MDY (glider's company) hired extremely good lawyers as well as Blizzard. As a good friend of mine summarized for me a while back, this case is not just against glider, but almost all programmers. This case is about keeping a virtual copy of wow.exe in the ram, in order to break the ToS. If blizzard were to win, it would mean that ANY program that may peek into WoW.exe, which ALOT do, and blizzard deems against the ToS, they could sue them.
For example, if Firefox peeped into WoW.exe (for some reason), and Blizzard didnt like it... They could sue firefox. This is not just up against hypothetical things either... as Anti-viruses (of course) do things like glider does. What is stopping them from sueing them? Nothing.
Blizzard won't be the only company able to do this. Any will, which will create a bunch of greedy bastards who will sue for money, which could turn into mass caos.
Now, if a developer ever makes a good sandbox+skill based game, like SWG used to be or UO or Asheron's call, then I won't be bored enough to bot because like SWG, there was tons of stuff to do and a lot of freedom and not some linear gameplay. I have a much higher incentive to not bot in those style games.
Funny thing that.. People have these rose colored glasses about pre-CU SWG. I remember playing back then.. it was plaguied with bots.. people botting to get skill boxes (especially notorious when the holocrons for unlocking jedi came out, yet another reason I ignored the pre pub-9 jedi elitists) was rampant.
Seriously,, how many of you can remember people charging so much money an hour to either tumble over and over while a someone healed their action pool, or charged to be the doctor who did the healing, or charged to be the person who healed the healer's mind bar.
Let's be completely honest with ourselves. Any MMO.. literally ANY MMO will have cheaters of some sort. be it speed hackers, glitch-exploiters, those failures at life who use a gold-farmer's services (since I use chinese names for characters, I often get confused with gold-farmers and have had people trying to ask me my prices, or even ask me why I haven't delivered), and following the goldfarmers, people too lazy to do their own work and thus use botting software
Let's go even further and say there are going to be many viewpoints. There are going to be those that justify them with various levels of moral or ethical arguement, from "WoW has destroyed lives, so why should I do blizzard's bidding" to just plain "I'm too lazy to do my own work and really don't care about things like the law or the EULA I have to click to accept every time I log in"
I myself admit to having used unauthorized UI mods in the past (FFXI and Windower, but that's because I NEEDED alt-tab functionality), so I can't really say people who bot are scum, but I do justify this by the fact that I still did my own work, fought my own fights, earned my own stripes.
Regardless, moral arguements aside, there is one simple thing. You agree to play by blizzards terms every time you load up WoW (never read that EULA you click through? you really should sometime, for your own sake), and they are perfectly within their rights to ban you for breaking their rules. Argue as much as you like.. every time you click 'accept' before logging into the game, you are assumed to have agreed to the whole EULA, and law tends to take a very dim view of the "I didn't read it so I didn't know it was a crime" defense.
EDIT: Yes, I knew what I was doing in FFXI (namely, using windower for the convenience of alt-tabbing out to FAQ's) was against the rules and I knew I was tempting fate as far as the banhammer. I hear the game has a windowed mode built in now so no more need of said software if I ever go back.
Now, if a developer ever makes a good sandbox+skill based game, like SWG used to be or UO or Asheron's call, then I won't be bored enough to bot because like SWG, there was tons of stuff to do and a lot of freedom and not some linear gameplay. I have a much higher incentive to not bot in those style games.
Funny thing that.. People have these rose colored glasses about pre-CU SWG. I remember playing back then.. it was plaguied with bots.. people botting to get skill boxes (especially notorious when the holocrons for unlocking jedi came out, yet another reason I ignored the pre pub-9 jedi elitists) was rampant.
Seriously,, how many of you can remember people charging so much money an hour to either tumble over and over while a someone healed their action pool, or charged to be the doctor who did the healing, or charged to be the person who healed the healer's mind bar.
Let's be completely honest with ourselves. Any MMO.. literally ANY MMO will have cheaters of some sort. be it speed hackers, glitch-exploiters, those failures at life who use a gold-farmer's services (since I use chinese names for characters, I often get confused with gold-farmers and have had people trying to ask me my prices, or even ask me why I haven't delivered), and following the goldfarmers, people too lazy to do their own work and thus use botting software
Let's go even further and say there are going to be many viewpoints. There are going to be those that justify them with various levels of moral or ethical arguement, from "WoW has destroyed lives, so why should I do blizzard's bidding" to just plain "I'm too lazy to do my own work and really don't care about things like the law or the EULA I have to click to accept every time I log in"
I myself admit to having used unauthorized UI mods in the past (FFXI and Windower, but that's because I NEEDED alt-tab functionality), so I can't really say people who bot are scum, but I do justify this by the fact that I still did my own work, fought my own fights, earned my own stripes.
Regardless, moral arguements aside, there is one simple thing. You agree to play by blizzards terms every time you load up WoW (never read that EULA you click through? you really should sometime, for your own sake), and they are perfectly within their rights to ban you for breaking their rules. Argue as much as you like.. every time you click 'accept' before logging into the game, you are assumed to have agreed to the whole EULA, and law tends to take a very dim view of the "I didn't read it so I didn't know it was a crime" defense.
EDIT: Yes, I knew what I was doing in FFXI (namely, using windower for the convenience of alt-tabbing out to FAQ's) was against the rules and I knew I was tempting fate as far as the banhammer. I hear the game has a windowed mode built in now so no more need of said software if I ever go back.
And as a botter, of course they have the legal right to ban us, but that is not the thing in question here. Glider's company (MDY) is being sued by blizzard for basically peeking into WoW.exe to do things against the ToS.
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
That court's decision was not the final one. Do your research first. They repealed it to a higher circuit of court (the 9th im pretty sure). I posted this in one of my earlier posts, telling me that you did not read =P
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
That court's decision was not the final one. Do your research first. They repealed it to a higher circuit of court (the 9th im pretty sure). I posted this in one of my earlier posts, telling me that you did not read =P
Yes I did read that, and that decision is a final one until the appeal is heard and ruled. That is whay it's called an appeal, they are trying to "overturn" the decision. Do you not understand the legal system? Anyway, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to tell me what I've read and stop crying about a decision that a court has already made. It seems that you have a serious issue with this decision and you should have yourself checked by an appropriate professional who can help you understand your issue.
no clue what your talking about with my "issue"... but how is it the Final (defined as "concluding: occurring at or forming an end or termination;") when it is not the "end" of the case entirely? Whats the point of having another trial if there is nothing that can be done since its a FINAL decision huh?
But I'm done arguing. I posted to get my point across, and I did. Not worth arguing on the internet since "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded."
no clue what your talking about with my "issue"... but how is it the Final (defined as "concluding: occurring at or forming an end or termination;") when it is not the "end" of the case entirely? Whats the point of having another trial if there is nothing that can be done since its a FINAL decision huh?
But I'm done arguing. I posted to get my point across, and I did. Not worth arguing on the internet since "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded."
Thanks for trying to support yourself in your definition of conclusion. You are too predictable and I knew you would turn to a definition to try to support your case. In this situation, until the decision that has been made is overturned, it is considered final/concluded. This is just like a parent making a decision and the child not liking it so they go to the other parent to get a different decision to overturn the other parent. So, unless the other parent overturns the 1st parents decision, that decision was final. Now that decision may not be able to be enacted because of the appeal, but it is still final until the appeal is heard. Your issue that I am referring to is the fact you keep crying about a court's decision. If you can't live with that decision and you have to keep trying to say it's not right and MDY's code doesn't do this or that, then that is the issue you should have yourself checked for. I also appreciate your inference that I am retarded, by your statement above, then that also includes you as well. I to am done arguing this with you. That leaves us both in a retarded state.
Gosh people need to stop crying over stupid things...just read the whole 7 pages and I can't stop laughing....how stupid can one be. People are just trying to find bad things about Blizzard because they "hate blizzard for banning my account because I used to bot" or whatever.
So what Blizzard is sueing MDY for "peeking in WoW.exe" ?. Who actually cares? Is the only thing you can say is that now blizzard will try to sue everyone to make money everytime they peek in WoW.exe ..... how dumb must one be to think this. Blizzard would never do such stupid things. The whole point of sueing the bot company was to:
1- Remove most bots in the game
2- Scare future bot makers
3- Scare potential bot users
I don't think we should actually care about how MDY was sued. From the moment they broke ToU, it's already over. Blizzard can use the technique they want to make sure MDY is closed. Who cares if people see it as "unfair" ....QQ MORE! MDY will hopefully shut down after the final verdict during the appeal, Blizzard will hopefully get his hand on bot users list and ban them. DONE. WoW will be one of the cleanest games when it comes to botting. Only thing that will remain are the gold farmers but if I remember, some players sued one of the gold farmers company last year. Never had any news about it though. Still, they're way easier to take care of.
Beside, I really doubt Blizzard would do anything stupid like sueing a company for peeking into WoW.exe if it isn't for botting. Otherwise Blizzard would've sued xFire long ago.....Keep it real please.
$50 WoW $40 BC $40 WLK $780 Sub from release $910 total and I still don't "own" this software? Fuck you Blizzard. The ramifactions from this are a lot bigger then "stopping people from cheating and breaking ToU." What if it was illegal to use adblock in your firefox extension? Or if it was illegal to use lets say, homebrew apps on your 360? Who the hell knows what this ruling could snowball into. I never used a bot, but if someone wants to use them on a piece of software they spent almost $1000 on, that's fine. It isn't "hacking" at all. Bots can't give you gamebreaking powers. A bot is nothing but a bunch of complicated macros in it's most basic form. That's it.
you own the software, but you dont own the servers they run on. Their servers, their rules. You break em, you are restricted access onto their servers.
No, Blizzard's argument was that players aren’t owners but merely software licensees.
The Court ultimately held that:
"Blizzard owns a valid copyright in the game client software, Blizzard has granted a limited license for WoW players to use the software, use of the software with Glider falls outside the scope of the license established in section 4 of the TOU, use of Glider includes copying to RAM within the meaning of section 106 of the Copyright Act, users of WoW and Glider are not entitled to a section 117 defense, and Glider users therefore infringe Blizzard’s copyright. MDY does not dispute that the other requirements for contributory and vicarious copyright infringement are met, nor has MDY established a misuse defense. The Court accordingly will grant summary judgment in favor of Blizzard with respect to liability on the contributory and vicarious copyright infringement claims in Counts II and III."
Section 117 states an owner of software has a right to copy it if that copy is essential to the customer’s use of the software.
Blizzard cant say you can or cant install or "copy" WoW onto your computer. The only power they have is to ban your account and restrict access onto their servers. Using glider was/is a bannable offense, so instead of just banning accounts they went after the makers of the program to fix the problem altogether. Like i said earlier, if you dont like their rules, dont play on their servers or their game.
Blizzard CAN say that you can't install or copy WoW, that's what the court just found. The thing is, these guys who cheated, who used glider, can be sued for copyright infringement and Blizz will win. Precedence has been set.
unless they put a DRM on the WoW client, they dont have the power to stop people from using that WoW client. And even still people can find work a rounds. This means nothing for blizzard as far as telling people they cannot install their software on people's computers since they cant do anything to enforce it or anything really. Unless as you say they can sue the people but ..... i mean really that would take too much time and resources to be bothered with doing.
Here's the thing, they're doing it. They are requesting a list of all people who purchased Glider.
Is the list they want so they can sue these people or ban them? BIG difference there.
Maybe Blizzard wouldn't but they blew the doors open for another company to if the the repeal fails. A legal precedent is being set that is outside the scope of WoW.
A lot of you guys don't seem to realize this hurts legitimate software owners, as well as people who abuse it.
I sure hope Firefox won't sue AVG for my personal information since they're peaking into Firefox's ram space.
As I said in the other thread, this is a bad thing. Basically this finding rules that we, the comsumer, do not own our copies of the games, but rather lease them. On top of that, it has someone twisted it to the point that a breech of contract is no longer a violation of contract law but, rather, a breech of copyright law which will hold much heavier and severe fines. Celebrate all you want, but this just set a major precedence for MMO companies to further hammer you intot he ground legally if they want to. What's to stop Blizz now from saying that all those people who were banned because they found AIM or some such running in the background broke copyright law and sue them?
1. Welcome to the world of copyright. It has been, for a long time, that you do not own that film on your dvd disc, or the music tracks on your new britney album, that's the law.
2. There is a world of difference between the end user breaking the ToS / Copyright laws in his/her house for "fun" and a company/person selling/distributing a product that breaks copyright and ToS.
I find this ruling a great decission and so grats to blizz, gratz to the ordinary end user, and a BIG FU to all you sad low life bot running, cheating cry babies .
Funny. I thought this whole issue was about Glider breaking the EULA. This prove the EULA is useless legally so they had to figure some other way to get them, by claiming copyright infringement. How is Glider breaching copyright by inserting itself into wow.exe?
Most of the programs I have running in the background right now interfere with eachother. My antivirus is constantly checking every file in ram, my spyware blocker is checking every webpage I open, with all them activex controls and so on, Firefox is blocking ads, even from this site and by that interfering with how the page is supposed to be looked at. I often run an ip blocker cause of certain moneygrabbing idiots not to be mentioned here. Can you say slippery slope? I sure as hell can.
The court's decision opened up (unintentionally I guess) for alot of greedy idiots to sure for interfering with their programs.
I still see botters as cheaters though, and I want them banned from my mmo's, just not by claiming the botters break the copyright of the mmo. Not to mention breaking copyright is a criminal offense. So if I use a bot, I'm suddenly a criminal now? To hell with that...
Botting is a crime against gaming. I dont think this will set a massive precedent tho, blizz likely only won due to have the legal whammy (lots of dosh) to keep it up. I dont think they even went after the guy for money just to send a message, dont fuck with our game!
I'm glad they won, maybe less cyber criminals will infect our precious games now. Cheat in single player games if your that bad. Just dont bother playing mmos if you have to cheat, or atleast consider you may be playing the wrong game if you are botting.
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
I got tired of reading the useless crap after 3rd page, anyhow..
Botting doesn't really matter if it doesn't affect the gaming community but it does. Botting and gold selling comes hand in hand, the gold farmers don't just sit there all day and kill shit over and over for the drops. They bot it, you also usually get power leveling offers along with the gold spam as well and this is also a product of botters. It ruins game, it affects the game economy, gives people an unfair advantage over people who play the game the way it was intended to be played. Bots have become a plague on the MMO world, anyone see the post for Aion and how many bots there were? It's ridiculous.
People who use bots for personal use... not really that big of a deal, though I think it's pretty stupid to pay for a program so it plays the game you pay for.. if you don't like the grind, go play something else.'
GJ to Blizzard and their legal team
PS: Blizzard isn't going to go around sueing everyone, it's costly and the bums they sued wouldn't be able to pay it. The big thing about this lawsuit is that it tries to prevent people from profitting off their product.
sychotix: it's unlikely that Blizzard is gonna go on a sueing spree because programs are peaking into WoW.exe. those programs you listed scan files without bias, Glider is program with one thing in mind...
People who hate botters are just buthurt over the fact that botting removes the false sense of achomplishment people get for sitting on their buts and pressing a button 6 million times in a row as if it took any skill to do so. thus futher making them look like an idoit because the hated it all along. Too many people in MMOs want to feel like what they are doing means something
Maybe you should go play those 2 F2P games (can't recall names of them atm)That have in game bot program.
MDY (glider's company) hired extremely good lawyers as well as Blizzard. As a good friend of mine summarized for me a while back, this case is not just against glider, but almost all programmers. This case is about keeping a virtual copy of wow.exe in the ram, in order to break the ToS. If blizzard were to win, it would mean that ANY program that may peek into WoW.exe, which ALOT do, and blizzard deems against the ToS, they could sue them.
For example, if Firefox peeped into WoW.exe (for some reason), and Blizzard didnt like it... They could sue firefox. This is not just up against hypothetical things either... as Anti-viruses (of course) do things like glider does. What is stopping them from sueing them? Nothing.
Blizzard won't be the only company able to do this. Any will, which will create a bunch of greedy bastards who will sue for money, which could turn into mass caos.
Now you see why i'm rooting for MDY?
MDY(Glider)is a bot program used exclusively to disrupt gameplay of others legitimently playing the game,so if they lose it won't effect anyone else unless there doing something simular like your examples of Firefox and or a anti-virus program.
I am sure that these established companies have good enough lawyers too that if say Firefox need some code access to a Blizzards game that they would ask to be allowed to do so or pay a fee to be allowed to do so.
Comments
Like i said i would hate to be a defendant against blizzards lawyers....
lol
MDY (glider's company) hired extremely good lawyers as well as Blizzard. As a good friend of mine summarized for me a while back, this case is not just against glider, but almost all programmers. This case is about keeping a virtual copy of wow.exe in the ram, in order to break the ToS. If blizzard were to win, it would mean that ANY program that may peek into WoW.exe, which ALOT do, and blizzard deems against the ToS, they could sue them.
For example, if Firefox peeped into WoW.exe (for some reason), and Blizzard didnt like it... They could sue firefox. This is not just up against hypothetical things either... as Anti-viruses (of course) do things like glider does. What is stopping them from sueing them? Nothing.
Blizzard won't be the only company able to do this. Any will, which will create a bunch of greedy bastards who will sue for money, which could turn into mass caos.
Now you see why i'm rooting for MDY?
Funny thing that.. People have these rose colored glasses about pre-CU SWG. I remember playing back then.. it was plaguied with bots.. people botting to get skill boxes (especially notorious when the holocrons for unlocking jedi came out, yet another reason I ignored the pre pub-9 jedi elitists) was rampant.
Seriously,, how many of you can remember people charging so much money an hour to either tumble over and over while a someone healed their action pool, or charged to be the doctor who did the healing, or charged to be the person who healed the healer's mind bar.
Let's be completely honest with ourselves. Any MMO.. literally ANY MMO will have cheaters of some sort. be it speed hackers, glitch-exploiters, those failures at life who use a gold-farmer's services (since I use chinese names for characters, I often get confused with gold-farmers and have had people trying to ask me my prices, or even ask me why I haven't delivered), and following the goldfarmers, people too lazy to do their own work and thus use botting software
Let's go even further and say there are going to be many viewpoints. There are going to be those that justify them with various levels of moral or ethical arguement, from "WoW has destroyed lives, so why should I do blizzard's bidding" to just plain "I'm too lazy to do my own work and really don't care about things like the law or the EULA I have to click to accept every time I log in"
I myself admit to having used unauthorized UI mods in the past (FFXI and Windower, but that's because I NEEDED alt-tab functionality), so I can't really say people who bot are scum, but I do justify this by the fact that I still did my own work, fought my own fights, earned my own stripes.
Regardless, moral arguements aside, there is one simple thing. You agree to play by blizzards terms every time you load up WoW (never read that EULA you click through? you really should sometime, for your own sake), and they are perfectly within their rights to ban you for breaking their rules. Argue as much as you like.. every time you click 'accept' before logging into the game, you are assumed to have agreed to the whole EULA, and law tends to take a very dim view of the "I didn't read it so I didn't know it was a crime" defense.
EDIT: Yes, I knew what I was doing in FFXI (namely, using windower for the convenience of alt-tabbing out to FAQ's) was against the rules and I knew I was tempting fate as far as the banhammer. I hear the game has a windowed mode built in now so no more need of said software if I ever go back.
Funny thing that.. People have these rose colored glasses about pre-CU SWG. I remember playing back then.. it was plaguied with bots.. people botting to get skill boxes (especially notorious when the holocrons for unlocking jedi came out, yet another reason I ignored the pre pub-9 jedi elitists) was rampant.
Seriously,, how many of you can remember people charging so much money an hour to either tumble over and over while a someone healed their action pool, or charged to be the doctor who did the healing, or charged to be the person who healed the healer's mind bar.
Let's be completely honest with ourselves. Any MMO.. literally ANY MMO will have cheaters of some sort. be it speed hackers, glitch-exploiters, those failures at life who use a gold-farmer's services (since I use chinese names for characters, I often get confused with gold-farmers and have had people trying to ask me my prices, or even ask me why I haven't delivered), and following the goldfarmers, people too lazy to do their own work and thus use botting software
Let's go even further and say there are going to be many viewpoints. There are going to be those that justify them with various levels of moral or ethical arguement, from "WoW has destroyed lives, so why should I do blizzard's bidding" to just plain "I'm too lazy to do my own work and really don't care about things like the law or the EULA I have to click to accept every time I log in"
I myself admit to having used unauthorized UI mods in the past (FFXI and Windower, but that's because I NEEDED alt-tab functionality), so I can't really say people who bot are scum, but I do justify this by the fact that I still did my own work, fought my own fights, earned my own stripes.
Regardless, moral arguements aside, there is one simple thing. You agree to play by blizzards terms every time you load up WoW (never read that EULA you click through? you really should sometime, for your own sake), and they are perfectly within their rights to ban you for breaking their rules. Argue as much as you like.. every time you click 'accept' before logging into the game, you are assumed to have agreed to the whole EULA, and law tends to take a very dim view of the "I didn't read it so I didn't know it was a crime" defense.
EDIT: Yes, I knew what I was doing in FFXI (namely, using windower for the convenience of alt-tabbing out to FAQ's) was against the rules and I knew I was tempting fate as far as the banhammer. I hear the game has a windowed mode built in now so no more need of said software if I ever go back.
And as a botter, of course they have the legal right to ban us, but that is not the thing in question here. Glider's company (MDY) is being sued by blizzard for basically peeking into WoW.exe to do things against the ToS.
All of these arguments are irrelevant. The rules are clearly defined to us by Blizzard when we sign up to play. Those of us who choose not follow those rules do so at our own risk. That does not in turn give us the right to bitch about how Blizzard protects themselves when those rules are violated. This is how people think. I'll break the rules and then say it wasn't fair after the fact. Grow up people. People broke rules, now the result of that is the rulings by the court and anything that follows. You bitching about it on this forum will not change anything. Play the game the way we signed up to play it and this thread wouldn't have any need for existing.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
That court's decision was not the final one. Do your research first. They repealed it to a higher circuit of court (the 9th im pretty sure). I posted this in one of my earlier posts, telling me that you did not read =P
Yay, another ignorant person who did not read anything that was said.
As i said before, yes, botters break the rules and know they have the chance to get banned and cannot do anything about it. We agree to a Terms of SERVICE, which we break, and our SERVICE is cut. Nowhere in the EULA or ToS states that you are not allowed to create third party programs. Blizzards whole case is the fact that Glider (a third party program) allows users to break this EULA/ToS and the methods they do it. Also, Glider is not circumventing blizzards protection (Warden). It is simply hiding itself as a rootkit. Warden tries to detect that rootkit.
Yay, another ignorant person who thinks they know that I didn't read all 6 pages of this thread. It doesn't matter whether you agree that they should be banned or this or that. What matters, is you are still trying to defend people like MDY with how thier code runs. This in turn puts you into the crowd of people bitching about it. The court has ruled, live with it.
That court's decision was not the final one. Do your research first. They repealed it to a higher circuit of court (the 9th im pretty sure). I posted this in one of my earlier posts, telling me that you did not read =P
Yes I did read that, and that decision is a final one until the appeal is heard and ruled. That is whay it's called an appeal, they are trying to "overturn" the decision. Do you not understand the legal system? Anyway, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to tell me what I've read and stop crying about a decision that a court has already made. It seems that you have a serious issue with this decision and you should have yourself checked by an appropriate professional who can help you understand your issue.
no clue what your talking about with my "issue"... but how is it the Final (defined as "concluding: occurring at or forming an end or termination;") when it is not the "end" of the case entirely? Whats the point of having another trial if there is nothing that can be done since its a FINAL decision huh?
But I'm done arguing. I posted to get my point across, and I did. Not worth arguing on the internet since "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you are still retarded."
Thanks for trying to support yourself in your definition of conclusion. You are too predictable and I knew you would turn to a definition to try to support your case. In this situation, until the decision that has been made is overturned, it is considered final/concluded. This is just like a parent making a decision and the child not liking it so they go to the other parent to get a different decision to overturn the other parent. So, unless the other parent overturns the 1st parents decision, that decision was final. Now that decision may not be able to be enacted because of the appeal, but it is still final until the appeal is heard. Your issue that I am referring to is the fact you keep crying about a court's decision. If you can't live with that decision and you have to keep trying to say it's not right and MDY's code doesn't do this or that, then that is the issue you should have yourself checked for. I also appreciate your inference that I am retarded, by your statement above, then that also includes you as well. I to am done arguing this with you. That leaves us both in a retarded state.
Gosh people need to stop crying over stupid things...just read the whole 7 pages and I can't stop laughing....how stupid can one be. People are just trying to find bad things about Blizzard because they "hate blizzard for banning my account because I used to bot" or whatever.
So what Blizzard is sueing MDY for "peeking in WoW.exe" ?. Who actually cares? Is the only thing you can say is that now blizzard will try to sue everyone to make money everytime they peek in WoW.exe ..... how dumb must one be to think this. Blizzard would never do such stupid things. The whole point of sueing the bot company was to:
1- Remove most bots in the game
2- Scare future bot makers
3- Scare potential bot users
I don't think we should actually care about how MDY was sued. From the moment they broke ToU, it's already over. Blizzard can use the technique they want to make sure MDY is closed. Who cares if people see it as "unfair" ....QQ MORE! MDY will hopefully shut down after the final verdict during the appeal, Blizzard will hopefully get his hand on bot users list and ban them. DONE. WoW will be one of the cleanest games when it comes to botting. Only thing that will remain are the gold farmers but if I remember, some players sued one of the gold farmers company last year. Never had any news about it though. Still, they're way easier to take care of.
Beside, I really doubt Blizzard would do anything stupid like sueing a company for peeking into WoW.exe if it isn't for botting. Otherwise Blizzard would've sued xFire long ago.....Keep it real please.
you own the software, but you dont own the servers they run on. Their servers, their rules. You break em, you are restricted access onto their servers.
No, Blizzard's argument was that players aren’t owners but merely software licensees.
The Court ultimately held that:
"Blizzard owns a valid copyright in the game client software, Blizzard has granted a limited license for WoW players to use the software, use of the software with Glider falls outside the scope of the license established in section 4 of the TOU, use of Glider includes copying to RAM within the meaning of section 106 of the Copyright Act, users of WoW and Glider are not entitled to a section 117 defense, and Glider users therefore infringe Blizzard’s copyright. MDY does not dispute that the other requirements for contributory and vicarious copyright infringement are met, nor has MDY established a misuse defense. The Court accordingly will grant summary judgment in favor of Blizzard with respect to liability on the contributory and vicarious copyright infringement claims in Counts II and III."
Section 117 states an owner of software has a right to copy it if that copy is essential to the customer’s use of the software.
virtuallyblind.com/files/mdy/07-14-08_Order.pdf
Blizzard cant say you can or cant install or "copy" WoW onto your computer. The only power they have is to ban your account and restrict access onto their servers. Using glider was/is a bannable offense, so instead of just banning accounts they went after the makers of the program to fix the problem altogether. Like i said earlier, if you dont like their rules, dont play on their servers or their game.
Blizzard CAN say that you can't install or copy WoW, that's what the court just found. The thing is, these guys who cheated, who used glider, can be sued for copyright infringement and Blizz will win. Precedence has been set.
unless they put a DRM on the WoW client, they dont have the power to stop people from using that WoW client. And even still people can find work a rounds. This means nothing for blizzard as far as telling people they cannot install their software on people's computers since they cant do anything to enforce it or anything really. Unless as you say they can sue the people but ..... i mean really that would take too much time and resources to be bothered with doing.
Here's the thing, they're doing it. They are requesting a list of all people who purchased Glider.
Is the list they want so they can sue these people or ban them? BIG difference there.
i support using fireing squads on those cheaters
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
Gold sellers are next.
Maybe Blizzard wouldn't but they blew the doors open for another company to if the the repeal fails. A legal precedent is being set that is outside the scope of WoW.
A lot of you guys don't seem to realize this hurts legitimate software owners, as well as people who abuse it.
I sure hope Firefox won't sue AVG for my personal information since they're peaking into Firefox's ram space.
Good story, what a dumb company for trying to sue...lol.
Yeah go Blizzard! Death to the bots!
1. Welcome to the world of copyright. It has been, for a long time, that you do not own that film on your dvd disc, or the music tracks on your new britney album, that's the law.
2. There is a world of difference between the end user breaking the ToS / Copyright laws in his/her house for "fun" and a company/person selling/distributing a product that breaks copyright and ToS.
I find this ruling a great decission and so grats to blizz, gratz to the ordinary end user, and a BIG FU to all you sad low life bot running, cheating cry babies
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Funny. I thought this whole issue was about Glider breaking the EULA. This prove the EULA is useless legally so they had to figure some other way to get them, by claiming copyright infringement. How is Glider breaching copyright by inserting itself into wow.exe?
Most of the programs I have running in the background right now interfere with eachother. My antivirus is constantly checking every file in ram, my spyware blocker is checking every webpage I open, with all them activex controls and so on, Firefox is blocking ads, even from this site and by that interfering with how the page is supposed to be looked at. I often run an ip blocker cause of certain moneygrabbing idiots not to be mentioned here. Can you say slippery slope? I sure as hell can.
The court's decision opened up (unintentionally I guess) for alot of greedy idiots to sure for interfering with their programs.
I still see botters as cheaters though, and I want them banned from my mmo's, just not by claiming the botters break the copyright of the mmo. Not to mention breaking copyright is a criminal offense. So if I use a bot, I'm suddenly a criminal now? To hell with that...
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
Botting is a crime against gaming. I dont think this will set a massive precedent tho, blizz likely only won due to have the legal whammy (lots of dosh) to keep it up. I dont think they even went after the guy for money just to send a message, dont fuck with our game!
I'm glad they won, maybe less cyber criminals will infect our precious games now. Cheat in single player games if your that bad. Just dont bother playing mmos if you have to cheat, or atleast consider you may be playing the wrong game if you are botting.
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
I got tired of reading the useless crap after 3rd page, anyhow..
Botting doesn't really matter if it doesn't affect the gaming community but it does. Botting and gold selling comes hand in hand, the gold farmers don't just sit there all day and kill shit over and over for the drops. They bot it, you also usually get power leveling offers along with the gold spam as well and this is also a product of botters. It ruins game, it affects the game economy, gives people an unfair advantage over people who play the game the way it was intended to be played. Bots have become a plague on the MMO world, anyone see the post for Aion and how many bots there were? It's ridiculous.
People who use bots for personal use... not really that big of a deal, though I think it's pretty stupid to pay for a program so it plays the game you pay for.. if you don't like the grind, go play something else.'
GJ to Blizzard and their legal team
PS: Blizzard isn't going to go around sueing everyone, it's costly and the bums they sued wouldn't be able to pay it. The big thing about this lawsuit is that it tries to prevent people from profitting off their product.
sychotix: it's unlikely that Blizzard is gonna go on a sueing spree because programs are peaking into WoW.exe. those programs you listed scan files without bias, Glider is program with one thing in mind...
Bots are a bane of any MMO. Play the game guys, buying it so it can play itself is a sign of moral degeneration.
Maybe you should go play those 2 F2P games (can't recall names of them atm)That have in game bot program.
MDY(Glider)is a bot program used exclusively to disrupt gameplay of others legitimently playing the game,so if they lose it won't effect anyone else unless there doing something simular like your examples of Firefox and or a anti-virus program.
I am sure that these established companies have good enough lawyers too that if say Firefox need some code access to a Blizzards game that they would ask to be allowed to do so or pay a fee to be allowed to do so.