit, see a high retention rate after the first month, and see the pre-orders pickup thier copy, you can bet you will see more servers and more dollars in there pocket. You think once they reach a certain point, they are going to say, "No guys, no more cash please, we have enough. We don't want to take your cash. We just wanted a fun game for you to enjoy." Doubtful, very doubtful. Darkfall won't be the second coming of christ. It won't be the next WoW and it will be lucky to survive in a land full of clones. Why, you ask. Because even with all its claimed inovativeness, it still has one set of rules. Full Loot PvP. And people like many choices, not just one.
For all you Darkfall fans who want this game to succeed. I would suggest getting people to see whats great about full loot pvp instead of pushing people out the door. Your only hurting your community by doing this. And to sit here with an elitist attitude and not care about it will only make this game have less subs. Remember, the best marketing is viral marketing. Show them whats great instead of the random, "No one cares, you can leave" posts. And yes it can get redundant, but if you care about this game, It shouldnt matter.
How are we hurting our community? We know what we want already. We know that there are a lot of people out there who will love it as well. And ultimately.. some that done. How is that any different from any game?
I'm sure you'll get your one or two PvE servers. That's usually how it works. But to say that they are more populated is downright insane.. especially that in most games.. there are only like.. 5% of the servers that do PVE only.
If you don't like the game, then go play something else.. you have plenty to choose from.
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
Because they're generally done half-assed.
Also, you can't give games like WoW a full loot server. Nobody wants to lose items that take 100 hours of playing time to aquire. However, in UO good items were easy to come by, so when you lost them it wasn't a huge deal. Darfkall (supposedly) will be the same way.
Take one of your shittier, low-level WoW items for example. If you lost it when you died, would you freak out? No.
look.... this whole "catering to each player thing" is what has been killing MMOs. I think that everyone has been bored with MMOs recently(at least anyone who has played them for a while). Well, MMOs are a little different from other games in that they are really a virtual world, with all different types of people interacting in an otherworldly setting (any setting that is not present day, though i guess you could have one that is present but thats another story). The key term here is "different". In order to have a truely fun game, there must be all different types of players interacting. Having PVP, PVE, RP, RPPVP, RVR, FFAPVP, FFA full loot, full loot, etc. splits the community up into these small groups, making each server bland in the sense that it doesnt encompass a variety of players. There should be in every game, on every server, gankers, Pkers, murderers, those who catch murderers, role players, PVEers, PVPers, crafters, merchants, etc. I personally hate being ganked, but would love to get a group together and go kill known gankers (they hate dying just as much as us non gankers do). So yes, FFAPVP with full loot is harsh, but it has much more potential for a fun and engaging world which you would be more likely to spend years in. Splitting up comunities and disallowing freedom in MMOs is what is killing them.
On the flip side i support safe zones/ places you cant get killed to a certain extend, as long as the greatest reward is found in FFA/ PVP areas, risk vs reward right? (see old school runescape for somewhat of an example with the wilderness, though with more of it and better rewards there). I have found that it is nice to be safe from time to time
Because when you don't give your players a choice to play NON-PvP, and when they don't know the difference, chances are - their going to just play the game for what it gives them. The times have changed, I personally enjoyed pre-Kunark EQ, but - those days are gone. I do like to PvP, but let's face it - full-loot? That's Retarded, and only gankers and trolls will play this game for the sake of killing eachother worldwide over and over again - and guess what? That's nothing different compared to WoW - save for the fact that rather than playing in a battleground or whatnot, it's WORLDWIDE...... I'll probably try Darkfall, but after being ganked a bit I'll just quit and get my credit card company to reimburse my money. It's all good.
Don't play if you can't handle it. It was never advertised to cater to the non-competitive gamer. Yes, it will be a world full of people backstabbing each other all the time. There will just be people who are better at it than others. I hope Adventurine and Star Vault don't give in and cater to the carebears.
If people can have their anti-pvp theme park games, why can't people also have some more hardcore pvp sandbox games?
Because of fools like you UO was ruined. Darkfall is Feluca and if you dont like it go play some MMO like WOW etc. that can only do one thing - babysitting you.
Seriously, who the fuck are you to decide what is right and what is wrong in someone else's eyes? The customer is always right. Well, mostly. It's definately for a small minority of gamers but that does not make it wrong or a bad decision. It just makes it an interesting situation to see the 10 Million investment returning and keeping the publisher with a 35% cut happy.
Because those "hardcore" games like Darkfall won't withstand bankruptcy. Let's say, and this is only an example, 100k people try Darkfall. Afterward, only 5k stay. You really think 5,000 subscribers will hold the game afloat? Releasing with Full-PvP and Full-Loot will be great, sure, but after six months of it? No one ever read that one story about how a guy and his buddy spent two weeks in UO farming a shit-ton of items and money, then - out of nowhere - some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver. The right thing to do would make a Full-PvP, No-Loot server. Would that really hurt the game? If anything the Looters could just hang out on their server while the Non-Looters could do their thing on their own server. It makes sense. And I'll even place a bet that the Non-Loot server constantly remains over-populated. It's statistics. Think about it. If players aren't given a CHOICE, their going to go to another game, and if this game can't hold up subs, then it's going to eventually die off MUCH quicker than you could ever think of. And You're right, carebears do have their own games, but they want something new - something refreshing - I'm not looking at the interest of the mainstream, casual gamer - I'm looking at the interests of Aventurine keeping it's game afloat.
EDIT : And before anyone claims I'm a carebear, you're wrong - because as mentioned above - someone ganked and looted two guys - that someone is me. But I felt bad about it when I read the story. I will spend some time looking for it, give me a bit.
Come on... if your foolish enough to have 2 weeks worth of earned crap on you, your asking for it to be taken. And which games do you know of give the /option/ of full loot or not? I can't think of one that is of any significance nor is a twitch game.
Seriously, who the fuck are you to decide what is right and what is wrong in someone else's eyes? The customer is always right. Well, mostly. It's definately for a small minority of gamers but that does not make it wrong or a bad decision. It just makes it an interesting situation to see the 10 Million investment returning and keeping the publisher with a 35% cut happy.
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
No one ever read that one story about how a guy and his buddy spent two weeks in UO farming a shit-ton of items and money, then - out of nowhere - some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
Also, I don't even think that was POSSIBLE as you could only carry so many items/gold on your character at one time.
There was a bank to hold your money and items in. It was free to use. It held a ton of stuff. If you had that much money, you could buy a house and put even more of your stuff in it.
The only things an average UO player carried was their clothing/armor a couple of weapons, some potions, and some reagents. If you died and lost them, you went back to your bank and got your spares.
Anyone who'd complain about losing such items either never played the game or was severely handicapped.
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
Because they're generally done half-assed.
Also, you can't give games like WoW a full loot server. Nobody wants to lose items that take 100 hours of playing time to aquire. However, in UO good items were easy to come by, so when you lost them it wasn't a huge deal. Darfkall (supposedly) will be the same way.
Take one of your shittier, low-level WoW items for example. If you lost it when you died, would you freak out? No.
Same concept.
As an old UO player (played from the start) it was never a matter of loot or the pvp (pretty much the only game that I actually enjoyed PvPing - PK Hunting was fun)
What killed UO pvp was when it came to the community. We lost some pretty good PK guilds who just got tired of the morons who started speaking on behalf of the majority. It really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
As I said, the community is the biggest advertisement a game has. When the community starts to run a smear campaign against the game by acting like rolftards and telling people to leave the game, well, when the game starts to have more tumbleweeds than players its thier own fault.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Also, certain "precious" items were not lootable in UO.
This included House Deeds, House Keys, Rune Books, and newbie gear. Those were basically some of the only invaluable items in the game. Everything else cost the equivalent of a bag of ramen in real world terms.
Full loot doesn't work in a game like WoW because the loot you have is priceless. In UO, there were little (if any) priceless items that people carried on them. When you died, it sucked because you lost your pride and some items, but you could restock fairly easy. That is why full loot worked. If a person had an average of 30,000 coins in their bank. Then when they died, they lost about 2,000 to 3,000 worth of items - it was not crippling. It stung, but you didn't want to quit the game over it. You just wanted to go back and kill the asshole who killed you - creating an intensely entertaining PvP system. If you took away full loot, the game would have been boring.
Some did some didn't. Trammel killed Felucca not because it was carebear it killed it because carebears didn't want to play on felluca. They would have left UO for greener pastures anyway if there had been no Trammel. Darkfall will see a lot of that and those people will leave. Then it may have the same problem that plauged Felucca and Shadowbane. Big empty world syndrome. It's a very real issue with open PvP games. We'll just have to see how big the market is for full loot open PvP.
Shadowbane was a bad game, period.
The point is, if someone made a quality PvP oriented game,it would do fine. Whether Darkfall is one, is highly debatable, but to say that a PvP based game with full loot can never be successful is wrong.
Ah, here we go again.
The Hardcore's Alternate History of Gaming, Chapter XV: "Shadowbane failed because of its glitches, not its premise".
How convenient. If Darkfall fails, we can already expect that one: It wasn't because of full-loot PvP, it was because of the bugs and glitches. Every FFA PvP game that comes out and fails, it will never be because it's full-loot, it will always be something else that gets the blame...
Seriously, who the fuck are you to decide what is right and what is wrong in someone else's eyes? The customer is always right. Well, mostly. It's definately for a small minority of gamers but that does not make it wrong or a bad decision. It just makes it an interesting situation to see the 10 Million investment returning and keeping the publisher with a 35% cut happy.
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
You will be surprised how quickly the "target audience" can and will be redefined.
Darkfall is not a shelter project for homeless hardcore players. Darkfall will (at least try) to bend to, and obey to the same rules of the market like any other project.
No one ever read that one story about how a guy and his buddy spent two weeks in UO farming a shit-ton of items and money, then - out of nowhere - some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
Also, I don't even think that was POSSIBLE as you could only carry so many items/gold on your character at one time.
There was a bank to hold your money and items in. It was free to use. It held a ton of stuff. If you had that much money, you could buy a house and put even more of your stuff in it.
The only things an average UO player carried was their clothing/armor a couple of weapons, some potions, and some reagents. If you died and lost them, you went back to your bank and got your spares.
Anyone who'd complain about losing such items either never played the game or was severely handicapped.
There was also the fact that carrying too much stuff caused you to become overwieght making you a sitting duck because you couldint move :P
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Originally posted by fyerwallIt really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Ah, here we go again. The Hardcore's Alternate History of Gaming, Chapter XV: "Shadowbane failed because of its glitches, not its premise". How convenient. If Darkfall fails, we can already expect that one: It wasn't because of full-loot PvP, it was because of the bugs and glitches. Every FFA PvP game that comes out and fails, it will never be because it's full-loot, it will always be something else that gets the blame...
How is that alternate history? It's my opinion. I played Shadowbane. I thought the interface and graphics sucked right off the bat (the terrain looked like one of those old PC Golfing games). I played it despite this, and I still didn't like it.
It was a bad game. Have you played it? Full PvP or no, it wasn't well made.
If Darkfall has all of the features it claims and still fails, it WILL be because it wasn't executed well not because the ideas were poor.
How is that alternate history? It's my opinion. I played Shadowbane. I thought the interface and graphics sucked right off the bat (the terrain looked like one of those old PC Golfing games). I played it despite this, and I still didn't like it. It was a bad game. Have you played it? Full PvP or no, it wasn't well made.
Shadowbane isn't a bad game. It has most of the stuff darkfall is going to have. And yet nobody plays it.
Originally posted by fyerwallIt really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
***I cut the previous quote because I just wanted to respond to this*** Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Personally that was the point of view I ended up with in UO.
The problem is not everyone feels that way. The first guild before you could really be a guild (aka no guild stones yet) was run by a husband/wife that were in their 50's. She just wanted to be a tamer... for an example. So she could either tame bunnies the rest of the game (was no trammel in 1997 or any idea there would be). Or she could deal with some moron that helped destroy the game.
Griefers in the end are the enemy of the game. They were what brought the dramatic changes to UO and destroyed it for the majority. Look around and show me a pvp MMO where this hasn't happened...
Which is more or less the point.
The long view imho is that Felucca didn't become a ghost town due to trammel (as an example).
The knee jerk reactions with the murder system.. stat loss etc were due to players leaving.
Imagine if the game had launched with Trammel and given players the choice of what they wanted to.. and had never had a murder system or stat loss because they wouldn't have been needed.
In fact after Trammel came into the game I never understood why the previous penalty systems weren't removed.. at the time anyway.
The first two years or so of UO were the best MMO gaming I've ever had. So take my point of view for what it is.. I never quit due to griefers, gankers etc I played up until 2002 and everyone I knew in game was long gone before then...
I stayed because I liked the game /shrug
*note* I still find it impossible to believe that the highest subscriber numbers were after AoS.. so I guess my point of view probably isn't very accurate so its my opinion with no claim to a factual basis. According to EA the numbers after AoS weren't only the peak they far exceeded any previous time and AoS from my point of view was the biggest pile of crap up till that time. I only mention this because my point of view of the earlier game is probably just as far off on certain aspects.
Originally posted by fyerwallIt really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There were a ton of resources and friendly players in UO, no? I think the ones that didn't know, gave up too easily and didn't bother trying. This was something I didn't mind. I was probably 13 years old when I first played UO and I was able to figure out how to avoid being ganked. And, if I was ganked and felt the need for revenge, I'd call my guild and we'd go try to fight em.
Without PKs, you would have never "had a blast" playing security because you wouldn't have been needed. That's what made the game great, no? Protecting people from PKers. Therefore, the PKers were a neccessary part of the equation.
Seriously, who the fuck are you to decide what is right and what is wrong in someone else's eyes? The customer is always right. Well, mostly. It's definately for a small minority of gamers but that does not make it wrong or a bad decision. It just makes it an interesting situation to see the 10 Million investment returning and keeping the publisher with a 35% cut happy.
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
You will be surprised how quickly the "target audience" can and will be redefined.
Darkfall is not a shelter project for homeless hardcore players. Darkfall will (at least try) to bend to, and obey to the same rules of the market like any other project.
The only reason the target audience would be redifined is if there wasnt enough support for the game in its current state (like swg). Darkfall, if executed properly, should have no problem reaching the niche market its going for. Theres no reason at this point to assume the devs will compromise their game scope to accomodate care bears and alienate the audience they're obviously shooting for.
Cutting servers in two instead of opening PvE shards followed by Transfers and Merges if needed, was the reason Felucca became a ghost town.
You can't just cut a comunity in two and expect everything will be fine. Even if both sides have equal number of players, 50% PVErs and 50% PvPrs, you reduce by half the amount of people they can interact.
Originally posted by fyerwallIt really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There were a ton of resources and friendly players in UO, no? I think the ones that didn't know, gave up too easily and didn't bother trying. This was something I didn't mind. I was probably 13 years old when I first played UO and I was able to figure out how to avoid being ganked. And, if I was ganked and felt the need for revenge, I'd call my guild and we'd go try to fight em.
Without PKs, you would have never "had a blast" playing security because you wouldn't have been needed. That's what made the game great, no? Protecting people from PKers. Therefore, the PKers were a neccessary part of the equation.
I think your missing the point.
It has nothing to do with PKers. It has nothing to do with loot or PvP in general.
The community is both inside the game and outside the game on forums. When you have a community that is as negative and vocal as a KKK rally, you drive potential players, new players and even vet players away from a game. People can ask for resource links and, as with a lot of what is seen on these forums, be told in snide/rude ways to "STFU and google".
When the community is a one sided "holier than thou" collection of players, it has a negative impact on the game itself. That is what causes a game to either crash and burn or pull a 180 like UO did with the splits.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Full loot doesn't work in a game like WoW because the loot you have is priceless. In UO, there were little (if any) priceless items that people carried on them. When you died, it sucked because you lost your pride and some items, but you could restock fairly easy. That is why full loot worked. If a person had an average of 30,000 coins in their bank. Then when they died, they lost about 2,000 to 3,000 worth of items - it was not crippling. It stung, but you didn't want to quit the game over it. You just wanted to go back and kill the asshole who killed you - creating an intensely entertaining PvP system. If you took away full loot, the game would have been boring.
Some did some didn't. Trammel killed Felucca not because it was carebear it killed it because carebears didn't want to play on felluca. They would have left UO for greener pastures anyway if there had been no Trammel. Darkfall will see a lot of that and those people will leave. Then it may have the same problem that plauged Felucca and Shadowbane. Big empty world syndrome. It's a very real issue with open PvP games. We'll just have to see how big the market is for full loot open PvP.
Shadowbane was a bad game, period.
The point is, if someone made a quality PvP oriented game,it would do fine. Whether Darkfall is one, is highly debatable, but to say that a PvP based game with full loot can never be successful is wrong.
Ah, here we go again.
The Hardcore's Alternate History of Gaming, Chapter XV: "Shadowbane failed because of its glitches, not its premise".
How convenient. If Darkfall fails, we can already expect that one: It wasn't because of full-loot PvP, it was because of the bugs and glitches. Every FFA PvP game that comes out and fails, it will never be because it's full-loot, it will always be something else that gets the blame...
Vangaurd, AoC, and Dark and Light didn't fail because of full loot... should we blame it on their PvE or the games themselves as most peopel say about Shadowbane. The problem is... there are a handfull of PvP oriented MMos to even speak on... and UO was one of them and was very successful before the whole trammel thing. Shadowbane... i don't know what truly happened to it, but it's the only one i hear of it being because of the game not being well made... not because of the game play decisions made.
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Those 350k could be wanting to play it for all the wrong reasons also. I'm sure theres quite a few people who think this game is going to play out the way they want it to. Then to find out it's not what they wanted and leave the game. Retention rate is what will make or break Darkfall. And the OP does have a point, full loot PvP is not something alot of people enjoy. You can look at any game that offers both PvP and PvE and see which one has more people per server. And to sit here and think Aventurine does not want to make millions off Darkfall is stupid. Any company wants to make the most out of thier product. Just because Tasos said so, doesn't mean the investors say so. Behind every game company is atleast one greedy investor. The whole, only having a certain people at launch, is only because that is what they can afford. Once they start to gain profit, see a high retention rate after the first month, and see the pre-orders pickup thier copy, you can bet you will see more servers and more dollars in there pocket. You think once they reach a certain point, they are going to say, "No guys, no more cash please, we have enough. We don't want to take your cash. We just wanted a fun game for you to enjoy." Doubtful, very doubtful. Darkfall won't be the second coming of christ. It won't be the next WoW and it will be lucky to survive in a land full of clones. Why, you ask. Because even with all its claimed inovativeness, it still has one set of rules. Full Loot PvP. And people like many choices, not just one.
For all you Darkfall fans who want this game to succeed. I would suggest getting people to see whats great about full loot pvp instead of pushing people out the door. Your only hurting your community by doing this. And to sit here with an elitist attitude and not care about it will only make this game have less subs. Remember, the best marketing is viral marketing. Show them whats great instead of the random, "No one cares, you can leave" posts. And yes it can get redundant, but if you care about this game, It shouldnt matter.
How are we hurting our community? We know what we want already. We know that there are a lot of people out there who will love it as well. And ultimately.. some that done. How is that any different from any game?
I'm sure you'll get your one or two PvE servers. That's usually how it works. But to say that they are more populated is downright insane.. especially that in most games.. there are only like.. 5% of the servers that do PVE only.
If you don't like the game, then go play something else.. you have plenty to choose from.
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
Because they're generally done half-assed.
Also, you can't give games like WoW a full loot server. Nobody wants to lose items that take 100 hours of playing time to aquire. However, in UO good items were easy to come by, so when you lost them it wasn't a huge deal. Darfkall (supposedly) will be the same way.
Take one of your shittier, low-level WoW items for example. If you lost it when you died, would you freak out? No.
Same concept.
look.... this whole "catering to each player thing" is what has been killing MMOs. I think that everyone has been bored with MMOs recently(at least anyone who has played them for a while). Well, MMOs are a little different from other games in that they are really a virtual world, with all different types of people interacting in an otherworldly setting (any setting that is not present day, though i guess you could have one that is present but thats another story). The key term here is "different". In order to have a truely fun game, there must be all different types of players interacting. Having PVP, PVE, RP, RPPVP, RVR, FFAPVP, FFA full loot, full loot, etc. splits the community up into these small groups, making each server bland in the sense that it doesnt encompass a variety of players. There should be in every game, on every server, gankers, Pkers, murderers, those who catch murderers, role players, PVEers, PVPers, crafters, merchants, etc. I personally hate being ganked, but would love to get a group together and go kill known gankers (they hate dying just as much as us non gankers do). So yes, FFAPVP with full loot is harsh, but it has much more potential for a fun and engaging world which you would be more likely to spend years in. Splitting up comunities and disallowing freedom in MMOs is what is killing them.
On the flip side i support safe zones/ places you cant get killed to a certain extend, as long as the greatest reward is found in FFA/ PVP areas, risk vs reward right? (see old school runescape for somewhat of an example with the wilderness, though with more of it and better rewards there). I have found that it is nice to be safe from time to time
Don't play if you can't handle it. It was never advertised to cater to the non-competitive gamer. Yes, it will be a world full of people backstabbing each other all the time. There will just be people who are better at it than others. I hope Adventurine and Star Vault don't give in and cater to the carebears.
If people can have their anti-pvp theme park games, why can't people also have some more hardcore pvp sandbox games?
Well said.
If it is possible it usually best to have both ruleset, the more players you get the better for the game.
However if too big percentage of the game is PvP it isn't worth it, if the PvE content is too small it will just piss players off.
Because of fools like you UO was ruined. Darkfall is Feluca and if you dont like it go play some MMO like WOW etc. that can only do one thing - babysitting you.
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Nobody is useless, he/she can still be used as a bad example.
Come on... if your foolish enough to have 2 weeks worth of earned crap on you, your asking for it to be taken. And which games do you know of give the /option/ of full loot or not? I can't think of one that is of any significance nor is a twitch game.
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
Also, I don't even think that was POSSIBLE as you could only carry so many items/gold on your character at one time.
There was a bank to hold your money and items in. It was free to use. It held a ton of stuff. If you had that much money, you could buy a house and put even more of your stuff in it.
The only things an average UO player carried was their clothing/armor a couple of weapons, some potions, and some reagents. If you died and lost them, you went back to your bank and got your spares.
Anyone who'd complain about losing such items either never played the game or was severely handicapped.
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
Because they're generally done half-assed.
Also, you can't give games like WoW a full loot server. Nobody wants to lose items that take 100 hours of playing time to aquire. However, in UO good items were easy to come by, so when you lost them it wasn't a huge deal. Darfkall (supposedly) will be the same way.
Take one of your shittier, low-level WoW items for example. If you lost it when you died, would you freak out? No.
Same concept.
As an old UO player (played from the start) it was never a matter of loot or the pvp (pretty much the only game that I actually enjoyed PvPing - PK Hunting was fun)
What killed UO pvp was when it came to the community. We lost some pretty good PK guilds who just got tired of the morons who started speaking on behalf of the majority. It really had nothing to do with loot, it just got to the point where people would just camp outside towns waitng for anyone to walk buy just to gank them and grief them. Then when you got to the forums you had the same class of player hijacking threads and name calling for no reason other than to grief.
As I said, the community is the biggest advertisement a game has. When the community starts to run a smear campaign against the game by acting like rolftards and telling people to leave the game, well, when the game starts to have more tumbleweeds than players its thier own fault.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Also, certain "precious" items were not lootable in UO.
This included House Deeds, House Keys, Rune Books, and newbie gear. Those were basically some of the only invaluable items in the game. Everything else cost the equivalent of a bag of ramen in real world terms.
Some did some didn't. Trammel killed Felucca not because it was carebear it killed it because carebears didn't want to play on felluca. They would have left UO for greener pastures anyway if there had been no Trammel. Darkfall will see a lot of that and those people will leave. Then it may have the same problem that plauged Felucca and Shadowbane. Big empty world syndrome. It's a very real issue with open PvP games. We'll just have to see how big the market is for full loot open PvP.
Shadowbane was a bad game, period.
The point is, if someone made a quality PvP oriented game,it would do fine. Whether Darkfall is one, is highly debatable, but to say that a PvP based game with full loot can never be successful is wrong.
Ah, here we go again.
The Hardcore's Alternate History of Gaming, Chapter XV: "Shadowbane failed because of its glitches, not its premise".
How convenient. If Darkfall fails, we can already expect that one: It wasn't because of full-loot PvP, it was because of the bugs and glitches. Every FFA PvP game that comes out and fails, it will never be because it's full-loot, it will always be something else that gets the blame...
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
You will be surprised how quickly the "target audience" can and will be redefined.
Darkfall is not a shelter project for homeless hardcore players. Darkfall will (at least try) to bend to, and obey to the same rules of the market like any other project.
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Nobody is useless, he/she can still be used as a bad example.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
Also, I don't even think that was POSSIBLE as you could only carry so many items/gold on your character at one time.
There was a bank to hold your money and items in. It was free to use. It held a ton of stuff. If you had that much money, you could buy a house and put even more of your stuff in it.
The only things an average UO player carried was their clothing/armor a couple of weapons, some potions, and some reagents. If you died and lost them, you went back to your bank and got your spares.
Anyone who'd complain about losing such items either never played the game or was severely handicapped.
There was also the fact that carrying too much stuff caused you to become overwieght making you a sitting duck because you couldint move :P
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
How is that alternate history? It's my opinion. I played Shadowbane. I thought the interface and graphics sucked right off the bat (the terrain looked like one of those old PC Golfing games). I played it despite this, and I still didn't like it.
It was a bad game. Have you played it? Full PvP or no, it wasn't well made.
If Darkfall has all of the features it claims and still fails, it WILL be because it wasn't executed well not because the ideas were poor.
Shadowbane isn't a bad game. It has most of the stuff darkfall is going to have. And yet nobody plays it.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Personally that was the point of view I ended up with in UO.
The problem is not everyone feels that way. The first guild before you could really be a guild (aka no guild stones yet) was run by a husband/wife that were in their 50's. She just wanted to be a tamer... for an example. So she could either tame bunnies the rest of the game (was no trammel in 1997 or any idea there would be). Or she could deal with some moron that helped destroy the game.
Griefers in the end are the enemy of the game. They were what brought the dramatic changes to UO and destroyed it for the majority. Look around and show me a pvp MMO where this hasn't happened...
Which is more or less the point.
The long view imho is that Felucca didn't become a ghost town due to trammel (as an example).
The knee jerk reactions with the murder system.. stat loss etc were due to players leaving.
Imagine if the game had launched with Trammel and given players the choice of what they wanted to.. and had never had a murder system or stat loss because they wouldn't have been needed.
In fact after Trammel came into the game I never understood why the previous penalty systems weren't removed.. at the time anyway.
The first two years or so of UO were the best MMO gaming I've ever had. So take my point of view for what it is.. I never quit due to griefers, gankers etc I played up until 2002 and everyone I knew in game was long gone before then...
I stayed because I liked the game /shrug
*note* I still find it impossible to believe that the highest subscriber numbers were after AoS.. so I guess my point of view probably isn't very accurate so its my opinion with no claim to a factual basis. According to EA the numbers after AoS weren't only the peak they far exceeded any previous time and AoS from my point of view was the biggest pile of crap up till that time. I only mention this because my point of view of the earlier game is probably just as far off on certain aspects.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There were a ton of resources and friendly players in UO, no? I think the ones that didn't know, gave up too easily and didn't bother trying. This was something I didn't mind. I was probably 13 years old when I first played UO and I was able to figure out how to avoid being ganked. And, if I was ganked and felt the need for revenge, I'd call my guild and we'd go try to fight em.
Without PKs, you would have never "had a blast" playing security because you wouldn't have been needed. That's what made the game great, no? Protecting people from PKers. Therefore, the PKers were a neccessary part of the equation.
You're not a customer if you dont like the product.
The target audience is always right. The whiners can go elsewhere.
You will be surprised how quickly the "target audience" can and will be redefined.
Darkfall is not a shelter project for homeless hardcore players. Darkfall will (at least try) to bend to, and obey to the same rules of the market like any other project.
The only reason the target audience would be redifined is if there wasnt enough support for the game in its current state (like swg). Darkfall, if executed properly, should have no problem reaching the niche market its going for. Theres no reason at this point to assume the devs will compromise their game scope to accomodate care bears and alienate the audience they're obviously shooting for.
What they did with UO was a newbie mistake.
Cutting servers in two instead of opening PvE shards followed by Transfers and Merges if needed, was the reason Felucca became a ghost town.
You can't just cut a comunity in two and expect everything will be fine. Even if both sides have equal number of players, 50% PVErs and 50% PvPrs, you reduce by half the amount of people they can interact.
A newbie mistake in a newbie industry.
Then why go to those places? There were runes and moongates, you could easily avoid them. You can't punish the rest of us for your lack of good gaming sense.
To me, "griefers" were the enemy of the game. I enjoyed PvPing against them. It's much more exciting gaming against a person (this is a muli PLAYER game, right?) than some AI. It's even more exciting when I have a personal grudge against the person (within the context of a game) and am not just wanting to kill them because they're an Orc and I'm a human or some other in-game race war junk.
Well see the first part is where it got tricky. We knew to use recall runes and the such. It was the new players who didnt know or really have access to this stuff of the bat. They were the ones who would be ganked and griefed to no end. They would seek advice on the forums on what to do, but the threads would quickly become flames and name calling. Eventually these people just decided to play something else.
And thats what I am getting at. You can still be hardcore pvpers yet offer help and advice in a friendly manner that doesnt result in name calling and chasing people away from a game.
I was in a PK hunter group on Chessy. We had a blast hunting reds or playing security for RP guilds who wanted protection for social events (which at times sucked because the reds knew it was more punishment for us if they just avoided the events - 3 hour RP wedding and not a single red... longest 3 hours EVER...)
There were a ton of resources and friendly players in UO, no? I think the ones that didn't know, gave up too easily and didn't bother trying. This was something I didn't mind. I was probably 13 years old when I first played UO and I was able to figure out how to avoid being ganked. And, if I was ganked and felt the need for revenge, I'd call my guild and we'd go try to fight em.
Without PKs, you would have never "had a blast" playing security because you wouldn't have been needed. That's what made the game great, no? Protecting people from PKers. Therefore, the PKers were a neccessary part of the equation.
I think your missing the point.
It has nothing to do with PKers. It has nothing to do with loot or PvP in general.
The community is both inside the game and outside the game on forums. When you have a community that is as negative and vocal as a KKK rally, you drive potential players, new players and even vet players away from a game. People can ask for resource links and, as with a lot of what is seen on these forums, be told in snide/rude ways to "STFU and google".
When the community is a one sided "holier than thou" collection of players, it has a negative impact on the game itself. That is what causes a game to either crash and burn or pull a 180 like UO did with the splits.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Some did some didn't. Trammel killed Felucca not because it was carebear it killed it because carebears didn't want to play on felluca. They would have left UO for greener pastures anyway if there had been no Trammel. Darkfall will see a lot of that and those people will leave. Then it may have the same problem that plauged Felucca and Shadowbane. Big empty world syndrome. It's a very real issue with open PvP games. We'll just have to see how big the market is for full loot open PvP.
Shadowbane was a bad game, period.
The point is, if someone made a quality PvP oriented game,it would do fine. Whether Darkfall is one, is highly debatable, but to say that a PvP based game with full loot can never be successful is wrong.
Ah, here we go again.
The Hardcore's Alternate History of Gaming, Chapter XV: "Shadowbane failed because of its glitches, not its premise".
How convenient. If Darkfall fails, we can already expect that one: It wasn't because of full-loot PvP, it was because of the bugs and glitches. Every FFA PvP game that comes out and fails, it will never be because it's full-loot, it will always be something else that gets the blame...
Vangaurd, AoC, and Dark and Light didn't fail because of full loot... should we blame it on their PvE or the games themselves as most peopel say about Shadowbane. The problem is... there are a handfull of PvP oriented MMos to even speak on... and UO was one of them and was very successful before the whole trammel thing. Shadowbane... i don't know what truly happened to it, but it's the only one i hear of it being because of the game not being well made... not because of the game play decisions made.