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A call out to all sandbox players regarding a class system
Eronakis
Member UncommonPosts: 2,249
I feel that I am a minority here on this forum, at least for those who post. To me, about 75% of the people here who post here are sandbox players. For one, I don't mind sandbox style, but for some reason I can just not get away from classes. I think classes in mmo's lately are not done correctly at all. So I ask this to all sandbox players. Would you play an mmo with a in-depth, theme corrected, class system with different ways to play the class with out limiting too, just a grand variety of abilities. However, you are limited to the number of abilities to have activated at one time on your hot bars. (say 15).
What I mean by in-depth is, your class has several different ability sets that can be used in different situations and scenarios. Let's say that a fireball has its predetermined effects. However, you can use that fireball in different ways using a combo system. Maybe a combo system much like AION but way more in-depth and intriguing. Maybe each type of class, melee, caster, healer and ranged has their own combo system. This combo system makes you strategize. You just don't hit a few buttons and call it a fight. You have to plan ahead with any combo system. What if these combo systems offered different ways to combo, and you could fight dozens of battles before reusing the same combo again?
What I mean with a theme corrected style, is that what does a shaman do? Of course, they are a healer or support if you want to correctly do them. Also add that they can call on different animal spirits for buffs and debuffs as well has a variety of spells that can be used with the elements as well.
I really think that some sandbox players may be intrigued by an indepth class system with different ways to play that is challenging. Maybe seeing 5 wizards and each of the 5 wizards play differently but they are still the same class so other players at least have an idea to know what to expect out of them. Maybe one combo or two or three isn't powerful and you use all the time, because they have to complement each other. But I do understand that one of the reasons why sandbox players hates classes, is the simple fact of you can not pick and choose your abilities and what to excel in or not. Look at it like I tried to explain the combo system, where there are dozens of way to play your class but still not limited too. Would you Sandbox players at least consider or try a game that has these qualities for a class based mmorpg?
Comments
Sorry I couldn't read the whole post due to time restraint, but I think I can offer a solution that blends systems that at least one game coming soon is implementing.
Basically you have it skill based ala UO, Darkfall, SWG at launch, but at the same time you can have tons of classes. Hundreds, or tens that are defined by a skillset and offer certain bonuses and negatives. To become the class you simply have to meet the skill requirements and turn it on.
For example:
A class could be Paladin:
Strength 45, Swords 35, Shield 35, Healing 30
Bonus to healing, shield defense, and bonus defense when HP drops below 50%
Penalty to all attacks when not wielding a shield, and to all damaging spells
Then if a player meets the requirements they can turn on that class and reap the rewards. The idea of a sandbox is to offer freedom and what is great is that you can simply gear your skills towards another class if you want to try it instead. All gear is wearable by everyone so you can make yourself look like whatever you want.
Classes are easy to create, and it would be simple to have 100 classes. Just a system that I enjoy.
Well some people don't think you can have a sandbox without doing a skill system.
I don't mind classes as much, but they can be hit or miss, if I can't find a class I like then I have trouble liking the game, but the same could be said for skills too.
The only other problems people would have would be lack of variety and choice, but then again there are many skill based games I have played where there was less variety and difference between PCs than in a class based game.
Your idea reminds me of Guild Wars, which I though was a fun system, except for the part where they forced you to multiclass in PvE mode. So I would try it, I also like CoX' archetype system which this sounds like a bit too.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I agree with you here about if a game doesn't have some skill sets or classes I don't like you won't enjoy the game much. I never played Guild Wars but I am aware of it.
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Dang, I thought this thread would get some attention. either my ideas stumped you or they are complete garbage lol. I guess I expect too much. Thought I would see some
with blood and gore.
Sandbox MMORPGs offer more then combat. so a new combo system just won't do it.
Some people enjoy being a full time crafter. Granted, I enjoy combat immensely but I also enjoy crafting things. sandbox games grants us the freedom to be anything we want and explore the game mechanics in interesting ways.
Static Classes impinge on this freedom and restricts our imagination, exploration, and creativity.
Fair enough. Why can't players be creative with a system already in place? The only difference is classes are predetermined to abilities. And for skills, you just make your own class. I remember I had a friend who despises skill based system because everyone has different specs and there are like 5 main ones, and one being the battle mage tank. Is that really freedom, if no one can beat a battle mage tank that a player has made in a skill based system?
I still say, classes make it better for grouping!
Now that's a good Class system in my book
Now that's a good Class system in my book
Yeah thats not a bad idea at all. It's different. But one thing that concerns me, is what if some abilities are more complex then others? Like what if you have to chain certian abilities to make one massive spell or something?
Fair enough. Why can't players be creative with a system already in place? The only difference is classes are predetermined to abilities. And for skills, you just make your own class. I remember I had a friend who despises skill based system because everyone has different specs and there are like 5 main ones, and one being the battle mage tank. Is that really freedom, if no one can beat a battle mage tank that a player has made in a skill based system?
I still say, classes make it better for grouping!
Those arguments are so old
Only 5 builds? See EVE Online, disproves that one
Classes make for better grouping?
See EVE Online. Fleets are brilliantly organized. Medical facilities 'ping' themselves so you know where they are.
You can look at fellow comrades and you know their role
I dont believe Classes do anything at all better. They restrict creativity in a huge way. Imagine if EVE were class based- I could not create my own profession. I'd be stuck with the developer's limited imagination
see swg circa 2004. that game had over 25 classes and you could mix and match from the ones you liked..far superior system from your present 3 tiers of advancement you see in mmo's today.
I've only ever seen it pulled off successfully in MUDs, but a good way of having a sandbox game with classes (and a good endgame) is to have a smaller set of classes and let every character play and master each class, while forcing them to specialize in one of them at any given time and requiring them to relevel if they want to switch. They can still use most of their non specialization abilities, but with certain balancing weaknesses.
Let's people play any archetype they wish while also fostering reclassing, a good form of endgame which recycles content. Pair this up with a lower and easier to reach level cap, item decay, and in some places item loot, and you've got virtual crack.
Sand Box and classes are two different issues, but yes I hate classes.
I just don't see a point for them. I'm playing Mass Effect right now, and I don't see why they have classes. Why not just let me custom build? I just don't get it.
Good post.
Sandbox players already have a system like this. I can easily think up a paladin class skill up melee Swords or maces, Shields, heavy armor and Restoration Magic along with a couple buffs and a smite (bolt) for good messure.
The players of these games already set the requirments of these classes. We don't need some reward system thats in place to tell us we made a paladin. I don't need a reward. Knowing that i used my imagination and careful planning to design my class is reward enough.
Now I can go out and be a heavy armored fighter that buffs and tosses heals here and there.
We don't need a predetermined skill requirement that tells us how and when to make a particular class.
THis is the beauty of a skillbased/sandbox. I can make a paladin then if i get bored with him i can start casting and turn the dude into a shadowknight or start wearing leather and use daggers and make him a scout/thief. We dont need to be rewarded once we fullfilled a certain skill requirment.
Having the limitless character customization is enough.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Actually this is something I never liked about skill based games was how fluid your character is, it makes it so they lack any concrete identity.
I would always prefer a skill system where you pick your skills at the beginning and then are locked into your choice and progress from there, if you want to make a thief or mage then make a new character.
I have never been into the one character can do it all system.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
What kind of grouping are we talking about here?
For pvp you only need the basic archtypes. Heavy armor, Scout, Ranged Dps and Utility (heal).
even if players get crazy with skills they all still fall into these archtypes.
Now it's even easier if your talking pve content
In pve content all you need is tank, Dps and Utility (heal/buff/Rez).
It's very easy to get people of those archtypes together to tackle any pve content the gamemasters toss at ya.
I actually think its easier to fill these roles in a skillbased game since the majority of these players will beable to full fill multiple rolls.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
First the green part: If it bleeds, we can kill it.
Orange part: Linear games are indeed better for grouping. But when it comes to SandBox, the community heavily rely on their guild or friends. In order to do so each member will play a strategic role in the party (one will work as a support, tank etc) even though there is no specific class.
(exemple) Let's say one of your friend is a "tank/DPS" and you're a 'tank/healer"'. Well if he's injured, you can simply switch place with him while he recovers and help the others. Note that this is more effective when played with guildies or friends like mentionned above.
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As for the main subject: Sandbox doesn't limit you to a single story like Linear games. Even if you change of server or make a new character, the story is the same. That's not the case in Sandbox. Most Sandbox will offer player generated story and all servers will be unique.
Players are also given great choices like becoming a full-time/part-time/casual crafter, become an adventurer, mercenary, merchant or assassin etc. Something I doubt you will ever find in Linear MMOs. It's a completly different feeling.
Actually this is something I never liked about skill based games was how fluid your character is, it makes it so they lack any concrete identity.
I would always prefer a skill system where you pick your skills at the beginning and then are locked into your choice and progress from there, if you want to make a thief or mage then make a new character.
I have never been into the one character can do it all system.
Having to reroll alts is extremely limiting even if a system lets that class have mulitple playstyles.
It's all up to the player in a sandbox. If you only want to play as a heavy armored type go for it.
You can totally live out your life in a sandbox and if the game is balanced right not feel gimped in anyway.
Who says you can't play a certain class the whole time? and If you want you can even roll a new alt and skill up a different way. its all player choice.
The best part is we can play together, you can be that uber mage with four other alts (archtypes) while i could train them all up with one character and with a simple gear switch we can adapt to any situation.
You don't have to be 100 different classes in one if you don't want to. its all about player choice.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Am I the only one on this whole danm site who prefers classes over skills?
I don't really see how having to reroll alts and pick different skills for them is limiting, you still have the same options you just make multiple characters for different things you want to do.
But it bothers me a bit that the mage guy, if he took the notion could trade out magic and be just as good at melee as my character is, going from Marduk the Mage to Marduk the Warrior breaks the roleplaying element and believability for me. I mean if you can easily change your character then how do you build a character concept, and does my choice really matter if I can undo it so easily. It is the fact that characters can be changed that makes them seem very samey, even if they aren't at that moment.
Truth be told I never stick to my character concept in skill based games anyway, I always sacrifice what I want to do for what I need to do like healing and such.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Good post.
Sandbox players already have a system like this. I can easily think up a paladin class skill up melee Swords or maces, Shields, heavy armor and Restoration Magic along with a couple buffs and a smite (bolt) for good messure.
The players of these games already set the requirments of these classes. We don't need some reward system thats in place to tell us we made a paladin. I don't need a reward. Knowing that i used my imagination and careful planning to design my class is reward enough.
Now I can go out and be a heavy armored fighter that buffs and tosses heals here and there.
We don't need a predetermined skill requirement that tells us how and when to make a particular class.
THis is the beauty of a skillbased/sandbox. I can make a paladin then if i get bored with him i can start casting and turn the dude into a shadowknight or start wearing leather and use daggers and make him a scout/thief. We dont need to be rewarded once we fullfilled a certain skill requirment.
Having the limitless character customization is enough.
Agree the idea above is a good one. I would not mind playing a skill based game like that.
Metalheads post is what confuses me about the skill based verse class based debate. So skill based is better because you can pick the skills yourself that make the class that you want to play, i.e. Paladin. How is that really different then say EQ where i just picked Paladin. I still had to build up skillin Swords, hammers, shield, healing and so forth.
Granted in a pure skill based game you can completely change out skills to from another class with the same guy but that really doesnt appeal to me that much. I like playing different races and different classes on different people. This gives me a change of pace, if i want to tank i pull up my SK, if i want to blast i pull up my Wizzy, if i want to be a huge wrecking machine i pull up my Ogre Warrior, if i want to be a little sneaky bastard i pull up my Halfling Thief. I guess you can say that that is limiting but the other method is as well. You cannot be a great Tank and great Blaster in a decently done Skill based game that does not let you max out everything. You have to make choices and those choices builds a certain type of character, which is usually very close to an existing class.
I like class based systems that make you build up skills and limits you on how many skills you can actually keep built up high.
I often wonder if original EQ is more sandbox than many believe.
I don't really see how having to reroll alts and pick different skills for them is limiting, you still have the same options you just make multiple characters for different things you want to do.
But it bothers me a bit that the mage guy, if he took the notion could trade out magic and be just as good at melee as my character is, going from Marduk the Mage to Marduk the Warrior breaks the roleplaying element and believability for me. I mean if you can easily change your character then how do you build a character concept, and does my choice really matter if I can undo it so easily. It is the fact that characters can be changed that makes them seem very samey, even if they aren't at that moment.
Truth be told I never stick to my character concept in skill based games anyway, I always sacrifice what I want to do for what I need to do like healing and such.
QFT
I play RPGS MMORPGS because it makes sense to me from a rpg perspective a person spending his entire life lifting weights, honing his sword skills and physique would be better than a mage/wizard with a sword and armor. The mage/sorcerer/wizard spending his entire life reading scrolls and books being stuck in ancient libraries learning magic would be a physically weak character.
Those are the types of games i enjoy playing. That's not to say there isn't room for games where you can be anything at any given time. It just wouldn't be a game i would care to play. I like having a solid identity and a set role.
Sandbox to me means more about what you can do in the world you play in. Become a thief, mercenary, Spy, bounty hunter, Hero, Villain, Devout Zealot the list is endless. Not as a class but what you choose to do.
I don't really see how having to reroll alts and pick different skills for them is limiting, you still have the same options you just make multiple characters for different things you want to do.
But it bothers me a bit that the mage guy, if he took the notion could trade out magic and be just as good at melee as my character is, going from Marduk the Mage to Marduk the Warrior breaks the roleplaying element and believability for me. I mean if you can easily change your character then how do you build a character concept, and does my choice really matter if I can undo it so easily. It is the fact that characters can be changed that makes them seem very samey, even if they aren't at that moment.
Truth be told I never stick to my character concept in skill based games anyway, I always sacrifice what I want to do for what I need to do like healing and such.
QFT
I play RPGS MMORPGS because it makes sense to me from a rpg perspective a person spending his entire life lifting weights, honing his sword skills and physique would be better than a mage/wizard with a sword and armor. The mage/sorcerer/wizard spending his entire life reading scrolls and books being stuck in ancient libraries learning magic would be a physically weak character.
Those are the types of games i enjoy playing. That's not to say there isn't room for games where you can be anything at any given time. It just wouldn't be a game i would care to play. I like having a solid identity and a set role.
Sandbox to me means more about what you can do in the world you play in. Become a thief, mercenary, Spy, bounty hunter, Hero, Villain, Devout Zealot the list is endless. Not as a class but what you choose to do.
This is also a QFT!!!
I'm nto sure how many of you have played Horizons or Ryzom but I like the way those two games go about "classes."
In Horizons you can have any class you want. You start off with no class and you go to a trainer to pick one and if you don't like it you can talk to someone else to switch. Some people might not like the fact that one person can switch roles constantly but in that particular game everyone can solo to max level. The thing is, the few people still playing the game don't worry about getting to max level. Horizons is a community based game where people work together to build towns and weapons, spells, enchantments, and everything else.
When it comes to constructing your own property into a store or home you'll need others to help, whether you hire them or not. It is still possible to take every crafting class and level them all up to 100 but thats a ridiculous grind...but the option is still there. The game wasn't made to be a race to max level and raiding.
Ryzom doesn't really have the typical classes or levels but you still have the generic skills to you raise. Both games are more "sandbox" than the majority of MMORPGs but their unique systems wouldn't work in the WoW style game with raids and I think the majority or players enjoy those types of instances.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
It's just my style to like a game that lets me choose how I want to craft my avatar.
Im turned off by a system that sets a class up for me even before I create my character.
Even if my version of a paladin isnt as cool as some class a dev designed for me, its still mine.
In a skillbased game I feel more attached to my character because I choose every ability, spell and what kind of armor my character could wear.
I understand that players like classes, hell I actually liked some of the classes in DaoC and even WoW.
To each his own.
I prefer fully crafting my character and coming up with Original classes that feel unique to my playstyle.
It just makes sense to me, in sandbox I start out as an adventurer. If i grab a sword and kill stuff with it, over time i can be a master swordsmen. If I read a spell book and learn how to cast a fireball, with practice i can be a really powerful mage.
I like deciding how my characters are going to specialize if they do at all. I dont want to just level up buy spells for that particular level then add talent points in one of three trees.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
What I like about a skill based game is that my playstile will over time weed out the specs that best suit my game play style. What I mean by this is that over time the skills I don't use will fall by the wayside and the ones that I tend to use most will become stronger.
Lets assume that I like to play a crafter. If it was a class based game the only way for me to advance is to go out fighting mobs with skills geared toward combat that I never wanted to begin with. All I wanted to do was make stuff but most of the games out right now limit you to what you can make based on level. To get to the levels I hav to fight, I don't like fighting. Same with healers. Most games now give you a ton of skills geared to ward doing damage when if it was a skill based game most healers would probably focus on something that supports their healing rather then all out damage.
Eventually everybody player would mould their character just by simply playing to what they want out of the game. If they are an assassin they'd have probably no ability to heal but would do great suprise attacks with the chosen weapon. They'd probably wear light armor because the heavyer stuff makes too much noise... and so on and so forth.
I suppose there is also a dark side to this where there are going to be people who particularly train for specific skills to make their toon some sort juggernaut in battle but I think it's their right to do what makes them happy just as perhaps the crafter has the right to just craft and make things.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I am enthused on viewing what everyone likes and their play styles. But for the love of all that is holy, can we please stay on topic? All I asked, is would a sandbox player be intrested in what I have described in my original post. Would you give that type of game a chance? Yes, it obvioulsy blocks some freedom, but there is freedom inside the system.
Bah I just need a flash of genius!