I think you're not understanding what I mean here. I'm not calling anyone a Bioware fanboy and I'm just as excited about SW:TOR coming out as you are. I keep an eye out for new feature and timeline announcements as much as anybody.
I simply wish that "every" thread that gets started about the game didn't turn into a running love story about how great a history Bioware has had by the middle of page 2. We know Bioware is successful, we know they have a lot of talent hired. Nobody is putting Bioware down here.
I simply wish we could get back to talking about the game and not the company constantly. As far as the link, it's called humor. Relax a bit.
There were just as many rabid fans of Blizzard before WoW launched, now they are all playing WoW. I'm sure BioWare has just as big a fanbase. Just because not all of us like every game BioWare has ever made, doesn't mean fans who do don't exist. I would expect this title to bring more and more of them out of the woodwork.
Although it could happpen, I just can't see this game failing. I mean it is Bioware not so some joe blow mmo company who wakes up one day and thinks they can makes mmos. There will be no doubt the game will have its issues but for the most part it is going to epically pwn the majority of other mmos out there today.
Yup, I think you are right.
I think BioWare will bring a new and fresh feel to the genre...as well as changing things up a bit.
It's funny that there is still a handful of SWG vets kicking and screaming on these forums when there is still little information on this game to base their criticisms on. Most of them like me have moved past the bitterness over that crappy game SWG and settled their issues we had with SOE and care less about SWG pre-cu. We just want a new SW MMO to start over in.
Why are they pissy? Because BioWare didn't use certain keywords they wanted to hear in the interviews? (which would have scared off the majority of other MMO players BTW) Does it mean they won’t have elements veterans enjoy? Certainly not. They aren’t making the game just for the 200 people still angry at SOE still wanting pre-cu, and yeah it is like 200 since the rest of us are fine with what we see of TOR so far. But I assume they may take the elements that worked, and do it better for TOR.
I seem to remember in a certain article early on that they admitted to looking at all MMOs, including the elder game of SWG for inspiration, but wanted to add this 4th pillar, story. That doesn’t say WoW clone to me that says the game has something to do besides making 1 billion cakes to get to the next level of chef, or flooring surfing in the cantina looking under the skirts of the dancers, or beating up thug spawns behind the Mos Eisley cantina afk while you watch whatever is on TV. Or running Bol lairs for 10 hours on Dant.
No where along the way have they said this would be a WoW clone.
No where along the way have they said a linear story was your only option in this game (choose your own adventure paths/do whatever you want yet it still has an effect on your story and character development).
No where have they said there is no exploration (look at the poll on their site, explorations wins amongst the polled).
No where have they said the game is all instances (they mentioned some aspects of MMOs and story telling you need instances, but they wanted wide open areas through-out their game, like…OMG, an MMO).
At no point did they say Jedi rules all classes (not sure about you guys, but I think each of the 2 classes so far look way more awesome to play then Jedi could ever be)
Either these nerds are just hootin and hollering to get attention, or they just plain don't like MMOs at all and are just here to troll. Eitherway believe it or not BioWare does not owe elder players anything. That said I doubt they have forgotten about the vets since part of the reason this game was allowed to be made was due in part to the failure of the game made by SOE. If you didn’t catch the mini shout-outs to vets since the first announcement then I’m sorry, reread it all, every word of it. Hell a few players from SWG are working at BioWare and talk about the old days of SWG on the TOR forums to this day. In the past a few have even mentioned that SWG was one of their favorite games. One even used to make some of the more well known SWG videos you’ve most likely seen. Most of the posters on the TOR forums have played SWG, most want what you whiners want, but instead of whining about it they talk like big people about what they want.
What do the vets want? An exact copy of SWG? There is always the emu, as for making another SWG, Raph Koster said he would never remake that game. So there you have it xD Raph Koster would never make another SWG, and he hasn’t.
In conclusion now it seems each game will have its fanbase, since the current players of SWG seem to love their game, the rest of us will have TOR. The people on the fence are either full of it and will be playing from day one, or they just like being miserable. Will we still hold BioWare to high standards for this game? Fuck yeah, but let’s just wait till the game launches to scream bloody murder or talk about how much we think it sucks.
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I am not bashing you are anything, I am just trying to figure out why people bother even reading this crap if they have no interest in the game ? Is it boredom or do you really wish this game was for you and just need to vent.
Like I said I am not bashing you or anything *not trying to be rude* but I am just curious. It seems that most of the posts are done by people who have no interest in playing the game, but all the interest in the world to bash it and scream that they don't want to play the game (not that you are doing this). I just don't see the point. I hate WOW, but I have never once posted a comment on a wow thread saying that I will never play this game... after commiting time to the forum chat. *granted I have said things about the game on other game's forums, but still* I am just at a loss as to why so many people are here that say they don't want to be....
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol. @ andmiller What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
I am also a SWG vet. I played from beta to about 2 hours after I logged into NGE. I absolutely love that game. No question my favorite mmo of all time and I started in 1996 with Meridian 59. I doubt there will ever be another pre-nge SWG. The difference is I did not turn my back on SOE. It took a couple weeks but I got over nge, and continued playing EQ2. I am glad I did, I would have prefered the last 4+ years been in SWG but I have loved my time in EQ2 the second best mmo for me. I saw SOE's move on SWG as just a really stupid business decision. I did not take in personnally as some obviously have from the years of people posting nge rants.
The title of the thread is meant to say a few things. Mainly that people are judging it on how close it will capture our lost love SWG. It won't capture that SWG feel but when I see the videos and hear the developers I get excited about the game. It may capture SW better then SWG or any previous SW game, we will have to wait and see. I have just stopped caring if it will be another SWG or if there ever will be another SWG. As a Star Wars fan starving for a SW mmo I could not have picked a better deveolper then Bioware. KOTOR is one of the greatest rpgs ever and one of the best SW games ever. I am not so obsessed Bioware fan, google something like: "best PC rpg game list" and KOTOR will show up in the top 10 on most every list or forum discussion. Some people will not like the game but it will not be because it is a fastfood game for the masses. It will be because it is not what they hoped it would be. I am going to play it for what it "is" and I think it "is" going to be great.
PS- Khalathwyr I predict this: you will buy and play Star Wars: The Old Repiblic. You may not love it but I guarantee you will buy and play it. Remember my prediction when you swip your card at the point of purchase. Also to make it clear I am not saying your response is a nge rant, like I menation in my first paragraph.
I am not bashing you are anything, I am just trying to figure out why people bother even reading this crap if they have no interest in the game ? Is it boredom or do you really wish this game was for you and just need to vent.
Like I said I am not bashing you or anything *not trying to be rude* but I am just curious. It seems that most of the posts are done by people who have no interest in playing the game, but all the interest in the world to bash it and scream that they don't want to play the game (not that you are doing this). I just don't see the point. I hate WOW, but I have never once posted a comment on a wow thread saying that I will never play this game... after commiting time to the forum chat. *granted I have said things about the game on other game's forums, but still* I am just at a loss as to why so many people are here that say they don't want to be....
Sorry, Just a question.
And I'll give you my answer. I can't speak for others, obviously.
It's Star Wars. That is the reason I keep checking back to see if any new information is released about gameplay which might sway me into trying it out. So far, nothing. Granted, after the initial interviews the only real things they've announced are the possibility for MT and some fluff type background on a few classes. I understand that may be exciting for some but I've been playing MMOs since day 1 UO. I've just gotten to the point where I need more information about what there is to "do" in an MMO than "Hey look, we're going to have this shiny class! It'll be awesome!". You know, the Paul Barnett treatment (Hey, they went and hung out with him a EA Mythic so I can make the connection).
That, and there's the off chance that a dev might be a member of this site and reading this forum. I'm sure the devs know not everyone thinks their ideas as released so far are as "awesome" as some make them out to be. If they take a glance over here they can see some reasons as to why some people aren't interested in their game. Course, it is at time very hard to write constructive criticism on this site (and near impossible on the official site) without getting bombarded by "You're just a disgruntled SWG vet", "You just want SWG2.0", "Why are you even here, you hate Bioware", "Blah blah blah Uncle Owen blah blah". You know, your typical moronic, uneducated, blind rage responses on a perceived attack on something they "love".
Which is why, since we're talking posting, I don't post much on this forum anymore. Feel free to check my history. I only do so once in a while, typically when people try to portray anyone that isn't happy with SOE due to SWG(NGE) as some seething, fuming, slobbering rabid beast when in truth many of us, while we'll never touch anything SOE again and probably would laugh a little inside if they folded, we aren't logging onto the internet everyday or week plotting their demise or generating a 6 page essay on why they are the devil (sorry devil).
And I try to keep up on all the information released on the "top-billed" MMOs in production as I am the "point-man" for my group of MMO gaming friends. I have to have answers to their questions as while they like to play 20+ hours a week, they don't like hanging out on MMO forums.
Hope that answers your question.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol. @ andmiller What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
I am also a SWG vet. I played from beta to about 2 hours after I logged into NGE. I absolutely love that game. No question my favorite mmo of all time and I started in 1996 with Meridian 59. I doubt there will ever be another pre-nge SWG. The difference is I did not turn my back on SOE. It took a couple weeks but I got over nge, and continued playing EQ2. I am glad I did, I would have prefered the last 4+ years been in SWG but I have loved my time in EQ2 the second best mmo for me. I saw SOE's move on SWG as just a really stupid business decision. I did not take in personnally as some obviously have from the years of people posting nge rants.
The title of the thread is meant to say a few things. Mainly that people are judging it on how close it will capture our lost love SWG. It won't capture that SWG feel but when I see the videos and hear the developers I get excited about the game. It may capture SW better then SWG or any previous SW game, we will have to wait and see. I have just stopped caring if it will be another SWG or if there ever will be another SWG. As a Star Wars fan starving for a SW mmo I could not have picked a better deveolper then Bioware. KOTOR is one of the greatest rpgs ever and one of the best SW games ever. I am not so obsessed Bioware fan, google something like: "best PC rpg game list" and KOTOR will show up in the top 10 on most every list or forum discussion. Some people will not like the game but it will not be because it is a fastfood game for the masses. It will be because it is not what they hoped it would be. I am going to play it for what it "is" and I think it "is" going to be great.
PS- Khalathwyr I predict this: you will buy and play Star Wars: The Old Repiblic. You may not love it but I guarantee you will buy and play it. Remember my prediction when you swip your card at the point of purchase. Also to make it clear I am not saying your response is a nge rant, like I menation in my first paragraph.
Eccoton, granted, you don't know me very well (ok, really, at all), I'll give you that. If you did, you'd not have made that last comment in your PS, lol. If their aren't announced changes in systems that I want to hear, and that'll I'll not define here on this forum...again..., then I won't ever touch this title. Sorry, but I'm just not as fickle as you hope I am. If that were the case I would have continued playing SWG post NGE up until now.
Don't play the lottery this week. I guarantee you that if it continues down this route, the only Bioware game I'll be playing is Dragon Age.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
What does it matter how sandboxers feel, Bioware isn't trying to appeal to fanatical SWG vets or sandboxers in general. They and we are getting tired of telling you guys that they're making a game, not a simulation. Something that is fun and entertaining, not a second job. Something that is light hearted and easy to get into, not tedious with way too much usless detail.
We understand your argument, we just don't agree with it, nor does Bioware. Give it a rest already. There is absolutely no point in vomiting up this bile every frigging post. You need to move on to a game you do like or would like instead of ranting about this one. Your posts are neither constructive nor informational. Your points have been made over and over, make them to a developer that is still at the concept stage, where it might actually be useful if they're at all interested in catering to your play style.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't want either a sandbox nor a theme park but a mix of both.
Something like no levels, no closed classes, skill progression based, a good crafting system with random resources, nice quests you can pick-up or totally avoid.
I'd love a mix of Dark Force I and Tie-Fighter (no jedi players and skill based FPS and space sim)
The closest BioWare has ever come to trying sandbox gameplay (and it's not that close, just using it for illustrative purposes) was the side quest planets in Mass Effect. Sandbox just isn't something that is in the philosophical/psychological makeup of the BioWare team. Even when they had semi-large empty areas, there were still just a set of specific goals to accomplish, and the entire experience ended up just feeling like a waste of time compared to the tighter experiences in space or on main quest planets, where you weren't allowed to roam around randomly. So at this point it looks like BioWare knows how to construct two types of area, tight areas where everything has a purpose and role in the story, and open areas where most of the places you can go are completely pointless.
I'm not a fan of pointless wandering, so I hope they stick with what they are good at. If you want well done sandbox, look for a different developer.
As for the SWG vets' "vision of Star Wars," the problem is that the "vision" of the ones who are angry about a lack of sandbox gameplay is a vision that doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. For them, Galaxies is Star Wars. Not the movies, not KotOR, just Galaxies. And most of us, even most of those who played and enjoyed early SWG, realize that the only things the slightest bit Star Wars-y about it were some of the music and some of the visuals, not the gameplay, not the player cities, not most of the "classes" you could cobble together from the various skills. To be fair to SOE, while the NGE is crappy as a game, from a *flavor* perspective it really is more Star Wars than original SWG was, Star Wars has always been about iconic, archetypical characters.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
This may be a great game or it may be horrible. It's too early to tell.
The problem is everyone is so obsessed with Bioware that just mentioning them seems to turn everyones brain off about the game being developed and completely focused on the Infinite wisdom of the company making it. I agree they've done great work in the past but why don't we let them actually complete their first MMORPG before nominating the organization for Sainthood. Current reaction of Bioware obsessed fans.
The point about their stellar history is that there is no reasonable reason to believe they would fail in producing a good game. Blizzard had the exact same history, good games, little to no MMO experience and yet they still produced a very good game, with some flaws, but still very good.
They have proven time and again to be a very solid and in my opinion, the best gaming company out there. They know how to spin a story and keep the player involved. I have absolutely no reason to believe they can't do the same in a MMO that's based on their forte, STORY TELLING.
Like any other company, Bioware is in the business of making money, but unlike many of the rest, they know that making a GREAT game, nets them more money in the long term than many of the flash in the pan companies like SOE.
All this aside, I like their direction for this game and it's exactly this that has me so darn excitied. It's a change from the tired old MMO paradigms that have been done to death.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.
So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well? But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
What is the point of your comment about "world creation/population?" What does that have to do with whether or not a game feels like Star Wars? I loved early SWG, and I still wouldn't say it "got Star Wars right," because Star Wars has always been about Epic Adventure and archetypical characters. It was the wrong IP for a freeform skill based game, especially when you consider that most of the skills had little or no rooting in the Star Wars mythos. Creature handlers, while fun for many, just weren't Star Wars. Also, the Star Wars universe obviously has entertainers, medics, "image designers," but it has never been about them, they are just background. Fluff, if you will, there to add flavor, but lacking in any real substance.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a sandbox game. There is nothing wrong with wanting a skill-based game. There is a lot wrong with having creature handlers instead of droid masters and calling it Star Wars. There is a lot wrong with the barren desert planet of Tattooine being covered in random urban sprawl and mining rigs, because it wasn't. If you want a game that lets you build and define your own world, don't use a world that already has a pre-defined history and structure to do it. Could a sandbox game compatible with Star Wars be made? Sure, it's possible. SWG wasn't it.
As for the argument that if they do both a story-driven questing game and a sandbox game they can make more money, that is probably true. It is also true that it would *cost* substantially more to make, and likely take several extra years of development. I sincerely doubt there are more players willing to wait 2-3 extra years for a bunch of sandbox play than there are players who want to get into the game as soon as what is planned is finished.
Also, and this is just a suspicion I have, I really doubt BioWare would be any good at creating a sandbox game. Sandbox games are the polar opposite of what BioWare is known for doing, and doing well, and would require a substantially different skill set, as well as a substantially different mindset.
As for the part of your signature that talks about how sandbox games are more like building out of legos, "themepark" games are more like putting together a puzzle, and you like legos, here is something to think about: A completed puzzle can often be, except for the faint lines where the pieces come together, a beautiful and moving piece of art. Stuff built out of legos on the other hand is all blocky, full of sharp edges, and generally looks like crap.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.
So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?
Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.
Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.
So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I see far too many people saying it will probably not fail. Unless, your term of failure is very loose, if the game sells over a million and loses 50% or more, I consider that a failure. Now is 500k a healthy goal, yes, but losing 500k is also an outcome of that. Wait, be patient, and don't assume it will be awesome because it's by BioWare.
Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure. So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?
Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.
Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.
So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.
Pretty hasty assumptions. I dismissed nothing before 2003. I enjoy many of the aspects, without them, MMOs today would probably be far different, for better or worse that's anybody's guess. Really I didn't feel SWG gave a SW feel, that's my opinion though, and it differs from person to person. Plenty of things are worth taking a look at from older MMOs, but considering the large amount of nonsense thats been brough forth, examples, no jedi in ToR, A server with no jedi, sandbox this, sandbox that, jedi jedi jedi. It's getting a bit old. I just don't see many of the vets having credible contributions that make any sense. But please if you can think of a few realistic additions to making the game much happier experience, then please share.
I see far too many people saying it will probably not fail. Unless, your term of failure is very loose, if the game sells over a million and loses 50% or more, I consider that a failure. Now is 500k a healthy goal, yes, but losing 500k is also an outcome of that. Wait, be patient, and don't assume it will be awesome because it's by BioWare.
Glad you do, some of us don't. Most of us are just happy to have a game to fall into. Give me 500k people to play with and i'll be more then ecstatic about it.
Why are they pissy? Because BioWare didn't use certain keywords they wanted to hear in the interviews? (which would have scared off the majority of other MMO players BTW) Does it mean they won’t have elements veterans enjoy? Certainly not. They aren’t making the game just for the 200 people still angry at SOE still wanting pre-cu, and yeah it is like 200 since the rest of us are fine with what we see of TOR so far. But I assume they may take the elements that worked, and do it better for TOR.
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And guess what, I'm one of the OG haters from SWG who helped make the ultimate SOE hate site (or so SOE thought), except now I just don't give a shit about SWG or the emu, very few of us do actually anymore.
Time to move on. It's been many years and the NGE has run longer than any other version of the game.
And no, more than 200 people just flat don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.
And no, more than 200 people just flat don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
And no, more than 200 people just flat don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
To make my point, most of us just don't care. Though we may feel some of the SOE devs are morons still, me and the players I know of are completely neutral over SOE, we neither love, nor hate them. We just don't give a shit.
Comments
There were just as many rabid fans of Blizzard before WoW launched, now they are all playing WoW. I'm sure BioWare has just as big a fanbase. Just because not all of us like every game BioWare has ever made, doesn't mean fans who do don't exist. I would expect this title to bring more and more of them out of the woodwork.
Yup, I think you are right.
It's not even a MMO since it's not massively but have fun in your online themepark.
And as far as I'm considered.... I'm out!
Then why the heck do you hang around on this forum ???? You are commenting about this game and bashing it on every darn thread... just leave!
You can't reason with the remaining vets still crying about it, they think any company to make another SW mmo owes them the world. Hell if they cant enjoy SWG why should we enjoy ToR? They will speculate the worst, because thats what they want.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I am not bashing you are anything, I am just trying to figure out why people bother even reading this crap if they have no interest in the game ? Is it boredom or do you really wish this game was for you and just need to vent.
Like I said I am not bashing you or anything *not trying to be rude* but I am just curious. It seems that most of the posts are done by people who have no interest in playing the game, but all the interest in the world to bash it and scream that they don't want to play the game (not that you are doing this). I just don't see the point. I hate WOW, but I have never once posted a comment on a wow thread saying that I will never play this game... after commiting time to the forum chat. *granted I have said things about the game on other game's forums, but still* I am just at a loss as to why so many people are here that say they don't want to be....
Sorry, Just a question.
I am also a SWG vet. I played from beta to about 2 hours after I logged into NGE. I absolutely love that game. No question my favorite mmo of all time and I started in 1996 with Meridian 59. I doubt there will ever be another pre-nge SWG. The difference is I did not turn my back on SOE. It took a couple weeks but I got over nge, and continued playing EQ2. I am glad I did, I would have prefered the last 4+ years been in SWG but I have loved my time in EQ2 the second best mmo for me. I saw SOE's move on SWG as just a really stupid business decision. I did not take in personnally as some obviously have from the years of people posting nge rants.
The title of the thread is meant to say a few things. Mainly that people are judging it on how close it will capture our lost love SWG. It won't capture that SWG feel but when I see the videos and hear the developers I get excited about the game. It may capture SW better then SWG or any previous SW game, we will have to wait and see. I have just stopped caring if it will be another SWG or if there ever will be another SWG. As a Star Wars fan starving for a SW mmo I could not have picked a better deveolper then Bioware. KOTOR is one of the greatest rpgs ever and one of the best SW games ever. I am not so obsessed Bioware fan, google something like: "best PC rpg game list" and KOTOR will show up in the top 10 on most every list or forum discussion. Some people will not like the game but it will not be because it is a fastfood game for the masses. It will be because it is not what they hoped it would be. I am going to play it for what it "is" and I think it "is" going to be great.
PS- Khalathwyr I predict this: you will buy and play Star Wars: The Old Repiblic. You may not love it but I guarantee you will buy and play it. Remember my prediction when you swip your card at the point of purchase. Also to make it clear I am not saying your response is a nge rant, like I menation in my first paragraph.
I'm with you OP.
And I'll give you my answer. I can't speak for others, obviously.
It's Star Wars. That is the reason I keep checking back to see if any new information is released about gameplay which might sway me into trying it out. So far, nothing. Granted, after the initial interviews the only real things they've announced are the possibility for MT and some fluff type background on a few classes. I understand that may be exciting for some but I've been playing MMOs since day 1 UO. I've just gotten to the point where I need more information about what there is to "do" in an MMO than "Hey look, we're going to have this shiny class! It'll be awesome!". You know, the Paul Barnett treatment (Hey, they went and hung out with him a EA Mythic so I can make the connection).
That, and there's the off chance that a dev might be a member of this site and reading this forum. I'm sure the devs know not everyone thinks their ideas as released so far are as "awesome" as some make them out to be. If they take a glance over here they can see some reasons as to why some people aren't interested in their game. Course, it is at time very hard to write constructive criticism on this site (and near impossible on the official site) without getting bombarded by "You're just a disgruntled SWG vet", "You just want SWG2.0", "Why are you even here, you hate Bioware", "Blah blah blah Uncle Owen blah blah". You know, your typical moronic, uneducated, blind rage responses on a perceived attack on something they "love".
Which is why, since we're talking posting, I don't post much on this forum anymore. Feel free to check my history. I only do so once in a while, typically when people try to portray anyone that isn't happy with SOE due to SWG(NGE) as some seething, fuming, slobbering rabid beast when in truth many of us, while we'll never touch anything SOE again and probably would laugh a little inside if they folded, we aren't logging onto the internet everyday or week plotting their demise or generating a 6 page essay on why they are the devil (sorry devil).
And I try to keep up on all the information released on the "top-billed" MMOs in production as I am the "point-man" for my group of MMO gaming friends. I have to have answers to their questions as while they like to play 20+ hours a week, they don't like hanging out on MMO forums.
Hope that answers your question.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I am also a SWG vet. I played from beta to about 2 hours after I logged into NGE. I absolutely love that game. No question my favorite mmo of all time and I started in 1996 with Meridian 59. I doubt there will ever be another pre-nge SWG. The difference is I did not turn my back on SOE. It took a couple weeks but I got over nge, and continued playing EQ2. I am glad I did, I would have prefered the last 4+ years been in SWG but I have loved my time in EQ2 the second best mmo for me. I saw SOE's move on SWG as just a really stupid business decision. I did not take in personnally as some obviously have from the years of people posting nge rants.
The title of the thread is meant to say a few things. Mainly that people are judging it on how close it will capture our lost love SWG. It won't capture that SWG feel but when I see the videos and hear the developers I get excited about the game. It may capture SW better then SWG or any previous SW game, we will have to wait and see. I have just stopped caring if it will be another SWG or if there ever will be another SWG. As a Star Wars fan starving for a SW mmo I could not have picked a better deveolper then Bioware. KOTOR is one of the greatest rpgs ever and one of the best SW games ever. I am not so obsessed Bioware fan, google something like: "best PC rpg game list" and KOTOR will show up in the top 10 on most every list or forum discussion. Some people will not like the game but it will not be because it is a fastfood game for the masses. It will be because it is not what they hoped it would be. I am going to play it for what it "is" and I think it "is" going to be great.
PS- Khalathwyr I predict this: you will buy and play Star Wars: The Old Repiblic. You may not love it but I guarantee you will buy and play it. Remember my prediction when you swip your card at the point of purchase. Also to make it clear I am not saying your response is a nge rant, like I menation in my first paragraph.
Eccoton, granted, you don't know me very well (ok, really, at all), I'll give you that. If you did, you'd not have made that last comment in your PS, lol. If their aren't announced changes in systems that I want to hear, and that'll I'll not define here on this forum...again..., then I won't ever touch this title. Sorry, but I'm just not as fickle as you hope I am. If that were the case I would have continued playing SWG post NGE up until now.
Don't play the lottery this week. I guarantee you that if it continues down this route, the only Bioware game I'll be playing is Dragon Age.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
MMO with emphasis on story driven class specific quests! I'm in!
Author of the Amazon kindle book, The Clan and the Crown
What does it matter how sandboxers feel, Bioware isn't trying to appeal to fanatical SWG vets or sandboxers in general. They and we are getting tired of telling you guys that they're making a game, not a simulation. Something that is fun and entertaining, not a second job. Something that is light hearted and easy to get into, not tedious with way too much usless detail.
We understand your argument, we just don't agree with it, nor does Bioware. Give it a rest already. There is absolutely no point in vomiting up this bile every frigging post. You need to move on to a game you do like or would like instead of ranting about this one. Your posts are neither constructive nor informational. Your points have been made over and over, make them to a developer that is still at the concept stage, where it might actually be useful if they're at all interested in catering to your play style.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't want either a sandbox nor a theme park but a mix of both.
Something like no levels, no closed classes, skill progression based, a good crafting system with random resources, nice quests you can pick-up or totally avoid.
I'd love a mix of Dark Force I and Tie-Fighter (no jedi players and skill based FPS and space sim)
Too bad only 1-3% of the players want that.
The closest BioWare has ever come to trying sandbox gameplay (and it's not that close, just using it for illustrative purposes) was the side quest planets in Mass Effect. Sandbox just isn't something that is in the philosophical/psychological makeup of the BioWare team. Even when they had semi-large empty areas, there were still just a set of specific goals to accomplish, and the entire experience ended up just feeling like a waste of time compared to the tighter experiences in space or on main quest planets, where you weren't allowed to roam around randomly. So at this point it looks like BioWare knows how to construct two types of area, tight areas where everything has a purpose and role in the story, and open areas where most of the places you can go are completely pointless.
I'm not a fan of pointless wandering, so I hope they stick with what they are good at. If you want well done sandbox, look for a different developer.
As for the SWG vets' "vision of Star Wars," the problem is that the "vision" of the ones who are angry about a lack of sandbox gameplay is a vision that doesn't have anything to do with Star Wars. For them, Galaxies is Star Wars. Not the movies, not KotOR, just Galaxies. And most of us, even most of those who played and enjoyed early SWG, realize that the only things the slightest bit Star Wars-y about it were some of the music and some of the visuals, not the gameplay, not the player cities, not most of the "classes" you could cobble together from the various skills. To be fair to SOE, while the NGE is crappy as a game, from a *flavor* perspective it really is more Star Wars than original SWG was, Star Wars has always been about iconic, archetypical characters.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
The point about their stellar history is that there is no reasonable reason to believe they would fail in producing a good game. Blizzard had the exact same history, good games, little to no MMO experience and yet they still produced a very good game, with some flaws, but still very good.
They have proven time and again to be a very solid and in my opinion, the best gaming company out there. They know how to spin a story and keep the player involved. I have absolutely no reason to believe they can't do the same in a MMO that's based on their forte, STORY TELLING.
Like any other company, Bioware is in the business of making money, but unlike many of the rest, they know that making a GREAT game, nets them more money in the long term than many of the flash in the pan companies like SOE.
All this aside, I like their direction for this game and it's exactly this that has me so darn excitied. It's a change from the tired old MMO paradigms that have been done to death.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.
So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?
What is the point of your comment about "world creation/population?" What does that have to do with whether or not a game feels like Star Wars? I loved early SWG, and I still wouldn't say it "got Star Wars right," because Star Wars has always been about Epic Adventure and archetypical characters. It was the wrong IP for a freeform skill based game, especially when you consider that most of the skills had little or no rooting in the Star Wars mythos. Creature handlers, while fun for many, just weren't Star Wars. Also, the Star Wars universe obviously has entertainers, medics, "image designers," but it has never been about them, they are just background. Fluff, if you will, there to add flavor, but lacking in any real substance.
There is nothing wrong with wanting a sandbox game. There is nothing wrong with wanting a skill-based game. There is a lot wrong with having creature handlers instead of droid masters and calling it Star Wars. There is a lot wrong with the barren desert planet of Tattooine being covered in random urban sprawl and mining rigs, because it wasn't. If you want a game that lets you build and define your own world, don't use a world that already has a pre-defined history and structure to do it. Could a sandbox game compatible with Star Wars be made? Sure, it's possible. SWG wasn't it.
As for the argument that if they do both a story-driven questing game and a sandbox game they can make more money, that is probably true. It is also true that it would *cost* substantially more to make, and likely take several extra years of development. I sincerely doubt there are more players willing to wait 2-3 extra years for a bunch of sandbox play than there are players who want to get into the game as soon as what is planned is finished.
Also, and this is just a suspicion I have, I really doubt BioWare would be any good at creating a sandbox game. Sandbox games are the polar opposite of what BioWare is known for doing, and doing well, and would require a substantially different skill set, as well as a substantially different mindset.
As for the part of your signature that talks about how sandbox games are more like building out of legos, "themepark" games are more like putting together a puzzle, and you like legos, here is something to think about: A completed puzzle can often be, except for the faint lines where the pieces come together, a beautiful and moving piece of art. Stuff built out of legos on the other hand is all blocky, full of sharp edges, and generally looks like crap.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I think you two generalize too much and are very, very wrong. I'm not sure if you would call me a SW vet (Ibeta tested and played up until a week before NGE), and while I'm not happy about what happened (NGE) and have no desire to look at any SOE made or backed game moving forward, I don't rave about bringing SWG back. I have no desire as it is to play TOR from what has been released (interviews and such) about it as it just doesn't capture the scope that SW is to me. Now, I'm not dooming and glooming the game. I'm sure people will buy it and play. Not me. I won't be miserable. I'll just be waiting on Star Trek, lol.
@ andmiller
What MMO isn't niche? WoW is the only one (note I'm not a WoW fan). Using the word "niche" is a "duh, really" in the world of MMOs.
Yeah, I would pretty much consider you a vet, I'm one myself, started playing about 2 months after release and a few months after NGE before I quit, I still go back every now and then to see what turns its taken, or to speak with old friends.
The remaining vets that still cry over a game being changed do have an agenda. I hardly see Vets come here and contribute something not totally out of the question. I would say if you don't like the direction this game is going, find another game or go back to SWG and learn to deal with the NGE. Now I'm not saying you are raving about SWG, actually I was not even talking about you till you jumped in. Unless you consider yourself a vet that stil cries about the NGE,but I dont think thats the case.
You guys do come here often to say this game does not capture your image of Star Wars, what is it exactly you do not like?
The "other half" of the equation, based on the interviews from the developers and their short histories of bodies of work. Whether many people like it or not, MMOs got their start by a few people thinking it would be cool to put table-top games into video/computer game format. The first and some second generation MMOs did that to a large extent. They tried to tell a story as well as let players create their own. Asheron's Call is a shining example of this. Then, somewhere around 2003, the design focus just shifted away from including those aspects. There was no attempt to further refine them despite many people loving them. There has only been 100% attempts in the other direction (A Tale in the Desert).
Personally, from playing various SW games and playing all variations of the Star Wars pencil and paper games, I've gotten to a place where the fulfilling part for me is outside of the scale of "Iconicness". Yes, there are plent y of people who embrace it because that's as far as their imagination wants to take them. Mine has caused me to embrace the entire SW universe, not just the roles of a few people with dillusions of grandeur.
And I'd like a game that offers both. People who say SWG wasn't "SW" don't know the first thing about world creation/population. Sorry, they don't. They know what's fun for them in the pew-pew follow the quest yay! I'm a hero sense, which is fine. But world creation is that and much more. Some will say "You just want a "sim"". I say, why can't a sim have pew-pew quests as well?
But yeah, that's another part of why I keep tabs on TOR. Who know, an anvil might fall from the sky, hit Vogel and Walton on the head and they realize that if they marry the sim aspects with the pew-pew quest ones, they grab a ton more people and make a ton more money. It can be done. Both aspects of it have already been done and are in live games now. The onus is just on some comapny to put the two together. I'd hope Bioware would be the one to do that. Maybe Blizzard will with their unnamed project. If so, then I'll become one of the biggest Blizzard fans on the planet.
Thanks for the story. Rather to deep for a movie or game, but sure.
So when is it time to pack up camp and come to the assumption that MMOs probably won't revert back to mmo design pre-2003?
Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.
Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.
So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I see far too many people saying it will probably not fail. Unless, your term of failure is very loose, if the game sells over a million and loses 50% or more, I consider that a failure. Now is 500k a healthy goal, yes, but losing 500k is also an outcome of that. Wait, be patient, and don't assume it will be awesome because it's by BioWare.
Yeah, see, I didn't say revert, but I can tell from your comment where this is going and I've been there a few times and don't care to do it again. There's no point in trying to talk MMO design with people that dismiss anything before 2003 and believe that nothing good was available back then that is worth taking a look at, giving merit to, and seeing that in the interest of diversity of gameplay some of those ideas can be brought into modern day MMO game design.
Anyway, that's all I got for this thread. Don't take it as an offence if I don't reply but I truly have other things to do than listen to the "that's old, man, come into the future" arguments, lol. I'm in the future (trippy)...I mean, the present, and looking around, and the MMOs being released...they not so great. Maybe they should start looking to the past for some ideas.
So, peace man. I hear the EvE pew-pew calling me.
Pretty hasty assumptions. I dismissed nothing before 2003. I enjoy many of the aspects, without them, MMOs today would probably be far different, for better or worse that's anybody's guess. Really I didn't feel SWG gave a SW feel, that's my opinion though, and it differs from person to person. Plenty of things are worth taking a look at from older MMOs, but considering the large amount of nonsense thats been brough forth, examples, no jedi in ToR, A server with no jedi, sandbox this, sandbox that, jedi jedi jedi. It's getting a bit old. I just don't see many of the vets having credible contributions that make any sense. But please if you can think of a few realistic additions to making the game much happier experience, then please share.
Glad you do, some of us don't. Most of us are just happy to have a game to fall into. Give me 500k people to play with and i'll be more then ecstatic about it.
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And guess what, I'm one of the OG haters from SWG who helped make the ultimate SOE hate site (or so SOE thought), except now I just don't give a shit about SWG or the emu, very few of us do actually anymore.
Time to move on. It's been many years and the NGE has run longer than any other version of the game.
And no, more than 200 people just flat don't give a shit about SOE. 4 years of anger over a game is for morons with no life.
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
To make my point, most of us just don't care. Though we may feel some of the SOE devs are morons still, me and the players I know of are completely neutral over SOE, we neither love, nor hate them. We just don't give a shit.
There's this book I think the people still angry should read it's called "Don't sweat the small stuff"