Originally posted by qbangy32 Why hasn't there been user generated content introduced as a complete module yet?
Well, it's probably something really complicated and time-consuming to create. If they ever put the time into, it got to pay off a lot in the end. While I certainly see the benefits there, whether or not it will pay itself off is another question.
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Why hasn't there been user generated content introduced as a complete module yet?
Well, it's probably something really complicated and time-consuming to create. If they ever put the time into, it got to pay off a lot in the end. While I certainly see the benefits there, whether or not it will pay itself off is another question.
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Personally, I am not totally convinced.
I know what your getting at with the potential of player created content becoming a means to exploit the loot system, but they could always look at how other games manage to implement such systems like we see with CoH/V, they have no loot dropping but instead offer the player tokens which can then be handed in for relevant rewards, I'm sure that would be one way to ensure that ludicrous amounts of itmes are not dropping or the wrong type is placed within a dungeon.
However I fully realise that this is probably a monumental task, but I'm sure the community would be thrilled to see it become a reality and it must have been mentioned time and again on the main boards.
Player created content is definately the way forward for alot of MMO's not just DDO, but it would definately suit DDO better than most.
Originally posted by qbangy32 [...] systems like we see with CoH/V, they have no loot dropping but instead offer the player tokens which can then be handed in for relevant rewards
I have heard that from someone else, and since I am not familiar with CoX you'll need to fill me up on that one but how do they determine how to give rewards? Time taken for completion? Obviously not, that would be backward.
If not, completion itself? Again, that could be exploited so that can't be it.
Maybe I'm missing the obvious. If so, then I am sorry.
Originally posted by qbangy32 Player created content is definately the way forward for alot of MMO's not just DDO, but it would definately suit DDO better than most.
I can certainly agree to that however, as we both know, this is a monumental task and I'd bet that this is even more for Turbine to create than it would be for any other MMO out there.
Maybe that this is our "Top Secret" project.
If it is not, then I don't think it'd be wise for them to try come up with user-generated content tools (again, they are the one in the know so I may as well be wrong) because it would take too much away from an already slow development cycle.*
*Hopefully it is slower because they devoted a lot of resources to Module 9.
Well I believe the Tokens replace the actual loot dropped by the mobs in CoH/V but don't quote me on that as the system still hasn't gone live yet but is due to in the next content update.
However I see your point in that this could still be exploited, making short dungeons, having mobs drop too many tokens or multiple tokens at once etc etc.
There would be ways to prevent or at least limit exploiting the looting system by limiting the amount of tokens available, having differing grades of tokens that are earnt via a ranking system for player created dungeons and their sensible use therein which would be judged by the players and the devs to ensure no biased voting.
Limit the amount of tokens allowed to be placed within a dungeon by only rewarding tokens on completion of the dungeon, repeating the dungeon within a certain time frame is prevented by introducing lockout timers on player content to ensure easier dungeons are not farmed.
Just a few ideas and I'm sure there are countless others that could be used to help make the experience fairer for all.
The system works in CoX because it can't be exploited very easily. First, there are no chests in CoX. All the salvage and enhancements drop randomly from MOB's. The number one way to get experience in CoX is killing MOB's so your experience-per-time is relatively consistent and linear unlike DDO where its all back loaded. Also, the instances in CoX are simple. A DDO development tool is going to be far too complex to release as a part of the game.
If they did decide to make a quest builder then it would probably be so watered down that we wouldn't even want to use it.
I agree that DDO is used to test parts of LOTRO, the most obvious case being Monks as the Beta for Warden. Although I think vice versa is true if you look at the tree models in the new starter area.
However LOTRO does not even come close to replacing DDO as the gameplay is vastly different and LOTRO has EQ/WoW dungeons. DDO dungeons are quite a bit different and are one of the only examples of using the 3rd dimension to a large extent (anyone who has done the Pit knows what I am talking about here).
LOTRO is a nicer game. It looks better graphically, its just put together better in so many UI ways and some ideas (like the warden combos) are simply implemented better. But it cannot replace DDO.
[...] systems like we see with CoH/V, they have no loot dropping but instead offer the player tokens which can then be handed in for relevant rewards
I have heard that from someone else, and since I am not familiar with CoX you'll need to fill me up on that one but how do they determine how to give rewards? Time taken for completion? Obviously not, that would be backward.
If not, completion itself? Again, that could be exploited so that can't be it.
Maybe I'm missing the obvious. If so, then I am sorry.
Originally posted by qbangy32
Player created content is definately the way forward for alot of MMO's not just DDO, but it would definately suit DDO better than most.
I can certainly agree to that however, as we both know, this is a monumental task and I'd bet that this is even more for Turbine to create than it would be for any other MMO out there.
Maybe that this is our "Top Secret" project.
If it is not, then I don't think it'd be wise for them to try come up with user-generated content tools (again, they are the one in the know so I may as well be wrong) because it would take too much away from an already slow development cycle.*
*Hopefully it is slower because they devoted a lot of resources to Module 9.
I don't think you guys are getting a good explanation of the "tokens".
These tokens are called "Merits". You can basically exchange merits for a one shot special Invention enhancement recipe. Enhancements recipes are random loot drops in general.
CoX enhancements are basically things that modify a power, making do more damage or more accuracy or cost less to use. Invention Enhancements offer some special bonuses or set bonuses that are not normally available. When this system was first releaseed the drop pools were divided into different classes. Also certain long group orietned "quests" called Task forces gave a guaranteed drop.
Certain enhancements coould only be gotten from Task force drops. However CoX being a somewhat older game with a history of mistakes did not take something into account. Some Task forces take 30 minutes and some TF take 4 hours. Yet each was rewarding with one random drop from the special TF pool. A number of highly desired recipes only dropped from this pool.
This caused the Katie Hannon TF to get run over and over because you fight the same Arch-Villain boss 10 times in quick succession and get a lot of nice chances at drops and get the TF drop. They had to nerf the quick Katie TF but some of the other long TF were still clearly screwed.
They therefore created the Merit system in which each TF was datamined for an average completion estimate and rewared with a total merit reward on completion based upon a certain Merit/minute standard.
They also added Merits to the normal Story Arcs and the various Flashbacks. However these reward at a lesser Merit/minute reward.
The Merits themselves do not reward with anything that is not obtainable by other means. They are meant more as a ways to equalize out the rewards since the drop per completion paradigm simply could not work.
Many things in CoH do not reward with Merits at all and merits are not a good way to get many types of IO enhancements. They are good to get the big ticket items. But many of the common IOs or even semi-uncommon or even rare but situationally useful IO enhancements are better gotten through the Consignment house and using merits would be a waste.
I suspect the mission architect missions will not reward with merits. Or the most only after a user created missions has become popular, datamined and approved by devs would it have Merits.
Part of the whole point of Merits is to give people some incentive to do pain in the ass content like Taks forces. Getting someone to do Positron TF used to be almost impossible. Just plain too long. Took me almost 4 hours last time. Gets really repetitive.
Why hasn't there been user generated content introduced as a complete module yet?
Well, it's probably something really complicated and time-consuming to create. If they ever put the time into, it got to pay off a lot in the end. While I certainly see the benefits there, whether or not it will pay itself off is another question.
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Personally, I am not totally convinced.
I don't think loot is the problem. DDO already has quite good "Blah weapon Of doing something" type loot that can be generated randomly. You could easily just have user created content randomly drop this stuff off mobs. And it is unlikely that a farm map of that would really be better than some of the quick loot chest runs people already do. For CoX it doesn't matter as people have already figured out how to get farm maps from normal Story Arcs anyway. It would be pretty much impossible to do worse than the demon farm map that many farmers use.
The major problem is that they would need to code up a random dungeon generator. CoX already has one and is entirely based on it. No dungeon is ever the same. Very similar yes. Enough to get repetitive but generated dynamically none the less. In fact even outside of the instances the maps themselvs dynamically spawn mobs based on the level and groups size of the players around them.
Because in the end you really can't make it so that players are all drawing their own maps and stuff. The storage/updating alone would be horrendous. CoX has limits on the amount of text you can store for conversation for the MA. If the maps weren't dynamically generated and the players were drawing maps from whole cloth that would be 100 times worse than that.
In order to have truly custom player created stuff you would need to radically change your content hosting model for most MMORPGs that use static content who maps and art get DL straight to the client and kept there forever.
I can agree with the main they ain't the same thread of this forum, DDO and LoTRo are vastly different. DDO sticks close to it's roots in actual D&D which is alive and well. The itroduction of the online components to D&D insider should revitalize the genra if they can finish it, as it will allow people to do real pen and paper D&D with friends from around the world online with dungeons and stories done by actual dm's. I think DDO paved the way for this idea that will, if they ever finish it, probably see imitators in most of the pen and paper sector. Games like DDO are designed with the idea of what they are in mind, it feels like I lived in a city when I played DDO, and I kept doing odd job adventures to pass my time. Kinda how I always felt in D&D when I played.
On a Side note however, if you have never played pen and paper rpgs you should, I am 26 and felt that I had missed the time of them too until I played one. It was a true blast and it allows a range of choices that no game ever has. The day they make an mmo that really captures the zen of a pen and paper game is the day I call in dead for life. As I will be playing that in a cave somewhere until I die.
Getting back to the whole player created dungeons I think this could be a great idea. Of course how much storage would it take? And would Turbine be willing to donate that storage space? There are other questions that would need to be answered as well.
As far as the loot is concerned, there can easily be placed in parameters that require a certain minimum size dungeon in order to get a chest with an additional requirement that mobs must have a certain ave CR to determine which loot table is used to fill the chest.
To add some flavor to the game, in the forum players can vote on the dungeons on their particular server and perhaps some kind of contest could be ran. The winning dungeon of each server would then get uploaded onto all the other servers and then another vote can be taken to determine the "best of the best" dungeon. They can give the winner some cheesy title like "DM" or something and maybe some free game time. Give the players the tools to build the dungeons and run this contest every couple of months and there will some great added content... The dev team could even say, "for the month of May we're looking for dungeons that challenge levels 5-8..." and see what gets submitted.
I think this could be a hoot. And if I could build the dungeon of my choice, it would be "The Tomb of Horrors, part 2" filled with tricks and traps so deadly, you had to bring a skilled rogue.. but that's just me... heh...
Ok, I am not trying to troll, nor am I anything of a fanboi. But when comparing DDO and LOTRO, is it just me or does DDO not feel like the beta of LOTRO? It's obvious Turbine used the DDO engine as a template for LOTRO, and I started the DDO trial but after a little bit of playing, it just seemed like LOTRO lacking the Tolkien charm and more leeway with the classes (pure casters being available). Don't get me wrong, I am truly not trying to bash DDO, I just simply want to know if anyone can give me reason to continue the trial if I am already playing LOTRO and they seem so alike. I appreciate the coherent input.
- Walddo
not even close to the same....from a beta tester of both games. They don't even have the same look or feel to them
I have to wonder how and why people come up with their comparisons...really
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I loved DDO. Would still be playing if it had not been set in Eberron. Some like it, it was never my taste. Would have preferred one of the classic DND realms... Greyhawk (would have been a nice salute to Gary Gygax), Forgotten Realms (not my first pick, but good nonetheless).
If they really wanted to expand the game, give us the other realms to play in. So, instead I play Warhammer which at least tried to stick to the game it was developed from. LOTRO is well done for a non pvp game. DDO is superior in game play, I mean come on... who doesnt want to carry a weapon specifically forged to work on a specific race and just smack them down... that's what DND was about.
If they really wanted to expand the game, give us the other realms to play in.
Well we are off to the eternal battlefield of Shavarath, so a plane instead of a realm. Even though it may be mainly explorer areas I am looking forward to seeing how well they do it.
As for setting I am happy with Eberron, in fact I would have been happy with any setting that was Drizzt free!
Ive played DDO when it came out and I did enjoy the combat and the dungeons, they were fun. Though I had some major issues with the game, that I just simply couldn't overlook.
- The world was real small, there were no open fields just to wonder around and explore the outside world. Not to mention that Stormreach felt more like a big chat room/lobby then an actual city.
- The settings (Eberron) is quite far from my taste and style, like FR much more.
Turbine should have made DDO with its combat system but with LOTRO's world size and type.
I love DDO, and when compared to LotR, I agree they are completely different. DDO has brought me back time and time again, LotR has not. The character customization is great, the dungeons are unique, and the combat system is a nice break from the rest of the MMO's. All that said - it has a giant issue which people seem to ovelook and I cannot for the life of me understand why.
The game lacks content. It's been out many years and there's still a tenth the content of any other MMO. It's what makes me leave each and every time. The new island and the dragon quests were great, but wtf? There is no other MMO out there that makes you repeat each quest 3-5 times, offer no other quests to go to, just to raise a level. It's moronic! Imagine a developer today saying we want to make an MMO, give lvl 1 players 10 quests to do, and if they complete all of them they'll be lvl 2...No I'm sorry, they'll still be lvl 1. They have to repeat each of those quests 3 times before raising a lvl. I'm sorry about the rant, and in truth, it pains me since I like the game so much, but it's stupid. Rule number 1 in all MMO's today is to have content. It's what sunk AoC. DDO needs to figure that out, and it seems to me they never will.
But, here's hoping they do since their game has some of the most interesting ideas out there.
The world was real small, there were no open fields just to wonder around and explore the outside world.
They've sort of worked on that. There are now a few big areas where you can wonder around and explore.
I might consider re-installing and resubbing this.
You have to be carful with these. Soem are more "open" than others. The re-done 3 barrel cove, while still having dedicated paths, is much more open than Sorrowdusk isle. Its is ok to have "paths", i nthe real world in the mountain you really only have so many options for travel. 3 barrel cove follows this with limted paths to some area and then some open expanse of sea or whatever. And the hidden underwater treasure spot is pretty cool to swim down and try to find even with a spoiler it was tricky for me.
But Sorrdusk isle may as well be a dungeon with a blue cieling.
I love DDO, and when compared to LotR, I agree they are completely different. DDO has brought me back time and time again, LotR has not. The character customization is great, the dungeons are unique, and the combat system is a nice break from the rest of the MMO's. All that said - it has a giant issue which people seem to ovelook and I cannot for the life of me understand why. The game lacks content. It's been out many years and there's still a tenth the content of any other MMO. It's what makes me leave each and every time. The new island and the dragon quests were great, but wtf? There is no other MMO out there that makes you repeat each quest 3-5 times, offer no other quests to go to, just to raise a level. It's moronic! Imagine a developer today saying we want to make an MMO, give lvl 1 players 10 quests to do, and if they complete all of them they'll be lvl 2...No I'm sorry, they'll still be lvl 1. They have to repeat each of those quests 3 times before raising a lvl. I'm sorry about the rant, and in truth, it pains me since I like the game so much, but it's stupid. Rule number 1 in all MMO's today is to have content. It's what sunk AoC. DDO needs to figure that out, and it seems to me they never will. But, here's hoping they do since their game has some of the most interesting ideas out there.
I don't fully agree that it "lacks content" just that it masks its lack of content horribly. I agree that it feels bad to repeat the same quests.
But I would say that if we mathematically went through total square footage of all instances and the players traversal over it and all that. I would bet DDO comes out comparable and probably has better utilization in that many MMO just have unused space.
But that is math and its people playing the games. The presentation and the way they direct people to use content needs help. Even though I suspect DDO has similar amounts of "content" it does not feel that way and they way they force you to use re-inforces that feeling.
I mean really I do not consider a quest log full of thrity quests and then running around the same zone in circles 10 times to be "a lot of content". Nor do I consider that as fun as a good DDO instance. But the fact remain I am doing something at least slightly different with each circle aroudn the Barren or Conall Valley. And in DDO I am repeating the exact same instance.
Its a bit of a Catch-22, but no matte what the results can't be argued the DDO formula starts to wear on most people.
But I would suggest to people that its not about amount. The key is presentation and the fact that the hoops we jump through in DDO to get a level make the already problematic presentation much worse.
I agree with your observation. Square footage you are probably right - it's the same as other MMO's. And you are correct by saying that the way they implement that sqaure footage is better, or at the least different. I like the way they did it, I just wish there was more of it. Thanks for saying what I said a bit more clearly to everyone.
Originally posted by gestalt11 I don't fully agree that it "lacks content" just that it masks its lack of content horribly.
I agree that the DDO formula is less forgiving. That said, I don't agree that this is the reason DDO is currently lacking content. The problem is the continual misusing of resources by Turbine when building quests (wrong level, bad loot, frustrating, bad XP reward, too many explorer zones, etc.) and the ease we have to level up.
Another thing that plagues DDO is the lack of non-quest timesink, to change our mind from questing.
I don't fully agree that it "lacks content" just that it masks its lack of content horribly.
I agree that the DDO formula is less forgiving. That said, I don't agree that this is the reason DDO is currently lacking content. The problem is the continual misusing of resources by Turbine when building quests (wrong level, bad loot, frustrating, bad XP reward, too many explorer zones, etc.) and the ease we have to level up.
Another thing that plagues DDO is the lack of non-quest timesink, to change our mind from questing.
I think the biggest problem is that they need a few areas that you do actually you run around in circels ten times doing more conventional quests or fathering resources or whatever. Something more "light-weight" than a dungeon. Might sound banal and same old same old MMO BS. But MMO are meant to be fun but also an activity, something to take your mind off things as a break. Sometimes you don't do heavy lifting.
The things about say the first release of WoW before any expansions, there were not enough instances to run yourself through all the levels. Also people did repeat instances easily 2-3 times. Wailing Caverns/deadmines in early 20's and the Monstary in the 30's. Most people did these multiple times.
But WoW hada whole other activity to balance things out and give people minds a break on instances. Things you can putter around on and take your own time on.
The explorer area are sort of an attempt at this but they don't accomplish it well. Even 3 Barrel Cove is not great at it because they still feel like a different version of a dungeon.
I soloed The Pit the other day just for fun on my level 8/2 wizard/Rogue WF. It took me like 2.5 hours and was crap xp. If I could have broken that up into 45 minute chunks or quests or whatever you want to call them that would have bene great but I couldn't.
Basically when i just feel like putzing around or going at my own pace my options are limited and extremely restricting.
And yeah Turbine has messed up a numbe rof things in the dungeons at various points. Silly loot, silly loot lottery stuff, the dead space in level to 7 to 10 area. Etc
But I think that would be toelrated more if the game's content was balanced more with putzing around type activities both for just plain fun and for steady xp gain or money gain.
Originally posted by gestalt11 But I think that would be toelrated more if the game's content was balanced more with putzing around type activities both for just plain fun and for steady xp gain or money gain.
It is sort of hard to disagree with you when you are this generic, hehe
Comments
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Personally, I am not totally convinced.
DDOwiki - Sharing DDO knowledge!
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Personally, I am not totally convinced.
I know what your getting at with the potential of player created content becoming a means to exploit the loot system, but they could always look at how other games manage to implement such systems like we see with CoH/V, they have no loot dropping but instead offer the player tokens which can then be handed in for relevant rewards, I'm sure that would be one way to ensure that ludicrous amounts of itmes are not dropping or the wrong type is placed within a dungeon.
However I fully realise that this is probably a monumental task, but I'm sure the community would be thrilled to see it become a reality and it must have been mentioned time and again on the main boards.
Player created content is definately the way forward for alot of MMO's not just DDO, but it would definately suit DDO better than most.
If not, completion itself? Again, that could be exploited so that can't be it.
Maybe I'm missing the obvious. If so, then I am sorry.
I can certainly agree to that however, as we both know, this is a monumental task and I'd bet that this is even more for Turbine to create than it would be for any other MMO out there.Maybe that this is our "Top Secret" project.
If it is not, then I don't think it'd be wise for them to try come up with user-generated content tools (again, they are the one in the know so I may as well be wrong) because it would take too much away from an already slow development cycle.*
*Hopefully it is slower because they devoted a lot of resources to Module 9.
DDOwiki - Sharing DDO knowledge!
Well I believe the Tokens replace the actual loot dropped by the mobs in CoH/V but don't quote me on that as the system still hasn't gone live yet but is due to in the next content update.
However I see your point in that this could still be exploited, making short dungeons, having mobs drop too many tokens or multiple tokens at once etc etc.
There would be ways to prevent or at least limit exploiting the looting system by limiting the amount of tokens available, having differing grades of tokens that are earnt via a ranking system for player created dungeons and their sensible use therein which would be judged by the players and the devs to ensure no biased voting.
Limit the amount of tokens allowed to be placed within a dungeon by only rewarding tokens on completion of the dungeon, repeating the dungeon within a certain time frame is prevented by introducing lockout timers on player content to ensure easier dungeons are not farmed.
Just a few ideas and I'm sure there are countless others that could be used to help make the experience fairer for all.
The system works in CoX because it can't be exploited very easily. First, there are no chests in CoX. All the salvage and enhancements drop randomly from MOB's. The number one way to get experience in CoX is killing MOB's so your experience-per-time is relatively consistent and linear unlike DDO where its all back loaded. Also, the instances in CoX are simple. A DDO development tool is going to be far too complex to release as a part of the game.
If they did decide to make a quest builder then it would probably be so watered down that we wouldn't even want to use it.
I've played them both extensively, i can't play lotro anymore, it's combat is sloooooooooooooowwwwww
Hehe, I know what you mean
. Now try WoW (again?). You'll fall asleep before you realize!
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I agree that DDO is used to test parts of LOTRO, the most obvious case being Monks as the Beta for Warden. Although I think vice versa is true if you look at the tree models in the new starter area.
However LOTRO does not even come close to replacing DDO as the gameplay is vastly different and LOTRO has EQ/WoW dungeons. DDO dungeons are quite a bit different and are one of the only examples of using the 3rd dimension to a large extent (anyone who has done the Pit knows what I am talking about here).
LOTRO is a nicer game. It looks better graphically, its just put together better in so many UI ways and some ideas (like the warden combos) are simply implemented better. But it cannot replace DDO.
If not, completion itself? Again, that could be exploited so that can't be it.
Maybe I'm missing the obvious. If so, then I am sorry.
I can certainly agree to that however, as we both know, this is a monumental task and I'd bet that this is even more for Turbine to create than it would be for any other MMO out there.Maybe that this is our "Top Secret" project.
If it is not, then I don't think it'd be wise for them to try come up with user-generated content tools (again, they are the one in the know so I may as well be wrong) because it would take too much away from an already slow development cycle.*
*Hopefully it is slower because they devoted a lot of resources to Module 9.
I don't think you guys are getting a good explanation of the "tokens".
These tokens are called "Merits". You can basically exchange merits for a one shot special Invention enhancement recipe. Enhancements recipes are random loot drops in general.
CoX enhancements are basically things that modify a power, making do more damage or more accuracy or cost less to use. Invention Enhancements offer some special bonuses or set bonuses that are not normally available. When this system was first releaseed the drop pools were divided into different classes. Also certain long group orietned "quests" called Task forces gave a guaranteed drop.
Certain enhancements coould only be gotten from Task force drops. However CoX being a somewhat older game with a history of mistakes did not take something into account. Some Task forces take 30 minutes and some TF take 4 hours. Yet each was rewarding with one random drop from the special TF pool. A number of highly desired recipes only dropped from this pool.
This caused the Katie Hannon TF to get run over and over because you fight the same Arch-Villain boss 10 times in quick succession and get a lot of nice chances at drops and get the TF drop. They had to nerf the quick Katie TF but some of the other long TF were still clearly screwed.
They therefore created the Merit system in which each TF was datamined for an average completion estimate and rewared with a total merit reward on completion based upon a certain Merit/minute standard.
They also added Merits to the normal Story Arcs and the various Flashbacks. However these reward at a lesser Merit/minute reward.
The Merits themselves do not reward with anything that is not obtainable by other means. They are meant more as a ways to equalize out the rewards since the drop per completion paradigm simply could not work.
Many things in CoH do not reward with Merits at all and merits are not a good way to get many types of IO enhancements. They are good to get the big ticket items. But many of the common IOs or even semi-uncommon or even rare but situationally useful IO enhancements are better gotten through the Consignment house and using merits would be a waste.
I suspect the mission architect missions will not reward with merits. Or the most only after a user created missions has become popular, datamined and approved by devs would it have Merits.
Part of the whole point of Merits is to give people some incentive to do pain in the ass content like Taks forces. Getting someone to do Positron TF used to be almost impossible. Just plain too long. Took me almost 4 hours last time. Gets really repetitive.
One of the main problem related to user-created content is that it cannot give loot as some will create quests that give too easy loot. If we could keep it, it would be devastating for the game. If we can't keep the loot we pulled, it looses out a lot of its appeal. Sure, it will reduce the mid-module blues but "How much?" is the question.
Personally, I am not totally convinced.
I don't think loot is the problem. DDO already has quite good "Blah weapon Of doing something" type loot that can be generated randomly. You could easily just have user created content randomly drop this stuff off mobs. And it is unlikely that a farm map of that would really be better than some of the quick loot chest runs people already do. For CoX it doesn't matter as people have already figured out how to get farm maps from normal Story Arcs anyway. It would be pretty much impossible to do worse than the demon farm map that many farmers use.
The major problem is that they would need to code up a random dungeon generator. CoX already has one and is entirely based on it. No dungeon is ever the same. Very similar yes. Enough to get repetitive but generated dynamically none the less. In fact even outside of the instances the maps themselvs dynamically spawn mobs based on the level and groups size of the players around them.
Because in the end you really can't make it so that players are all drawing their own maps and stuff. The storage/updating alone would be horrendous. CoX has limits on the amount of text you can store for conversation for the MA. If the maps weren't dynamically generated and the players were drawing maps from whole cloth that would be 100 times worse than that.
In order to have truly custom player created stuff you would need to radically change your content hosting model for most MMORPGs that use static content who maps and art get DL straight to the client and kept there forever.
I can agree with the main they ain't the same thread of this forum, DDO and LoTRo are vastly different. DDO sticks close to it's roots in actual D&D which is alive and well. The itroduction of the online components to D&D insider should revitalize the genra if they can finish it, as it will allow people to do real pen and paper D&D with friends from around the world online with dungeons and stories done by actual dm's. I think DDO paved the way for this idea that will, if they ever finish it, probably see imitators in most of the pen and paper sector. Games like DDO are designed with the idea of what they are in mind, it feels like I lived in a city when I played DDO, and I kept doing odd job adventures to pass my time. Kinda how I always felt in D&D when I played.
On a Side note however, if you have never played pen and paper rpgs you should, I am 26 and felt that I had missed the time of them too until I played one. It was a true blast and it allows a range of choices that no game ever has. The day they make an mmo that really captures the zen of a pen and paper game is the day I call in dead for life. As I will be playing that in a cave somewhere until I die.
Getting back to the whole player created dungeons I think this could be a great idea. Of course how much storage would it take? And would Turbine be willing to donate that storage space? There are other questions that would need to be answered as well.
As far as the loot is concerned, there can easily be placed in parameters that require a certain minimum size dungeon in order to get a chest with an additional requirement that mobs must have a certain ave CR to determine which loot table is used to fill the chest.
To add some flavor to the game, in the forum players can vote on the dungeons on their particular server and perhaps some kind of contest could be ran. The winning dungeon of each server would then get uploaded onto all the other servers and then another vote can be taken to determine the "best of the best" dungeon. They can give the winner some cheesy title like "DM" or something and maybe some free game time. Give the players the tools to build the dungeons and run this contest every couple of months and there will some great added content... The dev team could even say, "for the month of May we're looking for dungeons that challenge levels 5-8..." and see what gets submitted.
I think this could be a hoot. And if I could build the dungeon of my choice, it would be "The Tomb of Horrors, part 2" filled with tricks and traps so deadly, you had to bring a skilled rogue.. but that's just me... heh...
not even close to the same....from a beta tester of both games. They don't even have the same look or feel to them
I have to wonder how and why people come up with their comparisons...really
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I loved DDO. Would still be playing if it had not been set in Eberron. Some like it, it was never my taste. Would have preferred one of the classic DND realms... Greyhawk (would have been a nice salute to Gary Gygax), Forgotten Realms (not my first pick, but good nonetheless).
If they really wanted to expand the game, give us the other realms to play in. So, instead I play Warhammer which at least tried to stick to the game it was developed from. LOTRO is well done for a non pvp game. DDO is superior in game play, I mean come on... who doesnt want to carry a weapon specifically forged to work on a specific race and just smack them down... that's what DND was about.
Well we are off to the eternal battlefield of Shavarath, so a plane instead of a realm. Even though it may be mainly explorer areas I am looking forward to seeing how well they do it.
As for setting I am happy with Eberron, in fact I would have been happy with any setting that was Drizzt free!
Ive played DDO when it came out and I did enjoy the combat and the dungeons, they were fun. Though I had some major issues with the game, that I just simply couldn't overlook.
- The world was real small, there were no open fields just to wonder around and explore the outside world. Not to mention that Stormreach felt more like a big chat room/lobby then an actual city.
- The settings (Eberron) is quite far from my taste and style, like FR much more.
Turbine should have made DDO with its combat system but with LOTRO's world size and type.
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I might consider re-installing and resubbing this.
I love DDO, and when compared to LotR, I agree they are completely different. DDO has brought me back time and time again, LotR has not. The character customization is great, the dungeons are unique, and the combat system is a nice break from the rest of the MMO's. All that said - it has a giant issue which people seem to ovelook and I cannot for the life of me understand why.
The game lacks content. It's been out many years and there's still a tenth the content of any other MMO. It's what makes me leave each and every time. The new island and the dragon quests were great, but wtf? There is no other MMO out there that makes you repeat each quest 3-5 times, offer no other quests to go to, just to raise a level. It's moronic! Imagine a developer today saying we want to make an MMO, give lvl 1 players 10 quests to do, and if they complete all of them they'll be lvl 2...No I'm sorry, they'll still be lvl 1. They have to repeat each of those quests 3 times before raising a lvl. I'm sorry about the rant, and in truth, it pains me since I like the game so much, but it's stupid. Rule number 1 in all MMO's today is to have content. It's what sunk AoC. DDO needs to figure that out, and it seems to me they never will.
But, here's hoping they do since their game has some of the most interesting ideas out there.
I might consider re-installing and resubbing this.
You have to be carful with these. Soem are more "open" than others. The re-done 3 barrel cove, while still having dedicated paths, is much more open than Sorrowdusk isle. Its is ok to have "paths", i nthe real world in the mountain you really only have so many options for travel. 3 barrel cove follows this with limted paths to some area and then some open expanse of sea or whatever. And the hidden underwater treasure spot is pretty cool to swim down and try to find even with a spoiler it was tricky for me.
But Sorrdusk isle may as well be a dungeon with a blue cieling.
I don't fully agree that it "lacks content" just that it masks its lack of content horribly. I agree that it feels bad to repeat the same quests.
But I would say that if we mathematically went through total square footage of all instances and the players traversal over it and all that. I would bet DDO comes out comparable and probably has better utilization in that many MMO just have unused space.
But that is math and its people playing the games. The presentation and the way they direct people to use content needs help. Even though I suspect DDO has similar amounts of "content" it does not feel that way and they way they force you to use re-inforces that feeling.
I mean really I do not consider a quest log full of thrity quests and then running around the same zone in circles 10 times to be "a lot of content". Nor do I consider that as fun as a good DDO instance. But the fact remain I am doing something at least slightly different with each circle aroudn the Barren or Conall Valley. And in DDO I am repeating the exact same instance.
Its a bit of a Catch-22, but no matte what the results can't be argued the DDO formula starts to wear on most people.
But I would suggest to people that its not about amount. The key is presentation and the fact that the hoops we jump through in DDO to get a level make the already problematic presentation much worse.
Gestalt11,
I agree with your observation. Square footage you are probably right - it's the same as other MMO's. And you are correct by saying that the way they implement that sqaure footage is better, or at the least different. I like the way they did it, I just wish there was more of it. Thanks for saying what I said a bit more clearly to everyone.
Another thing that plagues DDO is the lack of non-quest timesink, to change our mind from questing.
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Another thing that plagues DDO is the lack of non-quest timesink, to change our mind from questing.
I think the biggest problem is that they need a few areas that you do actually you run around in circels ten times doing more conventional quests or fathering resources or whatever. Something more "light-weight" than a dungeon. Might sound banal and same old same old MMO BS. But MMO are meant to be fun but also an activity, something to take your mind off things as a break. Sometimes you don't do heavy lifting.
The things about say the first release of WoW before any expansions, there were not enough instances to run yourself through all the levels. Also people did repeat instances easily 2-3 times. Wailing Caverns/deadmines in early 20's and the Monstary in the 30's. Most people did these multiple times.
But WoW hada whole other activity to balance things out and give people minds a break on instances. Things you can putter around on and take your own time on.
The explorer area are sort of an attempt at this but they don't accomplish it well. Even 3 Barrel Cove is not great at it because they still feel like a different version of a dungeon.
I soloed The Pit the other day just for fun on my level 8/2 wizard/Rogue WF. It took me like 2.5 hours and was crap xp. If I could have broken that up into 45 minute chunks or quests or whatever you want to call them that would have bene great but I couldn't.
Basically when i just feel like putzing around or going at my own pace my options are limited and extremely restricting.
And yeah Turbine has messed up a numbe rof things in the dungeons at various points. Silly loot, silly loot lottery stuff, the dead space in level to 7 to 10 area. Etc
But I think that would be toelrated more if the game's content was balanced more with putzing around type activities both for just plain fun and for steady xp gain or money gain.
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