Personally I think it will be quite some time before we get to see if MO will "wipe the floor with DF." I can only hope by the time MO releases AV will have fixed all/most of their problems and we'll have a nice little competition. I believe only then will we see what these two games can really bring to the table in the world of future MMO's.
In the alpha flagging system (there's a pdf, you'll have to search the official forums to find it) it basically states that red/murderer flagged characters may be subject to statloss. A dev has said that if you're killed while flagged in that way, you'll induce statloss. Whether it's temporary or permanent (until you train them back) and how much skill you lose is unkown at this point.
I think that at least the reasoning behind the stat loss makes sense. In an open PvP game there has to be a mechanism in place to prevent the asshats from doing what they do best--act like total douche bags.
It's hard to create a real open PvP MMORPG simply because the risks and the repercussions of real life criminal acts are virtually impossible to recreate in a video game.
So the devs have to get creative to make being a murderer as undesirable as possible, if the goal is to imitate the real world. Unless of course the whole point of the game is to senslesly murder other players then it really doesn't matter.
In the alpha flagging system (there's a pdf, you'll have to search the official forums to find it) it basically states that red/murderer flagged characters may be subject to statloss. A dev has said that if you're killed while flagged in that way, you'll induce statloss. Whether it's temporary or permanent (until you train them back) and how much skill you lose is unkown at this point.
I think that at least the reasoning behind the stat loss makes sense. In an open PvP game there has to be a mechanism in place to prevent the asshats from doing what they do best--act like total douche bags.
It's hard to create a real open PvP MMORPG simply because the risks and the repercussions of real life criminal acts are virtually impossible to recreate in a video game.
So the devs have to get creative to make being a murderer as undesirable as possible, if the goal is to imitate the real world. Unless of course the whole point of the game is to senslesly murder other players then it really doesn't matter.
Exactly. You don't want to be killed while you're still flagged as a murderer, but the skilled pk'ers don't suffer punishment until they are finally brought down.
Neutral/Blue players are innocent (well, as innocent as they get) and it’s not ok for you to damage them. You may not steal from them, or cast suspicious spells on them either. Nor poison them. If you do so, you become Allowed/Grey. Kill enough of them and you will eventually be flagged as a Murderer/Red. Allowed/Gray players have behaved badly in some way against you or someone else in the last few minutes, meaning you can attack them without becoming Grey for everybody else. But remember, if you attack them first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.) Murderers/Red players have committed several murders, and you better look out for them. You can attack them without turning Grey for everybody else, but if you attack first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.)
Uhhh... There is basically exactly the same alignement system in DF.
So more or less you are impressed with a pvp system that has been around since 1994 with the game Meridian59.
In M59 you started out with a white name, if you attack someone your name turned orange for awhile nameing you an outlaw.
If you actually killed someone your name turned red, this does not fade away with a time limit, you are red forever ,,,except they added an in game court system ran by the players, that became the abuse mode, more or less the "player killer" managed to get a friend elected to the postion of judge, and thus granted a pardon from his crimes.
The system M59 used actually worked quite well for a very long time. It will be interesting to hear how this game uses it, and how well it works. I can be pretty certain when I warn you, the system will have many changes after release, usually griefers, Random PKers, nad whiners will either find a way to abuse the current system causeing the company to redo it, or complain about how unfair it is long enough and loud enough that they change it to silence them.
Uhhh... There is basically exactly the same alignement system in DF.
No it isnt.
Darkfall has an in built opt out clause for any negative conotations for same race killing.
The positive alignment system.
You can, without risk, in Darkfall, build up positive alignment by farming afkers at bindstones.
Then gank same race newbs with absolutely no risk , then go back to farm more positive alignment etc.
I hate the terms hardcore and carebear, they are meaningless, but to use vernacular you would understand, Darkfalls alignment system is designed to be as carebear as they come.
The only people who are red in darkfall are those manpulated by the griefers into being so.
The PKers never, ever go red.
The system as described is a carbon copy of UO, which does have loopholes, but in general PKers get murder tags and live with the consequences.
Thanks for the info Panda, I hadn't seen that but I honestly can say that seems like a good idea. Stat loss for dieing as a red sounds like a good idea, make being a pker dangerous.
I'm going to enjoy this little game of cat and mouse.
Neutral/Blue players are innocent (well, as innocent as they get) and it’s not ok for you to damage them. You may not steal from them, or cast suspicious spells on them either. Nor poison them. If you do so, you become Allowed/Grey. Kill enough of them and you will eventually be flagged as a Murderer/Red. Allowed/Gray players have behaved badly in some way against you or someone else in the last few minutes, meaning you can attack them without becoming Grey for everybody else. But remember, if you attack them first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.) Murderers/Red players have committed several murders, and you better look out for them. You can attack them without turning Grey for everybody else, but if you attack first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.)
On a totally unrelated sidenote Mortal Online will feature stat penalties for killing other players. Not very cool if they want to make a free sandbox world like Darkfall.
Lie. Let's see some proof. All they did was post a poll. That's right, asking players what they thought was best system. Imagine, devs asking for community input.
And oh, the game will only feature small battles as the engine cant render too large groups.
Lie. you have no idea.
Just think the graphics have marvelled people about MO. Nobody knows how anything works in this game yet or whether it will function well.
You seem to think you know though, don't you. As long as it's a negative (lie.)
So I do not agree with you troll-bait statement of a title. MO does not whipe the floor with Darkfall.
And there will be players that will find a way around any given system, also at Mortal Online.
IMO, there are several reasons FFA just doesn't work very well in MMORPGs.
FFA works in FPS games, because there is no real progression. Everyone has the same hit points, and does close to the same damage. There's no advantage, except your ability to use the keyboard. It's all about killing, getting killed, and respawing and doing it again over and over till your fingers hurt. Fun, yes, but not the same thing as building an RPG character in a game like KOTOR, or an MMORPG character in a game like DAoC, WoW, EQ, etc.
IN an RPG your character progresses over time, whether in skills, or levels. You get stronger. If not, it's just an FPS.
And there's the problem. IF you have no restrictions, it becomes a gankfest. Stronger characters gank weaker characters over and over.
However, if you have restrictions that matter, you take away the fun of fighting. And isn't that the whole point of a PVP game, that you are SUPPOSED to kill each other?
So what's the point of allowing you to kill someone, and then giving you such a penalty for doing it that it's not worth it?
And realistic penalities dont' work. IN the real world people go to jail for committing "crimes". In the online world, if you make the game not fun, people quit paying sub fees and play something else.
Best solution to date, IMO, is RVR when it comes to RPG games where characters increase in ability. FFA works best for twitch games like First Person Shooters.
Both are fun, but when you make the
I get your argument...but its short sighted.
To address the gankfest......yes, the strong prey on the weak. I remember when I first started UO....I got jumped. I should have learned my leason, but I didnt....went out to the same spot the next day and got jumped again. The day after that I convinced 3 other guys to come hunt with me. The same guy came by and we killed him.
He came back with a few more people and took us out. The next day we brought a few more and took them out.....we eventually ended up being rival guilds and made for one of the best PvPing experiences I've had. See where I'm going?
Now I could have tucked tail and gave up after getting killed the first two times, but I didn't. The story doesn't always end with a fustrated player that can't leave town because the big bad meanies keep kicking him around.
I took the initiave to "meet people" and "make friends" to protect myself. They brought more and we brought more back. Bands of PKs create an opprotunity for Bands of Anti-PKs....good vs. evil thing. Thats how clans are formed, thats how friends are formed....thats how a sandbox community is formed. There is no better "end game content" than the eb and flow of clan/alliance politics and the constant struggle for power. It's dynamic, dramatic and basicly amounts to a virtual soap opera...very addicting. Sandbox endgame last much longer than any "new dungeon / armor / weapon expansion content".
With that said, sandbox endgame is very fickle...and the few will exploit where they can. Yes there needs to be restrictions....but restrictions on the right things. You can allow free play so long as the free play is within the scope of PvP. Allow a FFA PvP system.....but keep restrictions on people purchasing ingame currency or items on ebay. Allow a FFA PvP system....but keep restrictions on people using third party software to automate the leveling/skill gain system.
Neutral/Blue players are innocent (well, as innocent as they get) and it’s not ok for you to damage them. You may not steal from them, or cast suspicious spells on them either. Nor poison them. If you do so, you become Allowed/Grey. Kill enough of them and you will eventually be flagged as a Murderer/Red. Allowed/Gray players have behaved badly in some way against you or someone else in the last few minutes, meaning you can attack them without becoming Grey for everybody else. But remember, if you attack them first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.) Murderers/Red players have committed several murders, and you better look out for them. You can attack them without turning Grey for everybody else, but if you attack first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.)
Seems very similar to Lineage 2's karma system.
The difference in L2 is that if you go "red/chaotic" in L2 and already have 5 or more PK's (it keeps track), and someone kills you, you "pop like a pinata" as they say, dropping potentially multiple items - including potentially expensive gear. It does give people pause before they decide to go screwing with people... especially if they don't know whether they can beat you or not.
It's true, though, that people can find work-arounds with any penalty/flagging system. I think what has had a stronger affect on people's behavior in L2 isn't so much the karma system, but the potential repercussions of screwing with the wrong person/people - say, un-tagged alts of a very powerful clan or ally. You could end up with a very nasty war on your hands, and some clans simply aren't prepared to deal with that.
In any case, it's a good system overall... but I think MO should have some kind of extra disincentive to abusing "going red" - such as loss of gear if killed as in L2. People think nothing of going red - some wear it as a badge, in fact, if there's no "physical" penalties. Add the risk of losing potentially valuable items and it makes it a bit more meaningful.
I think thats fair...but you have to have a buffer on the allowable PKs.
When L2 first came out, you went chaotic/red on your first PK AND risked losing a piece of armor or weapon you spent the last 3-4 months working for. The problem with this was that players were able to avoid the PvP flagging system and grief you. There isn't anything you can do about the situation if the other person doesn't flag back. Your then faced with a situation where you either give this kid a dirt nap and risk loosing your stuff or take the griefing.....either way the griefer wins.
They later changed it to where you can't drop any items until after 5 PKs. This allows players to evoke player justice when people grief or act like an a-hole while avoiding the PvP system.
You also have to create a system that allows you to work those PK counts off over time so that you can police situations like that over the life of the game. It has to be teadious and/or hard to keep people from abusing it (kind of like DF). Ultima forced you to spend 24 hours of game time to burn off one count. Lineage 2 forced you to sacrafice the experience you got for killing monsters to level a pet up (sin eater)....which could take hours of mind numbing monster bashing. Both are a pain in the ass and serve as a way to keep player justice evergreen and PKs from abusing the system.
I don't really post much one here; mostly I just lurk and read about upcoming games to get an idea of what they're like (admitedly, you have to wade through a lot of nonesense to extract a good oppinion, around here =P).
I have to say though, I can't fathom why anyone would want to flame either of these games. I personally hope that they BOTH do well enough to be proffitable. I'm extremely sick of the generic model of MMO's these days, and so tired of WoW that I'm starting to pretend it doesn't exist just because I can't believe my favorite game company (Blizzard) would let something so boring live for so long. The more games like Darkfall and Mortal Online that do well, the more likely the publishers will be to allow bigger budget games like them through the pipes - and for those of us who are sick of the old EQ1 model (and I believe we are numerous) that is a godsend.
On a side note, I have noticed a more "middle of the road" view about Mortal Online right now on these forums, and I can't help but wonder if it's simply due to the fact that we know less about it. I have a strong feeling that the "better" graphics are coloring peoples vision, and that come release, we'll see a similar set of extremes as we are with Darkfall: Those who love it, and those who loathe it. I think Darkfalls real only mistake so far was not have a true public beta. They jumped right into release, and many players felt like they paid for an incomplete product. I think, as with any MMO, over time and updates many if not all of those issues and bugs will be fixed, but the initial rocky start will no doubt carry with them for quite some time.
I hope MO doesn't make this same mistake. Quite honestly, I wish more MMO games would STOP making this mistake. Too many MMO games release unpolished.
This is an over statement since your post count is 1.....
welcome to the flamer forums. I'm sure we can find someone to disagree with you about something at sometime, somewhere down the road.
And if you have a hard time finding someone to disagree with you, let me know and I will fill in, I will argue with anyone about anything, and if all else fails we can resort to name calling in order to fulfill are needs to be noticed.
I don't really post much one here; mostly I just lurk and read about upcoming games to get an idea of what they're like (admitedly, you have to wade through a lot of nonesense to extract a good oppinion, around here =P). I have to say though, I can't fathom why anyone would want to flame either of these games. I personally hope that they BOTH do well enough to be proffitable. I'm extremely sick of the generic model of MMO's these days, and so tired of WoW that I'm starting to pretend it doesn't exist just because I can't believe my favorite game company (Blizzard) would let something so boring live for so long. The more games like Darkfall and Mortal Online that do well, the more likely the publishers will be to allow bigger budget games like them through the pipes - and for those of us who are sick of the old EQ1 model (and I believe we are numerous) that is a godsend. On a side note, I have noticed a more "middle of the road" view about Mortal Online right now on these forums, and I can't help but wonder if it's simply due to the fact that we know less about it. I have a strong feeling that the "better" graphics are coloring peoples vision, and that come release, we'll see a similar set of extremes as we are with Darkfall: Those who love it, and those who loathe it. I think Darkfalls real only mistake so far was not have a true public beta. They jumped right into release, and many players felt like they paid for an incomplete product. I think, as with any MMO, over time and updates many if not all of those issues and bugs will be fixed, but the initial rocky start will no doubt carry with them for quite some time. I hope MO doesn't make this same mistake. Quite honestly, I wish more MMO games would STOP making this mistake. Too many MMO games release unpolished. Meow.
I think your about right on the "middle of the road". There isn't a feature list or an idiot preaching to the fans that the game feature complete and could be released today. Closed beta will be releasing soon and should provide good insight about MO.
Neutral/Blue players are innocent (well, as innocent as they get) and it’s not ok for you to damage them. You may not steal from them, or cast suspicious spells on them either. Nor poison them. If you do so, you become Allowed/Grey. Kill enough of them and you will eventually be flagged as a Murderer/Red. Allowed/Gray players have behaved badly in some way against you or someone else in the last few minutes, meaning you can attack them without becoming Grey for everybody else. But remember, if you attack them first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.) Murderers/Red players have committed several murders, and you better look out for them. You can attack them without turning Grey for everybody else, but if you attack first, they have the right to attack you back! (Meaning they see you as Grey.)
On a totally unrelated sidenote Mortal Online will feature stat penalties for killing other players. Not very cool if they want to make a free sandbox world like Darkfall. Actually, it was my understanding that even DF has a sort of penalty system for pkers. Any dev in their right mind would put one in a rpg setting. It prevents mindless testosterone in thongs running around 24/7. Maybe with this, we might just see it 15/7. Who knows? Penalty systems have always been requested by players, and will continue to be placed in the games to come.
And oh, the game will only feature small battles as the engine cant render too large groups. I am hoping you are being sarcastic, because if this is a real comment, you couldn't be more wrong. Those actually familiar with the Unreal 3 engine, know it can handle this and more, actually. Where the clogs will come, is your own pc/ isp. And sorry, those will always be there as some stupid kid tries to pvp on the prettiest games, while running on their parent's 4 year old pc, just so he can try to impress his friends at school. No, the reality of the Unreal 3 engine, will be massive environments, where if there is loading, it will usually be ala Oblivion such as interiors and caves. The wilderness will be where the big fun is. Kind of like it was the last time society ran around playing swordfight as a whole.
Just think the graphics have marvelled people about MO. Nobody knows how anything works in this game yet or whether it will function well. This is true. Well mostly. Some of us know the systems they are using, and thus have an idea of what they are capable of, through shared experience. Will they pull their potential? Only time will tell. However it is fair to say thus far that they have much more so than DF, arguably the only reasonable game to compare it to at the moment.
So I do not agree with you troll-bait statement of a title. MO does not whipe the floor with Darkfall. Just the fact that Star is talking actively with it's base in their forums, and getting a real live 2-way dialogue going, makes it better than DF already. If they have a reasonable beta period, and launch half decent, then they will have surpassed in only a few short years, what DF set out to do 10 yrs ago.
Just thought that post of theirs needed some clarification.
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW -- -- "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
Is the stat loss by killing same race players in MO something which will hit you every time you kill someone of your own faction? Or will it be limited to a certain percentage in order not to get nerfed too much? Curious about that.
I like the fact that players will be allowed to fight back without consequences whenever they get attacked first. But like DF it also means PK'ers jumping infront of spells and arrows to get someone to turn grey to them. As far as I understood the system that is. I hope they will implement some kind of counter to notice whether an attack is 'intended' or not; three hits in a certain timespan would mean a genuine attack, or something of that order. Any word on that yet?
Some questions: Is the stat loss by killing same race players in MO something which will hit you every time you kill someone of your own faction? Or will it be limited to a certain percentage in order not to get nerfed too much? Curious about that. I like the fact that players will be allowed to fight back without consequences whenever they get attacked first. But like DF it also means PK'ers jumping infront of spells and arrows to get someone to turn grey to them. As far as I understood the system that is. I hope they will implement some kind of counter to notice whether an attack is 'intended' or not; three hits in a certain timespan would mean a genuine attack, or something of that order. Any word on that yet? Fankhs.
I read more about the flagging system and the thing is, if you attack a gray, you get gray.
In darkfall, if you attack a gray you get to gank, and you get to gank possibly someone innocent. I played the darkfall beta and there were fuckers jumping infront of me all the time trying to get me gray so they could prey upon me with NO penalty what so ever, I got fucking raided by hordes of newbs at the starting area (I was also a newb) and I got so pissed about this, but it seems the MO devs are actually going somewhere preventing this.
Thats the problem with the "friendly fire" addition to MMORPGs. Yea, its more "realistic"....but at what cost? Breaking and exploiting the noitery system? Your introducing an aiming system with ranged combat....that alone is enough "innovation" and "realisim" for a MMO. Creating a situation where someone can jump infront of a spell or arrow that wasn't intended for them isn't a value adding addition to the game. I'm all for adding a touch of realisim in these games....but lets not forget, its a game. If an arrow hits you in the head in RL, you die. If an arrow hits you in the head in a game.....you lose like 1/8th of your HP. You have to draw the line on "realism" somewhere.
The only way around friendly fire & aimed ranged combat is if you can somehow create some kind of check on who the ranged character has targeted when the "innocent" player gets hit. If an innocent character gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is targeted by the person doing the damage....then its safe to say that the "innocent" person was the intended target....making the attacker go grey/criminal. If an "innocent" player gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is NOT targeted by the person doing the damage.....the "innocent" player should take damage but no change in status should occur. If you don't want to get hit...then don't get in the way. That sounds pretty realistic to me.
Thats the problem with the "friendly fire" addition to MMORPGs. Yea, its more "realistic"....but at what cost? Breaking and exploiting the noitery system? Your introducing an aiming system with ranged combat....that alone is enough "innovation" and "realisim" for a MMO. Creating a situation where someone can jump infront of a spell or arrow that wasn't intended for them isn't a value adding addition to the game. I'm all for adding a touch of realisim in these games....but lets not forget, its a game. If an arrow hits you in the head in RL, you die. If an arrow hits you in the head in a game.....you lose like 1/8th of your HP. You have to draw the line on "realism" somewhere. The only way around friendly fire & aimed ranged combat is if you can somehow create some kind of check on who the ranged character has targeted when the "innocent" player gets hit. If an innocent character gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is targeted by the person doing the damage....then its safe to say that the "innocent" person was the intended target....making the attacker go grey/criminal. If an "innocent" player gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is NOT targeted by the person doing the damage.....the "innocent" player should take damage but no change in status should occur. If you don't want to get hit...then don't get in the way. That sounds pretty realistic to me.
I'm just worried that players are going to exploit this, like they are doing in darkfall now, and the guard towers made this no better, I'm referring to the darkfall beta.
MO, in my opinion, is going to suffer the same fate as vanguard and I'll tell you why - my opinion is based on some hard facts.
It requires higher system specs than vanguard, because it's trying to be an oblivion online but with no zones. Currently this is not possible in an mmorpg. Vanguard tried this, and claimed within a year people would be able to afford pc's to play it. Well it's been more than a year now, and people still don't have pc's to play everquest II on full throttle.
So until developers learn that gameplay should be built first as the chore of the game, and then graphics added later in patches or expansions, or renovations, such as everquest I or ultima online, but implemented better ofcourse, we will all have to deal with games like wow and darkfall being superior. Why are they superior?
Because they have more players to test with. This means that they uncover bugs sooner. This also means they develop the game at an accelerated rate. Now, some of you are screaming, well darkfall has liek 200 players. That's true, but don't underestimate Tasos. He is smart. He released the game, got a fan base, and then closed off new subscriptions. Whatever his reasons, this will have several effects.
First, the game will be better when it reaches a broader audience - less bugs, more skills, etc.
Second, he is artificialy stimulating demand by allowing a select few to play now, which unlike vanguard, will lead to more waves of subscriptions at a later date.
Sorry to say it guys, but this is a professional opinion considering i've been playing online games for nearly two decades now.
MO, in my opinion, is going to suffer the same fate as vanguard and I'll tell you why - my opinion is based on some hard facts. It requires higher system specs than vanguard, because it's trying to be an oblivion online but with no zones. Currently this is not possible in an mmorpg. Vanguard tried this, and claimed within a year people would be able to afford pc's to play it. Well it's been more than a year now, and people still don't have pc's to play everquest II on full throttle. So until developers learn that gameplay should be built first as the chore of the game, and then graphics added later in patches or expansions, or renovations, such as everquest I or ultima online, but implemented better ofcourse, we will all have to deal with games like wow and darkfall being superior. Why are they superior? Because they have more players to test with. This means that they uncover bugs sooner. This also means they develop the game at an accelerated rate. Now, some of you are screaming, well darkfall has liek 200 players. That's true, but don't underestimate Tasos. He is smart. He released the game, got a fan base, and then closed off new subscriptions. Whatever his reasons, this will have several effects. First, the game will be better when it reaches a broader audience - less bugs, more skills, etc. Second, he is artificialy stimulating demand by allowing a select few to play now, which unlike vanguard, will lead to more waves of subscriptions at a later date. Sorry to say it guys, but this is a professional opinion considering i've been playing online games for nearly two decades now.
Maby you are right maby you are wrong the thing is, vanguard used thier Unreal engine for everything, Mortal using Grome world engine for the landscapes which vanguard did not.
Unreal 3 engine is not the same as vanguard used, Unreal 3 engine is designed to be used in MMO the Vanguards unreal engine were not that good in that.
My point is, Mortal using 3 things to creat this world.....Grome World engine, Speed trees and Unreal 3 engine, vanguard used just one thing and that was Unreal2 or 2,5 cant remember.
That post about Vanguard is comical. I was the largest Vanboi for a long time. I doubt anything will ever be that bad again. Ineptitude is what took down VG, not the engine, gfx, or anything else.
That post about Vanguard is comical. I was the largest Vanboi for a long time. I doubt anything will ever be that bad again. Ineptitude is what took down VG, not the engine, gfx, or anything else.
I agree.
Darkfall will have the same reason shown for it's imminent demise, as well.
As long as the guys at MO can use more than 2 braincells at once without having an aneurism, they will beat Darkfall into submission without even needing to try.
And oh, the game will only feature small battles as the engine cant render too large groups.
I have no idea where this rumor started from. People assume that because the game uses an Unreal engine, it won't be able to support a large number of people on the screen at the same time.
People seem to forget that Lineage II, a game which uses an Unreal engline, has no problems with battles consisting of hundreds of players at the same time.
Comments
Personally I think it will be quite some time before we get to see if MO will "wipe the floor with DF." I can only hope by the time MO releases AV will have fixed all/most of their problems and we'll have a nice little competition. I believe only then will we see what these two games can really bring to the table in the world of future MMO's.
I think that at least the reasoning behind the stat loss makes sense. In an open PvP game there has to be a mechanism in place to prevent the asshats from doing what they do best--act like total douche bags.
It's hard to create a real open PvP MMORPG simply because the risks and the repercussions of real life criminal acts are virtually impossible to recreate in a video game.
So the devs have to get creative to make being a murderer as undesirable as possible, if the goal is to imitate the real world. Unless of course the whole point of the game is to senslesly murder other players then it really doesn't matter.
the thing is all MO has to do is not screw up the selling the the game and it will surpass darkfall.
I think that at least the reasoning behind the stat loss makes sense. In an open PvP game there has to be a mechanism in place to prevent the asshats from doing what they do best--act like total douche bags.
It's hard to create a real open PvP MMORPG simply because the risks and the repercussions of real life criminal acts are virtually impossible to recreate in a video game.
So the devs have to get creative to make being a murderer as undesirable as possible, if the goal is to imitate the real world. Unless of course the whole point of the game is to senslesly murder other players then it really doesn't matter.
Exactly. You don't want to be killed while you're still flagged as a murderer, but the skilled pk'ers don't suffer punishment until they are finally brought down.
Uhhh... There is basically exactly the same alignement system in DF.
www.TheGriefer.net - PvP/PK MMO Community, Admin/Manager
So more or less you are impressed with a pvp system that has been around since 1994 with the game Meridian59.
In M59 you started out with a white name, if you attack someone your name turned orange for awhile nameing you an outlaw.
If you actually killed someone your name turned red, this does not fade away with a time limit, you are red forever ,,,except they added an in game court system ran by the players, that became the abuse mode, more or less the "player killer" managed to get a friend elected to the postion of judge, and thus granted a pardon from his crimes.
The system M59 used actually worked quite well for a very long time. It will be interesting to hear how this game uses it, and how well it works. I can be pretty certain when I warn you, the system will have many changes after release, usually griefers, Random PKers, nad whiners will either find a way to abuse the current system causeing the company to redo it, or complain about how unfair it is long enough and loud enough that they change it to silence them.
Not so nice guy!
Uhhh... There is basically exactly the same alignement system in DF.
No it isnt.
Darkfall has an in built opt out clause for any negative conotations for same race killing.
The positive alignment system.
You can, without risk, in Darkfall, build up positive alignment by farming afkers at bindstones.
Then gank same race newbs with absolutely no risk , then go back to farm more positive alignment etc.
I hate the terms hardcore and carebear, they are meaningless, but to use vernacular you would understand, Darkfalls alignment system is designed to be as carebear as they come.
The only people who are red in darkfall are those manpulated by the griefers into being so.
The PKers never, ever go red.
The system as described is a carbon copy of UO, which does have loopholes, but in general PKers get murder tags and live with the consequences.
Darkfall is easy mode in comparison.
lmao
Thanks for the info Panda, I hadn't seen that but I honestly can say that seems like a good idea. Stat loss for dieing as a red sounds like a good idea, make being a pker dangerous.
I'm going to enjoy this little game of cat and mouse.
On a totally unrelated sidenote Mortal Online will feature stat penalties for killing other players. Not very cool if they want to make a free sandbox world like Darkfall.
Lie. Let's see some proof. All they did was post a poll. That's right, asking players what they thought was best system. Imagine, devs asking for community input.
And oh, the game will only feature small battles as the engine cant render too large groups.
Lie. you have no idea.
Just think the graphics have marvelled people about MO. Nobody knows how anything works in this game yet or whether it will function well.
You seem to think you know though, don't you. As long as it's a negative (lie.)
So I do not agree with you troll-bait statement of a title. MO does not whipe the floor with Darkfall.
We'll see, won't we?
IMO, there are several reasons FFA just doesn't work very well in MMORPGs.
FFA works in FPS games, because there is no real progression. Everyone has the same hit points, and does close to the same damage. There's no advantage, except your ability to use the keyboard. It's all about killing, getting killed, and respawing and doing it again over and over till your fingers hurt. Fun, yes, but not the same thing as building an RPG character in a game like KOTOR, or an MMORPG character in a game like DAoC, WoW, EQ, etc.
IN an RPG your character progresses over time, whether in skills, or levels. You get stronger. If not, it's just an FPS.
And there's the problem. IF you have no restrictions, it becomes a gankfest. Stronger characters gank weaker characters over and over.
However, if you have restrictions that matter, you take away the fun of fighting. And isn't that the whole point of a PVP game, that you are SUPPOSED to kill each other?
So what's the point of allowing you to kill someone, and then giving you such a penalty for doing it that it's not worth it?
And realistic penalities dont' work. IN the real world people go to jail for committing "crimes". In the online world, if you make the game not fun, people quit paying sub fees and play something else.
Best solution to date, IMO, is RVR when it comes to RPG games where characters increase in ability. FFA works best for twitch games like First Person Shooters.
Both are fun, but when you make the
I get your argument...but its short sighted.
To address the gankfest......yes, the strong prey on the weak. I remember when I first started UO....I got jumped. I should have learned my leason, but I didnt....went out to the same spot the next day and got jumped again. The day after that I convinced 3 other guys to come hunt with me. The same guy came by and we killed him.
He came back with a few more people and took us out. The next day we brought a few more and took them out.....we eventually ended up being rival guilds and made for one of the best PvPing experiences I've had. See where I'm going?
Now I could have tucked tail and gave up after getting killed the first two times, but I didn't. The story doesn't always end with a fustrated player that can't leave town because the big bad meanies keep kicking him around.
I took the initiave to "meet people" and "make friends" to protect myself. They brought more and we brought more back. Bands of PKs create an opprotunity for Bands of Anti-PKs....good vs. evil thing. Thats how clans are formed, thats how friends are formed....thats how a sandbox community is formed. There is no better "end game content" than the eb and flow of clan/alliance politics and the constant struggle for power. It's dynamic, dramatic and basicly amounts to a virtual soap opera...very addicting. Sandbox endgame last much longer than any "new dungeon / armor / weapon expansion content".
With that said, sandbox endgame is very fickle...and the few will exploit where they can. Yes there needs to be restrictions....but restrictions on the right things. You can allow free play so long as the free play is within the scope of PvP. Allow a FFA PvP system.....but keep restrictions on people purchasing ingame currency or items on ebay. Allow a FFA PvP system....but keep restrictions on people using third party software to automate the leveling/skill gain system.
Seems very similar to Lineage 2's karma system.
The difference in L2 is that if you go "red/chaotic" in L2 and already have 5 or more PK's (it keeps track), and someone kills you, you "pop like a pinata" as they say, dropping potentially multiple items - including potentially expensive gear. It does give people pause before they decide to go screwing with people... especially if they don't know whether they can beat you or not.
It's true, though, that people can find work-arounds with any penalty/flagging system. I think what has had a stronger affect on people's behavior in L2 isn't so much the karma system, but the potential repercussions of screwing with the wrong person/people - say, un-tagged alts of a very powerful clan or ally. You could end up with a very nasty war on your hands, and some clans simply aren't prepared to deal with that.
In any case, it's a good system overall... but I think MO should have some kind of extra disincentive to abusing "going red" - such as loss of gear if killed as in L2. People think nothing of going red - some wear it as a badge, in fact, if there's no "physical" penalties. Add the risk of losing potentially valuable items and it makes it a bit more meaningful.
I think thats fair...but you have to have a buffer on the allowable PKs.
When L2 first came out, you went chaotic/red on your first PK AND risked losing a piece of armor or weapon you spent the last 3-4 months working for. The problem with this was that players were able to avoid the PvP flagging system and grief you. There isn't anything you can do about the situation if the other person doesn't flag back. Your then faced with a situation where you either give this kid a dirt nap and risk loosing your stuff or take the griefing.....either way the griefer wins.
They later changed it to where you can't drop any items until after 5 PKs. This allows players to evoke player justice when people grief or act like an a-hole while avoiding the PvP system.
You also have to create a system that allows you to work those PK counts off over time so that you can police situations like that over the life of the game. It has to be teadious and/or hard to keep people from abusing it (kind of like DF). Ultima forced you to spend 24 hours of game time to burn off one count. Lineage 2 forced you to sacrafice the experience you got for killing monsters to level a pet up (sin eater)....which could take hours of mind numbing monster bashing. Both are a pain in the ass and serve as a way to keep player justice evergreen and PKs from abusing the system.
I don't really post much one here; mostly I just lurk and read about upcoming games to get an idea of what they're like (admitedly, you have to wade through a lot of nonesense to extract a good oppinion, around here =P).
I have to say though, I can't fathom why anyone would want to flame either of these games. I personally hope that they BOTH do well enough to be proffitable. I'm extremely sick of the generic model of MMO's these days, and so tired of WoW that I'm starting to pretend it doesn't exist just because I can't believe my favorite game company (Blizzard) would let something so boring live for so long. The more games like Darkfall and Mortal Online that do well, the more likely the publishers will be to allow bigger budget games like them through the pipes - and for those of us who are sick of the old EQ1 model (and I believe we are numerous) that is a godsend.
On a side note, I have noticed a more "middle of the road" view about Mortal Online right now on these forums, and I can't help but wonder if it's simply due to the fact that we know less about it. I have a strong feeling that the "better" graphics are coloring peoples vision, and that come release, we'll see a similar set of extremes as we are with Darkfall: Those who love it, and those who loathe it. I think Darkfalls real only mistake so far was not have a true public beta. They jumped right into release, and many players felt like they paid for an incomplete product. I think, as with any MMO, over time and updates many if not all of those issues and bugs will be fixed, but the initial rocky start will no doubt carry with them for quite some time.
I hope MO doesn't make this same mistake. Quite honestly, I wish more MMO games would STOP making this mistake. Too many MMO games release unpolished.
Meow.
This is an over statement since your post count is 1.....
welcome to the flamer forums. I'm sure we can find someone to disagree with you about something at sometime, somewhere down the road.
And if you have a hard time finding someone to disagree with you, let me know and I will fill in, I will argue with anyone about anything, and if all else fails we can resort to name calling in order to fulfill are needs to be noticed.
Not so nice guy!
I think your about right on the "middle of the road". There isn't a feature list or an idiot preaching to the fans that the game feature complete and could be released today. Closed beta will be releasing soon and should provide good insight about MO.
On a totally unrelated sidenote Mortal Online will feature stat penalties for killing other players. Not very cool if they want to make a free sandbox world like Darkfall. Actually, it was my understanding that even DF has a sort of penalty system for pkers. Any dev in their right mind would put one in a rpg setting. It prevents mindless testosterone in thongs running around 24/7. Maybe with this, we might just see it 15/7. Who knows? Penalty systems have always been requested by players, and will continue to be placed in the games to come.
And oh, the game will only feature small battles as the engine cant render too large groups. I am hoping you are being sarcastic, because if this is a real comment, you couldn't be more wrong. Those actually familiar with the Unreal 3 engine, know it can handle this and more, actually. Where the clogs will come, is your own pc/ isp. And sorry, those will always be there as some stupid kid tries to pvp on the prettiest games, while running on their parent's 4 year old pc, just so he can try to impress his friends at school. No, the reality of the Unreal 3 engine, will be massive environments, where if there is loading, it will usually be ala Oblivion such as interiors and caves. The wilderness will be where the big fun is. Kind of like it was the last time society ran around playing swordfight as a whole.
Just think the graphics have marvelled people about MO. Nobody knows how anything works in this game yet or whether it will function well. This is true. Well mostly. Some of us know the systems they are using, and thus have an idea of what they are capable of, through shared experience. Will they pull their potential? Only time will tell. However it is fair to say thus far that they have much more so than DF, arguably the only reasonable game to compare it to at the moment.
So I do not agree with you troll-bait statement of a title. MO does not whipe the floor with Darkfall. Just the fact that Star is talking actively with it's base in their forums, and getting a real live 2-way dialogue going, makes it better than DF already. If they have a reasonable beta period, and launch half decent, then they will have surpassed in only a few short years, what DF set out to do 10 yrs ago.
Just thought that post of theirs needed some clarification.
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Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide
Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift
Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
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"Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
Some questions:
Is the stat loss by killing same race players in MO something which will hit you every time you kill someone of your own faction? Or will it be limited to a certain percentage in order not to get nerfed too much? Curious about that.
I like the fact that players will be allowed to fight back without consequences whenever they get attacked first. But like DF it also means PK'ers jumping infront of spells and arrows to get someone to turn grey to them. As far as I understood the system that is. I hope they will implement some kind of counter to notice whether an attack is 'intended' or not; three hits in a certain timespan would mean a genuine attack, or something of that order. Any word on that yet?
Fankhs.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I read more about the flagging system and the thing is, if you attack a gray, you get gray.
In darkfall, if you attack a gray you get to gank, and you get to gank possibly someone innocent. I played the darkfall beta and there were fuckers jumping infront of me all the time trying to get me gray so they could prey upon me with NO penalty what so ever, I got fucking raided by hordes of newbs at the starting area (I was also a newb) and I got so pissed about this, but it seems the MO devs are actually going somewhere preventing this.
Thats the problem with the "friendly fire" addition to MMORPGs. Yea, its more "realistic"....but at what cost? Breaking and exploiting the noitery system? Your introducing an aiming system with ranged combat....that alone is enough "innovation" and "realisim" for a MMO. Creating a situation where someone can jump infront of a spell or arrow that wasn't intended for them isn't a value adding addition to the game. I'm all for adding a touch of realisim in these games....but lets not forget, its a game. If an arrow hits you in the head in RL, you die. If an arrow hits you in the head in a game.....you lose like 1/8th of your HP. You have to draw the line on "realism" somewhere.
The only way around friendly fire & aimed ranged combat is if you can somehow create some kind of check on who the ranged character has targeted when the "innocent" player gets hit. If an innocent character gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is targeted by the person doing the damage....then its safe to say that the "innocent" person was the intended target....making the attacker go grey/criminal. If an "innocent" player gets hit with a spell or an arrow and is NOT targeted by the person doing the damage.....the "innocent" player should take damage but no change in status should occur. If you don't want to get hit...then don't get in the way. That sounds pretty realistic to me.
I'm just worried that players are going to exploit this, like they are doing in darkfall now, and the guard towers made this no better, I'm referring to the darkfall beta.
MO, in my opinion, is going to suffer the same fate as vanguard and I'll tell you why - my opinion is based on some hard facts.
It requires higher system specs than vanguard, because it's trying to be an oblivion online but with no zones. Currently this is not possible in an mmorpg. Vanguard tried this, and claimed within a year people would be able to afford pc's to play it. Well it's been more than a year now, and people still don't have pc's to play everquest II on full throttle.
So until developers learn that gameplay should be built first as the chore of the game, and then graphics added later in patches or expansions, or renovations, such as everquest I or ultima online, but implemented better ofcourse, we will all have to deal with games like wow and darkfall being superior. Why are they superior?
Because they have more players to test with. This means that they uncover bugs sooner. This also means they develop the game at an accelerated rate. Now, some of you are screaming, well darkfall has liek 200 players. That's true, but don't underestimate Tasos. He is smart. He released the game, got a fan base, and then closed off new subscriptions. Whatever his reasons, this will have several effects.
First, the game will be better when it reaches a broader audience - less bugs, more skills, etc.
Second, he is artificialy stimulating demand by allowing a select few to play now, which unlike vanguard, will lead to more waves of subscriptions at a later date.
Sorry to say it guys, but this is a professional opinion considering i've been playing online games for nearly two decades now.
Maby you are right maby you are wrong the thing is, vanguard used thier Unreal engine for everything, Mortal using Grome world engine for the landscapes which vanguard did not.
Unreal 3 engine is not the same as vanguard used, Unreal 3 engine is designed to be used in MMO the Vanguards unreal engine were not that good in that.
My point is, Mortal using 3 things to creat this world.....Grome World engine, Speed trees and Unreal 3 engine, vanguard used just one thing and that was Unreal2 or 2,5 cant remember.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
That post about Vanguard is comical. I was the largest Vanboi for a long time. I doubt anything will ever be that bad again. Ineptitude is what took down VG, not the engine, gfx, or anything else.
I agree.
Darkfall will have the same reason shown for it's imminent demise, as well.
As long as the guys at MO can use more than 2 braincells at once without having an aneurism, they will beat Darkfall into submission without even needing to try.
I have no idea where this rumor started from. People assume that because the game uses an Unreal engine, it won't be able to support a large number of people on the screen at the same time.
People seem to forget that Lineage II, a game which uses an Unreal engline, has no problems with battles consisting of hundreds of players at the same time.