Maybe he is pointing out the fact that their hopes were set too outrageously high and they didn't deliever , on anything.
I dunno. Maybe your hopes were set too outrageously high. Heres the problem so many people skip over these kinds of things and only see 500 SKILLS!!!!, you need to realise these things are ever changing and no mmo I have ever played has everything they said they would on the FAQ.
if thats a problem for you, maybe you are playing the wrong genre of games.
I have been playing beta for a month now and the game is everything I figured it would be.
Player housing, in the form of guild towns. CHECK.
Lol, nice retcon there. Do you work for Aventurine?
Guild towns and player housing are two separate features; the game has one of them, it doesn't have the other.
The reality is that they've made an FPS with a *cough* skill system *cough* tacked onto it. This is ok, but they should've advertised it that way from the beginning, not as a big open world where you do anything and everything. The only thing you can do is kill or be killed.
I enjoy it for what it is, but I am disappointed that it doesn't even have a third of the functionality of a game that was released over a decade ago (Ultima).
No NPC hirelings? Like do they plan on adding them? I mean for atleast being able to have them vendor items players have created.
This game has a great concept, I'd really like to see if it is at all possible to play this game as a pure crafter, I mean I love PvP, but would atleast like the option to possibly have a monopoly on creating the best items for players. What I mean is maybe gain fame not just for prowess in battle, but for making great items for affordable prices.
Dak Masters says: "You know Jarl Sandwind in town of Mercury Junction? He's got great deals on human weapons and armor."
Originally posted by tripmode So if you're a person who likes PVP, don't play MMOs? So we should all play Doom Clones instead? Cmon.
well, yes. And no.
PvP is interesting when it's contextually fit in the world; players fight other players because there is a greater reason, often interwoven with the main storyline of the world. And those few who like to play the evil-doers face the consequences.
But, most importantly...PvP is there to differentiate between a different playstyle, the PvE. See, in order to have a PvP aspect, you need to have an entirely other aspect (PvE), compared to which the gains and risks are more significant. Darkfall completely and utterly misses the PvE aspect.
When a game is only left to be a PvP themed game, it closely resembles an FPS game.
exactly, and if true, its that mindless concept that will kill the game, i won't know until i experience it for myself but there is no way i'm paying a sub for a shallow fantasy fps when there are others that are free.
Player housing, in the form of guild towns. CHECK.
Lol, nice retcon there. Do you work for Aventurine?
Guild towns and player housing are two separate features; the game has one of them, it doesn't have the other.
The reality is that they've made an FPS with a *cough* skill system *cough* tacked onto it. This is ok, but they should've advertised it that way from the beginning, not as a big open world where you do anything and everything. The only thing you can do is kill or be killed.
I enjoy it for what it is, but I am disappointed that it doesn't even have a third of the functionality of a game that was released over a decade ago (Ultima).
Well technically no.
A guild hall is a player placed building, as are the other buildings currently available for guild towns.
If u are talking about the ability to craft and place ur own buildings, then I agree, but this is something I dont mind waiting for and from what we have been led to believe this is coming.
If u are thinking about the ability to place a building anywhere on the map, then that is a waste of a feature.
As shadowbane showed us, indvididual housing outside of the protection of a guild tree was useless, noone did it and only as a joke, since that house would probably be gone by morning.
And besides YOUR house might be the bees knees for YOU, but its just pixels to everyone else.
Well I prefer Logic myself, at least as a base for my arguments.
He can post his opinion all he wants, and I can post mine, but without a logical base its just opinion vs opinion, useless rethoric or just so much Sophism.
-Darkstar
Sorry it took a while for me to get back to you on this one Darkstar, and I fear we're derailing this thread, but I have to point this out nonetheless and I hope avid followers of this thread will forgive me.
The three main rhetorical appeals are:
1) Logos - an appeal to logic
2) Pathos - an appeal to the emotions
3) Ethos - an appeal to ethics or credibility
By practicing logic, which I do commend you on, you are indeniably practicing a form of rhetoric. Rhetoric is not Sophism. Sophism is a way of using rhetoric, not rhetoric itself.
The Sophists used rhetoric as a persuasive tool to win any argument. They would argue whatever side they could win, regardless of any care to which side might be morally "right" or "wrong". So Sophism came to be seen (especially by Plato) as deceitful and untrustworthy. And because the Sophists used rhetoric (albeit somewhat deceitfully), rhetoric got branded with this same label.
In reality though, any argument uses some form of rhetoric, be it for good or ill.
Let's talk about "fluff" features... Features keep getting cut out. Fanboys continue to spout that "this is a PvP game - those features are carebear! go back to wow n00b!!".
Unfortunately, when you keep taking features out, you eventually end up with what is essentially a FPS game with a few RPG aspects.
Right now, players can amass gold. Some of them can form clans. They can build reputations as feared pks or valiant defenders of the innocent.
Unfortunately, the important features such as an immersive crafting system, player housing, affordable player sailing (i'm talking about small one-mast sailboats), an interesting mount system, animal taming, and various community-oriented features have been left out.
This will leave the game feeling like a bare-bones alpha release. There is simply too much missing from the world. If players ONLY want pvp and don't care about anything else, do you think they'll be playing a MMO? No. It's much more likely they'll head over to Counter Strike, or even Guild Wars, where you're easily able to create a max level character and start PvPing.
But you say, PvP means nothing in guild wars and it means something in darkfall because darkfall has full loot and guild wars does not. I agree with you here. PvP is much more fun when you actually have something to gain by killing the other person. For the record, there's much to gain for being skilled at PvP in guild wars, but I won't go into that here. Spend even 20 minutes researching the game and you'd know about the various rewards and progression.
Now let's get to the issue of full loot. Full loot is an amazing thing. In UO, it worked wonderfully. Of course, they eventually started adding "blessed" stuff, and then they even introduced "item insurance" (which - btw - didn't work for shit. "insurance" should mean that your loot still drops, only you're reimbursed. it didn't drop at all). Shadowbane had partial loot, such that everything in your pack could be looted, but nothing you had equipped. PvP was very meaningful in shadowbane, arguably moreso than anything else in the game.
So, to say that full loot implies that PvP has meaning, it must follow that the loot you expect to be acquiring from your victims is actually worth something. This is where Darkfall is confused. There's nothing really of value to loot from anyone. Sure, you can loot their armor, but we've heard many times that armor and weapons won't be very difficult to obtain. We don't want this to become a game where pvp skill is determined by the items you're wearing rather than your actual skill. Or, perhaps you end up looting someone's gold. Great. Now you can buy more armor and potions to pvp more.
The point is, if you ONLY want to PvP, you shouldn't be playing this game. You shouldn't be playing any MMO. You should be playing a game that lets you PvP all the time, without worrying about skilling up and acquiring gear. Think about it.
By that logic, everyone playing Darkfall wants more than just PvP. Unfortunately, Darkfall has managed to offer little more than PvP, especially for the average player. Certain guilds may be able to acquire Clan Cities and build them up (through an insane amount of grinding, and requiring really no pvp until the city gets seiged), but most players will simply end up with nothing to spend their hard earned gold on, except more pvp.
Darkfall is missing the casual elements that made UO so great. Shadowbane was missing them too, which is why the world always felt so dead and empty (unless of course there was a battle going on). The point is, there needs to be things for PvPers to do, other than PvP. In UO, the best duelists always had a nice house full of trophies and other rares that they'd acquired through duels and other PvP activities. They might sit in town all day showing off their rare items. Let's be honest here, PvP is really about two things: Knowing you're the best, and telling everyone else you're the best.
When a PvPer was bored of PvP, he might hop on his alt character and do some lumberjacking, maybe to build furniture to decorate his house. He might hop on his fisherman and hunt for treasure. Meanwhile, he knew that if someone decided to pk one of his alts, he could hop on his main and destroy them. In fact, some people might back off after simply hearing who his main was.
What I'm trying to say is, there was more for a PvPer to do than just PvP. These other things are what made the world feel like a full and complete environment, something living. I feel like Darkfall is lacking that "alive" feeling.
Dont be upset and sad cause you were wrong on Darkfall and i and the fans were right.
Funniest part in your wall of text is that you that havent played the game, as i have, still is so dead sure on your opinions.
This game isnt for everyone, thats for sure, but for the one that love a open zeamless world with full loot and PvP and a game with some consequences, for them - Darkfall is alot of fun.
And remember having fun is the main part in any game.
Originally posted by Aragon100 Originally posted by Polarization Let's talk about "fluff" features... Features keep getting cut out. Fanboys continue to spout that "this is a PvP game - those features are carebear! go back to wow n00b!!".Unfortunately, when you keep taking features out, you eventually end up with what is essentially a FPS game with a few RPG aspects.Right now, players can amass gold. Some of them can form clans. They can build reputations as feared pks or valiant defenders of the innocent.Unfortunately, the important features such as an immersive crafting system, player housing, affordable player sailing (i'm talking about small one-mast sailboats), an interesting mount system, animal taming, and various community-oriented features have been left out.This will leave the game feeling like a bare-bones alpha release. There is simply too much missing from the world. If players ONLY want pvp and don't care about anything else, do you think they'll be playing a MMO? No. It's much more likely they'll head over to Counter Strike, or even Guild Wars, where you're easily able to create a max level character and start PvPing.But you say, PvP means nothing in guild wars and it means something in darkfall because darkfall has full loot and guild wars does not. I agree with you here. PvP is much more fun when you actually have something to gain by killing the other person. For the record, there's much to gain for being skilled at PvP in guild wars, but I won't go into that here. Spend even 20 minutes researching the game and you'd know about the various rewards and progression.Now let's get to the issue of full loot. Full loot is an amazing thing. In UO, it worked wonderfully. Of course, they eventually started adding "blessed" stuff, and then they even introduced "item insurance" (which - btw - didn't work for shit. "insurance" should mean that your loot still drops, only you're reimbursed. it didn't drop at all). Shadowbane had partial loot, such that everything in your pack could be looted, but nothing you had equipped. PvP was very meaningful in shadowbane, arguably moreso than anything else in the game.So, to say that full loot implies that PvP has meaning, it must follow that the loot you expect to be acquiring from your victims is actually worth something. This is where Darkfall is confused. There's nothing really of value to loot from anyone. Sure, you can loot their armor, but we've heard many times that armor and weapons won't be very difficult to obtain. We don't want this to become a game where pvp skill is determined by the items you're wearing rather than your actual skill. Or, perhaps you end up looting someone's gold. Great. Now you can buy more armor and potions to pvp more.The point is, if you ONLY want to PvP, you shouldn't be playing this game. You shouldn't be playing any MMO. You should be playing a game that lets you PvP all the time, without worrying about skilling up and acquiring gear. Think about it.By that logic, everyone playing Darkfall wants more than just PvP. Unfortunately, Darkfall has managed to offer little more than PvP, especially for the average player. Certain guilds may be able to acquire Clan Cities and build them up (through an insane amount of grinding, and requiring really no pvp until the city gets seiged), but most players will simply end up with nothing to spend their hard earned gold on, except more pvp.Darkfall is missing the casual elements that made UO so great. Shadowbane was missing them too, which is why the world always felt so dead and empty (unless of course there was a battle going on). The point is, there needs to be things for PvPers to do, other than PvP. In UO, the best duelists always had a nice house full of trophies and other rares that they'd acquired through duels and other PvP activities. They might sit in town all day showing off their rare items. Let's be honest here, PvP is really about two things: Knowing you're the best, and telling everyone else you're the best.When a PvPer was bored of PvP, he might hop on his alt character and do some lumberjacking, maybe to build furniture to decorate his house. He might hop on his fisherman and hunt for treasure. Meanwhile, he knew that if someone decided to pk one of his alts, he could hop on his main and destroy them. In fact, some people might back off after simply hearing who his main was.What I'm trying to say is, there was more for a PvPer to do than just PvP. These other things are what made the world feel like a full and complete environment, something living. I feel like Darkfall is lacking that "alive" feeling.
Dont be upset and sad cause you were wrong on Darkfall and i and the fans were right. Funniest part is that you that havent played the game, as i have, still is so dead sure on your opinions. This game isnt for everyone, thats for sure, but for the one that love a open zeamless world with full loot and PvP and a game with some consequences, for them - Darkfall is alot of fun. And remember having fun is the main part in any game.
why should he be sad...the fans werent right. all the fans were right about is 2 things: they got to play beta, and its supposed to be releasing tomorrow. The fans now have one universal excuse: "you havent played the game" Well I have seen it in person being played at a friends house who got into beta and all i saw was garbage. It sure is sad how the fans praise a game that is run fairly poorly, but cant even promise all the features they promised many times in the past. So enjoy this "game" while it lasts because i know it wont outlast other garbage games like SWG. :P
When you classified it as "bare-bones alpha" you made me snort. Your rhetoric is as fallacious as Tasos'.
PS. have you played that game? Your decrying lacks substance and is not worth reading.
PS. Check the link from the OP and you will see it was written by a beta tester who played the game.
I was a beta tester and can inform you that Darkfall is alot of fun.
Did you play the beta?
Well considering all the other attempts at informing and personal assurances you have made in the past regarding Darkfall please excuse me if I don't value that one very highly without any substantiation.
Perhaps if you spent the time to articulate your reasoning to the extent this beta reviewer has instead of resorting to one line dismissive and irrelevant "the game is a lot of fun and good, I am right because I was in beta, you were not so you are wrong" type statements I might reconsider.
Of course that would require you to actually read and comprehend the article in question and formulate a relevant response, instead of just quoting it.
PS. I don't see anyone disputing that Darkfall is probably "fun" to play for some people, I'm sure it is, the question is how long will it be fun for most people and is that fun really worth the asking price plus monthly subscription, and will there be enough people who agree with you that it is to financially support the game long term, I personally hope there will be because I would still like the option to try the game at a later date, but if this beta tester is portraying an accurate view of the game as it is now I don't think that seems very likely.
Comments
I dunno. Maybe your hopes were set too outrageously high. Heres the problem so many people skip over these kinds of things and only see 500 SKILLS!!!!, you need to realise these things are ever changing and no mmo I have ever played has everything they said they would on the FAQ.
if thats a problem for you, maybe you are playing the wrong genre of games.
I have been playing beta for a month now and the game is everything I figured it would be.
Lol, nice retcon there. Do you work for Aventurine?
Guild towns and player housing are two separate features; the game has one of them, it doesn't have the other.
The reality is that they've made an FPS with a *cough* skill system *cough* tacked onto it. This is ok, but they should've advertised it that way from the beginning, not as a big open world where you do anything and everything. The only thing you can do is kill or be killed.
I enjoy it for what it is, but I am disappointed that it doesn't even have a third of the functionality of a game that was released over a decade ago (Ultima).
No NPC hirelings? Like do they plan on adding them? I mean for atleast being able to have them vendor items players have created.
This game has a great concept, I'd really like to see if it is at all possible to play this game as a pure crafter, I mean I love PvP, but would atleast like the option to possibly have a monopoly on creating the best items for players. What I mean is maybe gain fame not just for prowess in battle, but for making great items for affordable prices.
Dak Masters says: "You know Jarl Sandwind in town of Mercury Junction? He's got great deals on human weapons and armor."
well, yes. And no.
PvP is interesting when it's contextually fit in the world; players fight other players because there is a greater reason, often interwoven with the main storyline of the world. And those few who like to play the evil-doers face the consequences.
But, most importantly...PvP is there to differentiate between a different playstyle, the PvE. See, in order to have a PvP aspect, you need to have an entirely other aspect (PvE), compared to which the gains and risks are more significant. Darkfall completely and utterly misses the PvE aspect.
When a game is only left to be a PvP themed game, it closely resembles an FPS game.
exactly, and if true, its that mindless concept that will kill the game, i won't know until i experience it for myself but there is no way i'm paying a sub for a shallow fantasy fps when there are others that are free.
Lol, nice retcon there. Do you work for Aventurine?
Guild towns and player housing are two separate features; the game has one of them, it doesn't have the other.
The reality is that they've made an FPS with a *cough* skill system *cough* tacked onto it. This is ok, but they should've advertised it that way from the beginning, not as a big open world where you do anything and everything. The only thing you can do is kill or be killed.
I enjoy it for what it is, but I am disappointed that it doesn't even have a third of the functionality of a game that was released over a decade ago (Ultima).
Well technically no.
A guild hall is a player placed building, as are the other buildings currently available for guild towns.
If u are talking about the ability to craft and place ur own buildings, then I agree, but this is something I dont mind waiting for and from what we have been led to believe this is coming.
If u are thinking about the ability to place a building anywhere on the map, then that is a waste of a feature.
As shadowbane showed us, indvididual housing outside of the protection of a guild tree was useless, noone did it and only as a joke, since that house would probably be gone by morning.
And besides YOUR house might be the bees knees for YOU, but its just pixels to everyone else.
-Darkstar
Well I prefer Logic myself, at least as a base for my arguments.
He can post his opinion all he wants, and I can post mine, but without a logical base its just opinion vs opinion, useless rethoric or just so much Sophism.
-Darkstar
Sorry it took a while for me to get back to you on this one Darkstar, and I fear we're derailing this thread, but I have to point this out nonetheless and I hope avid followers of this thread will forgive me.
The three main rhetorical appeals are:
1) Logos - an appeal to logic
2) Pathos - an appeal to the emotions
3) Ethos - an appeal to ethics or credibility
By practicing logic, which I do commend you on, you are indeniably practicing a form of rhetoric. Rhetoric is not Sophism. Sophism is a way of using rhetoric, not rhetoric itself.
The Sophists used rhetoric as a persuasive tool to win any argument. They would argue whatever side they could win, regardless of any care to which side might be morally "right" or "wrong". So Sophism came to be seen (especially by Plato) as deceitful and untrustworthy. And because the Sophists used rhetoric (albeit somewhat deceitfully), rhetoric got branded with this same label.
In reality though, any argument uses some form of rhetoric, be it for good or ill.
When you classified it as "bare-bones alpha" you made me snort.
Your rhetoric is as fallacious as Tasos'.
PS. have you played that game? Your decrying lacks substance and is not worth reading.
_______________________________________________
Games looking forward to: Fallen Earth, Mortal Online
The noob formally not known as not being the formally not unkown known APEist; The Stone Cold Killer of Tarq.
PS. Check the link from the OP and you will see it was written by a beta tester who played the game.
Dont be upset and sad cause you were wrong on Darkfall and i and the fans were right.
Funniest part in your wall of text is that you that havent played the game, as i have, still is so dead sure on your opinions.
This game isnt for everyone, thats for sure, but for the one that love a open zeamless world with full loot and PvP and a game with some consequences, for them - Darkfall is alot of fun.
And remember having fun is the main part in any game.
PS. Check the link from the OP and you will see it was written by a beta tester who played the game.
I was a beta tester and can inform you that Darkfall is alot of fun.
Did you play the beta?
Dont be upset and sad cause you were wrong on Darkfall and i and the fans were right.
Funniest part is that you that havent played the game, as i have, still is so dead sure on your opinions.
This game isnt for everyone, thats for sure, but for the one that love a open zeamless world with full loot and PvP and a game with some consequences, for them - Darkfall is alot of fun.
And remember having fun is the main part in any game.
why should he be sad...the fans werent right. all the fans were right about is 2 things: they got to play beta, and its supposed to be releasing tomorrow. The fans now have one universal excuse: "you havent played the game" Well I have seen it in person being played at a friends house who got into beta and all i saw was garbage. It sure is sad how the fans praise a game that is run fairly poorly, but cant even promise all the features they promised many times in the past. So enjoy this "game" while it lasts because i know it wont outlast other garbage games like SWG. :P
PS. Check the link from the OP and you will see it was written by a beta tester who played the game.
I was a beta tester and can inform you that Darkfall is alot of fun.
Did you play the beta?
Well considering all the other attempts at informing and personal assurances you have made in the past regarding Darkfall please excuse me if I don't value that one very highly without any substantiation.
Perhaps if you spent the time to articulate your reasoning to the extent this beta reviewer has instead of resorting to one line dismissive and irrelevant "the game is a lot of fun and good, I am right because I was in beta, you were not so you are wrong" type statements I might reconsider.
Of course that would require you to actually read and comprehend the article in question and formulate a relevant response, instead of just quoting it.
PS. I don't see anyone disputing that Darkfall is probably "fun" to play for some people, I'm sure it is, the question is how long will it be fun for most people and is that fun really worth the asking price plus monthly subscription, and will there be enough people who agree with you that it is to financially support the game long term, I personally hope there will be because I would still like the option to try the game at a later date, but if this beta tester is portraying an accurate view of the game as it is now I don't think that seems very likely.