So, all in all I guess Arc's OP is still pretty accurate if there is no reasonable rebuttle? Anyone?
I read the original post. I don't think there is a rebuttal to be made. Evidently, the people who made this a reality have an attention span as long (possibly longer in my case) than the players who left the game.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
So, all in all I guess Arc's OP is still pretty accurate if there is no reasonable rebuttle? Anyone?
That was answered 3 pages ago. Of course people who argue that the NGE was this great and wonderful thing and SWG is doing better than ever are delusional idiots. I didn't think that topic was ever really up for debate.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
You have to read the entire post of Rubenfeld somewhere. It is enlightning. Back then, when NGE came, I made myself unbelievably unpopular by saying, it was not the NGE alone that suddenly destroyed a formerly well running game. Rubenfeld now himself admitted, SWG was constantly losing customers. 10k per month. When WOW came out... people just left. Sooner or later they would have left anyway, because as fun as sandbox is, after 2 years the air was out. It was as simple as that. People had hunter everywhere, and the gameplay experience started to feel... rancid. Like old cheese.
SWG HAD to change. People changed, and most wanted a MMO which gave than stuff to do, something epic, quests, stories and not merely a huge sandbox alone. It just wasnt enough anymore. Sure, NGE made it worse. But the idea the NGE ruined a perfect game is a myth and now the truth is finally out and proven.
I waited 3 years, but now I can say "I told you so".
But this Rubenfeld still didnt get the idea. He he way to self-righteous for someone who failed to epic. SWG was a failed an incomplete MMO from day one. There were many good gamers who had good suggestions, but SOE just never listened. They never do. ><
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You have to read the entire post of Rubenfeld somewhere. It is enlightning. Back then, when NGE came, I made myself unbelievably unpopular by saying, it was not the NGE alone that suddenly destroyed a formerly well running game. Rubenfeld now himself admitted, SWG was constantly losing customers. 10k per month. When WOW came out... people just left. Sooner or later they would have left anyway, because as fun as sandbox is, after 2 years the air was out. It was as simple as that. People had hunter everywhere, and the gameplay experience started to feel... rancid. Like old cheese. SWG HAD to change. People changed, and most wanted a MMO which gave than stuff to do, something epic, quests, stories and not merely a huge sandbox alone. It just wasnt enough anymore. Sure, NGE made it worse. But the idea the NGE ruined a perfect game is a myth and now the truth is finally out and proven. I waited 3 years, but now I can say "I told you so". But this Rubenfeld still didnt get the idea. He he way to self-righteous for someone who failed to epic. SWG was a failed an incomplete MMO from day one. There were many good gamers who had good suggestions, but SOE just never listened. They never do. ><
What drove people out of SWG in the old days? The bleeding of subs that gets brought up?
+ Totally apathetic, lethargic pace of fixing bugs and gameplay issues / imbalances by the devs. This covers a very wide spectrum of problems. A very major issue as it irritated alot of players with so many major problems not being fixed.
+ Space was not there to begin with when SWG was released in Summer '03. SWG was repeatedly hammered for this by reviewers. How can you have a Star Wars MMO and make no attempt at implementing a space game? JTL came out eventually, but it took a while to get out there. Almost a year, I think, after SWG went live.
+ Repeated disregard for Star Wars canon. Believe it or not, some of us wanted some sort of semblence to the Star Wars world in a Star Wars MMO. Batallions of Jedi running around in the days of the Empire didn't lend itself well to that.
+ Speaking of Jedi, they became the focus of development by the devs, who seemed to forget there were many other professions, alot of which have never received a "revamp." All while the Jedi got publish after publish dedicated to them. Publish 9 onwards spiraled into this cycle.
+ Empty promises of various professions getting a much needed revamp in the Pre-CU days. Players were led on for a while until more people started realizing they were being duped by holding on to hollow promises and false hope. The famed "Combat Rebalance" we all thought was a massive revamp / fixing of the professions... and we of course assumed that the original system (Pre-CU) would remain in place. But instead, we got the...
+ ...infamous "Combat Upgrade"... the first of 2 massive revamps to hit the fan for SWG. I recall a noticeable hit in population over at Ahazi when the CU came out. And Ahazi was one of the larger servers in SWG during the Pre-CU days. Massive changes and the obvious monkey-mimicking of WoW. The first phases of simplification were noticeable. The introduction and increased use of powerful quest reward / loot equipment were made.
All this before the MIRV warheads of the NGE hit us all. And once the NGE hit, it obliterated anything decent that was left, namely the still lively and tight knit community.
Also, I agree that SWG had to change. But it did NOT need to change in the degree of the NGE or even the CU.
What SWG needed were the following: Space, more content for players to use, profession revamps, and most of all, fix the d**n bugs!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I agree with all of that warmaker. And I think what needed to be done was pretty much all laid out for them in the form of "Top Issues" posts that the correspondents compiled. Most of the things listed were very relevant and it was what the players actually complained about.
Continuing this incessant circular discussion of the NGE is waging a war on reality. Everyone keeps talking about it as if some smoking gun is going to appear so everyone can ... what? Have closure? FINALLY get on with their lives? It's not hard to figure out. SOE had a game that wasn't doing what it should have been (largely due to SOE's shortcomings), and they did the NGE, they fucked everything up, and it blew up in their faces. We knew that four years ago. The continued discussion of the who-what-where-when-whys of the situation is just beating that deceased Clydesdale, which by now is an unrecognizable pulp. Find something else to talk about.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
Want a new conversation? Then start one. Not Arc's or anyone elses fault that people like discussing this. No one has to post in it. If no one ever replied then there would be no reason to make another thread. Like how it is in the forum upstairs:) Im gonna take a wild guess and say people will discuss whatever the hell they want to. Either partake, or don't. What you dislike is irrelevent. Make some points, challange the arguement, change their minds. And Never tell people what you think of them..some advice. You could be such a cool dude if you didnt go so far out of your way to be mean.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Comments
I read the original post. I don't think there is a rebuttal to be made. Evidently, the people who made this a reality have an attention span as long (possibly longer in my case) than the players who left the game.
Played (more than a month): SWG, Second Life, Tabula Rasa, Lineage 2, Everquest 2, EvE, MxO, Ryzom.
Tried: WoW, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, Everquest, WWII Online, Planetside
Beta: Lotro, Tabula Rasa, WAR.
That was answered 3 pages ago. Of course people who argue that the NGE was this great and wonderful thing and SWG is doing better than ever are delusional idiots. I didn't think that topic was ever really up for debate.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
You have to read the entire post of Rubenfeld somewhere. It is enlightning. Back then, when NGE came, I made myself unbelievably unpopular by saying, it was not the NGE alone that suddenly destroyed a formerly well running game. Rubenfeld now himself admitted, SWG was constantly losing customers. 10k per month. When WOW came out... people just left. Sooner or later they would have left anyway, because as fun as sandbox is, after 2 years the air was out. It was as simple as that. People had hunter everywhere, and the gameplay experience started to feel... rancid. Like old cheese.
SWG HAD to change. People changed, and most wanted a MMO which gave than stuff to do, something epic, quests, stories and not merely a huge sandbox alone. It just wasnt enough anymore. Sure, NGE made it worse. But the idea the NGE ruined a perfect game is a myth and now the truth is finally out and proven.
I waited 3 years, but now I can say "I told you so".
But this Rubenfeld still didnt get the idea. He he way to self-righteous for someone who failed to epic. SWG was a failed an incomplete MMO from day one. There were many good gamers who had good suggestions, but SOE just never listened. They never do. ><
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What drove people out of SWG in the old days? The bleeding of subs that gets brought up?
+ Totally apathetic, lethargic pace of fixing bugs and gameplay issues / imbalances by the devs. This covers a very wide spectrum of problems. A very major issue as it irritated alot of players with so many major problems not being fixed.
+ Space was not there to begin with when SWG was released in Summer '03. SWG was repeatedly hammered for this by reviewers. How can you have a Star Wars MMO and make no attempt at implementing a space game? JTL came out eventually, but it took a while to get out there. Almost a year, I think, after SWG went live.
+ Repeated disregard for Star Wars canon. Believe it or not, some of us wanted some sort of semblence to the Star Wars world in a Star Wars MMO. Batallions of Jedi running around in the days of the Empire didn't lend itself well to that.
+ Speaking of Jedi, they became the focus of development by the devs, who seemed to forget there were many other professions, alot of which have never received a "revamp." All while the Jedi got publish after publish dedicated to them. Publish 9 onwards spiraled into this cycle.
+ Empty promises of various professions getting a much needed revamp in the Pre-CU days. Players were led on for a while until more people started realizing they were being duped by holding on to hollow promises and false hope. The famed "Combat Rebalance" we all thought was a massive revamp / fixing of the professions... and we of course assumed that the original system (Pre-CU) would remain in place. But instead, we got the...
+ ...infamous "Combat Upgrade"... the first of 2 massive revamps to hit the fan for SWG. I recall a noticeable hit in population over at Ahazi when the CU came out. And Ahazi was one of the larger servers in SWG during the Pre-CU days. Massive changes and the obvious monkey-mimicking of WoW. The first phases of simplification were noticeable. The introduction and increased use of powerful quest reward / loot equipment were made.
All this before the MIRV warheads of the NGE hit us all. And once the NGE hit, it obliterated anything decent that was left, namely the still lively and tight knit community.
Also, I agree that SWG had to change. But it did NOT need to change in the degree of the NGE or even the CU.
What SWG needed were the following: Space, more content for players to use, profession revamps, and most of all, fix the d**n bugs!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I agree with all of that warmaker. And I think what needed to be done was pretty much all laid out for them in the form of "Top Issues" posts that the correspondents compiled. Most of the things listed were very relevant and it was what the players actually complained about.
good post arc.
Respectfully, how is it that you belittle others about discussing this yet in the same post you critisize the NGE just the same? Why is it bad for others yet OK when you do it?
IMO the conversations this topic has generated in these 4 years has made me a more informed consumer with respect to all MMO's. If people had followed the "get over it" advice some try to insist on others then some valuble information and thought provoking concepts would likely never resulted.
I for one like to read ArcAngel's posts for this very reason., and I hope that those who try to stop this type of dialogue are indeed the "vocal minority".
I "belittle others for discussing this" because IT'S THE SAME CONVERSATION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
NOTHING new comes out of any of these discussions. You could copy + paste half the posts in this thread into any of hundreds of others and nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Ever see the movie "Groundhog Day"? The vet refuge is the internet version of "Groundhog Day."
Want a new conversation? Then start one. Not Arc's or anyone elses fault that people like discussing this. No one has to post in it. If no one ever replied then there would be no reason to make another thread. Like how it is in the forum upstairs:) Im gonna take a wild guess and say people will discuss whatever the hell they want to. Either partake, or don't. What you dislike is irrelevent. Make some points, challange the arguement, change their minds. And Never tell people what you think of them..some advice. You could be such a cool dude if you didnt go so far out of your way to be mean.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.