Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Darkfall "a bare-bones alpha release of a FPS game with a few RPG aspects and a dead and empty world
Polarization
Member Posts: 1,410
Let's talk about "fluff" features...
Features keep getting cut out. Fanboys continue to spout that "this is a PvP game - those features are carebear! go back to wow n00b!!".
Unfortunately, when you keep taking features out, you eventually end up with what is essentially a FPS game with a few RPG aspects.
Right now, players can amass gold. Some of them can form clans. They can build reputations as feared pks or valiant defenders of the innocent.
Unfortunately, the important features such as an immersive crafting system, player housing, affordable player sailing (i'm talking about small one-mast sailboats), an interesting mount system, animal taming, and various community-oriented features have been left out.
This will leave the game feeling like a bare-bones alpha release. There is simply too much missing from the world. If players ONLY want pvp and don't care about anything else, do you think they'll be playing a MMO? No. It's much more likely they'll head over to Counter Strike, or even Guild Wars, where you're easily able to create a max level character and start PvPing.
But you say, PvP means nothing in guild wars and it means something in darkfall because darkfall has full loot and guild wars does not. I agree with you here. PvP is much more fun when you actually have something to gain by killing the other person. For the record, there's much to gain for being skilled at PvP in guild wars, but I won't go into that here. Spend even 20 minutes researching the game and you'd know about the various rewards and progression.
Now let's get to the issue of full loot. Full loot is an amazing thing. In UO, it worked wonderfully. Of course, they eventually started adding "blessed" stuff, and then they even introduced "item insurance" (which - btw - didn't work for shit. "insurance" should mean that your loot still drops, only you're reimbursed. it didn't drop at all). Shadowbane had partial loot, such that everything in your pack could be looted, but nothing you had equipped. PvP was very meaningful in shadowbane, arguably moreso than anything else in the game.
So, to say that full loot implies that PvP has meaning, it must follow that the loot you expect to be acquiring from your victims is actually worth something. This is where Darkfall is confused. There's nothing really of value to loot from anyone. Sure, you can loot their armor, but we've heard many times that armor and weapons won't be very difficult to obtain. We don't want this to become a game where pvp skill is determined by the items you're wearing rather than your actual skill. Or, perhaps you end up looting someone's gold. Great. Now you can buy more armor and potions to pvp more.
The point is, if you ONLY want to PvP, you shouldn't be playing this game. You shouldn't be playing any MMO. You should be playing a game that lets you PvP all the time, without worrying about skilling up and acquiring gear. Think about it.
By that logic, everyone playing Darkfall wants more than just PvP. Unfortunately, Darkfall has managed to offer little more than PvP, especially for the average player. Certain guilds may be able to acquire Clan Cities and build them up (through an insane amount of grinding, and requiring really no pvp until the city gets seiged), but most players will simply end up with nothing to spend their hard earned gold on, except more pvp.
Darkfall is missing the casual elements that made UO so great. Shadowbane was missing them too, which is why the world always felt so dead and empty (unless of course there was a battle going on). The point is, there needs to be things for PvPers to do, other than PvP. In UO, the best duelists always had a nice house full of trophies and other rares that they'd acquired through duels and other PvP activities. They might sit in town all day showing off their rare items. Let's be honest here, PvP is really about two things: Knowing you're the best, and telling everyone else you're the best.
When a PvPer was bored of PvP, he might hop on his alt character and do some lumberjacking, maybe to build furniture to decorate his house. He might hop on his fisherman and hunt for treasure. Meanwhile, he knew that if someone decided to pk one of his alts, he could hop on his main and destroy them. In fact, some people might back off after simply hearing who his main was.
What I'm trying to say is, there was more for a PvPer to do than just PvP. These other things are what made the world feel like a full and complete environment, something living. I feel like Darkfall is lacking that "alive" feeling.
Comments
you typed an awful lot there, its at the end of my day so forgive me if i only read the beginning and very end. Many of us will see exactly what darkfall is or isnt missing tomorrow just about this time. Until then everything is just an educated guess, which i thank you for doing since most posts like this are just straight up guesses based on their hate for DF.
I did not type this I just thought it was one of the best posts and reviews of the game for people who are looking for something other then just PvP I have seen in a long time on the official forums, and I know many people interested in the game do not read them.
I thought it would be especially interesting to people like myself who played previous games like UO and Shadowbane who may of been hoping Darkfall might of been similar or even an improvement on some of those games concepts and features.
Poor Polar, another one of the Hardcore trolls playing on his last string.
Stop making stuff up in ur head.
No "fanboy" ever said the features left out of Darkfall was "carebear" we said they where not KEY features.
This is the KEY part of Darkfall features:
Full loot FFA pvp. CHECK.
FPS style combat. CHECK
Massive magic system, melee and Archery. CHECK.
The Ability to craft almost any item in the game. CHECK.
Player housing, in the form of guild towns. CHECK.
The ability to craft and use boats of various sizes. CHECK.
Intelligent mob AI. CHECK.
Mounts. CHECK.
And when u have all that, u have a good MMORPG.
Did they promise more ?
well lets see, movable mob spawns may or may not be in the game, a fog system, would have been nice but who cares.
NPC hirelings, and tamed mobs, again would have been nice I guess, hardly important.
Nothing KEY about any of those features.
As for the player housing, we know guilds can place towns, and we know they will be able to place certain buildings in those towns at launch, however MORE is coming, and that is a good thing, it didnt make it to launch but we are getting a more expansive housing system, which I think alot of ppl are looking forward to.
I am at least. But does the lack of this at launch means the game is in alpha? Are u on crack ?
Lastly u claim the boats arent affordable, have u EVER played an MMO?
The economy WILL inflate, EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS, this always happens in all MMOs.
So those boats u claim arent affordable, give it two months.
-Darkstar
So if you're a person who likes PVP, don't play MMOs? So we should all play Doom Clones instead? Cmon.
This.
Polar use to have good sarcastic and fun posts. Now he is just trolling because he wont admit his predictions were wrong about DF.
Oh well, i hope he finds a game he enjoys soon so he can stop being jealous of us having fun in ours.
~~
Darkfall Releases on: February 25th, 2009
Darkfall Recap of everything that has happened the last 3 months: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/213296
"The monsters are tough. I was looking for a challenge, but these things are just too damn smart." -DF Beta Tester
"If people were dismissing it, then they wouldn't be talking about it. The well-meaning gamers root for efforts that try to raise the bar. So who's left? It's so easy being a skeptic." -Tasos
That is indeed a very well written piece. I think tomorrow we will have a better view of what is exactly the state of the game when they start collecting the money and people can actually demand what they paid for. Stuff like state of the community, server stress etc... all untested and very subjective at the minute.
This...
+ weather wasn't on in beta. There is fog and rain still (check screenshots and recent dev talk)
p.s. textures and clipping are all LOW in beta. EVERY screenshot and pvp vid you have seen from beta users is with LOW texture quality, ZERO antialiasing, and CLOSE clipping.
well, yes. And no.
PvP is interesting when it's contextually fit in the world; players fight other players because there is a greater reason, often interwoven with the main storyline of the world. And those few who like to play the evil-doers face the consequences.
But, most importantly...PvP is there to differentiate between a different playstyle, the PvE. See, in order to have a PvP aspect, you need to have an entirely other aspect (PvE), compared to which the gains and risks are more significant. Darkfall completely and utterly misses the PvE aspect.
When a game is only left to be a PvP themed game, it closely resembles an FPS game.
Well then, i guess it's kinda sad that this is the only MMO which can keep me entertained at the moment. It could be just the wait and the "honeymoon period" but still i'm having fun.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
And this is why you only speak from experience and not look at someone elses post and go OMG this games going to fail. lol nice to see you back Polar,
Features keep getting cut out. Fanboys continue to spout that "this is a PvP game - those features are carebear! go back to wow n00b!!".
If you would be so kind as to point out which features have been cut, I would be ever so grateful. Having been in beta the only thing ive found cut is player owned housing. Which I admit I find a loss. Other than that which features are you reffering to? Just do know NDA has been lifted, so you may be called out if you try and state something false.
Unfortunately, the important features such as an immersive crafting system, player housing, affordable player sailing (i'm talking about small one-mast sailboats), an interesting mount system, animal taming, and various community-oriented features have been left out.
Well this is easy to show false, there are rafts and such. KGB actually has a small raft and no harbor or shipyard. Immersive crafting system is deffinetly in, Enchanting is a very involved immersive thing. You have to discovery enchants by trying different combinations of ingredients. For a long time I believe many of these will be closely kept secrets due to how difficult it is to discover them. Enchanting is deffinetly immersive and very deep. Animal taming was removed long ago, and I will simply laugh at the "an interesting mount system" comment lol. Player housing - This is the only one cut and it was done as part of the clan makeup instead. Again this was a bit disheartining but the rest of the game is so much fun I let it go.
This will leave the game feeling like a bare-bones alpha release. There is simply too much missing from the world. If players ONLY want pvp and don't care about anything else, do you think they'll be playing a MMO? No. It's much more likely they'll head over to Counter Strike, or even Guild Wars, where you're easily able to create a max level character and start PvPing.
I am pretty sure not many share this opinion. Alpha release lol, hardly. Bare-bones lol, definettly not. PvP is a big part of the game, can't argue with that. Whats nice is, the PvE is exciting, fun and almost as challenging as the PvP. Lets not forget the crafting system, lol. I love it when you try though Polar. DarkFall is an MMORPG, it has some FPS feel to it and it has some RTS feel to it.
So, to say that full loot implies that PvP has meaning, it must follow that the loot you expect to be acquiring from your victims is actually worth something. This is where Darkfall is confused. There's nothing really of value to loot from anyone. Sure, you can loot their armor, but we've heard many times that armor and weapons won't be very difficult to obtain. We don't want this to become a game where pvp skill is determined by the items you're wearing rather than your actual skill. Or, perhaps you end up looting someone's gold. Great. Now you can buy more armor and potions to pvp more.
Ah, this is one thats been tried before so no + for you. Yes full loot. Loot has meaning, it just isn't the deciding factor. There's no Sword of OMGL33tN332 that lets you send your opponent into another dimension where there ripped apart by demons. Some weapons are better than others, some armor is better than others. If it's enchanted can be even better. There are magical weapons and armor in DFO as well. Here's the thing though, it gives mild advantages, not game balance breaking advantages. It's more about player skill, than items, but items do help. Let me put it this way, In a game like WoW for example, if I am in Grey gear vs. Someone in Purple same level, same class etc. How much of a chance do I have to defeat them? I mean even if I am vastly superior in player skill? 0. Thats right, which means it would suck if I could lose that gear!!!!!!!!!! In DFO this isn't true, if I and another player had the same skills, at the same skill levels and he had better gear and weapons, lets even say the best gear and weapons in game. I still have a chance to beat him IF I am a better player.
Full loot means everything is lootable, regs for casting spells, Potions, food, Armor, weapons, loot they got off of others or mobs, gold, you name it. So how is getting any or all of the above not beneficial to you? Armor and Weapons and items such as that will eventually be destroyed or looted. If you got more in the bank from looting players guess what.............. you don't have to buy more OMG. Player crafted armors and such are also better than mob drops and NPC sold items. Players are likely to wear player made items, wear mobs do not wear player made items. Just use some commen sense and you too can figure out such simple things lol.
While Items in DarkFall don't mean as much to your char as they do in a game such as WoW, they still are meaningful. There just not the be all end all people are us to. It may not be the best stuff but you can get a usable set of armor and some weapons in very little time, which you can use till you get better stuff again.
The point is, if you ONLY want to PvP, you shouldn't be playing this game. You shouldn't be playing any MMO. You should be playing a game that lets you PvP all the time, without worrying about skilling up and acquiring gear. Think about it.
lol, plenty of people only want to PvP in an MMO. This is pretty much all PK's do for the most part. PvP is there PvE. In any case, DFO has plenty to offer besides PvP. I also feel there's a bit of contradiction in this part.
By that logic, everyone playing Darkfall wants more than just PvP. Unfortunately, Darkfall has managed to offer little more than PvP, especially for the average player. Certain guilds may be able to acquire Clan Cities and build them up (through an insane amount of grinding, and requiring really no pvp until the city gets seiged), but most players will simply end up with nothing to spend their hard earned gold on, except more pvp.
You will have to be part of a clan to have a clan city. It takes time and effort to build and defend. Smaller guilds may have to ally with larger clans or other smaller clans to do this. This part also neglects to include, buying player made armor, boats, siege weaponry, weapons, regs for spell casting, mounts, potions, food, etc. There's plenty to buy............
What I'm trying to say is, there was more for a PvPer to do than just PvP. These other things are what made the world feel like a full and complete environment, something living. I feel like Darkfall is lacking that "alive" feeling.
See I found the opposite in my decent amount of time in Beta. I found a wide variety of mobs, in all different shapes and sizes. I found places to explore, things to kill, things to run from. Dungeons all over. PvP is another element among many others that make the world of Agon fun. What did you think the first time you used that key to open one of the chests to find a large quantity of gold and magic weapons and armor? Awsome right? Even treasure hunters will have a place in Agon. The simply fact is, the above sounds like someone that was trying to solo near the starter towns. If you adventure out, there is a great deal to find and do. PvP is part of the game, even a big part, but it in no way is the only thing to do. Lets say it's about 30% PvP, 30% Clan vs Clan, thats 60% of the Pie right? Now that doesn't seem like a lot of pie left until you realise the pie is 5miles in diameter.
All in all some did not enjoy DarkFall, many did. I did as well. But Polar, leave this for those that have had experience to debate. It's bad enough that you discoverd many you were arguing with in fact did have far more knowledge on the subject than you all this time lol.
One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone is the same. We have all had different experiences and different amounts of gaming time ,etc. over our varying number of years on Earth.
I have come to the conclusion that FPS PVE is boring for the most part. It offers little sense of accomplishment in my opinion. FPS PvP is a ton of fun.
Turned based, or simulated real time combat is for for PvE. You are trying to solve a problem more than just dodge and fire. Dodge and fire against a NPC is to predictable and not as engaging as against a human opponent.
I have since accepted that I do not want my PvE and PvP experience to take place in the same game. This is also because of the styles I prefer per genre and because when they both are focused on in the same game, the game breaks. Every game I have seen try to balance PvE and PvP eventually ruin the game for both.
PVP Focused Game: It is better to have PvE there to level up skills, gather materials and maybe a few quests and a few long, drawn out epic quests for various equipment or whatever. But overall, the draw and attention of the game is PvP and should be FPS in nature or as near to it as possible with the mechanics of the combat system.
PvE Focused Game: PvP is fine as a side objective that is not attempted to be balanced. I.E. dueling, small arena fights that are not rewarded outside of server reputation you gain for winning. "Hey you hear so and so beat so and so in a duel or 3x3 arena match" Often this little relief gives players more incentive to show up for a raid and try to upgrade that last piece that will give them 5 more attack power. Maybe that'll give them the extra edge when they try to regain pride for their guild in a duel. Or maybe it is so they can do a little more damage against the final boss they guild needs to beat to open up the next tier...Combat should not be twitched base in the PvE scenario and be more casual to allow for conversation and strategy during combat.
What you are describing sounds just like a "a bare-bones alpha release of a FPS game with a few RPG aspects and a dead and empty world", without any "fluff" features at all with nothing much else to do other then PvP or Grind / Macro so you can PvP whilst you hope that many of the promised features and content cut or unfinished for release will be added "soon".
So why don't you explain exactly what you disagree with about this review (I presume you did actually read it, perhaps you did not?), or do you actually agree with it but this is all that is needed to qualify as a "good" MMO by your standards?
For the record, this review sums up a lot of the things I dont like in the game, but seriously Polar, you're trying too hard. At this point, everyone who thinks the game is good wont change his mind, and vice versa. All you're gonna get here is flame posts labeling you as a troll.
The rules of Debate are really simple; once you have to stoop to insults instead of facts, logic, or reason to try and win your argument, you've lost.
A big thing for me that is left out (as far as I am aware) and is still be advertised is this www.darkfallonline.com/faq/economy.html to be able to set up things like this add to the environment of the world and give it a sense that it is alive. The game mechanics can be great, but if the world is stale then it gets boring fast. ( I don't think npcs should be able to guard players though) Especially if the world really is a huge as people are saying. Who wants to run through and empty world with just static spawns. This does not kill the game, however its just not as interesting as it could have been.
Really if you think about it too hired npcs could have been great. They wouldn't be able to defend your keep by themselves however they could have served as a good warning system as well as held off a small force giving you enough time to get to your keep.
That's just some basic stuff I would have like to see. I do wish they would have updated their features though they are advertising some features that are not in the game or complete.
What you are describing sounds just like a "a bare-bones alpha release of a FPS game with a few RPG aspects and a dead and empty world", without any "fluff" features at all with nothing much else to do other then PvP or Grind / Macro so you can PvP whilst you hope that many of the promised features and content cut or unfinished for release will be added "soon".
So why don't you explain exactly what you disagree with about this review (I presume you did actually read it, perhaps you did not?), or do you actually agree with it but this is all that is needed to qualify as a "good" MMO by your standards?
The ability to aquire pixels, and the ability to kill other players... wait that sums up every MMO out there!
Ad to the ability to have houses and boats and u are FAR from an Alpha, UNLESS it doesn't WORK.
And u know what, it works well, the client is, as many have said, Solid.
Is that enough to call it a finished MMO? yeah, it is, unless u personally feel no other mmo on the market is finished atm.
-Darkstar
Using the faq to get an idea about what DFO is, really isn't a good idea lol. Fans and Trolls alike find it asinine they have yet to update there Website. The Promised features come from Dev journals, interviews and such. The things on the DFO site ,such as the feature list and such, that are missing were stated to be out long before now. This is why fans say the only thing left out is player housing.
So if it must be said again, WE ALL AGREE THEY NEED TO UPDATE THERE SITE <----- From a fan.
As far as promised features, those we were not told long before now were removed are in, with the exception of player owned housing.
I mean it's not like they pulled an AoC lol. 1 hour before launch.......... ok just so everyone knows DX10 will not be in, so don't buy it expecting DX10 to be in.
This...
+ weather wasn't on in beta. There is fog and rain still (check screenshots and recent dev talk)
p.s. textures and clipping are all LOW in beta. EVERY screenshot and pvp vid you have seen from beta users is with LOW texture quality, ZERO antialiasing, and CLOSE clipping.
clipping is low. textures is medium
lol...so they are going to magically turn all this on tomorrow? cool! i really am curious to see the new and improved graphics.
What you are describing sounds just like a "a bare-bones alpha release of a FPS game with a few RPG aspects and a dead and empty world", without any "fluff" features at all with nothing much else to do other then PvP or Grind / Macro so you can PvP whilst you hope that many of the promised features and content cut or unfinished for release will be added "soon".
So why don't you explain exactly what you disagree with about this review (I presume you did actually read it, perhaps you did not?), or do you actually agree with it but this is all that is needed to qualify as a "good" MMO by your standards?
me and my clan found fluff features with pve granted it will need more which will come soon
I saw that thread on the Darkfall forums. It's a very interesting read with a lot of folks over there agreeing with the initial assessment.
It's almost comical how some people here are trying to say that you wrote this post, Polar. It's like they missed the link at the beginning of your post. It was written by a guy at the DF forums who is not only a long-time fan (he joined their boards in '04), but he's also beta tester. I thought those guys were supposed to have magic amounts of credibility that everyone else lacks when talking about Darkfall. Guess not.
In any event, the game launches tomorrow, and the official boards are already cranky due to the pre-order drama of the past few days. It will be interesting to see what happens once people get charged full price for the game and become full paying customers.
However if this was any other company we would be in an uproar because things are being advertised still that are not in the game even if they are updated somewhere in the forums or blogs. It is not difficult to update a website (they have a lot to update so hopefully they have been working on it for awhile) especially before the release. This is something that is done by most professional companies. We all need to hold AV to the same standard. If something is changed it should be updated for the public to easily be able to view they don't need to make a news announcement about it, but just update it.
I was pointing out a fact that their main site has not been updated to reflect these changes someone should not have to search through a forum to find out if a features that is advertised is really in there as advertised. Obviously there are certain exceptions. If you have been following a game for years, there is not much of a problem. However new consumers especially as people try to get their friends to come and play read the main site and maybe a review or two. Generally for a company this is rather important that information is up to date.
The only reason I really bring this up is this does hurt companies all the time when they begin to sell items (false advertising). I've been following the game off and on through the years and I would like it to succeed. However they are following a very difficult path with what they are doing and it makes me very iffy of the company. So hopefully they update it for release day.
I'll agree that AoC was bad, I don't think DFO could top that.
If anyone could pm me of a good post or website to read about the crafting in DF, I'm interested in it just having a hard time finding a good place with most of the information.
LOL! You keep convincing yourself. It's childish, but very amusing.
I especially love the MASSIVE magic, melee and archery systems you elude to. I've seen the videos. Is there something I'm missing here? Players chasing other players spamming a ONE CLICK, ONE ANIMATION melee attack or a LAME blue magic spell? Yes, definately MASSIVE!
LOL!
And empty world when there is 10k simultaneous players?
There's more to a game than the number of people playing it. There's also the rest of the game world and what it offers. That's the point.
It's entirely possible for a game to have thousands of players online, but if there's nothing to do in said game except gank each other repeatedly, and the rest of the world feels empty and soulless, people will leave.
I saw that thread on the Darkfall forums. It's a very interesting read with a lot of folks over there agreeing with the initial assessment.
It's almost comical how some people here are trying to say that you wrote this post, Polar. It's like they missed the link at the beginning of your post. It was written by a guy at the DF forums who is not only a long-time fan (he joined their boards in '04), but he's also beta tester. I thought those guys were supposed to have magic amounts of credibility that everyone else lacks when talking about Darkfall. Guess not.
In any event, the game launches tomorrow, and the official boards are already cranky due to the pre-order drama of the past few days. It will be interesting to see what happens once people get charged full price for the game and become full paying customers.
No, I know polar didn't type it up lol. For one, he has simply ran out of things he can say. What he is doing now is attempting to find a way to bash DFO while saving face due to everything that has happend recently lol. I would be ashamed to come around here with my sn if I were him myself lol.
I am a beta tester as well, this post wasn't on the beta forums. It was on the advanced discussion. and sadly the post resembles similar posts from those that did not play much.
The only thing he may be relatively right about is the fact some do find the world empty, there is a reason for that. The Devs kept turning on and off mob spawns so they could test and tweak the AI. We never had a good many turned on at once. Fortunately I was able to see many different mobs durring my time in beta. To say the world is empty is to not have played in beta very long, or you simply stayed in the starter towns.