What's going to happen is only the small minority of gamers out there, the "hardcore," live in mom's basement, 300 lb'ers will play Darkfall bc of the FFA PvP. Then, in an effort to acutally make some money (which is the goal of all game companies), they'll open a "Trammel." Then the subs will roll in, and the game witll be fun for a majority of gamers. Why not cut through the inevitable and create the Trammel-version now?
The 300lbers are the WoW players who literally cry their eyes out for a videogame. The other, stable people, will not be crying when we die because we realize that this is a VIDEO GAME and losing some of your items is not the end of the world.
People who hate non-consenual PvP and full-loot play MMOs for different reasons. They play because they have no outlet for socializing and want to be their avatar with all of his shiny objects. People who enjoy non-consenual PvP enjoy a good game, they enjoy competiing in a game against real people and understand that to lose is part of the game. That's right it's a game. It's not real life. When you lose your pixels, it's not the end of the world.
One group can't handle losing in a game.
The other can.
Well, ya lost me here. Now it just boils down to the stable and the non-stable people?
Someone mentioned it earlier, it's the players themselves that ruin a full loot no-con pvp mmorpg.
"The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands, To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming! On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
There are lot of people around who think DF will have no Chance cause of its Hardcore ruleset. Ok lets think about some other games. UO had this ruleset and worked until they changed it. Even Shadowbane (lots of bugs, crappy gfx) had players who liked it (i did) and haf fun playing. At this time when those game came out the market was probably 100x smaller then now. If there were only 500-1000 true PvP players at those times im sure we have about 100k interested people who would prefer such a ruleset over an other one today.
You always do say that UO became more popular after trammel? Ok but why do you think that the change in the game concept was the cause??? Couldnt it be that more people got better Internet Connections, that more people used PC for playing online? More people could afford it???
You do say this an old concept that won´t work. I´m sure this is a concept that will finally be copied by a lot of other games if Aventurine mangages to bring a stable game with the promised features.
Sorry, pre-Trammel, you could lose ANYTHING. Including the items you listed above. House deeds, keys unlootable? Lol, yes they were. Runebooks and your "newbie" weapon? Yep again, but only if it was kept anywhere except in your main pack. Please, if you are going to try to tell how UO "was", at least get it right. Thanks.
Those items (most of them, iirc) were made unlootable/stealable before trammel. But you're right, at one time they were lootable (which I admit sucked).
And why would anyone put their runebook in a seperate pack if that made it lootable? That one was just common sense.
Either way, nobody carried a house deed around carelessly. I remember anytime someone in my guild bought a house, we all went together (just in case) to go place it. And you know what? That was pretty exciting shit for a video game.
For the purpose of this thread, we are talking about pre-1999 UO. That era of UO everything with the exception of your starter item (which was basically a class item) was lootable. That's why when you rezzed, you had a Deathrobe. Because you were literally without anything cept your under clothes.
Runebooks didn't even exist before 1999, and it was less than a year after their introduction that Trammel came into being.
To the best that I can recall, house deeds were always lootable up until the introduction of the Housing Tool. Which was also after Trammel.
As to why anyone would do anything that seems like common sense not to do? I would say, because untill something happens like that to you, or to someone you know, and if you don't care to keep up with every litle aspect of the game on a 24/7 basis, things will happen. After a few of these "suprises", people the mainstream player (even some of the ones that enjoy PvP) will decide it is not worth the effort to put another suit of armour together, or that spellbook full of spells, etc....
Which leads us to the Achilles heal of Open World, Full Loot PvP 24/7. After a while, the only ones left are the players pretty well versed in the concept. And it isn't too long before what I term the "Crocodile Syndrome" sets in. Where the adults will eat there young if hungry. I.E. Felucca.
Will Darkfall fail? I don't know. Personally, I don't feel that it will be able to support itself in today's economy without having mass market appeal in some way.
I'll give it a shot when/if it launches in the US. Untill then, I'll just stand in the road and kick it in.
I guess to me that is kinda the thing. People did stupid things or didn't know any better and paid the price. To be honest my first 30 days in UO were going to be my last 30 days. Then some people tried to talk to me.. my reaction literally was.. screw it if they are trying to snoop me I don't have anything left..
Ended up making friends... forming what we called a guild (obviously guild stones weren't in the game yet but..) and even tho all those people (except 2) were gone by the summer of 98... UO is the MMO I played the longest with no breaks.. 5 years or close enough to it.
Honestly after a while I don't even remember being attacked by a pk and this was before the murder penalties really started kicking in. I never was one to eat my young either... when everyone else was saying "target me and hit.." I don't even remember the auto attack key ... you know then they'd all point and laugh while they looted the "noob".
I was the moron showing people how to make money so they would stop begging for it.
UO had a great community.. I mean there was a group to hang out with for everyone.. right down to the outright aholes.
And ya when I placed our "guild" tower in very early 1998.. dunno how we found a spot big enough. You better believe we were expecting to be attacked every minute.. altho I think we had close to 30 people out at the time.
To me that probably was a lot of it.. but there wasn't as many people playing then compared to today either. I'm not so sure you can find those isolated areas any more.. I guess maybe we'll find out altho I really haven't been to happy with any of the open pvp games I've tried since then.
The sheer volume of "good" and/or "bad" things you could do in UO... was what made it a great game imho. It wasn't just a game of griefing.. but it sure did happen. Friday night fights in Oasis desert on Sonoma for the most part were pretty calm. (yes I said.. for the most part...)
Don't get me wrong. I played UO from release untill shortly after AoS. Enjoyed every minute of it. Gave it another go in early 2007 for 6 months or so. Ummm, Ninjas and Samurais? Nope, not for me...
But as to the OT, there is a reason Felucca is a ghost town, and yes, it is called Trammel. But not for the reasons that the hardcore PvP folks charge...
The adrenaline rush of early days UO for me have been unmatched in any game since. I sure hope Darkfall can deliver some of that.
I ran UO solo big into the exploring and crafting etc. All this fuss on full loot, yes it sucks if you lose it all. But most of that is avoidable/manageable.
Never carry more than your willing to lose.
It all gets crunched down to gold coin and is safe in the bank.
Very quickly everybody and I mean everybody will have lost more good gear than they care to remember. So everybody in the game is running around semi naked or in some crap first edition full set.
Run faster than the other guy(s)zerg(s)faction(s) work on your mad stamina skillz.
All the gankers will become the ganked in a never ending vicious cycle and the real bandits in the game will be the outrageously rich and famous crafters making and selling nothing but crap full first edition armour/weapon sets.
Darkfall would have to be so extreme as everyone plays just to be red flagged then I would consider the OP as having a decent point.
It consistently amazes me the amount of speculation that happens within any forum before a game's release. Thread after thread of this constant bickering, all because of one little system vs. another. Can't you guys just get over it all? Preference is preference, and none of your preferences make you special. Ever.
With that being said, I can't see why this game could not accompany both rulesets. Honestly, it doesn't take much for a developer to turn off full loot in one server. Hell, I know that I will be trying the game myself, and I would find it a shame if I found it was too inhabited by dumb griefers and gankers, yet liked the game otherwise.
A lot of you also seem to have the notion that g&g'ers seem to only be found alone. While this may be a majority thing, that certainly does not rule out groups of them. I have seen it before in games like Lineage 2, and if you find them in one game, you will surely find them in another. One ganker usually amounts to nothing in the end, but a guild of them can make your life miserable if you cross them.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
You want a server ruleset with non-forced PVP. The developers do not. The only option right now is a simple request to implement this ruleset on a seperate server (which if you look at all the past mmos... it will probably happen eventually). The problem I see with the OP and others posting on this thread is that they seem to think they are right and the developers are wrong. Seriously, who the fuck are you to decide what is right and what is wrong in someone else's eyes?
We are the customers. And the customer is always right, or have you forgotten this old, but very true adage of business?
Of course its not to be taken literally, but what it does mean is that if you want people to buy your product, you'll build it to fit their needs, and not your own.
Which is why people have been making things to appeal to the largest subset of the consumer base, such as pop music, mainstream movies, fast food.
And then there's the niche market, which some mfg's chose to cater to and to which Aventurine clearly falls into.
It does not make the Developers right, or wrong, just the target market they chose to go after.
Personally, I think they should have built a game a la the EVE model, where safer areas in the game exist for the more PVE oriented player can enjoy the game, but game mechanics encourage them to foray into the PVP zones to interact with (aka risk being ganked) those who prefer pvp.
I don't think they have though, and I think they'll suffer for it. IMO most of the supporters of the hardcore pvp model will be disappointed when their favorite targets, the carebears aren't around for easy kills, and all they have to fight are people like themselves.
Many (not all) gankers are really not interested in a fair fight against an opponent, and they'll be the most disappointed of all the gamers in DF.
But, its a concept worth exploring, and only time (and an actual release) will tell whether the FFA full loot mechanic works for DF.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
I'm sure both stories are quite true. Over in EVE we constantly have stories of people carrying 6 or 7 billion ISK worth of blueprints or implants in a totally defenseless shuttle, going into AFK travel mode (instead of the much safer warp to zero, attended mode) and losing all of their stuff.
Never underestimate the stupidity of the player trying to save time in a pvp looting type game. (Or the ingenuity of the player or scammer who is trying to separate the fools from their money.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because when you don't give your players a choice to play NON-PvP, and when they don't know the difference, chances are - their going to just play the game for what it gives them. The times have changed, I personally enjoyed pre-Kunark EQ, but - those days are gone. I do like to PvP, but let's face it - full-loot? That's Retarded, and only gankers and trolls will play this game for the sake of killing eachother worldwide over and over again - and guess what? That's nothing different compared to WoW - save for the fact that rather than playing in a battleground or whatnot, it's WORLDWIDE...... I'll probably try Darkfall, but after being ganked a bit I'll just quit and get my credit card company to reimburse my money. It's all good.
Well it is a full loot FFA PvP game...
Though that said one on the recent "leaks" stated you can carry loads of armor in your inventory... wheher this incurs any penalities remains to be seen.
The is also rumblings of a global banking system. Whats the point of that ? Was not the whole idea that transporting goods around could be a part of meangful PvP via banditry. People will just bank horde.
So I am beginning to suspect yes this game is FFA PvP.. but intelligent FFA PvP. I think *if* I ever touch the game.. that the second hurdle will be level of intelligence requird to play. NO sirree this i not sounding like a fantasy Eve at all.
All the people whining about ganking will be the first to pre-order and play the game. Then cancel after getting ganked the first time.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
- UO (hundreds of thousands have touched it before Trammel, thousands of Felucca-only players still exist)
- Lineage (the first MMO in number of accounts before WoW success stories had full loot)
- Runescape (hundred of thousands played before pvp changes)
- EVE (250k players, still have full loot but now with very protected zones)
- Shadowbane (more than 100k have played, now population is small, but the game still exist)
- AC on Darktide (don't now if it still exists)
- EQ1 on Zek Servers (ganking in a PvE game + corpse camping with need of CR, an huge death penalty and partial looting is rather "worse" than full loot IMO). I even think most players who enjoyed blue EQ1 pre-luclin when the game was really hard may as well support an hardcore PvP game. Losing stuff, or losing xp + doing CRs are finally not that different, it's mainly supporting huge timesinks when you fail.
- or even people who liked WoW *before BGs* on a PvP server (ah the joys of being ganked, greykilled, corpse camped... The WoWers now have a carebear image, but I think people should remember how WoW was between the creation of the honor system and the implementation of instancied PvP, I'm sure the players who had the balls to play horde in this era may enjoy any hardcore pvp game as well)
(etc...etc...)
... have the masochistic NDA needed for darkfall.
It's a potential player base of several hundred of thousands not counting lost carebears, and most of these guys have been pissed by the "dumbing-down" of their games (or the disappearance/desertification of their specialized PvP servers).
So I think having hardcore PvP rules is what may make Darkfall a success more than what may explain an eventual failure (Darkfall, may fail for an hundred reasons, but I don't see the choice of an hardcore pvp system as one of them)
I'm sure there will be people who don't play or quit due to being looted, but I don't believe it'll make or break them. Sure they won't make as much money as they could, but if they got rid of full loot (even on 1 server) they would be going against everything they designed the game for.
You referenced UO pre-trammel as a bad thing, but really it was the best the game ever was. Sure the subscriptions went up after trammel, but what mmorpg (at that point) didn't see a growth after an expansion. The jump in subscriptions wasn't that much more than the previous jump when T2A was released. I know many people that came back to UO not because of the ruleset on Trammel but because they could build there, as Felucca didn't have any space left.
Furthermore, the looting in UO was not a bad thing. On average (probably around 80-90% of the time) if you died in UO and were looted; you only lost an hour of time at most. The other 10-20% of the time, when players lost something substantial, it was nobody's fault but the player who lost the items. If a player lost a house deed or anything major, they had nobody to blame but themselves. Same is true about magical or rare equipment, you didn't need to use that to be competitive so your only loss was a bit of pride (if you take pride in digital items).
Even more to the point, most of the mindless Griefers in UO were players who had alternate characters they could play. This won't be possible in DF, unless they are willing to buy another copy of the game and a 2nd subscription. Sure it won't eliminate those types of players, but it'll probably drastically lower the number of them.
Finally, the devs of DF have stated many times that items in DF will not be huge deal. If a player dies and loses his equipment so what? Go out and get more. Much like UO, I doubt players will lose much more than an hour of work in game, unless they are stupid (transporting large amounts of something w/o protection).
If they need to do anything, it'll be to make adjustments to the alignment system.
some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
Ummm...
Didnt everyone just walk upto a bank and say *bank* to get thier lockbox to open?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
1) UO was marketed as an MMORPG and only that. There was no talk of PVP, PVE, Raids, or any of that new MMO jargon. It was a huge melting pot. UO separated PVPers from PVEers. Current MMO's know this and target a specific audience. If you end up in a game that does not fit your play style it is YOUR fault.
2) Alternate ruleset servers are NOT the best of both worlds. A game has to built from the ground up to be one or the other. Ever fight a player in WOW that is 30 levels higher than you? Yay, what fun.
3) Saying that all other PVP MMOs and PvP servers have failed, therefore Darkfall will fail is pure ignorance. UO see (1), PvP servers see (2). Shadowbane was a piece of crap technically. No matter how good conceptually, if a game doesn't run properly, people will not play it.
I love pvp and the full looting aspect. However, I think a lot of the PvP will calm down after the first bit. At least players that plan on killing others of their race. I think eventually the 3 factions will take more priority than killing others of your own race, and will leave our own central locations relatively safe. Venturing further out will require planning, but fo those crafter types, staying close to your own city or better still, clancity will be viable. Venturing further would most likely be more of a group effort. Eventually there should be invisable lines players will know when not to go across while alone for instance. Uo did not have that in fel, there was no common enemy to pull away from PK'ing so it was a little too "every man for himself". I think it will level out after awhile.
Same BS arguments being thrown around. 2) Alternate ruleset servers are NOT the best of both worlds. A game has to built from the ground up to be one or the other. Ever fight a player in WOW that is 30 levels higher than you? Yay, what fun.
False choice. A game can be built from the ground up to be both PvP and PvE. Enough companies have tried it now to know what the pitfalls are. It's just a matter of time until someone does it right. Obviously Darkfall won't be that game. Alternate ruleset servers can also work if done properly. I doubt Darkfall has enough PvE to fall into that category either.
With most things in life there are tradeoffs. Sure it could be built to have both but it will not excel at both. Current PvE games are focussed on character advancement and itemization. These create dramatic character imbalances that give large advantages to timeplayed. Conversely, PvP builds minimize those traits which means that PvE oriented players get bored.
Alternate ruleset servers mean that the developers have to consider additional restraints as well as divert resources from one ruleset to the other. As in they have to consider how PvE addons and improvements will impact PvP. That is time they could have been building more zones, mobs, quests, items, etc if they did not have to worry about the alternate ruleset. Developers do not have unlimited resources.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that your argument that it is just a matter of time until someone gets it right is simple wishful thinking. If it is so easy then how would you do it without unlimited resources.
Because those "hardcore" games like Darkfall won't withstand bankruptcy. Let's say, and this is only an example, 100k people try Darkfall. Afterward, only 5k stay. You really think 5,000 subscribers will hold the game afloat? Releasing with Full-PvP and Full-Loot will be great, sure, but after six months of it? No one ever read that one story about how a guy and his buddy spent two weeks in UO farming a shit-ton of items and money, then - out of nowhere - some asshole popped up and "literally" killed them and took TWO WEEKS of items/gold/silver. The right thing to do would make a Full-PvP, No-Loot server. Would that really hurt the game? If anything the Looters could just hang out on their server while the Non-Looters could do their thing on their own server. It makes sense. And I'll even place a bet that the Non-Loot server constantly remains over-populated. It's statistics. Think about it. If players aren't given a CHOICE, their going to go to another game, and if this game can't hold up subs, then it's going to eventually die off MUCH quicker than you could ever think of. And You're right, carebears do have their own games, but they want something new - something refreshing - I'm not looking at the interest of the mainstream, casual gamer - I'm looking at the interests of Aventurine keeping it's game afloat.
EDIT : And before anyone claims I'm a carebear, you're wrong - because as mentioned above - someone ganked and looted two guys - that someone is me. But I felt bad about it when I read the story. I will spend some time looking for it, give me a bit.
Why not offer more than FFA PVP? I think what the OP is getting at is once Trammell came about that very few players ever went to Felucca to PVP......Also their sub numbers increased considerably when Trammell was introduced.......Maybe all the OP is aksing is that there be other alternatives to the FFA PVP ruleset (ie alternate ruleset servers)........
rolls eyes.
Because they are interested in offering a ffa pvp game precisly because there aren't many of them out there.
There is NOTHING wrong with that. Nothing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by fyerwall Originally posted by DAS1337 Originally posted by mackdawg19 Originally posted by FearmeirlExcept for the part where they have 350K people banging on their door to let them play, plus probably double that of which will buy it post release who havent heard of teh game from word of mouth... Yeah, im sure the game will have 5K subs. 150-250k is more than enough to keep the game running, anymore is just surplus. They are not blizzard, they arent in this for 100+millions, they are making a fun game for gamers to enjoy, not to pad there corporate pockets.
Those 350k could be wanting to play it for all the wrong reasons also. I'm sure theres quite a few people who think this game is going to play out the way they want it to. Then to find out it's not what they wanted and leave the game. Retention rate is what will make or break Darkfall. And the OP does have a point, full loot PvP is not something alot of people enjoy. You can look at any game that offers both PvP and PvE and see which one has more people per server. And to sit here and think Aventurine does not want to make millions off Darkfall is stupid. Any company wants to make the most out of thier product. Just because Tasos said so, doesn't mean the investors say so. Behind every game company is atleast one greedy investor. The whole, only having a certain people at launch, is only because that is what they can afford. Once they start to gain profit, see a high retention rate after the first month, and see the pre-orders pickup thier copy, you can bet you will see more servers and more dollars in there pocket. You think once they reach a certain point, they are going to say, "No guys, no more cash please, we have enough. We don't want to take your cash. We just wanted a fun game for you to enjoy." Doubtful, very doubtful. Darkfall won't be the second coming of christ. It won't be the next WoW and it will be lucky to survive in a land full of clones. Why, you ask. Because even with all its claimed inovativeness, it still has one set of rules. Full Loot PvP. And people like many choices, not just one. For all you Darkfall fans who want this game to succeed. I would suggest getting people to see whats great about full loot pvp instead of pushing people out the door. Your only hurting your community by doing this. And to sit here with an elitist attitude and not care about it will only make this game have less subs. Remember, the best marketing is viral marketing. Show them whats great instead of the random, "No one cares, you can leave" posts. And yes it can get redundant, but if you care about this game, It shouldnt matter. How are we hurting our community? We know what we want already. We know that there are a lot of people out there who will love it as well. And ultimately.. some that done. How is that any different from any game? I'm sure you'll get your one or two PvE servers. That's usually how it works. But to say that they are more populated is downright insane.. especially that in most games.. there are only like.. 5% of the servers that do PVE only.
If you don't like the game, then go play something else.. you have plenty to choose from. Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
First of all..Give us some proof of this You are only guessing here..
For example; When EQ2 introduced PvP servers they FAST became the most popular servers in the game.. I*m guessing thou that this has something to do with the fact that they introduced PvP 2 years after release and the population demanded something extra to spice up gameplay in EQ2, and It was a true success when the servers opened..
Secondly, yes you may be right in your guessings thou, PvP has always had less players than PvE, but my guess is that most of them simply do not know what they are missing, in a fun a strategic sort of way a NPC can never give you the same challenge to that of a real human opponent...
This is the challenge most would be after when entering Darkfalls world, and all of them also(Hopefully) knows that they will be killed, looted and again again and again, until a good strategy arise and they can revenge these players for what they did..Or some play just to be able to stay out of trouble for as long as possible, that is a true challenge on a Full PvP server..
Except for the part where they have 350K people banging on their door to let them play, plus probably double that of which will buy it post release who havent heard of teh game from word of mouth... Yeah, im sure the game will have 5K subs. 150-250k is more than enough to keep the game running, anymore is just surplus. They are not blizzard, they arent in this for 100+millions, they are making a fun game for gamers to enjoy, not to pad there corporate pockets.
I see this same foolishness over and over from the DF community - that Avent is producing a game out of the goodness of their hearts to cater to a small set of "hardcore" players who believe they deserve to be able to play a certain type of game. Avent isn't doing it, or cares less, for money.
Hogwash.
Avent is making this game because they believe they see a niche void that they can fill, and hope they generate enough subs from players interested in that type of niche game.
They don't love you, and aren't doing it for humanitarian reasons. They want your money. To that end, if they later determine that an alternate ruleset server will make more money for them, they'll probably do it. Additionally, if that castrates the populations of the FFA full loot servers, that's only more proof that the people who enjoy that style of game (of which I am one) are so small a minority that they really don't merit a game that takes millions to produce and thousands of other players to make fun.
Solution to me is quite simple have several servers with different rule sets. SInce with this base of players there goign be more then one game server.
Comments
The 300lbers are the WoW players who literally cry their eyes out for a videogame. The other, stable people, will not be crying when we die because we realize that this is a VIDEO GAME and losing some of your items is not the end of the world.
People who hate non-consenual PvP and full-loot play MMOs for different reasons. They play because they have no outlet for socializing and want to be their avatar with all of his shiny objects. People who enjoy non-consenual PvP enjoy a good game, they enjoy competiing in a game against real people and understand that to lose is part of the game. That's right it's a game. It's not real life. When you lose your pixels, it's not the end of the world.
One group can't handle losing in a game.
The other can.
Well, ya lost me here. Now it just boils down to the stable and the non-stable people?
Someone mentioned it earlier, it's the players themselves that ruin a full loot no-con pvp mmorpg.
DarkFall FAQ - Read then Question with Boldness
Your face is really fucked up, man.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
Ok this is a topic i had to write something for.
There are lot of people around who think DF will have no Chance cause of its Hardcore ruleset. Ok lets think about some other games. UO had this ruleset and worked until they changed it. Even Shadowbane (lots of bugs, crappy gfx) had players who liked it (i did) and haf fun playing. At this time when those game came out the market was probably 100x smaller then now. If there were only 500-1000 true PvP players at those times im sure we have about 100k interested people who would prefer such a ruleset over an other one today.
You always do say that UO became more popular after trammel? Ok but why do you think that the change in the game concept was the cause??? Couldnt it be that more people got better Internet Connections, that more people used PC for playing online? More people could afford it???
You do say this an old concept that won´t work. I´m sure this is a concept that will finally be copied by a lot of other games if Aventurine mangages to bring a stable game with the promised features.
Those items (most of them, iirc) were made unlootable/stealable before trammel. But you're right, at one time they were lootable (which I admit sucked).
And why would anyone put their runebook in a seperate pack if that made it lootable? That one was just common sense.
Either way, nobody carried a house deed around carelessly. I remember anytime someone in my guild bought a house, we all went together (just in case) to go place it. And you know what? That was pretty exciting shit for a video game.
For the purpose of this thread, we are talking about pre-1999 UO. That era of UO everything with the exception of your starter item (which was basically a class item) was lootable. That's why when you rezzed, you had a Deathrobe. Because you were literally without anything cept your under clothes.
Runebooks didn't even exist before 1999, and it was less than a year after their introduction that Trammel came into being.
To the best that I can recall, house deeds were always lootable up until the introduction of the Housing Tool. Which was also after Trammel.
As to why anyone would do anything that seems like common sense not to do? I would say, because untill something happens like that to you, or to someone you know, and if you don't care to keep up with every litle aspect of the game on a 24/7 basis, things will happen. After a few of these "suprises", people the mainstream player (even some of the ones that enjoy PvP) will decide it is not worth the effort to put another suit of armour together, or that spellbook full of spells, etc....
Which leads us to the Achilles heal of Open World, Full Loot PvP 24/7. After a while, the only ones left are the players pretty well versed in the concept. And it isn't too long before what I term the "Crocodile Syndrome" sets in. Where the adults will eat there young if hungry. I.E. Felucca.
Will Darkfall fail? I don't know. Personally, I don't feel that it will be able to support itself in today's economy without having mass market appeal in some way.
I'll give it a shot when/if it launches in the US. Untill then, I'll just stand in the road and kick it in.
I guess to me that is kinda the thing. People did stupid things or didn't know any better and paid the price. To be honest my first 30 days in UO were going to be my last 30 days. Then some people tried to talk to me.. my reaction literally was.. screw it if they are trying to snoop me I don't have anything left..
Ended up making friends... forming what we called a guild (obviously guild stones weren't in the game yet but..) and even tho all those people (except 2) were gone by the summer of 98... UO is the MMO I played the longest with no breaks.. 5 years or close enough to it.
Honestly after a while I don't even remember being attacked by a pk and this was before the murder penalties really started kicking in. I never was one to eat my young either... when everyone else was saying "target me and hit.." I don't even remember the auto attack key ... you know then they'd all point and laugh while they looted the "noob".
I was the moron showing people how to make money so they would stop begging for it.
UO had a great community.. I mean there was a group to hang out with for everyone.. right down to the outright aholes.
And ya when I placed our "guild" tower in very early 1998.. dunno how we found a spot big enough. You better believe we were expecting to be attacked every minute.. altho I think we had close to 30 people out at the time.
To me that probably was a lot of it.. but there wasn't as many people playing then compared to today either. I'm not so sure you can find those isolated areas any more.. I guess maybe we'll find out altho I really haven't been to happy with any of the open pvp games I've tried since then.
The sheer volume of "good" and/or "bad" things you could do in UO... was what made it a great game imho. It wasn't just a game of griefing.. but it sure did happen. Friday night fights in Oasis desert on Sonoma for the most part were pretty calm. (yes I said.. for the most part...)
Don't get me wrong. I played UO from release untill shortly after AoS. Enjoyed every minute of it. Gave it another go in early 2007 for 6 months or so. Ummm, Ninjas and Samurais? Nope, not for me...
But as to the OT, there is a reason Felucca is a ghost town, and yes, it is called Trammel. But not for the reasons that the hardcore PvP folks charge...
DarkFall FAQ - Read then Question with Boldness
The adrenaline rush of early days UO for me have been unmatched in any game since. I sure hope Darkfall can deliver some of that.
I ran UO solo big into the exploring and crafting etc. All this fuss on full loot, yes it sucks if you lose it all. But most of that is avoidable/manageable.
Never carry more than your willing to lose.
It all gets crunched down to gold coin and is safe in the bank.
Very quickly everybody and I mean everybody will have lost more good gear than they care to remember. So everybody in the game is running around semi naked or in some crap first edition full set.
Run faster than the other guy(s)zerg(s)faction(s) work on your mad stamina skillz.
All the gankers will become the ganked in a never ending vicious cycle and the real bandits in the game will be the outrageously rich and famous crafters making and selling nothing but crap full first edition armour/weapon sets.
Darkfall would have to be so extreme as everyone plays just to be red flagged then I would consider the OP as having a decent point.
It consistently amazes me the amount of speculation that happens within any forum before a game's release. Thread after thread of this constant bickering, all because of one little system vs. another. Can't you guys just get over it all? Preference is preference, and none of your preferences make you special. Ever.
With that being said, I can't see why this game could not accompany both rulesets. Honestly, it doesn't take much for a developer to turn off full loot in one server. Hell, I know that I will be trying the game myself, and I would find it a shame if I found it was too inhabited by dumb griefers and gankers, yet liked the game otherwise.
A lot of you also seem to have the notion that g&g'ers seem to only be found alone. While this may be a majority thing, that certainly does not rule out groups of them. I have seen it before in games like Lineage 2, and if you find them in one game, you will surely find them in another. One ganker usually amounts to nothing in the end, but a guild of them can make your life miserable if you cross them.
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
We are the customers. And the customer is always right, or have you forgotten this old, but very true adage of business?
Of course its not to be taken literally, but what it does mean is that if you want people to buy your product, you'll build it to fit their needs, and not your own.
Which is why people have been making things to appeal to the largest subset of the consumer base, such as pop music, mainstream movies, fast food.
And then there's the niche market, which some mfg's chose to cater to and to which Aventurine clearly falls into.
It does not make the Developers right, or wrong, just the target market they chose to go after.
Personally, I think they should have built a game a la the EVE model, where safer areas in the game exist for the more PVE oriented player can enjoy the game, but game mechanics encourage them to foray into the PVP zones to interact with (aka risk being ganked) those who prefer pvp.
I don't think they have though, and I think they'll suffer for it. IMO most of the supporters of the hardcore pvp model will be disappointed when their favorite targets, the carebears aren't around for easy kills, and all they have to fight are people like themselves.
Many (not all) gankers are really not interested in a fair fight against an opponent, and they'll be the most disappointed of all the gamers in DF.
But, its a concept worth exploring, and only time (and an actual release) will tell whether the FFA full loot mechanic works for DF.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
I'm sure both stories are quite true. Over in EVE we constantly have stories of people carrying 6 or 7 billion ISK worth of blueprints or implants in a totally defenseless shuttle, going into AFK travel mode (instead of the much safer warp to zero, attended mode) and losing all of their stuff.
Never underestimate the stupidity of the player trying to save time in a pvp looting type game. (Or the ingenuity of the player or scammer who is trying to separate the fools from their money.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well it is a full loot FFA PvP game...
Though that said one on the recent "leaks" stated you can carry loads of armor in your inventory... wheher this incurs any penalities remains to be seen.
The is also rumblings of a global banking system. Whats the point of that ? Was not the whole idea that transporting goods around could be a part of meangful PvP via banditry. People will just bank horde.
So I am beginning to suspect yes this game is FFA PvP.. but intelligent FFA PvP. I think *if* I ever touch the game.. that the second hurdle will be level of intelligence requird to play. NO sirree this i not sounding like a fantasy Eve at all.
All the people whining about ganking will be the first to pre-order and play the game. Then cancel after getting ganked the first time.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
out of topic, your GIF made me Laugh
Imo anyone who enjoyed...
- UO (hundreds of thousands have touched it before Trammel, thousands of Felucca-only players still exist)
- Lineage (the first MMO in number of accounts before WoW success stories had full loot)
- Runescape (hundred of thousands played before pvp changes)
- EVE (250k players, still have full loot but now with very protected zones)
- Shadowbane (more than 100k have played, now population is small, but the game still exist)
- AC on Darktide (don't now if it still exists)
- EQ1 on Zek Servers (ganking in a PvE game + corpse camping with need of CR, an huge death penalty and partial looting is rather "worse" than full loot IMO). I even think most players who enjoyed blue EQ1 pre-luclin when the game was really hard may as well support an hardcore PvP game. Losing stuff, or losing xp + doing CRs are finally not that different, it's mainly supporting huge timesinks when you fail.
- or even people who liked WoW *before BGs* on a PvP server (ah the joys of being ganked, greykilled, corpse camped... The WoWers now have a carebear image, but I think people should remember how WoW was between the creation of the honor system and the implementation of instancied PvP, I'm sure the players who had the balls to play horde in this era may enjoy any hardcore pvp game as well)
(etc...etc...)
... have the masochistic NDA needed for darkfall.
It's a potential player base of several hundred of thousands not counting lost carebears, and most of these guys have been pissed by the "dumbing-down" of their games (or the disappearance/desertification of their specialized PvP servers).
So I think having hardcore PvP rules is what may make Darkfall a success more than what may explain an eventual failure (Darkfall, may fail for an hundred reasons, but I don't see the choice of an hardcore pvp system as one of them)
I'm sure there will be people who don't play or quit due to being looted, but I don't believe it'll make or break them. Sure they won't make as much money as they could, but if they got rid of full loot (even on 1 server) they would be going against everything they designed the game for.
You referenced UO pre-trammel as a bad thing, but really it was the best the game ever was. Sure the subscriptions went up after trammel, but what mmorpg (at that point) didn't see a growth after an expansion. The jump in subscriptions wasn't that much more than the previous jump when T2A was released. I know many people that came back to UO not because of the ruleset on Trammel but because they could build there, as Felucca didn't have any space left.
Furthermore, the looting in UO was not a bad thing. On average (probably around 80-90% of the time) if you died in UO and were looted; you only lost an hour of time at most. The other 10-20% of the time, when players lost something substantial, it was nobody's fault but the player who lost the items. If a player lost a house deed or anything major, they had nobody to blame but themselves. Same is true about magical or rare equipment, you didn't need to use that to be competitive so your only loss was a bit of pride (if you take pride in digital items).
Even more to the point, most of the mindless Griefers in UO were players who had alternate characters they could play. This won't be possible in DF, unless they are willing to buy another copy of the game and a 2nd subscription. Sure it won't eliminate those types of players, but it'll probably drastically lower the number of them.
Finally, the devs of DF have stated many times that items in DF will not be huge deal. If a player dies and loses his equipment so what? Go out and get more. Much like UO, I doubt players will lose much more than an hour of work in game, unless they are stupid (transporting large amounts of something w/o protection).
If they need to do anything, it'll be to make adjustments to the alignment system.
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
lol
That story has to be bullshit. Who the fuck carried 2 weeks of items on them? They'd have to be retarded.
I took 2 weeks of gold from someone in UO once. I didnt do it by ganking them, I did it by impersonating a banker.
If you don't think that is hysterically funny, maybe darkfall isn't for you.
Ummm...
Didnt everyone just walk upto a bank and say *bank* to get thier lockbox to open?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Same BS arguments being thrown around.
1) UO was marketed as an MMORPG and only that. There was no talk of PVP, PVE, Raids, or any of that new MMO jargon. It was a huge melting pot. UO separated PVPers from PVEers. Current MMO's know this and target a specific audience. If you end up in a game that does not fit your play style it is YOUR fault.
2) Alternate ruleset servers are NOT the best of both worlds. A game has to built from the ground up to be one or the other. Ever fight a player in WOW that is 30 levels higher than you? Yay, what fun.
3) Saying that all other PVP MMOs and PvP servers have failed, therefore Darkfall will fail is pure ignorance. UO see (1), PvP servers see (2). Shadowbane was a piece of crap technically. No matter how good conceptually, if a game doesn't run properly, people will not play it.
I love pvp and the full looting aspect. However, I think a lot of the PvP will calm down after the first bit. At least players that plan on killing others of their race. I think eventually the 3 factions will take more priority than killing others of your own race, and will leave our own central locations relatively safe. Venturing further out will require planning, but fo those crafter types, staying close to your own city or better still, clancity will be viable. Venturing further would most likely be more of a group effort. Eventually there should be invisable lines players will know when not to go across while alone for instance. Uo did not have that in fel, there was no common enemy to pull away from PK'ing so it was a little too "every man for himself". I think it will level out after awhile.
False choice. A game can be built from the ground up to be both PvP and PvE. Enough companies have tried it now to know what the pitfalls are. It's just a matter of time until someone does it right. Obviously Darkfall won't be that game. Alternate ruleset servers can also work if done properly. I doubt Darkfall has enough PvE to fall into that category either.
With most things in life there are tradeoffs. Sure it could be built to have both but it will not excel at both. Current PvE games are focussed on character advancement and itemization. These create dramatic character imbalances that give large advantages to timeplayed. Conversely, PvP builds minimize those traits which means that PvE oriented players get bored.
Alternate ruleset servers mean that the developers have to consider additional restraints as well as divert resources from one ruleset to the other. As in they have to consider how PvE addons and improvements will impact PvP. That is time they could have been building more zones, mobs, quests, items, etc if they did not have to worry about the alternate ruleset. Developers do not have unlimited resources.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and mine is that your argument that it is just a matter of time until someone gets it right is simple wishful thinking. If it is so easy then how would you do it without unlimited resources.
All I hear from you sir is
"IM TRYING WAAAAY TOO HARD"
Just thought i'd let you know
rolls eyes.
Because they are interested in offering a ffa pvp game precisly because there aren't many of them out there.
There is NOTHING wrong with that. Nothing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Those 350k could be wanting to play it for all the wrong reasons also. I'm sure theres quite a few people who think this game is going to play out the way they want it to. Then to find out it's not what they wanted and leave the game. Retention rate is what will make or break Darkfall. And the OP does have a point, full loot PvP is not something alot of people enjoy. You can look at any game that offers both PvP and PvE and see which one has more people per server. And to sit here and think Aventurine does not want to make millions off Darkfall is stupid. Any company wants to make the most out of thier product. Just because Tasos said so, doesn't mean the investors say so. Behind every game company is atleast one greedy investor. The whole, only having a certain people at launch, is only because that is what they can afford. Once they start to gain profit, see a high retention rate after the first month, and see the pre-orders pickup thier copy, you can bet you will see more servers and more dollars in there pocket. You think once they reach a certain point, they are going to say, "No guys, no more cash please, we have enough. We don't want to take your cash. We just wanted a fun game for you to enjoy." Doubtful, very doubtful. Darkfall won't be the second coming of christ. It won't be the next WoW and it will be lucky to survive in a land full of clones. Why, you ask. Because even with all its claimed inovativeness, it still has one set of rules. Full Loot PvP. And people like many choices, not just one.
For all you Darkfall fans who want this game to succeed. I would suggest getting people to see whats great about full loot pvp instead of pushing people out the door. Your only hurting your community by doing this. And to sit here with an elitist attitude and not care about it will only make this game have less subs. Remember, the best marketing is viral marketing. Show them whats great instead of the random, "No one cares, you can leave" posts. And yes it can get redundant, but if you care about this game, It shouldnt matter.
How are we hurting our community? We know what we want already. We know that there are a lot of people out there who will love it as well. And ultimately.. some that done. How is that any different from any game?
I'm sure you'll get your one or two PvE servers. That's usually how it works. But to say that they are more populated is downright insane.. especially that in most games.. there are only like.. 5% of the servers that do PVE only.
If you don't like the game, then go play something else.. you have plenty to choose from.
Then explain why in the history of MMOs with PvP servers, why are those (the PvP) servers the first to be merged?
First of all..Give us some proof of this
For example; When EQ2 introduced PvP servers they FAST became the most popular servers in the game..
I*m guessing thou that this has something to do with the fact that they introduced PvP 2 years after release and the population demanded something extra to spice up gameplay in EQ2, and It was a true success when the servers opened..
Secondly, yes you may be right in your guessings thou, PvP has always had less players than PvE, but my guess is that most of them simply do not know what they are missing, in a fun a strategic sort of way a NPC can never give you the same challenge to that of a real human opponent...
This is the challenge most would be after when entering Darkfalls world, and all of them also(Hopefully) knows that they will be killed, looted and again again and again, until a good strategy arise and they can revenge these players for what they did..Or some play just to be able to stay out of trouble for as long as possible, that is a true challenge on a Full PvP server..
/junker
I see this same foolishness over and over from the DF community - that Avent is producing a game out of the goodness of their hearts to cater to a small set of "hardcore" players who believe they deserve to be able to play a certain type of game. Avent isn't doing it, or cares less, for money.
Hogwash.
Avent is making this game because they believe they see a niche void that they can fill, and hope they generate enough subs from players interested in that type of niche game.
They don't love you, and aren't doing it for humanitarian reasons. They want your money. To that end, if they later determine that an alternate ruleset server will make more money for them, they'll probably do it. Additionally, if that castrates the populations of the FFA full loot servers, that's only more proof that the people who enjoy that style of game (of which I am one) are so small a minority that they really don't merit a game that takes millions to produce and thousands of other players to make fun.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Solution to me is quite simple have several servers with different rule sets. SInce with this base of players there goign be more then one game server.