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Penny Arcade comic : Homosexuality in Star Wars: The Old Republic
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Homophobic? Lol. That's another stupid term I've heard thrown around.
Then there is the ugly heterosexual men that is not only ugly, but also stupid. They just dont realise what kind of advantage the existance of homosexuals brings with it
Homophobic? Lol. That's another stupid term I've heard thrown around.
Then there is the ugly heterosexual men that is not only ugly, but also stupid. They just dont realise what kind of advantage the existance of homosexuals brings with it
not that i agree or disagree with any of this, but i would just like to point out that homosexuality applies to both sexes.
Like it stated in the post above yours, which you obiously didn't read. We are tired of hetero themes being forced on us in games and they ARE contantly in our face. If you don't want homosexual themes, then it goes to say there shouldn't be any heterosexual either. Bioware is famous for having romance themes in their games and it would really be nice if they accepted and catered to others along with those of the hetero persuasion. One out of ten people are gay or bisexual. That is a large percentage of the population and we deserve to be treated with respect and if a game is going to shove heterosexual themes down our throats, then they should include gay ones too.
That is absolutely ridiculous. First, I'd like to see any backing to support that statistic. Secondly, do you know why heterosexual themes are displayed in video games? Because it is normal, and it is natural.
I, personally, don't want to see any man on man action in any of my video games, sorry.
/fail .. nice way to show the world how much of a bigot you are XD
Everyone is a bigot in some form or way. I don't throw around acceptance to things that I think are wrong just because "that's who they are". I find homosexuality, from a scientific and moral view, to be wrong, so I don't show a lot of tolerance for it. Just as people don't tolerate murderers because "Oh that's just who they are". Does that make me a bigot? Sure, I guess so on this subject. I'm not, nor do I go out of my way, to be mean or insult homosexuals, but I don't support it, and I'll argue against it when that agenda is pushed on me. You show you are a bigot by not accepting my bigotry. We're even.
I gotta ask: What "scientific" view causes you to find homosexuality to be wrong? And since we're being 'scientific' please define what you mean by 'wrong'. Cause I'm not sure you mean what you think you mean. If I were to hazard a guess I would think that you are using some vague understanding of what you think are scientific principles to justify your moral objection.
And when you say "agenda is pushed on me" are you referring to merely publicly acknowledging they exist and deserve equal respect?
Well scientifically speaking, what is the point of sexuality? It is primarily for reproduction. Yes, other human needs are met with it, but it's primary function is reproduction. For a species, when an individual is homosexual, they do not reproduce. This lack of reproduction means that their gene's are not passed on. Individuals who's genes are not passed on are generally considered failures of the species, much the same way natural selection works. If the primary function of sexuality is reproduction and an individual is using it in a way that cannot ever meet that goal, I see that as wrong, scientifically.
As for the agenda, well trying to push homosexual content into games seems like an agenda to me. I know the original post from Eikle wasn't pushing this, but others in the thread were.
You do know that "scientifically" there are other reasons for sexuality than reproduction. Two of these valid scientific reasons are dominance and pleasure.
First, you need to seperate the human animal from the larger animal population.
"Scientifically", beast in the wild frequently use same sex relations as a form of dominance. A male dog, as an easy example, will screw another male dog in order to show his dominance. And before you say this does not apply to humans scientifically, check your local prison yard.
"Scientifically", the human animal also differs greatly sexually from most other animal species in one regard. Humans have sex for enjoyment, not solely for procreation.
Wow this blew up pretty big. I heard the forum issue was resolved, but as for homosexuality in MMOs, it's up to the dev. If anyone has played ANY of the recent Bioware games (jade empire, mass effect er.. KOTOR!) romance is a pretty major plot of the character development. These RPGs were meant to lead to an almost sandbox style game in the form of the amount of flexibility one can have with his/her character. If Bioware limited this MMO to being straight only (given that there is some sort of romance subplot or romantic interaction with other playing characters) it simply wouldn't be a Bioware.
Also, this is a new development studio, but the KOTOR franchise I'm sure will live up to its name. So my guess is, like it or not the option to be homosexual will exist. It's just an option. If you don't like, don't play. Games are becoming a popular mode of expression and in turn an art form. Art is limitless, so should be our outlook on this genre.
Which FF Character Are You?
Like it stated in the post above yours, which you obiously didn't read. We are tired of hetero themes being forced on us in games and they ARE contantly in our face. If you don't want homosexual themes, then it goes to say there shouldn't be any heterosexual either. Bioware is famous for having romance themes in their games and it would really be nice if they accepted and catered to others along with those of the hetero persuasion. One out of ten people are gay or bisexual. That is a large percentage of the population and we deserve to be treated with respect and if a game is going to shove heterosexual themes down our throats, then they should include gay ones too.
That is absolutely ridiculous. First, I'd like to see any backing to support that statistic. Secondly, do you know why heterosexual themes are displayed in video games? Because it is normal, and it is natural.
I, personally, don't want to see any man on man action in any of my video games, sorry.
/fail .. nice way to show the world how much of a bigot you are XD
Everyone is a bigot in some form or way. I don't throw around acceptance to things that I think are wrong just because "that's who they are". I find homosexuality, from a scientific and moral view, to be wrong, so I don't show a lot of tolerance for it. Just as people don't tolerate murderers because "Oh that's just who they are". Does that make me a bigot? Sure, I guess so on this subject. I'm not, nor do I go out of my way, to be mean or insult homosexuals, but I don't support it, and I'll argue against it when that agenda is pushed on me. You show you are a bigot by not accepting my bigotry. We're even.
I gotta ask: What "scientific" view causes you to find homosexuality to be wrong? And since we're being 'scientific' please define what you mean by 'wrong'. Cause I'm not sure you mean what you think you mean. If I were to hazard a guess I would think that you are using some vague understanding of what you think are scientific principles to justify your moral objection.
And when you say "agenda is pushed on me" are you referring to merely publicly acknowledging they exist and deserve equal respect?
Well scientifically speaking, what is the point of sexuality? It is primarily for reproduction. Yes, other human needs are met with it, but it's primary function is reproduction. For a species, when an individual is homosexual, they do not reproduce. This lack of reproduction means that their gene's are not passed on. Individuals who's genes are not passed on are generally considered failures of the species, much the same way natural selection works. If the primary function of sexuality is reproduction and an individual is using it in a way that cannot ever meet that goal, I see that as wrong, scientifically.
As for the agenda, well trying to push homosexual content into games seems like an agenda to me. I know the original post from Eikle wasn't pushing this, but others in the thread were.
You do know that "scientifically" there are other reasons for sexuality than reproduction. Two of these valid scientific reasons are dominance and pleasure.
First, you need to seperate the human animal from the larger animal population.
"Scientifically", beast in the wild frequently use same sex relations as a form of dominance. A male dog, as an easy example, will screw another male dog in order to show his dominance. And before you say this does not apply to humans scientifically, check your local prison yard.
"Scientifically", the human animal also differs greatly sexually from most other animal species in one regard. Humans have sex for enjoyment, not solely for procreation.
aye. in ancient greece, many males had sexual intercourse with one another. it is believed amongst historians that Alexander was "gay", or bi-sexual at best, same with Aquiles and what not. There are reasons for this: for one it was encouraged by the military, because they belived this would strengthen the bond and thus loyalty of the soldiers with one another. Then of course the long campains and camps in the wilderness with no females within miles also encouraged this behaviour.
Romans baths were full of homosexual behaviour before Christianity, and many pegans engaged in homosexual practices as well.
In more recent times, sailors during the age of Sail had same-sex intercourse due to the long travels and time at sea.
In any case, "gay" began to have its negative view amongst society when Rome accepted Christianity as its religion, and the Christian church banned all gay practices. This was the time when Emperor Constantine ruled in the early 4th century.
It took humanity 17 centuries to accept homosexualty again in the western world; coincidently, the power of the church is in an all-time low since its foundation, and, ironically, it has arguably been the shift in humanty from "religion" to "science" that has accepted them back.
most likely because now people view gays as people who have a distinct or unique gene or dna much like people have blue eyes or dark hair instead of the arcaic view of gays being posessed by the devil or being punished by God for herecy, etc, etc.
I'm reasonably up-to-date on international law on this topic and in very few modern, developed societies is homosexuality a criminal activity (i.e. wrong). Legal inequalities persist, but in the vast majority of modern, developed societies, these inequalities are being rectified.
What evidence do you rely on to support your claim?
Ah, but I am not talking about the existence of laws or government intervention. I'm talking about ethical absolutes, which are established by the norm of society itself, not some institution that claims to represent it. All it takes to understand normative ethics is a mere glance at the majority's moral opinion in the United States. Once you realize that a criminal activity is not always "wrong," you will understand what I am saying.
I'm reasonably up-to-date on international law on this topic and in very few modern, developed societies is homosexuality a criminal activity (i.e. wrong). Legal inequalities persist, but in the vast majority of modern, developed societies, these inequalities are being rectified.
What evidence do you rely on to support your claim?
Ah, but I am not talking about the existence of laws or government intervention. I'm talking about ethical absolutes, which are established by the norm of society itself, not some institution that claims to represent it. All it takes to understand normative ethics is a mere glance at the majority's moral opinion in the United States. Once you realize that a criminal activity is not always "wrong," you will understand what I am saying.
Ethical absolutes? Isn't that an oxymoron, like Millitary Intelligence, Open Secret, Pretty Ugly, Tragic Comedy, Rolling Stop, or the most famous of ones, Microsoft Works?
Homosexuality is subective to normative standards of the society in which it resides in, hence subject to the views of people, and the accepted ethics of it's time. Hence there is NOTHING, absolute about ... "Ethical Absolutes" as you put it.
Gays are fine as long they dont prance around me and bust out into song or some shit. If u act like a male ill treat u as one but u wanna act like a female/male iam going to have nothing to do with you.
What iam trying to say is blame fairy gays for people hating gays they root all your problems, that and religous people they will never change there view sorry.
I know not all do it, I was simply using that as a point of when someone is trying to push their sexuality as an identity. I was merely pointing out that the ones that do emphasis those features and behaviors are putting on an act that isn't natural, and not generalizing that all homosexuals do that. I apologize if it came off any differently.
Isn't that the point of an identity. It's personal and relative only to that person. So what if one guy identifies with his feminine side and another does not. There are straight men who are effeminate and there are gay men who are masculine. There are lesbians who are butch and some who are not and the same goes for straight women.
No one is pushing their agenda just by expressing themsleves with their mannerisms. Jocks slap each other on the ass and cosntantly grab their crotches. This is a mannerism, not Natural behavior as you would put it. It's on exactly the same level as guys who lisp or walk around with limp wrists.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Is this a joke?
...
I know not all do it, I was simply using that as a point of when someone is trying to push their sexuality as an identity. I was merely pointing out that the ones that do emphasis those features and behaviors are putting on an act that isn't natural, and not generalizing that all homosexuals do that. I apologize if it came off any differently.
Isn't that the point of an identity. It's personal and relative only to that person. So what if one guy identifies with his feminine side and another does not. There are straight men who are effeminate and there are gay men who are masculine. There are lesbians who are butch and some who are not and the same goes for straight women.
No one is pushing their agenda just by expressing themsleves with their mannerisms. Jocks slap each other on the ass and cosntantly grab their crotches. This is a mannerism, not Natural behavior as you would put it. It's on exactly the same level as guys who lisp or walk around with limp wrists.
I agree with you Vrazule.
...
Yeeaahhhh.......
That's why player mods had to be added to make same sex flirtations possible in KotOR and the rest. Limiting to "accepted" forms of sexuality is very much Bioware. makes me wonder if YOU have played any recent Bioware rpgs.
I know not all do it, I was simply using that as a point of when someone is trying to push their sexuality as an identity. I was merely pointing out that the ones that do emphasis those features and behaviors are putting on an act that isn't natural, and not generalizing that all homosexuals do that. I apologize if it came off any differently.
Isn't that the point of an identity. It's personal and relative only to that person. So what if one guy identifies with his feminine side and another does not. There are straight men who are effeminate and there are gay men who are masculine. There are lesbians who are butch and some who are not and the same goes for straight women.
No one is pushing their agenda just by expressing themsleves with their mannerisms. Jocks slap each other on the ass and cosntantly grab their crotches. This is a mannerism, not Natural behavior as you would put it. It's on exactly the same level as guys who lisp or walk around with limp wrists.
There is nothing feminine about a lisp, or limp wrists. How many females, without a speech impediment talk with a lisp? How many walk around with limp wrists? None. Even if they are "identifying with their feminine side", some homosexuals behavior isn't even feminine, it's just acting odd to show everyone they are gay.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Who gives a s*#t, let people play with their light sabers how they want and get over it. There's enough things a computer character can't do that people don't care about. Be who you want to be and remember that it's a friggin game.
I know not all do it, I was simply using that as a point of when someone is trying to push their sexuality as an identity. I was merely pointing out that the ones that do emphasis those features and behaviors are putting on an act that isn't natural, and not generalizing that all homosexuals do that. I apologize if it came off any differently.
Isn't that the point of an identity. It's personal and relative only to that person. So what if one guy identifies with his feminine side and another does not. There are straight men who are effeminate and there are gay men who are masculine. There are lesbians who are butch and some who are not and the same goes for straight women.
No one is pushing their agenda just by expressing themsleves with their mannerisms. Jocks slap each other on the ass and cosntantly grab their crotches. This is a mannerism, not Natural behavior as you would put it. It's on exactly the same level as guys who lisp or walk around with limp wrists.
There is nothing feminine about a lisp, or limp wrists. How many females, without a speech impediment talk with a lisp? How many walk around with limp wrists? None. Even if they are "identifying with their feminine side", some homosexuals behavior isn't even feminine, it's just acting odd to show everyone they are gay.
We only call it a lisp because it's men who sound feminine and I've yet to come across a gay man who sounds like they have a speech impediment. The limp wrist is common to many female gestures, including the way they put their hands on their hips when standing at rest. This is all learned behavior dude. I think you're getting instict mixed up with masculinity. Masculine traits are not instictual or natural, they are learned habits. The way you carry yourself, the way you walk, the way you talk, body laguage, gestures and so forth are all learned behaviors, whether you are straight or gay.
Why do you think it's so important in your straight culture for men to make sure their sons are not sissies and that they behave like men, they have to instill it in their progeny, same goes for women and their daughters. Men who have feminine tendencies therefore use women as their role models, same as women who have masculine tendencies use men as their role models.
As far as any "odd" behavior, it's not you place to question it as it is none of your frakking business.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I'm going to try and stay out of this thread. The few posts I read got me angry enough that I would most likely get banned if I responded to them.
Anywho, Elkial. I just wanted to say that I absolutely agree with everything you had to say in your post and I wish the homosexual community the best of luck in the future in regards to acceptance in main-stream culture. Being able to get married in a few states is a small step in the right direction.
I'm straight but I have never understood the unfounded prosecution of the gay community, or anyone, for that matter.
Good luck!
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Honestly, after reading most of this thread (and occasionally poking fun at it), i'm pretty sure we all lost.
No! No.
Senadina is right!
For a day or two, the dirt throwing and aggression of some clouded my own judgement too. But she is right. What was the goal? Was our goal to convince the entire world of tolerance? No. That never was the goal, and that is something unattainable. And unnecessary. Our goal was to be allowed to debate OOC topics without censoring. And we attained what we wanted.
It is a victory, and one to be truly happy for. It is a victory not for gay and lesbian people, no, it is victory of reason over irrationality, a victory of freedom over bigotry, and a victory of the culture of debate over those who wanted to silence us from even talking about this.
There were those who did not want us to talk about this. There were those who want us to cower in fear and stay in the dark. And they have lost. We are without anger, calm but also without fear.
We have won, because bringing the topic to public is a victory, because it keeps the topic out of the "shady, dark places where they want to keep it". They have lost and let me say they are bad losers. No avail to throw dirt at us will be them trying to spoil our victory. The world where every person is free to be who he is in every private matter is the future. The others are just a vocal minority. The future belong to us who believe in a tolerant, respectful and diverse society, not to them.
And this is the last thing I shall say here about this. The matter is close and solved. May some few yell and cry and shout at us as they want.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Real world issues have no place in computer games, and minority groups have no place trying to force game developers to adjust the business/development models to cater to their out of game lifestyles. If Lucas Arts/Bioware decide that SW:TOR is set in a 'heterosexua'l universe, then everyone has the choice to either peruse an interest in the game....or not. They are creating a medium for us to experience the Star Wars universe, and if people don't like that representation of it, then they are free to find another game that is more suitable. It is really pretty simple.
Trying to force an ideology of equal treatment for all, from a group that is representative of what would make up a small percentage of the population, is not going to win you any battles. You may pick up some sympathetic votes along the way, but in the long run, all your actions are going to produce is an atmosphere of division amongst the community as a whole. Which is sort of counterproductive.
Yeeaahhhh.......
That's why player mods had to be added to make same sex flirtations possible in KotOR and the rest. Limiting to "accepted" forms of sexuality is very much Bioware. makes me wonder if YOU have played any recent Bioware rpgs.
Get an xbox and go play Jade Empire. Even more recent go play Mass Effect. It may not have been there in KOTOR but it was definitely there in Jade Empire AND Mass Effect, both of which came out after KoTOR, so yes BioWare is moving to the less "accepted" forms of sexuality. Don't start troll posts before doing your research and reading correctly the post above you.
Which FF Character Are You?
I know not all do it, I was simply using that as a point of when someone is trying to push their sexuality as an identity. I was merely pointing out that the ones that do emphasis those features and behaviors are putting on an act that isn't natural, and not generalizing that all homosexuals do that. I apologize if it came off any differently.
Isn't that the point of an identity. It's personal and relative only to that person. So what if one guy identifies with his feminine side and another does not. There are straight men who are effeminate and there are gay men who are masculine. There are lesbians who are butch and some who are not and the same goes for straight women.
No one is pushing their agenda just by expressing themsleves with their mannerisms. Jocks slap each other on the ass and cosntantly grab their crotches. This is a mannerism, not Natural behavior as you would put it. It's on exactly the same level as guys who lisp or walk around with limp wrists.
There is nothing feminine about a lisp, or limp wrists. How many females, without a speech impediment talk with a lisp? How many walk around with limp wrists? None. Even if they are "identifying with their feminine side", some homosexuals behavior isn't even feminine, it's just acting odd to show everyone they are gay.
We only call it a lisp because it's men who sound feminine and I've yet to come across a gay man who sounds like they have a speech impediment. The limp wrist is common to many female gestures, including the way they put their hands on their hips when standing at rest. This is all learned behavior dude. I think you're getting instict mixed up with masculinity. Masculine traits are not instictual or natural, they are learned habits. The way you carry yourself, the way you walk, the way you talk, body laguage, gestures and so forth are all learned behaviors, whether you are straight or gay.
Why do you think it's so important in your straight culture for men to make sure their sons are not sissies and that they behave like men, they have to instill it in their progeny, same goes for women and their daughters. Men who have feminine tendencies therefore use women as their role models, same as women who have masculine tendencies use men as their role models.
As far as any "odd" behavior, it's not you place to question it as it is none of your frakking business.
No, a lisp is a speech impedimant where a person is unable to prenounce "s" and similar sounds, and replaces them with something else. There is nothing feminine about it.
As for me calling it odd... I can make any observation I want, and I deem guys prancing around faking speech impedimants odd. Deal with it.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Locked: Off Topic, Trolling.