I know, I've tried. But from what I can tell is that forums, account management, and mIRC are all down. Any other ideas to help me out? Answer is, no, they charged everyones account before they gave them a chance to cancel. They had account management up for a few hours this morning, VERY early when most people were sleeping or at work. They knew what they were doing....
Get off the forum and call your credit card company already.
Yea because my bank's employees stay in the office all night long......
He said Credit Card Company... NOT Bank.
Credit Card Companies do have 24 hour service. You should have a number to call - it should be with your contract.
Unless like me he uses a debit card from a bank or credit union.
Thank God some people still have a fully functioning brain here.
I know, I've tried. But from what I can tell is that forums, account management, and mIRC are all down. Any other ideas to help me out? Answer is, no, they charged everyones account before they gave them a chance to cancel. They had account management up for a few hours this morning, VERY early when most people were sleeping or at work. They knew what they were doing....
Get off the forum and call your credit card company already.
Yea because my bank's employees stay in the office all night long......
He said Credit Card Company... NOT Bank.
Credit Card Companies do have 24 hour service. You should have a number to call - it should be with your contract.
Unless like me he uses a debit card from a bank or credit union.
Thank God some people still have a fully functioning brain here.
You mean like a "VISA" or "MASTERCARD"?
I have owned many credit cards and held corporate cards too.
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
WOW....it'slike a vicious cycle of mmo launches. I don't think you have anything to worry about OP. i don't doubt with the current state of mmo's that many players are ready to have a look at this game and as a result i'ts quite possible that they are worried about how to deal with all the players they didn't anticipate. it looks like a very interesting game. i find it likely that they are now worried about not having enough servers to deal with all the people. like you im sure they are worried about players logging in and experiencing the exact things you talked about.
if you all thought this was gonna go smoothly right off the bat it's time to buy an x box.....
That game belong to the "underground"... and noone in underground bear crying pusses ...
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration ______\m/_____ LordOfDarkDesire
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel? Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems. Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel? Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems. Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
I find it very convenient that the account page is not accessible during the time when most people might get the urge to cancel, being that the game wasn't released when it was suppose to and stuff.
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel? Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems. Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
I find it very convenient that the account page is not accessible during the time when most people might get the urge to cancel, being that the game wasn't released when it was suppose to and stuff.
yup pretty neat trick, huh? Wonder what else were in store for...
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel? Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems. Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
Chase will give your money back, which I can only assume now extends to any bank that Chase happened to buy. They don't take kindly to scams, though they can't reverse the charges, which actually works out better when it is a scam because who will be seeing the bad side of a bank.
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel? Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems. Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
Chase will give your money back, which I can only assume now extends to any bank that Chase happened to buy. They don't take kindly to scams, though they can't reverse the charges, which actually works out better when it is a scam because who will be seeing the bad side of a bank.
Where did Chase come from? They buy MC? Have no idea, don't get to watch much TV or read the paper.
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
Same thing happened in DnL. Let me spell it out for you....Did you order an item? Were you delivered the item in usable form and were you able to use the item when promised by either an implied or stated contractual agreement? If the answer is no then it is a fraudulent charge by AV and your CC / bank will reverse the charge, assuming you don't have some BS international transaction clause.
The billing company for Farcelan tried to block charge backs on DnL by stating that the program was delivered on time. Well no one could use it to the degree that was promised so it was outside the terms of the agreement and they got chargeback after chargeback rammed down their throats.
Hell just for shits and grins, file a formal complaint with the IC3 if you don't have any luck. At least it will make you feel better to know you took some kind of formal action against the a-holes.
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
Same thing happened in DnL. Let me spell it out for you....Did you order an item? Were you delivered the item in usable form and were you able to use the item when promised by either an implied or stated contractual agreement? If the answer is no then it is a fraudulent charge by AV and your CC / bank will reverse the charge, assuming you don't have some BS international transaction clause.
The billing company for Farcelan tried to block charge backs on DnL by stating that the program was delivered on time. Well no one could use it to the degree that was promised so it was outside the terms of the agreement and they got chargeback after chargeback rammed down their throats.
Hell just for shits and grins, file a formal complaint with the IC3 if you don't have any luck. At least it will make you feel better to know you took some kind of formal action against the a-holes.
That sounds good to me. I will for sure look into that. I know me, and I tend to get lazy and pissed off at first then usually say fuck it. But just the idea of my money in their hands is annoying me.....
What is everyones thoughts on this? Because the longer this chaos goes on now and the servers remain unopened.. the more plausible I see something very similar to just what I described happening here. I am beginning to think that all the doubters, skeptics, and even trolls may have been 100% right all along. I hope I am wrong.
I had my fair share of "told you so" moments in the last few days. But noboy, not even the devs will be 100% right. But the business abilities of Aventurine could be gauged very well by the data available.
1) About everybody knows the rule of thumb that when the toilet of a company is dirty and untended you should better look for another place to eat, since the kitchen has good chances to be dirty and untended, too. Why is that so? Because a toilet is EASY to keep clean in comparison to a kitchen in full operation and when the staff doesn't even manage that easy task they very probably don't manage the complex task. It shows a lack of care and organisation.
The same goes for AV and their website. There is NO excuse to keep it in a shitty state like that. It shows a lck of care and organisation. Keeping a website up do date in design and information is EASY compared to developing, launching and running a MMO. When they don't even manage that easy task... You get the drift.
And also, as in the restaurant with a shitty toilet it is not said that everything about the game or the food is bad. Some meals and features may be ok or even taste good, but there is something rotten in the base of the enterprise and that will surface only too soon.
2) PR is NOT unimportant. Keeping the fanbase informed in an at least half-honest ways is one very easy method to prepare for disaster and keep the spirits up. But months and months of silence on the official site (combined with 1) to top it) kan only be taken or even defended when you are VERY delusional and suffer of a severe case of cognitive dissonance. Many people believe that DF is the saviour of the MMO world. The game might fail just because of this. It is more than unlikely that it can live up to the vast towers of expectations and thus a great deal of the now fanbois (namely the younger ones) will be disappointed very soon. And they usually grow into really spiteful "haters" then.
Don't give up hope if you paid by CC and you want your money back.
The money transfer takes a couple of days. The merchant gets notification that the money is 'paid' but they can still stop payment for a couple of days.
Also, if the charge is fraudulent (in this case if DF never releases) then that is a whole different issue again.
CC companies are exactly the sort you want on your side in this case. They are international and will chase debts and fraud like rabid dogs.
Please stop relying on your credit card company or the law to handle your matters. Peope have already forwarned you about Tasos and what happened to "other" companies tha tried this sh!t.
Aventurine does not have a publisher, because the publisher pulled out after seeing the game, so they had to delay the release of Darkfall a whole month, while Aventurine figured out how to handle subscriptions themselves. (IE: billing department and handle orders and credit card transsactions). Using a Paypal alternative to actually handle the money transactions is obvious choice, but they still internally have to set up and make some kind of account software, that traditionally is handled by the Distributor.
This whole production is one hodge-podge "wing it" as you go developent and stinks to high heaven..!
After knowing all of this you still want to PRE-ORDER the game before anyone has even logged in, then buyer beware...!
Don't give up hope if you paid by CC and you want your money back.
The money transfer takes a couple of days. The merchant gets notification that the money is 'paid' but they can still stop payment for a couple of days. Also, if the charge is fraudulent (in this case if DF never releases) then that is a whole different issue again.
CC companies are exactly the sort you want on your side in this case. They are international and will chase debts and fraud like rabid dogs.
Good luck.
Yea I'm not stressing. I like to flip and stir shit up, especially when they lie to us and its so obvious but nobody believes.....
What is everyones thoughts on this? Because the longer this chaos goes on now and the servers remain unopened.. the more plausible I see something very similar to just what I described happening here. I am beginning to think that all the doubters, skeptics, and even trolls may have been 100% right all along. I hope I am wrong.
For the next games, wait and don't preorder.
"We told you so" but you bought the game, "thanks to" the fanboys.
Ougarit
Called Troll by the FB
*********************
Red Flags:
- no more publisher
- closed BT, no Open beta
- NDA lifted 1 week before the release
- no stress test
- few news on the website (very few)
- 8 years of devs, always delayed but "it 's the perfect game" for sure, so perfect they had to delay it many years and they don't even have a publisher.
- no boxes, 50euros for a game made by an indie dev, without box etc ? Same price than great games made by huge Cies ? These guys have big balls for sure LOL
- no paypal etc system
- details about prices, subs only at launch
= no CB no Mastercard. No payment, nothing, not even a Ct for this cy. We told you SOOOOO
When I'm pre ordering an MMO, i'm usually making sure I get myself informed about it to a certain level before.
In this case, it was more than clear AV is working on the edge at all times with a high potential of massive problems on release, especially when it comes to billing/accounting ands server issues.
This is exactly what heppend, whereas the client is behaving rather solid as reproted beforehand.
In that regard, what is currently happeneing is perfectly what had to be expected, and for my feelings, it's still far from the worst case I'd have come up with before.
Thus, the ongoing things are what I had to expect when forging out my money in order to take the little risk on my end and give it a try. If a company messes up in such a way, I don't have the habit to take it personally. I stick around, see if things get better and eventually, if it doesn't recover in a feasible timeframe, I'll move on:
It's not in my interest to go and do any addtional harm to those that obviously treid to release the best game they can by ignoring the information I had well ahead and reclaim my money. It was a risk I took knowlingly and willingly, so I just write it off. What do I really win by eliminating my risk by adding it up onto the already massive risk on the Developers side by bailing out of a risky deal thorugh some backdoor?
Whoever comes up with BS like "we got to show the industry blablabla" is just trying to justify individual greediness and/or overly hurt nerd feelings to himself and to others, nothing more and nothing lest. Not my way, I use to stand by my decisions and pull through.
If you guys do call your CC banks and dispute charges, I dont think the CC will allow further transactions by that specific company say if you go back and decide to purchase the game at a later date. You may be able to call them to resolve this, but keep in mind if you dispute and then go back say next week to purchase the game they may block the draft from your account.
I wouldnt be surprised if a flag goes up if people across the board with different credit card companies start disputing charges from a specific bank that hasnt delivered their product. could be bad news
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
Comments
Get off the forum and call your credit card company already.
Yea because my bank's employees stay in the office all night long......
He said Credit Card Company... NOT Bank.
Credit Card Companies do have 24 hour service. You should have a number to call - it should be with your contract.
Unless like me he uses a debit card from a bank or credit union.
Thank God some people still have a fully functioning brain here.
Get off the forum and call your credit card company already.
Yea because my bank's employees stay in the office all night long......
He said Credit Card Company... NOT Bank.
Credit Card Companies do have 24 hour service. You should have a number to call - it should be with your contract.
Unless like me he uses a debit card from a bank or credit union.
Thank God some people still have a fully functioning brain here.
You mean like a "VISA" or "MASTERCARD"?
I have owned many credit cards and held corporate cards too.
But do tell - what card do you have?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Logo is Mastercard, which is hooked to my debit account. MC just backs it up, as far as my account being charged that goes through the bank. Been through this whole ordeal before and got nowhere. Not with this, with somethign else.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
WOW....it'slike a vicious cycle of mmo launches. I don't think you have anything to worry about OP. i don't doubt with the current state of mmo's that many players are ready to have a look at this game and as a result i'ts quite possible that they are worried about how to deal with all the players they didn't anticipate. it looks like a very interesting game. i find it likely that they are now worried about not having enough servers to deal with all the people. like you im sure they are worried about players logging in and experiencing the exact things you talked about.
if you all thought this was gonna go smoothly right off the bat it's time to buy an x box.....
Wait, so you're trying to tell me that there is no way to cancel?
Hmmm, The plot thickens, it seems.
Call your bank first thing in the morning and put a stop on the payment or whatever.
That game belong to the "underground"... and noone in underground bear crying pusses ...
Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
______\m/_____
LordOfDarkDesire
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
I find it very convenient that the account page is not accessible during the time when most people might get the urge to cancel, being that the game wasn't released when it was suppose to and stuff.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
I find it very convenient that the account page is not accessible during the time when most people might get the urge to cancel, being that the game wasn't released when it was suppose to and stuff.
yup pretty neat trick, huh? Wonder what else were in store for...
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
Chase will give your money back, which I can only assume now extends to any bank that Chase happened to buy. They don't take kindly to scams, though they can't reverse the charges, which actually works out better when it is a scam because who will be seeing the bad side of a bank.
they have their money already, yea, seems my bank is quick to give my shit away. Didn't even call me to authorize an international order which they are supposed to. Not that I would have cancelled it at that time but w/e....
Chase will give your money back, which I can only assume now extends to any bank that Chase happened to buy. They don't take kindly to scams, though they can't reverse the charges, which actually works out better when it is a scam because who will be seeing the bad side of a bank.
Where did Chase come from? They buy MC? Have no idea, don't get to watch much TV or read the paper.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
Same thing happened in DnL. Let me spell it out for you....Did you order an item? Were you delivered the item in usable form and were you able to use the item when promised by either an implied or stated contractual agreement? If the answer is no then it is a fraudulent charge by AV and your CC / bank will reverse the charge, assuming you don't have some BS international transaction clause.
The billing company for Farcelan tried to block charge backs on DnL by stating that the program was delivered on time. Well no one could use it to the degree that was promised so it was outside the terms of the agreement and they got chargeback after chargeback rammed down their throats.
Hell just for shits and grins, file a formal complaint with the IC3 if you don't have any luck. At least it will make you feel better to know you took some kind of formal action against the a-holes.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
Yea, I'm going to be, but I authorized the payment and put all my information in. There really is little they can do since its not a fraudulent charge, it was a stupid charge.....
Same thing happened in DnL. Let me spell it out for you....Did you order an item? Were you delivered the item in usable form and were you able to use the item when promised by either an implied or stated contractual agreement? If the answer is no then it is a fraudulent charge by AV and your CC / bank will reverse the charge, assuming you don't have some BS international transaction clause.
The billing company for Farcelan tried to block charge backs on DnL by stating that the program was delivered on time. Well no one could use it to the degree that was promised so it was outside the terms of the agreement and they got chargeback after chargeback rammed down their throats.
Hell just for shits and grins, file a formal complaint with the IC3 if you don't have any luck. At least it will make you feel better to know you took some kind of formal action against the a-holes.
That sounds good to me. I will for sure look into that. I know me, and I tend to get lazy and pissed off at first then usually say fuck it. But just the idea of my money in their hands is annoying me.....
I had my fair share of "told you so" moments in the last few days. But noboy, not even the devs will be 100% right. But the business abilities of Aventurine could be gauged very well by the data available.
1) About everybody knows the rule of thumb that when the toilet of a company is dirty and untended you should better look for another place to eat, since the kitchen has good chances to be dirty and untended, too. Why is that so? Because a toilet is EASY to keep clean in comparison to a kitchen in full operation and when the staff doesn't even manage that easy task they very probably don't manage the complex task. It shows a lack of care and organisation.
The same goes for AV and their website. There is NO excuse to keep it in a shitty state like that. It shows a lck of care and organisation. Keeping a website up do date in design and information is EASY compared to developing, launching and running a MMO. When they don't even manage that easy task... You get the drift.
And also, as in the restaurant with a shitty toilet it is not said that everything about the game or the food is bad. Some meals and features may be ok or even taste good, but there is something rotten in the base of the enterprise and that will surface only too soon.
2) PR is NOT unimportant. Keeping the fanbase informed in an at least half-honest ways is one very easy method to prepare for disaster and keep the spirits up. But months and months of silence on the official site (combined with 1) to top it) kan only be taken or even defended when you are VERY delusional and suffer of a severe case of cognitive dissonance. Many people believe that DF is the saviour of the MMO world. The game might fail just because of this. It is more than unlikely that it can live up to the vast towers of expectations and thus a great deal of the now fanbois (namely the younger ones) will be disappointed very soon. And they usually grow into really spiteful "haters" then.
Don't give up hope if you paid by CC and you want your money back.
The money transfer takes a couple of days. The merchant gets notification that the money is 'paid' but they can still stop payment for a couple of days.
Also, if the charge is fraudulent (in this case if DF never releases) then that is a whole different issue again.
CC companies are exactly the sort you want on your side in this case. They are international and will chase debts and fraud like rabid dogs.
Good luck.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Buyer beware!
Please stop relying on your credit card company or the law to handle your matters. Peope have already forwarned you about Tasos and what happened to "other" companies tha tried this sh!t.
Aventurine does not have a publisher, because the publisher pulled out after seeing the game, so they had to delay the release of Darkfall a whole month, while Aventurine figured out how to handle subscriptions themselves. (IE: billing department and handle orders and credit card transsactions). Using a Paypal alternative to actually handle the money transactions is obvious choice, but they still internally have to set up and make some kind of account software, that traditionally is handled by the Distributor.
This whole production is one hodge-podge "wing it" as you go developent and stinks to high heaven..!
After knowing all of this you still want to PRE-ORDER the game before anyone has even logged in, then buyer beware...!
____________________________
Yea I'm not stressing. I like to flip and stir shit up, especially when they lie to us and its so obvious but nobody believes.....
If I get it back would be nice, if not no biggie.
Try Mastercard then ... it costs nothing to try.
This is international to... so Mastercard more likely to help than a local bank.
I didn't know that I could call Visa and have them reverse charges for my Debit card... Thanks for the info
-Almerel
Hello my old friend.
This is like shooting yourself in the foot and then arguing that guns are bad because of it. Noone forced you to fork over "$53".
You mean they've been working on this game for YEARS and still got caught with their pants down? That doesn't bode very well.
For the next games, wait and don't preorder.
"We told you so" but you bought the game, "thanks to" the fanboys.
Ougarit
Called Troll by the FB
*********************
Red Flags:
- no more publisher
- closed BT, no Open beta
- NDA lifted 1 week before the release
- no stress test
- few news on the website (very few)
- 8 years of devs, always delayed but "it 's the perfect game" for sure, so perfect they had to delay it many years and they don't even have a publisher.
- no boxes, 50euros for a game made by an indie dev, without box etc ? Same price than great games made by huge Cies ? These guys have big balls for sure LOL
- no paypal etc system
- details about prices, subs only at launch
= no CB no Mastercard. No payment, nothing, not even a Ct for this cy. We told you SOOOOO
*****************************************************************************************************************
"This is like shooting yourself in the foot and then arguing that guns are bad because of it. Noone forced you to fork over "$53"."
yeah lol
When I'm pre ordering an MMO, i'm usually making sure I get myself informed about it to a certain level before.
In this case, it was more than clear AV is working on the edge at all times with a high potential of massive problems on release, especially when it comes to billing/accounting ands server issues.
This is exactly what heppend, whereas the client is behaving rather solid as reproted beforehand.
In that regard, what is currently happeneing is perfectly what had to be expected, and for my feelings, it's still far from the worst case I'd have come up with before.
Thus, the ongoing things are what I had to expect when forging out my money in order to take the little risk on my end and give it a try. If a company messes up in such a way, I don't have the habit to take it personally. I stick around, see if things get better and eventually, if it doesn't recover in a feasible timeframe, I'll move on:
It's not in my interest to go and do any addtional harm to those that obviously treid to release the best game they can by ignoring the information I had well ahead and reclaim my money. It was a risk I took knowlingly and willingly, so I just write it off. What do I really win by eliminating my risk by adding it up onto the already massive risk on the Developers side by bailing out of a risky deal thorugh some backdoor?
Whoever comes up with BS like "we got to show the industry blablabla" is just trying to justify individual greediness and/or overly hurt nerd feelings to himself and to others, nothing more and nothing lest. Not my way, I use to stand by my decisions and pull through.
If you guys do call your CC banks and dispute charges, I dont think the CC will allow further transactions by that specific company say if you go back and decide to purchase the game at a later date. You may be able to call them to resolve this, but keep in mind if you dispute and then go back say next week to purchase the game they may block the draft from your account.
I wouldnt be surprised if a flag goes up if people across the board with different credit card companies start disputing charges from a specific bank that hasnt delivered their product. could be bad news
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."