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good vs evil SW:TOR style, too childish?
triprunner
Member Posts: 169
I mean most of the people who watched the original trilogy were teenagers back then. World was simple: good vs evil, nothing in between, everything's clear. Now, that generation is in it's 40s, 30s and that view of the world seems too naive. That's why Bioware's devs quote: "not a Star Wars Neutral guy game" really annoyed me.
I want to be neutral. I want to be able to work for the Siths or Republic like a pro Bounty Hunter. That's what pros do, they work for the highest bidder. The same with being a smuggler. Why not transport supplies for a Sith? They pay, i dont kill anyone everyone wins. Got to feed the family hive, right?
Of course this game is shaping up to be based on an good ole' WoW model. Sith vs Republic. Lame. After SW KOTOR i was expecting the best from BioWare.
Comments
I think it is WAY too early to say such things for sure. I dont feel like it is overly childish. But then... its Star Wars. heh Wait and see, I say.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
and playing games isint? go ask any hot chick what they think about people playing games at your age and se what they say:P
Get the hell outta here with all your Pros crap.
I think it is safe to say that both sides will be dumbed down, PC'd and neutered enough so that it will be "gangs of jedi who mostly wear white" vs "gangs of jedi who mostly wear black" and not much else. Neither one will actually get to do any quest lines that are truely edge and good or evil.
Are you following the game development or smoking crack?
What in that clouded resource center you refer to as a brain would have you believing all this game will be about is Jedi in their ballerina outfits?
Truly edge quests? "Like" do they have a look to them or what..."As if". "Gag me with a doggy biscuit" already. Oh heck that wasnt "edge" it was "Valley Girl". Which makes about as much sense :P
Good and Evil will play no role? Are you a troll by choice or stupidity? It is kind of looking like it could be either if you wonder why I ask. If you had ever played bioware games you would know damn well that they allow your character to adjust their status faction according to their actions.
If you kill the princess, instead of rescuing her in another castle, you would take a hard shift to evil. In the KOTOR games it seemed like it was easier to go evil than it was to reach top end good. I cant say for sure in Bioware's version as Obsidion introduced the idea of max faction good netting your jedi character a skill bonus(I never play evil in single player games). It used the same basic UI and engine as KOTOR so it is possible the mechanic was the same on acheiving top end good faction.
Anyways just another thread to take up space, and distracting from real talk about TOR.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
While I don't know if it is necessarily childish(although a lot of what they have showed us is pretty childish), I do agree that not allowing neutrality is very limiting and not fitting of an MMO in the Star Wars Universe.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
While I don't know if it is necessarily childish(although a lot of what they have showed us is pretty childish), I do agree that not allowing neutrality is very limiting and not fitting of an MMO in the Star Wars Universe.
And yet here you are, waiting to play it like the rest of us ;-)
Star Wars is a universe of good and evil, it is not a universe of middlemen. At least, not for the heroes in the universe.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
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== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
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Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
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Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Who says it is about good vs. evil? I tink, it will be about different shades of grey, really. The Jedi and the Sith are just the extremes on both sides. The Republic certainly does not appear to be "all" good. Perhaps the Sith Empire is not really all evil. If you read last Friday's update, about Ord Mantell and how the Republic is relying on a corrupt government, supported by crime syndicates, you can see, that Bioware writers are not thinking in black and white.
http://www.swtor.com/info/story/ord-mantell
Good point. It's still a lot for people to wrap their heads around all this info BW drops. Sounds like there will be plot twists, side changes ect all the way through the game.
aye, they have even said that even though there will be two sides or what ever. That does not limit you to how you play your character. How you act and decide your quests and act towards your NPC companions will decide weither or not you are good or Evil...They even gave the idea of. You're a bad guy but changing into good or a Good guy in a bad place.
I just hope they arent afraid to allow cross faction talking...it kills Roleplay if you can't talk to your enemy. Which in the StarWars story plots there was alot of Cross Enemy chit chatting making a story unfold into an epic duel and what not.
While I don't know if it is necessarily childish(although a lot of what they have showed us is pretty childish), I do agree that not allowing neutrality is very limiting and not fitting of an MMO in the Star Wars Universe.
And yet here you are, waiting to play it like the rest of us ;-)
I never said I wasn't going to try it, no matter how crappy it looks. I love Star Wars, it is my favorite IP, and I loved the KotOR games, so I'm definitely going to at least give it a shot(Unfortunately, I'm sure Bioware/Lucasarts are banking on this). Just because I'm going to try it doesn't mean I can't bitch about the things that I think look crappy while I wait for it to come out.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Hmm could it be that all 99% of the people who rave about the SW universe ever talk about is jedi? Or that Jedi vs Sith is the main "hook" of this time period? I will be utterly shocked if the vast majority of players running around any given server once this is live aren't carrying light sabres.
Also, if you could read you might have noticed I didn't say that good and evil will play no role; I said they'd be dumbed down to the point of silliness. To be "good" you'll probably grind the same 9999 faction quests that every other "good" jedi does and every decision you make will have about as much impact on the game world as a post here does. With the same for the "ebil" dudes. They aren't going to risk an "adult" rating, so I doubt you'll be doing anything that evil...no MMO has ever gone there for obvious reasons....and they sure aren't talking about a sandbox world where your choices are going to have any permanence or effect on others...so doing "good" isn't exactly going to be meaningful either.
P.S. If you're going to leap into the personal attacks some more because you have trouble following arguments, you might as well get it right: my intoxicant of choice is alcohol and I only waste time here when surfing internet porn gets boring.....
Too naieve or too childish? I dunno, but it is much simpler and especially in times like this sometimes the simple things are much better, especially if we want to just play a game and have fun. I really would like to know why things like this always have to be boiled down to WoW? You do realize good vs evil has been around for thousands upon thousands of years and blizzard did not, in any way, create this idea all on their own?
Whether or not it will only be two factions or 10,000 doesn't mean the game will be any better or any worse. In fact I would wager that it will have several npc factions with which players can earn some sort of influence or renown. By focusing, at least at launch, on only two (if they are in fact focusing on only two) this is good for the gamers. That leaves them far more time to spit shine and polish and release a game that sits well with the quality of BioWare titles in general. Additionally it gives them far more room for later expansions to actually add fully fleshed out factions with new classes and new storylines
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I don't actually think, this is about the simplicity of only having two faction. As far as I can deduce from the sparse information available, the universe is devided into a sith controlled area and a republic controlled area. As a player you chose where you start out. I also think, they made it fairly clear, that you don't have to be loyal to your side. "A good guy in a bad place" etc. So you can behave in a "neutral" way in your chosen area and it will have an impact on your character development.
But, I think, most of the complaints here, are really about people wanting to play Bounty Hunter and being able to hunt whoever they want and they are dissapointed, that the game mechanics won't allow that. It has really nothing to do with the sophistication of the story line.
Interesting posts above... I am still not convinced that SW TOR will cater to the original SW Trilogy generation. Dissapointment of the new trilogy and relentess "Kiddiezation" of SW IP is enough to expect the same from this game.
Just look at what's happening to SW right now; the SW Clone wars series: great animation, action non stop, but the plots of the episodes seem to be written by a 10 year old and they make as much sense as that 10 year old on crack...
MMORPG that was catering to that original trilogy fans was a pre-NGE SW Galaxies. And that's it. That game rocked, but Sony wanted to chase WoW and destroyed a brilliant concept. And that's when people left it to rot.
SW TOR is closely watched by Lucas's minions as it's shaping up to be another (this time thanks to the IP) contender for the WoW crown. They'll make sure what You get is another meaningless PvE action, happy dancing routines, bright colour vomitted all over the place, evil Sith who are mostly mean bullies and not tyranic genocidal maniacs... It will look good, have this "cushy" feeling of alrightness, but it will be just another gear grind kids adventure.
It would make me happy to be proven wrong on that...
I know that the 'normal' humans aren't really strictly good or bad. But the Jedi and Sith are who I was referring to as the heroes.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
While I agree good versus evil is childish, in real life during war time, the enemy is evil and you are good. Weather you use those two adjectives or not your environment is polarised beyond any intelligent rationale to the basest 'us versus them'.
Good vs. evil is what Star Wars is all about. The developers are staying true to the that universe which hasn't changed no matter which of the movies you are talking about. In the Original Trilogy it was the Empire vs. the Rebels. In the Prequals it was the Seperatists vs. the Republic. What's the difference? It was good vs. evil. There were no shades of gray.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Why not?
StarWars is one of the most simplistic Good vs Evil High Fantasy lores we can find.
StarWars is by no means a deep Science Fiction lore with a deep moral concept.
It is all about the simplistic balance of good and evil, the bad guys will usually wear black clothes and the wise good guys white/brown clothes... it cant be more simplistic than that...
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Well, not really. Your enemy has goals different than yours and your job is to prevent him from reaching them. That's how professional soldiers think. They leave propaganda "evil enemy" bullcrap behind.
SW is as far away from that example as possible although it contradicts itself many times. Like Jedi Mind trick is basically a breaking of someone's will against his wish, like using Sodium Penthate on a POW. Or extracting information from captured Sith/Empire officers. Theres not always a Jedi around right? So how do they do it? Ask nicely? C'mon...
Then You have worlds that no longer want to be under Republic authority. What about them? Are they evil separatists all of the sudden? Maybe they hate that Republic is corrupted, incapable of making any decisions and bureautically overblown raking in untold billions of credits for nothing. Oh, sorry they are supporting a covent of warrior monks who answer only to themselves, each one of them a walking battalion of troops and don't pay any taxes...
SW is a great IP but it stopped evolving after RotJ and all they added is gadgets, vague plots, few throw away characters and a mass of merchandise.
For the most part I agree. Anyone who thinks Star Wars was simply "Good vs. Evil" never really understood the plot, or is to ignorant to notice it.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
For the most part I agree. Anyone who thinks Star Wars was simply "Good vs. Evil" never really understood the plot, or is to ignorant to notice it.
No Abrahmm
This is not about the plot.
One of the reasons Star Wars is considered high fantasy is the difined role of good and evil, there is a clear definition of moral in SW, this is not a matter of "understand the plot", it is the pure definition of SW, nothing more, nothing less, if you really belive there is moral complexity in SW you should consider to open your horizons. and read/watch a couple of books, movies where there really is more than Good vs Evil.
Titus Andronicus - there is no clear and simplistic morality definition.
Macbeth - there is no clear and simplistic morality definition.
BladeRunner - there is no clear and simplistic morality definition.
NakedLunch - there is no clear and simplistic morality definition.
Existenz - there is no clear and simplistic morality definition.
StarWars - clear and defined Good and Evil.
Lord of the Rings - clear and defined Good and Evil.
...even in Tv shows, if you get OZ from HBO, there is not the simplistic good and evil concept.
StarWars HAS a simple view of good and evil, and really to tell someone "You didnt understand StarWars plot" is offensive.
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Triprunner
Mind trick, corruption and ideological sides doesnt change the simplistic good and evil approach Star Wars has.
If you get Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, most High Fantasy tales (and even some movies about the WW2) you will realize Good and Evil are very, very defined, and the judgment of who is the hero is very clear, even if some character change sides or show a bit of "good" in its evilness.
Star Wars doesnt has a "realistic" or complex moral side, any story that has a clear destructive and corrupted villain and a clear hero doesnt has moral complexity, in real life there is no such thing as the "villain" and the "hero" , just like in a Shakespeare creation there is moral relativism.
Just to be clear, when I talk about the high fantasy and somehow limited and as you said childish side of Star Wars, Im not talking about it in a negative way, it is a nice lore, Tolkien´s work is impressive and good but also has this limited moral view.
But we cant hide the fact, Good and Evil is clear, is defined, is simplistic in Star Wars.
You said "I mean most of the people who watched the original trilogy were teenagers back then. World was simple: good vs evil, nothing in between, everything's clear." so, it seems we agree about SW fundations, I understand you would want something more complex now, but I disagree with everyone who thinks a SW MMORPG should be much more than Good versus Evil, in a sense it can be, but with SW fundations, moral complexity will never be really present in something based on Star Wars.
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Triprunner
Mind trick, corruption and ideological sides doesnt change the simplistic good and evil approach Star Wars has.
If you get Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, most High Fantasy tales (and even some movies about the WW2) you will realize Good and Evil are very, very defined, and the judgment of who is the hero is very clear, even if some character change sides or show a bit of "good" in its evilness.
Star Wars doesnt has a "realistic" or complex moral side, any story that has a clear destructive and corrupted villain and a clear hero doesnt has moral complexity, in real life there is no such thing as the "villain" and the "hero" , just like in a Shakespeare creation there is moral relativism.
Just to be clear, when I talk about the high fantasy and somehow limited and as you said childish side of Star Wars, Im not talking about it in a negative way, it is a nice lore, Tolkien´s work is impressive and good but also has this limited moral view.
But we cant hide the fact, Good and Evil is clear, is defined, is simplistic in Star Wars.
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Nothing more to add, i agree.