I find it interesting how the vultures attack once they see the sight of blood. As the saying goes - no one reads good news, people want the dirt. The attacks on Gary Whiting. The convulted half truths about managment. It would be humerous if it wasn't a sad fact that some percentage of people may actually believe this stuff. Whiting has pissed off lots of people as he has been raising funds for Stargate and CME's other games. Some are pissed off because they want a piece of the action and Gary said no. Others think they can boot Whiting out and somehow they will be in charge. It is just interesting that when funding wasn't a problem, then no one had concerns about Whiting - but when the company became at-risk and funding was scarce - Whiting became public enemy number 1.
I just want this game to get funded, get build and get launched. More focus by everyone to work together and less finger pointing - less distractions. A few months ago, people were applauding what a great development team, Jenson had put together - now Jenson is characterized as a crook with Whiting - what a fickle crowd. Angry ex-employees, angry investors, angry past due vendors all what to blame their problems on CME and its management - clearly there are lots of people hurting given the affects the economy has had on everyone and on CME - but let's get past the blame game and move on. Let use the forums to talk about the game - not about political crap.
I have a feeling that some of these angel investors are waiting for mmoguls to fail, which they are at the moment in my opinion with Bret walking out and revealing some of the dirt on GW like pocking money for himself and to fund his failing business's itzyourmall and nowcorp. I for one thing mmoguls burning will be the god send CME will need to continue in production and release this game. Hopefully mmoguls will go sooner rather then later and we can move on.
Whiting is spread so thin with all the different companies he is involved in that none of them get much of his attention. MMOGULs failure or success has little impact on CME. No CME money has ever gone to MMOGULs or to any or Whitings other companies, but it clearly has been a distraction and a nusiance.
Since MMOGULS is not tied to Stargate, the sooner it goes away the better. I got a copy of the MMOGULS documents and they are now prohibited from mentioning or using Stargate in any way - finally some rationale thought.
Whiting is spread so thin with all the different companies he is involved in that none of them get much of his attention. MMOGULs failure or success has little impact on CME. No CME money has ever gone to MMOGULs or to any or Whitings other companies, but it clearly has been a distraction and a nusiance.
Could you explain why Jeff Knowles & Brett would believe there were missing funds?
Also, if MMOGULS's failure has little impact on CME, then why cant they make payroll again and are using the MMOGUL's failure as the main reason?
I don't think MMOGULs had "missing funds" . Whiting took them - they weren't missing - Jeff and Bret both knew this and they didn't like it. Whiting had control of the funds and used them elsewhere. But these funds didn't come to CME.
CME is iimpacted by crap that goes on at MMOGULs because Jeff Knowles is the credit card processor for MMOGULs and if MMOGULs falls apart then he gets concerned about charge backs and this impacts when he will close his deal with CME. For CME it would be best if it either fails or not quickly - so CME can get its funding.
Brett used to work for mmoguls but quit after he discovered that money was missing from the financle books and when he confronted Gary over it Gary never gave him an answer. So in the end Brett left and has joined a rival comapany of mmoguls and mentioned what mmoguls was like on a audio conferance. Bascily Gary can't do anything really to Brett since Brett has this hanging over Gary. So if Gary was to sue Brett for revealing this type of info Brett can use what he has and Gary would be in no uncertain terms screwed. I say a lot of people have left this mmoguls company and I say the true figures of members aren't acruate especially since there where reports by ex CME devs that they where forced to join mmoguls ( this is supposed to be the main reason why so many devs left the company). mmoguls I hope will get shut down as I say there are more lies then truths with Gary and what he has done. I say if Gary was never picked to raise funds for CME that this whole trouble whould have never happened. I say remove the bad seed and maybe the siiuation will improve. *crosses fingers* Im only here for SGW and I cant wait for the game I just hope mmoguls gets sorted so we can almost garantee a release of what appears to be a good game.
Question is - how do you remove or get rid of a 51% shareholder - and if your stuck with him - is there anyway to make this work. Separating the facts from the fiction is tricky. If the company had money - then it would be easier to ignore or remove Whiting, but without money - the battle will kill it all.
If you look at the Arizona state govt. site, Whiting is listed as the only member of the board of directors now. He therefore has full functional control of the company. If the CEO won't do what he wants, he can fire him and appoint anyone, including himself, to the role.
As to whether the shareholders have any recourse, I can't say. I suppose it depends on what they agreed to. I get the impression that there are a lot of small investors, and I wonder whether he took advantage of that. They might not even have voting shares.
Question is - how do you remove or get rid of a 51% shareholder - and if your stuck with him - is there anyway to make this work. Separating the facts from the fiction is tricky. If the company had money - then it would be easier to ignore or remove Whiting, but without money - the battle will kill it all.
Since he is the majority shareholder and owner of a non listed company, you force him to sell his shares to and individual who will have 51% and wishes to become the chairman. Since Whiting is unwilling to do so the only possibility I see is the company going bankrupt and becoming such a liability to him that he sells and leaves or just goes chapter 11.
MMOGULS and CME are now symbiotes (pun intended), without one the other dies. Whiting will not let go of CME while MMOGULs is still in operation and likwise for MMOGULs. Either the company goes chapter 11 and sells assets to a company that can and is willing to finish SGW (ala Sigil and SOE). Or MGM pulls the license and awards it to someone else leaving Whiting high and dry and forcing him to sell CME assets with the staff migrating to the new company.
I have a feeling that if another company ends up with this it could be SOE since MGM is a Sony company, but Whiting makes Smedley look like a choir boy so what the hell. Whatever happens this isn't going to be pretty, I just hope another company will take on SGW and employ some of the ex CME staff. However I doubt that with this economic crisis many companies would be willing to take on the burden right now.
Although if it were close enough to be able to finish and launch within six months an MMO company may take it on.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I say you are more then likely true there agricola. SGW will probably be finished by another company but if you bring it up the idea is haunting. People hate the idea of SOE making SGW. Infact the most popular choice was NCsoft to finish SGW if CME goes bust and cannot finish. But I myself would be happy to see SOE take the game myself Also I loved the pun you made :P Also who would think I would agree
I don't know how IP licenses are usually written--can MGM take it back for some "subjective" reason (like "tarnishing the reputation of the IP")? If so, this might be grounds for a lawsuit from GW. I would, perhaps, expect that the license could be pulled due to a bankruptcy or maybe a time limit from when it was granted. These would be harder to contest.
However, if the license is independent of the assets of CME, then you can't completely presume that the game as written would be sold to someone to continue. This would have to be a 3-way deal between MGM, GW, and the new buyer. Perhaps more likely is what happened with Perpetual and Cryptic over STO. That was a total reboot of the game development, not a continuation, at least from what I heard.
I don't know how this deal was structured either. However, if MGM was smart they would have had a "Minimim Royalty/Revenue Clause" whereby the license could be yanked if a certain minimum revenue threshold wasn't met. That protects companies from having thier IP dead-ended by being licensed to some-one who effectively does nothing with it. I think that sort of clause is pretty standard with these sort of deals.....particularly if there is any exclusivity built into the deal....which I think most game companies try to get in the contracts...at least for a specified time frame.....otherwise the IP holder could just turn around and liscense the IP to 3 game companies at the same time.
If that's the case.... then the only thing that needs to happen for MGM to be able to yank the license would be CME failing to provide them the minimum revenue specified in the contract. That would be pretty lawsuit proof.
Of course, this is all conjecture as we don't know any of the details of the deal. But yeah, I think the best chances of SGW seeing the light of day is for MGM to yank the license....or some sort of forced bankruptcy where the courts step in and appoint a controler to sell off CME's assets.
I say you are more then likely true there agricola. SGW will probably be finished by another company but if you bring it up the idea is haunting. People hate the idea of SOE making SGW. Infact the most popular choice was NCsoft to finish SGW if CME goes bust and cannot finish. But I myself would be happy to see SOE take the game myself Also I loved the pun you made :P Also who would think I would agree
I'm still not convinced it's the real supremeaaron posting myself, due to recent logical perspectives and a lack of blind faith. I want to know who you are and what you've done with him!
Seriously I'd like to see it finished as it has a great potential that could be realized with the right company backing it. There are allegedly 35 worlds and the stargate would be a perfect place to link planets (large zones) together without a loss of immersion, much like starports were in SWG.
I just hope it doesn't go the way of previous stargate games (SGA).
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I say you are more then likely true there agricola. SGW will probably be finished by another company but if you bring it up the idea is haunting. People hate the idea of SOE making SGW. Infact the most popular choice was NCsoft to finish SGW if CME goes bust and cannot finish. But I myself would be happy to see SOE take the game myself Also I loved the pun you made :P Also who would think I would agree
I'm still not convinced it's the real supremeaaron posting myself, due to recent logical perspectives and a lack of blind faith. I want to know who you are and what you've done with him!
Seriously I'd like to see it finished as it has a great potential that could be realized with the right company backing it. There are allegedly 35 worlds and the stargate would be a perfect place to link planets (large zones) together without a loss of immersion, much like starports were in SWG.
I just hope it doesn't go the way of previous stargate games (SGA).
yes its the still the same supremeaaron There wont be 35 worlds at launch I really doubt that I think CME want atleast a min of 20 worlds and we know of what atleast 5. I am continuing my craazy like support of SGW but I just aint happy about what people like Gary Whiting has done. I really hope it doesnt go the way of stargate sg1 the alliance because then I would have made my SGW fan site for no reason
ps My eyes have always being open to what mmoguls and GW have done, I have just had time to think it over :P
I was thinking about CME, SGW, and MMOGULS while I was making dinner. I'd like to see if anyone else agrees with my musings.
We all know that building a game is expensive, and a AAA title based on a "big franchise IP" like SG even more so. And anyone who knows the industry knows that projects are always underfunded, over budget, and late to delivery. And this is exacerbated when you are a start-up with no existing product to fund the development, just venture capital.
So, it behooves any company to get the most money, and spend it judiciously. But, look at what CME did. It formed FireSky, a publishing arm, and also three other studios, that were all developing other games. Joe Ybarra talked about one, or maybe two others in an interview at Gamasutra.
Come again? You know that you are in a situation where cash management will be critical to success, and you go and start 4 separate entities, burning precious VC capital before you have any revenue? You start a publishing arm ahead of time? OK, in the long run, that might make you money, but remember, you're on borrowed time here. Using an existing publisher at the end is almost like adding a nice fat VC investor up front.
These seem like bonehead moves, especially in retrospect where CME is in danger of folding. But these guys were not some newbies. They have, if I recall, a lot of experience. So why?
It is my hypothesis that this is all, completely, because of MMOGULS. It is not simply some embarrassing hamfisted late attempt by GW to fund CME and/or bilk a little more money out of people, and one that just contributed to the tarnish of CME. I submit for your consideration that MMOGULS was the central strategy upon which CME rested, maybe if not from the start, for quite a while.
Why? Think about it. Say you just have CME, and you finish SGW. So now you go to a traditional publisher, and say, "we'd like you to handle the distribution. Oh, by the way, we are operating it under an MLM." Any "large name" publisher is likely to run away. I'm sorry for all you MLM supporters out there (if you are out there...) but MLM is just viewed with a sizable amount of suspicion. Thus, CME formed their own publisher to handle it.
Next, MMOGULS couldn't launch with just a single game, even if it was a wildly successful SGW. The entire premise of iSNAP demanded a suite of games. So, sure, you could probably get a few flash games and the like, but you really want some "A" games to go with it, right? So, who can you approach? Oh yeah, there's that MLM stigma again.... So, if you can't license them, you've got to build them yourself, and thus, you form 3 other studios...
Note how all these companies were in the process of forming from the beginning of 2008 (for Firesky), and I think the other development studios were started even earlier, but I'm not sure. Thus, to me it seems like the entire business structure of CME was developed FOR MMOGULS, and not the other way around.
So, does this make sense? Do you agree, or disagree?
Looks to me like SOE is a little busy at the moment--maybe too busy to come running onto a sinking ship with empty buckets to save the day the way it did with Vanguard. From all I see on the official SGW forums, I tend to believe some form of the game might actually make it out the gate. It might be a complete piece of crap, but it will get done. The over-worked, under-paid developers will be able to move on to the next opportunity and put this nightmare behind them.
Zhiroc, your theory sounds very plausable to me. I'd agree since they've had this isnap thing planned all the way along, it seems they created other studios and planned to bring it all together at the end of 2008. But it seems that team Whiting have grossly misjudged what it takes to make a game in both time and money. Hence the current situation we have now.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
The theory of MMOGULS and it all coming together might have actually worked, if the different divisions in the company actually communicated with each other.
ALL of Production and the devs knew there was no way in hell the game would be done in 2008. They had missed milestone after milestone (having no recourse or incentive to hit these marks didn’t help either).
The right hand didn’t tell the left hand, ”hey we missed some big marks….so maybe we should hold off on hiring a publishing arm for another 6 months” Nope, with blinders on, they pushed forward as if was business as usual .
Unfortunately, the funding was on a much stricter schedule. If SGW was near gold in December, MMOGULS would have succeeded, everyone at CME would be working on the next expansion and Gary would stay out of jail. It’s a swing and a miss for that team!
Having sat back and watched alot of the drama unfold I have had several thoughts cross my mind.
Taking into considerations the allegations floating around about CME, MMOGULS, MONDELIS (a break away splinterwith nothing to do with CME), FIRESKY, and the other dev houses.
The main connection with all these is the people running them, that we know of.
Personally I am still unsure of the whole DIRECT link between MMOGULS and CME, apart from the guys at the top, we can see that MMOGULS have now stated they are not in a business partnership with CME, which only leaves 'people' as the link between these two entities. (I wouldnt trust any information on CME site or on the Firesky site atm).
Now dont go all flame on me, but my thoughts on the whole MMOGULS thing was that it was more than likely a system that would have been brought in at a much later date, no exclusivity but as one route to market. My thoughts on this were that money could have been running out with some bad management decisions being made about expanding portfolio's and the company without an initial product. This was done due with the overly hyped numbers that would flock to MMOGULS. If they had the number they were claiming, the guys at the top would have had huge cash benefits from running the company which they have every right to put into other investments. (not money from the mmoguls company, but actual cash they earned from running it, e.g. commisions).
My thoughts on this is that MMOLGULS was pushed through to generate personal income to the people that had high positions at MMOGULS and also have already invested in CME, this extra revenue (there earnings from MMOGULS) would have then been used to invest more money into CME.
Now as things started to go down hill, some people decided to throw the SGW title into the MMOGULS pot, before anything had been agreed on, people assumed (or were led to assume) everything was a done deal, when it wasnt, again this is my thoughts on the matter and maybe completely wrong. When the general cominuty heard of this there was an uproar with people saying it HAD happened, not that its GOING to happen possibly. Then MMGULS saw the community for what it really is, not a bunch of people looking to make money, but wanting to play a game, and the whole MLM negativity side of it hit the fan spreading it far and wide, and literally ripped mmoguls apart at the seams.
The main problem here in my opinion were that comments were made as fact, lets speculate, say the CME crowd that are at MMOGULS said that they would get exclusive distribution, or would swing it that way, cos they are on the board, nothing has been agreed, or even mentioned at CME, and they start using these comments as fact, instead of deals yet to be decided on.
By the time the MMOGULS gets the solid deal even before its agreed upon, the bad press has already hit and things fall apart, MGM steps in, and everything is going to pot, purely on the basis of what was speculation, which mmoguls starts stating is fact.
MMOGULS breaks apart at the seems and MONDELIS is born, with the concept and vertually identical system, but without making bold statments of deals that are in the works as done deals, without certain senior management at CME or MMOGULS, its as if they know the idea is a good one, but dont want all the baggage that certain individuals have given both CME and MMOGULS. (personally I still think its a bad idea, trying to sell a comunity a service that they dont really want).
Overall my opinion is that the guys running MMOGULS and very much linked into investors at CME, would have used the cash they made from MMOGULS and filtered it back into CME, but the problem with that is that someone at the top suddenly started to use the cash for something else (if this is true I dont know, were the cash went I dont know).
The whole thing smells bad, and the guys left with most of this crap are the workers at CME, the investors in MMOGULS that were misled and it wouldnt suprise me at all if the only people that lose out are the guys that are actually doing all the work, and the top management walk away without so much as a hiccup in there cash flow.
As to the statement about investors waiting there time now, I would agree, its to much to bail out a company now, and possibly keep the same senior management at top, no one is gonna invest in that, but there will definately be a scramble for the peices when if/it falls, and someone could pick up a pretty sweet deal, a MMORPG thats well into dev with a great IP, and they could pick it up for peanuts.
final thoughts, someone tried to make a lot money out of product that wasnt available, instead of waiting for the product to be finished before trying to make another revenue stream from it.
final thoughts, someone tried to make a lot money out of product that wasnt available, instead of waiting for the product to be finished before trying to make another revenue stream from it.
I'd say that the problem was that SGW didn't launch when expected. Gary Whiting owns both MMOGULs, CME, Itzyourmall and the license for SGW. It seems the plan was to launch SGW and MMOGULs simultaneously late last year before Christmass but only MMOGULs did. MMOGULs would sell SGW through Itzyourmall, but SGW didn't launch and now that MGM is sorting out this problem since CME can't launch SGW this year.
CME staff have been given MMOGULs memberships, if that isn't a connection I don't know what is!
Since CME and MMOGULs are symbiotes if one dies then so does the other, CME fell sick last year and is now in a coma. MMOGULs is slowly falling apart and breaking apart, also when the same guy owns all the companies involved in this dirt deal you don't need contracts. He just went through his company Itzyourmall to add a deniability clause when MGM started asking questions. Also he has been quoted at MMOGULs meetings encouraging people to form commands in game and recruit people into the pyramid scheme.
Someone else has to finish SGW now, as CME no longer has the cash or the personnel to do so.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
I dont think that senior management would want to lose SGW at all, and they are trying the best to actually hold onto it as hard as possible. Problem here is they pay other things, do not know whether to belive that other been paid site at all, personally I think its someone just messing with CME.
Anyways I bet the top guys will do as much as possible to hold onto CME and if that goes mmoguls will basically have nothing. If mmoguls goes, it just hits the pockets of the investors, not CME directly, but indirectly.
My guess is they wont be getting any more rev from mmoguls now. so to them its just a dead wieght.
What I have seen of Stargate makes me very excited but that Black Goose name of Gary Whiting keeps poping up all the time. I tried to gather some information about CME & Gary Whiting & the link to Mmoguls kept poping up. So I go to there sight, Mmoguls, and find out Gary Whiting is ruining yet another good company & idea. What does in know about MLM's or business in general. I give him kudos for bringing together investors & developers for Stargate but that's were it all stops! I found out that all the management of Mmoguls, who understand MLM business, resigned within 6 weeks of the company starting. I can understand one resignation but the whole staff? Seems like G Whiting is smarter than everyone else or again thinks he might be King or Prophet, seeing knowing all! There is a simple solution to all the problems of Whiting's enterprises, CME, CMG, Stargate, & Mmoguls, get Whiting out of the business side & let the professionals run the companies before your reputation and lack of business savy destroy everything!! Gary Whiting is the major stock holder of Mmoguls & don't let anyone fool you especially Whiting. BEWARE OF INVESTING ONE DOLLAR WITH GARY WHITING AT THE HELM!!!
What I have seen of Stargate makes me very excited but that Black Goose name of Gary Whiting keeps poping up all the time. I tried to gather some information about CME & Gary Whiting & the link to Mmoguls kept poping up. So I go to there sight, Mmoguls, and find out Gary Whiting is ruining yet another good company & idea. What does in know about MLM's or business in general. I give him kudos for bringing together investors & developers for Stargate but that's were it all stops! I found out that all the management of Mmoguls, who understand MLM business, resigned within 6 weeks of the company starting. I can understand one resignation but the whole staff? Seems like G Whiting is smarter than everyone else or again thinks he might be King or Prophet, seeing knowing all! There is a simple solution to all the problems of Whiting's enterprises, CME, CMG, Stargate, & Mmoguls, get Whiting out of the business side & let the professionals run the companies before your reputation and lack of business savy destroy everything!! Gary Whiting is the major stock holder of Mmoguls & don't let anyone fool you especially Whiting. BEWARE OF INVESTING ONE DOLLAR WITH GARY WHITING AT THE HELM!!!
While Gary definately own a chunk of blame, eliminating him will not solve the problems CME has. keep in mind, CME only has the money it has because of Gary's ability to raise the funds ($50 million!) in the first place. He did it with a team of talent of course and each has their right claim a portion of that raised, but GW brought them all together in the first place. The man can raise money that's for sure.
Eliminating him will still leave a management team that has proven incompentant at managing the ability to get a game launched. The CEO (Jenson) was bonused on studio creation, not game completion. So what did CME do? Open lots of studios, hire lots of people, over a third of which were paid to work on things other than SGW.
Then you have the SGW team itself. They were given $25 million of the $50 million to build an MMO. They were given 3 GOOD years (before stuff started to fall apart) and they failed. Their "beta' release was an alpha. They consistently lied and glossed over public announcements. Most of their milestones were missed (and glossed over). They never proved their technology could do more than lag out with a medium number of connections (rumor has it about 800 max on the server during the tail end of beta, that was after weeks of only 100 or 200). Sure, if they had another 2 years and funds, I'm positive they could get "something" out the door.
But they don't have that time or that money. The whole time while building the game they kept pushing back release dates, missing milestones, mismanaging design. They put a good show on for the public but behind the scenes there was no accountability and often things operated as if the money would never stop coming. To be fair, they were often told that they could have whatever they needed. But failure to deliver on schedule in the Production team and immediate leaderships fault. Failure to hold them accountable is the CEO's fault. I'm sure there were many great successes, there were just larger looming failures. There is no other answer. After $50 million in spend, the company CME failed to deliver a title. After $25 million in spend, the SGW team failed to make even a successful beta. These are facts, not opinions and they are signs of failure.
No one here has any comprehension of what the internal politics were like (unless someone here was on those leadership teams and isn't saying). We won't know the real nitty gritty details until CME caves and some of those folks choose to talk. Someone always does, look at every other major MMO failure, someone always spills the beans, usually at least two people. We'll see what happens when CME eventually closes its doors.
Comments
I find it interesting how the vultures attack once they see the sight of blood. As the saying goes - no one reads good news, people want the dirt. The attacks on Gary Whiting. The convulted half truths about managment. It would be humerous if it wasn't a sad fact that some percentage of people may actually believe this stuff. Whiting has pissed off lots of people as he has been raising funds for Stargate and CME's other games. Some are pissed off because they want a piece of the action and Gary said no. Others think they can boot Whiting out and somehow they will be in charge. It is just interesting that when funding wasn't a problem, then no one had concerns about Whiting - but when the company became at-risk and funding was scarce - Whiting became public enemy number 1.
I just want this game to get funded, get build and get launched. More focus by everyone to work together and less finger pointing - less distractions. A few months ago, people were applauding what a great development team, Jenson had put together - now Jenson is characterized as a crook with Whiting - what a fickle crowd. Angry ex-employees, angry investors, angry past due vendors all what to blame their problems on CME and its management - clearly there are lots of people hurting given the affects the economy has had on everyone and on CME - but let's get past the blame game and move on. Let use the forums to talk about the game - not about political crap.
I have a feeling that some of these angel investors are waiting for mmoguls to fail, which they are at the moment in my opinion with Bret walking out and revealing some of the dirt on GW like pocking money for himself and to fund his failing business's itzyourmall and nowcorp. I for one thing mmoguls burning will be the god send CME will need to continue in production and release this game. Hopefully mmoguls will go sooner rather then later and we can move on.
Whiting is spread so thin with all the different companies he is involved in that none of them get much of his attention. MMOGULs failure or success has little impact on CME. No CME money has ever gone to MMOGULs or to any or Whitings other companies, but it clearly has been a distraction and a nusiance.
Since MMOGULS is not tied to Stargate, the sooner it goes away the better. I got a copy of the MMOGULS documents and they are now prohibited from mentioning or using Stargate in any way - finally some rationale thought.
Could you explain why Jeff Knowles & Brett would believe there were missing funds?
Also, if MMOGULS's failure has little impact on CME, then why cant they make payroll again and are using the MMOGUL's failure as the main reason?
I don't think MMOGULs had "missing funds" . Whiting took them - they weren't missing - Jeff and Bret both knew this and they didn't like it. Whiting had control of the funds and used them elsewhere. But these funds didn't come to CME.
CME is iimpacted by crap that goes on at MMOGULs because Jeff Knowles is the credit card processor for MMOGULs and if MMOGULs falls apart then he gets concerned about charge backs and this impacts when he will close his deal with CME. For CME it would be best if it either fails or not quickly - so CME can get its funding.
Brett used to work for mmoguls but quit after he discovered that money was missing from the financle books and when he confronted Gary over it Gary never gave him an answer. So in the end Brett left and has joined a rival comapany of mmoguls and mentioned what mmoguls was like on a audio conferance. Bascily Gary can't do anything really to Brett since Brett has this hanging over Gary. So if Gary was to sue Brett for revealing this type of info Brett can use what he has and Gary would be in no uncertain terms screwed. I say a lot of people have left this mmoguls company and I say the true figures of members aren't acruate especially since there where reports by ex CME devs that they where forced to join mmoguls ( this is supposed to be the main reason why so many devs left the company). mmoguls I hope will get shut down as I say there are more lies then truths with Gary and what he has done. I say if Gary was never picked to raise funds for CME that this whole trouble whould have never happened. I say remove the bad seed and maybe the siiuation will improve. *crosses fingers* Im only here for SGW and I cant wait for the game I just hope mmoguls gets sorted so we can almost garantee a release of what appears to be a good game.
Question is - how do you remove or get rid of a 51% shareholder - and if your stuck with him - is there anyway to make this work. Separating the facts from the fiction is tricky. If the company had money - then it would be easier to ignore or remove Whiting, but without money - the battle will kill it all.
If you look at the Arizona state govt. site, Whiting is listed as the only member of the board of directors now. He therefore has full functional control of the company. If the CEO won't do what he wants, he can fire him and appoint anyone, including himself, to the role.
As to whether the shareholders have any recourse, I can't say. I suppose it depends on what they agreed to. I get the impression that there are a lot of small investors, and I wonder whether he took advantage of that. They might not even have voting shares.
Since he is the majority shareholder and owner of a non listed company, you force him to sell his shares to and individual who will have 51% and wishes to become the chairman. Since Whiting is unwilling to do so the only possibility I see is the company going bankrupt and becoming such a liability to him that he sells and leaves or just goes chapter 11.
MMOGULS and CME are now symbiotes (pun intended), without one the other dies. Whiting will not let go of CME while MMOGULs is still in operation and likwise for MMOGULs. Either the company goes chapter 11 and sells assets to a company that can and is willing to finish SGW (ala Sigil and SOE). Or MGM pulls the license and awards it to someone else leaving Whiting high and dry and forcing him to sell CME assets with the staff migrating to the new company.
I have a feeling that if another company ends up with this it could be SOE since MGM is a Sony company, but Whiting makes Smedley look like a choir boy so what the hell. Whatever happens this isn't going to be pretty, I just hope another company will take on SGW and employ some of the ex CME staff. However I doubt that with this economic crisis many companies would be willing to take on the burden right now.
Although if it were close enough to be able to finish and launch within six months an MMO company may take it on.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I say you are more then likely true there agricola. SGW will probably be finished by another company but if you bring it up the idea is haunting. People hate the idea of SOE making SGW. Infact the most popular choice was NCsoft to finish SGW if CME goes bust and cannot finish. But I myself would be happy to see SOE take the game myself
Also I loved the pun you made :P Also who would think I would agree 
I don't know how IP licenses are usually written--can MGM take it back for some "subjective" reason (like "tarnishing the reputation of the IP")? If so, this might be grounds for a lawsuit from GW. I would, perhaps, expect that the license could be pulled due to a bankruptcy or maybe a time limit from when it was granted. These would be harder to contest.
However, if the license is independent of the assets of CME, then you can't completely presume that the game as written would be sold to someone to continue. This would have to be a 3-way deal between MGM, GW, and the new buyer. Perhaps more likely is what happened with Perpetual and Cryptic over STO. That was a total reboot of the game development, not a continuation, at least from what I heard.
I don't know how this deal was structured either. However, if MGM was smart they would have had a "Minimim Royalty/Revenue Clause" whereby the license could be yanked if a certain minimum revenue threshold wasn't met. That protects companies from having thier IP dead-ended by being licensed to some-one who effectively does nothing with it. I think that sort of clause is pretty standard with these sort of deals.....particularly if there is any exclusivity built into the deal....which I think most game companies try to get in the contracts...at least for a specified time frame.....otherwise the IP holder could just turn around and liscense the IP to 3 game companies at the same time.
If that's the case.... then the only thing that needs to happen for MGM to be able to yank the license would be CME failing to provide them the minimum revenue specified in the contract. That would be pretty lawsuit proof.
Of course, this is all conjecture as we don't know any of the details of the deal. But yeah, I think the best chances of SGW seeing the light of day is for MGM to yank the license....or some sort of forced bankruptcy where the courts step in and appoint a controler to sell off CME's assets.
I'm still not convinced it's the real supremeaaron posting myself, due to recent logical perspectives and a lack of blind faith. I want to know who you are and what you've done with him!
Seriously I'd like to see it finished as it has a great potential that could be realized with the right company backing it. There are allegedly 35 worlds and the stargate would be a perfect place to link planets (large zones) together without a loss of immersion, much like starports were in SWG.
I just hope it doesn't go the way of previous stargate games (SGA).
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I'm still not convinced it's the real supremeaaron posting myself, due to recent logical perspectives and a lack of blind faith. I want to know who you are and what you've done with him!
Seriously I'd like to see it finished as it has a great potential that could be realized with the right company backing it. There are allegedly 35 worlds and the stargate would be a perfect place to link planets (large zones) together without a loss of immersion, much like starports were in SWG.
I just hope it doesn't go the way of previous stargate games (SGA).
yes its the still the same supremeaaron
There wont be 35 worlds at launch I really doubt that I think CME want atleast a min of 20 worlds and we know of what atleast 5. I am continuing my craazy like support of SGW but I just aint happy about what people like Gary Whiting has done. I really hope it doesnt go the way of stargate sg1 the alliance because then I would have made my SGW fan site for no reason 
ps My eyes have always being open to what mmoguls and GW have done, I have just had time to think it over :P
I was thinking about CME, SGW, and MMOGULS while I was making dinner. I'd like to see if anyone else agrees with my musings.
We all know that building a game is expensive, and a AAA title based on a "big franchise IP" like SG even more so. And anyone who knows the industry knows that projects are always underfunded, over budget, and late to delivery. And this is exacerbated when you are a start-up with no existing product to fund the development, just venture capital.
So, it behooves any company to get the most money, and spend it judiciously. But, look at what CME did. It formed FireSky, a publishing arm, and also three other studios, that were all developing other games. Joe Ybarra talked about one, or maybe two others in an interview at Gamasutra.
Come again? You know that you are in a situation where cash management will be critical to success, and you go and start 4 separate entities, burning precious VC capital before you have any revenue? You start a publishing arm ahead of time? OK, in the long run, that might make you money, but remember, you're on borrowed time here. Using an existing publisher at the end is almost like adding a nice fat VC investor up front.
These seem like bonehead moves, especially in retrospect where CME is in danger of folding. But these guys were not some newbies. They have, if I recall, a lot of experience. So why?
It is my hypothesis that this is all, completely, because of MMOGULS. It is not simply some embarrassing hamfisted late attempt by GW to fund CME and/or bilk a little more money out of people, and one that just contributed to the tarnish of CME. I submit for your consideration that MMOGULS was the central strategy upon which CME rested, maybe if not from the start, for quite a while.
Why? Think about it. Say you just have CME, and you finish SGW. So now you go to a traditional publisher, and say, "we'd like you to handle the distribution. Oh, by the way, we are operating it under an MLM." Any "large name" publisher is likely to run away. I'm sorry for all you MLM supporters out there (if you are out there...) but MLM is just viewed with a sizable amount of suspicion. Thus, CME formed their own publisher to handle it.
Next, MMOGULS couldn't launch with just a single game, even if it was a wildly successful SGW. The entire premise of iSNAP demanded a suite of games. So, sure, you could probably get a few flash games and the like, but you really want some "A" games to go with it, right? So, who can you approach? Oh yeah, there's that MLM stigma again.... So, if you can't license them, you've got to build them yourself, and thus, you form 3 other studios...
Note how all these companies were in the process of forming from the beginning of 2008 (for Firesky), and I think the other development studios were started even earlier, but I'm not sure. Thus, to me it seems like the entire business structure of CME was developed FOR MMOGULS, and not the other way around.
So, does this make sense? Do you agree, or disagree?
I see three reasons to disagree:
#1 Free Realms
#2 DCUO
#3 The Agency
Looks to me like SOE is a little busy at the moment--maybe too busy to come running onto a sinking ship with empty buckets to save the day the way it did with Vanguard. From all I see on the official SGW forums, I tend to believe some form of the game might actually make it out the gate. It might be a complete piece of crap, but it will get done. The over-worked, under-paid developers will be able to move on to the next opportunity and put this nightmare behind them.
Geeked for FFXIV
Freelance FFXIV guide author for Ten Ton Hammer.com
Zhiroc, your theory sounds very plausable to me. I'd agree since they've had this isnap thing planned all the way along, it seems they created other studios and planned to bring it all together at the end of 2008. But it seems that team Whiting have grossly misjudged what it takes to make a game in both time and money. Hence the current situation we have now.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
The theory of MMOGULS and it all coming together might have actually worked, if the different divisions in the company actually communicated with each other.
ALL of Production and the devs knew there was no way in hell the game would be done in 2008. They had missed milestone after milestone (having no recourse or incentive to hit these marks didn’t help either).
The right hand didn’t tell the left hand, ”hey we missed some big marks….so maybe we should hold off on hiring a publishing arm for another 6 months” Nope, with blinders on, they pushed forward as if was business as usual .
Unfortunately, the funding was on a much stricter schedule. If SGW was near gold in December, MMOGULS would have succeeded, everyone at CME would be working on the next expansion and Gary would stay out of jail. It’s a swing and a miss for that team!
Having sat back and watched alot of the drama unfold I have had several thoughts cross my mind.
Taking into considerations the allegations floating around about CME, MMOGULS, MONDELIS (a break away splinterwith nothing to do with CME), FIRESKY, and the other dev houses.
The main connection with all these is the people running them, that we know of.
Personally I am still unsure of the whole DIRECT link between MMOGULS and CME, apart from the guys at the top, we can see that MMOGULS have now stated they are not in a business partnership with CME, which only leaves 'people' as the link between these two entities. (I wouldnt trust any information on CME site or on the Firesky site atm).
Now dont go all flame on me, but my thoughts on the whole MMOGULS thing was that it was more than likely a system that would have been brought in at a much later date, no exclusivity but as one route to market. My thoughts on this were that money could have been running out with some bad management decisions being made about expanding portfolio's and the company without an initial product. This was done due with the overly hyped numbers that would flock to MMOGULS. If they had the number they were claiming, the guys at the top would have had huge cash benefits from running the company which they have every right to put into other investments. (not money from the mmoguls company, but actual cash they earned from running it, e.g. commisions).
My thoughts on this is that MMOLGULS was pushed through to generate personal income to the people that had high positions at MMOGULS and also have already invested in CME, this extra revenue (there earnings from MMOGULS) would have then been used to invest more money into CME.
Now as things started to go down hill, some people decided to throw the SGW title into the MMOGULS pot, before anything had been agreed on, people assumed (or were led to assume) everything was a done deal, when it wasnt, again this is my thoughts on the matter and maybe completely wrong. When the general cominuty heard of this there was an uproar with people saying it HAD happened, not that its GOING to happen possibly. Then MMGULS saw the community for what it really is, not a bunch of people looking to make money, but wanting to play a game, and the whole MLM negativity side of it hit the fan spreading it far and wide, and literally ripped mmoguls apart at the seams.
The main problem here in my opinion were that comments were made as fact, lets speculate, say the CME crowd that are at MMOGULS said that they would get exclusive distribution, or would swing it that way, cos they are on the board, nothing has been agreed, or even mentioned at CME, and they start using these comments as fact, instead of deals yet to be decided on.
By the time the MMOGULS gets the solid deal even before its agreed upon, the bad press has already hit and things fall apart, MGM steps in, and everything is going to pot, purely on the basis of what was speculation, which mmoguls starts stating is fact.
MMOGULS breaks apart at the seems and MONDELIS is born, with the concept and vertually identical system, but without making bold statments of deals that are in the works as done deals, without certain senior management at CME or MMOGULS, its as if they know the idea is a good one, but dont want all the baggage that certain individuals have given both CME and MMOGULS. (personally I still think its a bad idea, trying to sell a comunity a service that they dont really want).
Overall my opinion is that the guys running MMOGULS and very much linked into investors at CME, would have used the cash they made from MMOGULS and filtered it back into CME, but the problem with that is that someone at the top suddenly started to use the cash for something else (if this is true I dont know, were the cash went I dont know).
The whole thing smells bad, and the guys left with most of this crap are the workers at CME, the investors in MMOGULS that were misled and it wouldnt suprise me at all if the only people that lose out are the guys that are actually doing all the work, and the top management walk away without so much as a hiccup in there cash flow.
As to the statement about investors waiting there time now, I would agree, its to much to bail out a company now, and possibly keep the same senior management at top, no one is gonna invest in that, but there will definately be a scramble for the peices when if/it falls, and someone could pick up a pretty sweet deal, a MMORPG thats well into dev with a great IP, and they could pick it up for peanuts.
final thoughts, someone tried to make a lot money out of product that wasnt available, instead of waiting for the product to be finished before trying to make another revenue stream from it.
I'd say that the problem was that SGW didn't launch when expected. Gary Whiting owns both MMOGULs, CME, Itzyourmall and the license for SGW. It seems the plan was to launch SGW and MMOGULs simultaneously late last year before Christmass but only MMOGULs did. MMOGULs would sell SGW through Itzyourmall, but SGW didn't launch and now that MGM is sorting out this problem since CME can't launch SGW this year.
CME staff have been given MMOGULs memberships, if that isn't a connection I don't know what is!
Since CME and MMOGULs are symbiotes if one dies then so does the other, CME fell sick last year and is now in a coma. MMOGULs is slowly falling apart and breaking apart, also when the same guy owns all the companies involved in this dirt deal you don't need contracts. He just went through his company Itzyourmall to add a deniability clause when MGM started asking questions. Also he has been quoted at MMOGULs meetings encouraging people to form commands in game and recruit people into the pyramid scheme.
Someone else has to finish SGW now, as CME no longer has the cash or the personnel to do so.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
I dont think that senior management would want to lose SGW at all, and they are trying the best to actually hold onto it as hard as possible. Problem here is they pay other things, do not know whether to belive that other been paid site at all, personally I think its someone just messing with CME.
Anyways I bet the top guys will do as much as possible to hold onto CME and if that goes mmoguls will basically have nothing. If mmoguls goes, it just hits the pockets of the investors, not CME directly, but indirectly.
My guess is they wont be getting any more rev from mmoguls now. so to them its just a dead wieght.
What I have seen of Stargate makes me very excited but that Black Goose name of Gary Whiting keeps poping up all the time. I tried to gather some information about CME & Gary Whiting & the link to Mmoguls kept poping up. So I go to there sight, Mmoguls, and find out Gary Whiting is ruining yet another good company & idea. What does in know about MLM's or business in general. I give him kudos for bringing together investors & developers for Stargate but that's were it all stops! I found out that all the management of Mmoguls, who understand MLM business, resigned within 6 weeks of the company starting. I can understand one resignation but the whole staff? Seems like G Whiting is smarter than everyone else or again thinks he might be King or Prophet, seeing knowing all! There is a simple solution to all the problems of Whiting's enterprises, CME, CMG, Stargate, & Mmoguls, get Whiting out of the business side & let the professionals run the companies before your reputation and lack of business savy destroy everything!! Gary Whiting is the major stock holder of Mmoguls & don't let anyone fool you especially Whiting. BEWARE OF INVESTING ONE DOLLAR WITH GARY WHITING AT THE HELM!!!
While Gary definately own a chunk of blame, eliminating him will not solve the problems CME has. keep in mind, CME only has the money it has because of Gary's ability to raise the funds ($50 million!) in the first place. He did it with a team of talent of course and each has their right claim a portion of that raised, but GW brought them all together in the first place. The man can raise money that's for sure.
Eliminating him will still leave a management team that has proven incompentant at managing the ability to get a game launched. The CEO (Jenson) was bonused on studio creation, not game completion. So what did CME do? Open lots of studios, hire lots of people, over a third of which were paid to work on things other than SGW.
Then you have the SGW team itself. They were given $25 million of the $50 million to build an MMO. They were given 3 GOOD years (before stuff started to fall apart) and they failed. Their "beta' release was an alpha. They consistently lied and glossed over public announcements. Most of their milestones were missed (and glossed over). They never proved their technology could do more than lag out with a medium number of connections (rumor has it about 800 max on the server during the tail end of beta, that was after weeks of only 100 or 200). Sure, if they had another 2 years and funds, I'm positive they could get "something" out the door.
But they don't have that time or that money. The whole time while building the game they kept pushing back release dates, missing milestones, mismanaging design. They put a good show on for the public but behind the scenes there was no accountability and often things operated as if the money would never stop coming. To be fair, they were often told that they could have whatever they needed. But failure to deliver on schedule in the Production team and immediate leaderships fault. Failure to hold them accountable is the CEO's fault. I'm sure there were many great successes, there were just larger looming failures. There is no other answer. After $50 million in spend, the company CME failed to deliver a title. After $25 million in spend, the SGW team failed to make even a successful beta. These are facts, not opinions and they are signs of failure.
No one here has any comprehension of what the internal politics were like (unless someone here was on those leadership teams and isn't saying). We won't know the real nitty gritty details until CME caves and some of those folks choose to talk. Someone always does, look at every other major MMO failure, someone always spills the beans, usually at least two people. We'll see what happens when CME eventually closes its doors.