I say just price cap everything. As long as there is an economy in a game and the players have some control over it, this kind of thing will be going on. Blizzard has done nothing but make gold sellers more wanted in the game. Look at the chopper, the vendor mats are what, around 12kG or so, maybe 15, not sure. Don't get me wrong, I know how easy it is to get gold in WoW, but 12kG is a LOT. They add more and more overpriced items to the game and wonder why some peeps buy gold. Don't give me that argument about prices only being high because of gold sellers. That's crap. There are people in these games that play just to make money. When they do that, and it's a free market, prices get run up. Then you addons like auctioneer that can be an actual tool to run the market up. If Blizz capped everything at prices that were kind of hard to get but not totally out of reach for everyone, then most of this would go away. Smaller games would be different I would think, but with almost 12 million subscriptions the market will be out of hand. IMO anyway
when did all this bullshit come out about gold farmers hacking accounts?
Thats been speading for a long time. Keyloggers and such. Not to mention the fools who use power leveling services. One of the best ways to keep your account safe is to use one of Blizzards digital authenticators. The other of course is to not visit gold selling or power leveling sites.
You do know how keyloggers work right?
Yes. You do know some of their methods of application?
Buying gold in WOW is cheating. You are looking for ways to rationalize cheating. Did I miss something here? Your ramble on why cheating may be good for WOW was neither an "eye opener" nor "informative."
Yes it is, in **WOW**. I personally detest gold spammers myself, and those who get ripped off by them have only themselves to blame. That having been said, in some other games its a matter of choice. No one is forcing anyone to buy cash shop items. But they can make a big difference, depending on the game. It all depends on the games dynamics and business model. Personally, I'd rather spend some real money on something of use, than endless hours raiding. Especially given the social dynamics and random nature of such raids.
Very well said. I feel the same way on the matter.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Im sorry but your musing just re-inforce what is wrong with todays breed of gamer and what is so annoying about WOW.
You mentioned that it brings items to the front that people wouldnt normally farm, ie large brilliant shards. Allowing enchanters to level up more easily.
Firstly these enchanters are now unknowingly feeding a farming trade.
and 2ndly you mention that this means they wont have to do it themselves.
This is the crutch for me.
Do it themselves.....grrrr ie instant gain with no pain.
A large majority of todays gamer couldn't handle old skool games becuase they made you work hard for your rewards - take EQ for a shining example.
You pretty much had bust your spleen to get anywhere.
Todays gamer would quit after the first 10minutes without some phat loot dropping at their feet. They need to have a goal - half the time in the games there was no goal it was all pure luck of the draw. Todays gamer would simply refuse to do it. "I cant see any clear goal so why should i?"
Which just reinforces the point really - large brilliant shards arent selling why should i go get them? - because you want them dofus.
You say the farmers stimulate the market - players can do this, but again people have to put effort in and sadly most of players who play wow - wont unless they know theres some purple shiny reward at the end.
Thus showing that WOW is not as "open world" or "free to do what you want" - its led by schoolboy mentality - stick with the pack dont stand out and follow like sheep.
Gold farmers kill player economies and raise prices on what is an already inflated market, the market will cap out at one point and you end up with any new player immediately being deterred by a sky high ecomony that could never hope to join until they hit endgame at least.
Fair point your trying to make but it doesnt cut the mustard
Ifs its old EQ yeah its understandable that gold sellers have an appeal. Even before the influx of gold farmers, items were already selling at thousand plats each. For a newbie who want some good gear, 1k plat is unimaginable. Added to that many good gear are tradable, not even bind on equip, and all gear are equippable on a lvl 1.
Now we talk about WoW. The best gear has level limits. The lvl 80 gear is expensive, but when you make it to lvl 80, you should not have problems earning money for it. Low level blues, oh dear, why do I care about lvl 60 gear? I fly by all levels till 68, and only using quest rewards. Till I hit 60, I never bother look at xp, I ding every few hours or less. Till 68, till I hit northrend things are push over. The only real money outlays are mounts and till lvl 70, the mounts are dirt cheap.
The really expensive things are post lvl 80. The enchanting (if you want those enc using abyss crystal) and gems (if you always gem out every piece of stop gap gear with the best gem) could add up quickly. So exercise caution and sense. For stop gap blue gear from 80 heroics, use green gems, or perfect whatever green gems. Its only 19 vs 17 or so +str, I forgot. That extra +2 str is not going to gimp you, given that the blue gear itself is a gimp if you insist on comparing it to lvl 213 epics.
Work out a plan to let money in. Not really farm. Just let money in. Loot mobs, clear bags before you head out, so you can collect vendor trash. Organise loot and try not to sell anything you might need later. Mail system and bank alts are your friends. 30copper per item mailed, you can organise them well, so you need not buy anything you happen to collect on and off.
Oh come on, these are just common sense, and with common sense, I am sitting on some 50+k gold across my few alts, never having an idea what I need to buy. After an epic land and flying mount, and gemming/enchanting only lvl 200+ gear (now only 213+ gear with patch 3.2), I have no other use for money. By the way, start crafting. In the long run, it pays off. I never farm the AH, I hardly sell on AH, I only sell to friends or give gear to friends. They return the favour with other forms of help. Say they cut my gems before I got my JC gear high enough.
The good thing about WoW is multifacet. You got many aspects of gaming in one package, and by playing them all together, you feel more variety than just raiding endlessly the same naxx and thaddius or KT. Trying out all crafts also broadens my own understanding of the game, of the issues others are talking about. Heck, I dunno why ppl are so upset and insistent on doing JC dailies everyday till I hit lvl 65 and talk the the JC trainer in dalaran. That is one new aspect of the game I discovered, and one more "fun" and "distress" noted, lol.
Buying money or powerlvling to 80? You miss most of the bit and pieces that makes the whole game. Heck, I actually relevelling a priest from lvl 1 just to try out a new levelling crafting combo. So much to replan and retry, and by the time I finished lvl 80 and 2x450 crafting, I am sitting on 6k gold on another alt. There is no need to hurry and finish an alt. Play it as it feels natural.
Blizzard would fudge up if they would add a way to buy items, that wouldn't be fair at all... why buy gold when it's so easy to make it, while you're leveling become a minerherbalistenchanter idk it's easy.... AH FTW, that's why the AH is there....
My main concern with the article is that I don't find it to be sufficiently in-depth. For example, it only lists one supposed benefit. I'm sure it was well-intentioned, but probably not well-researched and thought out enough. I would expect more research and more detail from an article purporting to list the pros and cons of something. Sorry, that's just my own personal expectation.
I completely concur with this thought. The main article only addresses one tiny aspect, the convenience of crafting goods.
The real impact of the gold trade hasn't been mentioned, not even in the comments. As large amounts of gold are acquired by the purported seller and secondhand sellers, the biggest impact that will be felt will be on a games free trade mechanism, since this discussion seems tailored to WoW, that means the Auction House. With large sums at their disposal, these sellers will buy out high volume or high demand items, reprice and then relist these items. In doing this, they accomplish 2 goals:
1. They make even more gold at a much faster rate than farming.
2. They create a demand for people to want to buy gold.
Just imagine if every item placed on Auction was sold for no more than 100-200% over NPC vendor payout prices. If you are playing WoW now, you probably can't. You have become so accustomed to inflated prices that seeing items like this would shock you.
The next time you pick up an MMO that is just being released, savor the prices on the Auction House. They only last a couple months at most.
increase in pro-lazy bitch....er i mean RMT posts lately? check!
poorly researched post trying to explain any pros to RMTing? check!
accepting ads for sites like ige and such? check!....oh wait hasnt happened yet. sorry guys guess i jumped the gun there, give it some time its inevitable.
oh and for people like madaeux who thinks its not cheating that they can get stuff normal people earned...i...hmm...i think that...yknow what? the sheer amount of stupid in that argument is making it hard to think and type at the same time. ill think of something to say here later.
I love that the 400+ reply post about this subject was recently deleted (Who buys Gold in MMO's?) followed by this article. Just strangely coincidental indeed.
The issue with games like WoW is that they don't have enough regular expenses to drain gold from the economy. Everything you kill drops coin (or trash which is vendorable for it), and the more players you have killing more monsters, the more gold flows into the economy. This causes extreme inflation for a game like WoW, and those who suffer from this are the ones who meet with the 4-5 year econ which introduces mounts costing thousands of gold, or dual-spec certification (or whatever it is - I no longer play WoW) that costs what, a thousand itself? For the older players, this is a drop in the bucket, but for new it's such a daunting task that of course the temptation is there to buy gold. Solution? Increase the expenses, decrease the ease of obtaining gold. The economy should only be a portion of a game and not its ruler (shouldn't be essential for every single player). WoW's heavy-handed approach to reduce the gold in their economies doesn't solve a thing, and in fact bolsters the necessity for gold buying for some. In that sense, I can understand why some buy gold in WoW, and may not even consider it 'cheating' myself (I do NOT buy gold, and am extremely anti-RMT).
Anyway, this article is a joke. You don't need RMT to go farm Large Brilliant Shards. In BC, I actually enjoyed a nice relaxing evening now and again of stealthing through Blackrock Depths on my druid to hit every boss I could find for shards. It'd net me hundreds of gold in a couple of hours easily. There always has been, and always will be **PLAYERS** who will do these things because that aspect of the game appeals to them. This is no excuse to legitimize RMT, or even attempt to 'understand' their use. They merely perpetuate the issue of inflation beyond the game's means to dispense the gold, and in the end only serve to harm the economy no matter how you want to slice it.
Again, as is being realized by some, the solution lies in the hands of the devs who can't seem to understand economics 101 enough to solve their own problem, the reality of which is that Blizzard doesn't want to. Why should they forfeit subs and box sales from RMT when they can support it through such means that go undetected?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
The only positives you manage to point out are for the "I want it now generation". How is supporting such a sad group positive?
What is the point of playing a MMO when someone does all the work for you? You certainly have a warped view of what comprises player development in an MMO.
increase in pro-lazy bitch....er i mean RMT posts lately? check! poorly researched post trying to explain any pros to RMTing? check! accepting ads for sites like ige and such? check!....oh wait hasnt happened yet. sorry guys guess i jumped the gun there, give it some time its inevitable.
oh and for people like madaeux who thinks its not cheating that they can get stuff normal people earned...i...hmm...i think that...yknow what? the sheer amount of stupid in that argument is making it hard to think and type at the same time. ill think of something to say here later.
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...) Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...) Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
I, too, hate the old "in my day" rhetoric. I can kinda agree with you there.
However, I don't think any games exist (not even cash shop games) where RMT is "allowed" through the game's EULA - especially not even WoW. As I said above, these companies merely passively support such things through their inaction against it. If WoW wanted to squash RMT tomorrow and never allow it again they could, and I believe that with their resources, it'd be an extremely simple task. However, it'd damage their bottom line through loss of subs and box sales too much (eliminating RMT would make a HUGE cut into those highly touted 11.5m subs).
That still doesn't make it OK to use such services. Again, I'll point my finger squarely at devs who don't bother to understand their own game's economical dynamics, or choose to use such heavy-handed methods to remove gold from the player-base as WoW does, rather than put as much blame on the players as I may have formerly. Still, players who refuse to use normal methods of "earning" such things are the #1 reason RMT exists, so they're not exactly innocent in the issue.
To give a quick example (as quick as I'm capable of), I'm playing EQ2 now. In the simple course of leveling, and piddling around with its market, I managed to buy myself a 3 plat mount before I even hit level 20. All of my spells are nearly the highest quality you can get as you level, and my gear is as good as you could want from the market. How? I participate in the market, selling drops I don't need (spell books, recipe books, rare gathered mats etc.) to the players who clearly have the money to buy them. If I were the type of player who chose NOT to participate in that aspect of the game, my gear would be normal quest reward garbage (some is good, don't get me wrong), and whatever I managed to scrounge for myself. As well, my spells would be a minor step up from the basics (purchased from vendors) and I'd definitely not own a mount yet. In fact, I recently grouped with a pair of such players who were higher level than myself that were happy with their 10-15 gold each, and thought they were doing "well" until they learned of the over 20 platinum I'd earned for myself in the same time frame, by use of the broker. The problem? Some players don't want to spend time (no matter how little - and for some it doesn't come as easily as others) "playing the market" or taking advantage of that aspect of the game. Those same players, however, will hit that roadblock of currency extraction the games impliment in the form of mounts, or whatever the game uses that costs a player money, and cannot possibly (in most cases) overcome it with what little rewards have been given through questing, mob kills, and simple use of a vendor for coin. RMT fills that gap most commonly, and for those players. This is where simple re-design from the devs comes into play, and this is where the devs turn a blind eye and allow such things to bolster their bottom line through RMT box sales and subs.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Originally posted by Wraithone Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
increase in pro-lazy bitch....er i mean RMT posts lately? check! poorly researched post trying to explain any pros to RMTing? check! accepting ads for sites like ige and such? check!....oh wait hasnt happened yet. sorry guys guess i jumped the gun there, give it some time its inevitable.
oh and for people like madaeux who thinks its not cheating that they can get stuff normal people earned...i...hmm...i think that...yknow what? the sheer amount of stupid in that argument is making it hard to think and type at the same time. ill think of something to say here later.
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...) Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
Games are easier than in the past. Its a way to bring in folks who previously were intimidated by games. Its why the so called "carebear" games do so well and the PVP games at best do only so, so.
Originally posted by Wraithone Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
Originally posted by Wraithone Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
Yeah, it kinda seems like I conveniently left that part out, but I mostly wanted crystal clear clarification.
On that note, does such a game exist where the sale of in-game goods, gold, items, etc. in exchange for real money is permitted? Even the F2P games I've personally played don't allow outside services that sell gold. Sure, use of item mall items exchanged for gold/items within the game is often allowed, if not promoted or even essential to some degree, but the practice of buying gold and/or services (RMT) from an outside source is not.
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
As far as i know Project entropia allows you to pay real cash for ingame currency, not sure you can get money any other way when you start that game for the first time.
As far as i know Project entropia allows you to pay real cash for ingame currency, not sure you can get money any other way when you start that game for the first time.
Thats one of those that comes to mind. Lots of the very best things are available for sale that way. Its one of those games on the far end of the spectrum in that regard. One thats not quite so far is Freerealms. In that you can buy weapons and armor, potions and other such for real money. It all depends on what the Dev's set the game up for.
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
As has been true with several of your other assertions, you are quite incorrect on this one.
Blizzard tactically looks the other way on most of the RMT that goes on in their game, and only 'enforces' it for show to make folks like you think they want to run a clean game.
I've been caught by Blizzard buying gold. They did nothing more than warn me not to do it again and took away the gold they caught me with. They somehow missed about 3 other gold purchases which were much larger and they let me keep.
Why didn't they ban me and several other folks I know? Because we pay regular subs. At the time i had 3 accounts in good standing and had been playing regularly for 18 months. No way do they want to mess with my business, and to this day i still pay for one account for a family member.
Sure, they bluster alot, and I'm sure they hate the gold selling spam, account hacking (much of which is the result of 3rd party mods, and not gold buying) but in the end, they like the revenue that their gold buying player base (estimated to be as high as 35% by some accounts) brings in.
When EVE first started I bought ISK from an outside vendor because I could not make heads or tales of the GTC system.
I bought two lots of billion ISK. About a year after starting they apparently caught me, because they deducted one billion isk from my account. (never caught the 2nd billion so far) I didn't even get a warning or reprimand, they just took it away.
No big deal, now I don't need to buy ISK in EVE, but it was a great way to kick start the game for me.
Too many other posts were made in the deleted 400 post thread regarding the why's and hows of gold buying and selling, and neither camp will ever come to a compromise.
But before anyone throws stones at me for my "cheating" just make sure you don't /have never downloaded a song or movie illegally, gone faster than the posted speed limit, or fudged on your taxes. Those are all a form of dishonesty and rule breaking (and in most cases, actually illegal, unlike gold buying/selling) and you can't practice one and look down on the other.
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
Who the hell are you, and why should I care? Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
As has been true with several of your other assertions, you are quite incorrect on this one.
Blizzard tactically looks the other way on most of the RMT that goes on in their game, and only 'enforces' it for show to make folks like you think they want to run a clean game.
Glad you skipped through reading the entire thread to pick on one point without its prior information. Go back, read my other posts, and it's extremely clear where I stand on that point.
I've been caught by Blizzard buying gold. They did nothing more than warn me not to do it again and took away the gold they caught me with. They somehow missed about 3 other gold purchases which were much larger and they let me keep.
"they let me keep" would imply that somehow they informed you that "Hey, we busted you buying gold, but since you're a paying customer, just hang onto it this time!" when I seriously doubt that took place. When you were caught, they took your gold which you acquired outside of the game's means away. That's punishment, whether or not the money you lost to purchase said gold was an issue for you, and clearly the threat of harsher punishment loomed had you been caught again. I do specifically know of cases where players who've bought gold have been permanently banned, and Blizzard has clearly stated in the past that players caught in the practice of selling gold (specifically) will be banned.
Why didn't they ban me and several other folks I know? Because we pay regular subs. At the time i had 3 accounts in good standing and had been playing regularly for 18 months. No way do they want to mess with my business, and to this day i still pay for one account for a family member.
When I was playing WoW, I played with my girlfriend. I played on one account, and she owned three. One was an account she kept active for a little brother who would occassionally play, the others for her main and alts (so they could be run at the same time sometimes). At one point, she decided to make a new alt, but unbeknownst to me, she paid to have it power-leveled by an RMT service. I found out when the account got banned, and I could no longer get the stuff I had on it anymore. All three of her accounts were on the same CC, so the idea that because you own multiple accounts made you safe is a bit silly. It's your impression only, and borne of your lack of being caught.
Sure, they bluster alot, and I'm sure they hate the gold selling spam, account hacking (much of which is the result of 3rd party mods, and not gold buying) but in the end, they like the revenue that their gold buying player base (estimated to be as high as 35% by some accounts) brings in.
I do remember you from the other thread on the subject, and you seemed to assert your unsubstantiated claims there too as though they were fact. I'm not here to debate how many people do it, or how much revenue Blizzard itself makes from people who enjoy the use of RMT. The number of people doing it doesn't somehow make it suddenly right. I think that mentality is common amongst lemmings (not trying to be insulting). As for 3rd party mods being responsible, maybe for some, but most definitely not for all. I played the game in my last stint for 2 years to the month (Oct. '06 to Oct. '08). I used a laundry list of mods while playing, from UI enhancements, to databases, and so on. Never once was my account compromised. My entire guild list used similar mods, and plenty of them. Not a single person on my friends list or guild ever faced such an issue, and not but perhaps once in my playtime did I hear of someone getting hacked from using mods. These occurances are the exception, not the rule in my experience. Yours may differ. Please stop stating it in such a "matter of fact" manner.
When EVE first started I bought ISK from an outside vendor because I could not make heads or tales of the GTC system.
I bought two lots of billion ISK. About a year after starting they apparently caught me, because they deducted one billion isk from my account. (never caught the 2nd billion so far) I didn't even get a warning or reprimand, they just took it away.
No big deal, now I don't need to buy ISK in EVE, but it was a great way to kick start the game for me.
To this one, I'll just throw out there the expected "I'm too stupid to figure out how the game works - I'll buy money to make the problems go away!" condescending caricature. The fact is, if that's what you felt inclined to do to enjoy the game, that just sucks. I'll still offer some understanding though, and point to design issues making people feel more inclined to use RMT. It still doesn't make what you did there somehow OK.
Too many other posts were made in the deleted 400 post thread regarding the why's and hows of gold buying and selling, and neither camp will ever come to a compromise.
This isn't a case of compromise. It's cheating pure and simple. There's no justification that makes it somehow not cheating. As long as the rules are in place as they are, and the threat of punishment for breaking them looms, those who use RMT are cheating. Most players who invest time and hold sincere interest in their characters and the game they play absolutely refuse to buy gold even if they'd like to due to the potential for losing their characters, and/or accounts. I'll call you lucky, to say the least. The rest of the blame I'll happily place on Blizzard's blind eye who's more interested in its bottom line.
But before anyone throws stones at me for my "cheating" just make sure you don't /have never downloaded a song or movie illegally, gone faster than the posted speed limit, or fudged on your taxes. Those are all a form of dishonesty and rule breaking (and in most cases, actually illegal, unlike gold buying/selling) and you can't practice one and look down on the other.
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
The classic defense of the guilty. I've downloaded both songs and movies illegaly, have broken the speed limit (and been ticketed for going a whopping 4 miles over the speed limit on one occassion), but have never 'fudged' on my taxes. Do I attempt to say that downloading movies/music illegally is OK? No. I don't defend it to any degree, and those are actions of my past. Do I attempt to justify speeding? No. The occassion is few and far between that I'd agree that speeding is an OK thing (extreme emergencies; your house is burning, your family member is dying in the car next to you rushing to the hospital etc.), but even then it's still breaking the law. Anymore, I'm a big fan of setting my cruise control just at (or, admittedly, 1-3 MPH over - I drive a pickup) the posted limit. Overall, though, my point remains that others doing something doesn't mean it's OK. It doesn't somehow make it less wrong, and an attempt to defend yourself through the actions of others is absurd. To use your methods of defense, how about I say "Oh, I murdered this guy because my buddies all went off on killing sprees and never got busted, so it's ok!" Completely ridiculous right? Right.
I'm not sitting here pointing at you calling you the devil, or calling RMT a sin, either. I'm merely stating facts that somehow you can't seem to accept. It's clear through your necessity to defend and justify your actions that you know they're wrong. I'm not the one with the problem here - you are.
To top it all off, the worst part is that you don't want things to change from how they are, it would seem. I get the impression from you, and people like you, that you want to be capable of gaining the advantage that buying gold allows. Am I wrong? You tout your gold buying as if it's a lovely priveledge that you're proud to have, and defend it as though you don't want it to go away. Prove me wrong, please.
I've even gone so far in this thread as to point directly at the roots of the problem, and even suggested how it could be fixed. I'm not here trolling, being rude, or trying to insult those who disagree with me. I am trying to debunk the concept that it's an OK thing to do/use, and would love to see it go away completely. The problem is, as I've already clearly stated, these companies don't want to lose the revenue that RMT brings (through farmer accounts, and players wishing to cheat). The blame is on both the shoulders of the players, and the developers, make no mistake about it.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
To add, as not to cause confusion with my other post...
Blizzard "tactfully" looks the other way because their only recourse is to do so if they remain concerned with their profit margin. They could go the way of the cash shop, but this would certainly alienate a large portion of their playerbase. They could allow a means of buying gold with cash (they came close with the trading card items - but too lotto-like for most), but again players would dislike the disruption of the genuine experience of earning your keep. The fact is, that if they don't turn a blind eye to a large portion of it, again, they would lose a very large percentage of their subscriptions, and the future box sales to the farmers accounts which they ban, and those that will continue to come to the game. If they went extremely pro-active with it, taking too much action against players who participate, they would alienate the portion of the players, like Trollstar, who seek to gain an advantage over others. In the end, Blizzard has it to a point of stasis for their concerns, and clearly don't intend to change their actions in handling it. And yes, people are made an example of via bans and harsh punishment so as to discourage players, but to folks who just don't care, it won't stop them.
I'd just love to see one sound argument for RMT being good for a game that doesn't involve what constitutes cheating. As I pointed out earlier, this whole argument for the availability of craft materials doesn't fly, nor does the availability of rare items. The reality is, no matter how you argue it, RMT characters (read: farmers) constantly generate gold in a game like WoW. This causes massive inflation to a degree that is uncontrollable in the existing game, and causes changes to things such as mount costs that are intended to drain money from the economy in such a way as to keep things in check. These changes specifically affect players who don't use RMT, and new players in a far more drastic way. Please, dispute that, and tell me how much more "fun" you had because you didn't have to play the game.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Gold buying/farming destroys the economy theres no other way to put it , an eye opener for what ? Will we see a support poor chineese farmer that spends entire days in farming camps to make a living ? Making gold buying legal would destroy even more the economy so the rich people in real life would have a clear advantage over people who have less money , even though i hate WoW (played for a long time but the game went in a direction i dont like) i support Blizzard in their no tolerance toward gold buying , you buy gold you cheat you re banned
People should look at what happened to Lineage 2 when NCSoft took a very hard stance on farmers/bots in general - it died and went to private servers for the exact reason the OP mentioned - no low level materials and gear for crafting/grinding etc.
There is good and bad in both - usually the people with no job complain about the people who can afford to spend $15 on in game currency and don't want their "pro" status impacted by people who buy in game currency.....whose the bigger loser: One who works long hours for real life goods, or one who spends their life inside a game grinding for epeen items that could be removed with a simple press of the DEL key? Arguement goes both ways, neither side will win so pointless debating it.
Originally posted by Wraithone Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
Yeah, it kinda seems like I conveniently left that part out, but I mostly wanted crystal clear clarification.
On that note, does such a game exist where the sale of in-game goods, gold, items, etc. in exchange for real money is permitted? Even the F2P games I've personally played don't allow outside services that sell gold. Sure, use of item mall items exchanged for gold/items within the game is often allowed, if not promoted or even essential to some degree, but the practice of buying gold and/or services (RMT) from an outside source is not.
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
Besides PE, EVE Online allows the sale of GTC in the game as long as they are purchased from CCP...so basically they are the farmers and benefiting from the real life currency to in game currency trade. It's not an immediate trade, but basically you can make a bit of money from it quite quickly...
About "The solution to this problem? So far, it seems as if cash shops are a way to go." this is classical example how cure is much worse then disease. I can not imagine nothing worst to happen to any decent MMO.
However there is cure, pretty simple that could Blizzard apply.
Question is as usually, why people does something that is considered illegal? I guess not because they want to help economic status of gold sellers. It is because many prices in WOW are insanely high.
I remember my first "serious" alt, warrior, I stopped playing it because at lv. 40 i was far far from mount, i barely had 10g. So I started warlock that has mount for free. But I also learned to play better and understand game (and using a lot AH) so eventually after about 3 years all my 10 alts (for every class one) have mounts. But ... only one have epic ... because price is astronomical.
Ok, maybe one get a lot of money from raiding, selling, .... but for more casual player (and not so casual as well) high prices are nighmare that prevents them from enjoy in full game. Yes, yes, .... it would not make sense one would be able "by the way" to get epic gear at lv. 10 and mount .... and I'm not talking about this.
Blizzard, normalize prices and gold sellers (and buyers) will be gone.
IMO, gold sellers are the worst thing that can happen to any game. With exception of course company start to sell for real money themselve ingame objects.
Comments
I say just price cap everything. As long as there is an economy in a game and the players have some control over it, this kind of thing will be going on. Blizzard has done nothing but make gold sellers more wanted in the game. Look at the chopper, the vendor mats are what, around 12kG or so, maybe 15, not sure. Don't get me wrong, I know how easy it is to get gold in WoW, but 12kG is a LOT. They add more and more overpriced items to the game and wonder why some peeps buy gold. Don't give me that argument about prices only being high because of gold sellers. That's crap. There are people in these games that play just to make money. When they do that, and it's a free market, prices get run up. Then you addons like auctioneer that can be an actual tool to run the market up. If Blizz capped everything at prices that were kind of hard to get but not totally out of reach for everyone, then most of this would go away. Smaller games would be different I would think, but with almost 12 million subscriptions the market will be out of hand. IMO anyway
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
Thats been speading for a long time. Keyloggers and such. Not to mention the fools who use power leveling services. One of the best ways to keep your account safe is to use one of Blizzards digital authenticators. The other of course is to not visit gold selling or power leveling sites.
You do know how keyloggers work right?
Yes. You do know some of their methods of application?
Yes it is, in **WOW**. I personally detest gold spammers myself, and those who get ripped off by them have only themselves to blame. That having been said, in some other games its a matter of choice. No one is forcing anyone to buy cash shop items. But they can make a big difference, depending on the game. It all depends on the games dynamics and business model. Personally, I'd rather spend some real money on something of use, than endless hours raiding. Especially given the social dynamics and random nature of such raids.
Very well said. I feel the same way on the matter.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Im sorry but your musing just re-inforce what is wrong with todays breed of gamer and what is so annoying about WOW.
You mentioned that it brings items to the front that people wouldnt normally farm, ie large brilliant shards. Allowing enchanters to level up more easily.
Firstly these enchanters are now unknowingly feeding a farming trade.
and 2ndly you mention that this means they wont have to do it themselves.
This is the crutch for me.
Do it themselves.....grrrr ie instant gain with no pain.
A large majority of todays gamer couldn't handle old skool games becuase they made you work hard for your rewards - take EQ for a shining example.
You pretty much had bust your spleen to get anywhere.
Todays gamer would quit after the first 10minutes without some phat loot dropping at their feet. They need to have a goal - half the time in the games there was no goal it was all pure luck of the draw. Todays gamer would simply refuse to do it. "I cant see any clear goal so why should i?"
Which just reinforces the point really - large brilliant shards arent selling why should i go get them? - because you want them dofus.
You say the farmers stimulate the market - players can do this, but again people have to put effort in and sadly most of players who play wow - wont unless they know theres some purple shiny reward at the end.
Thus showing that WOW is not as "open world" or "free to do what you want" - its led by schoolboy mentality - stick with the pack dont stand out and follow like sheep.
Gold farmers kill player economies and raise prices on what is an already inflated market, the market will cap out at one point and you end up with any new player immediately being deterred by a sky high ecomony that could never hope to join until they hit endgame at least.
Fair point your trying to make but it doesnt cut the mustard
Ifs its old EQ yeah its understandable that gold sellers have an appeal. Even before the influx of gold farmers, items were already selling at thousand plats each. For a newbie who want some good gear, 1k plat is unimaginable. Added to that many good gear are tradable, not even bind on equip, and all gear are equippable on a lvl 1.
Now we talk about WoW. The best gear has level limits. The lvl 80 gear is expensive, but when you make it to lvl 80, you should not have problems earning money for it. Low level blues, oh dear, why do I care about lvl 60 gear? I fly by all levels till 68, and only using quest rewards. Till I hit 60, I never bother look at xp, I ding every few hours or less. Till 68, till I hit northrend things are push over. The only real money outlays are mounts and till lvl 70, the mounts are dirt cheap.
The really expensive things are post lvl 80. The enchanting (if you want those enc using abyss crystal) and gems (if you always gem out every piece of stop gap gear with the best gem) could add up quickly. So exercise caution and sense. For stop gap blue gear from 80 heroics, use green gems, or perfect whatever green gems. Its only 19 vs 17 or so +str, I forgot. That extra +2 str is not going to gimp you, given that the blue gear itself is a gimp if you insist on comparing it to lvl 213 epics.
Work out a plan to let money in. Not really farm. Just let money in. Loot mobs, clear bags before you head out, so you can collect vendor trash. Organise loot and try not to sell anything you might need later. Mail system and bank alts are your friends. 30copper per item mailed, you can organise them well, so you need not buy anything you happen to collect on and off.
Oh come on, these are just common sense, and with common sense, I am sitting on some 50+k gold across my few alts, never having an idea what I need to buy. After an epic land and flying mount, and gemming/enchanting only lvl 200+ gear (now only 213+ gear with patch 3.2), I have no other use for money. By the way, start crafting. In the long run, it pays off. I never farm the AH, I hardly sell on AH, I only sell to friends or give gear to friends. They return the favour with other forms of help. Say they cut my gems before I got my JC gear high enough.
The good thing about WoW is multifacet. You got many aspects of gaming in one package, and by playing them all together, you feel more variety than just raiding endlessly the same naxx and thaddius or KT. Trying out all crafts also broadens my own understanding of the game, of the issues others are talking about. Heck, I dunno why ppl are so upset and insistent on doing JC dailies everyday till I hit lvl 65 and talk the the JC trainer in dalaran. That is one new aspect of the game I discovered, and one more "fun" and "distress" noted, lol.
Buying money or powerlvling to 80? You miss most of the bit and pieces that makes the whole game. Heck, I actually relevelling a priest from lvl 1 just to try out a new levelling crafting combo. So much to replan and retry, and by the time I finished lvl 80 and 2x450 crafting, I am sitting on 6k gold on another alt. There is no need to hurry and finish an alt. Play it as it feels natural.
Blizzard would fudge up if they would add a way to buy items, that wouldn't be fair at all... why buy gold when it's so easy to make it, while you're leveling become a minerherbalistenchanter idk it's easy.... AH FTW, that's why the AH is there....
I completely concur with this thought. The main article only addresses one tiny aspect, the convenience of crafting goods.
The real impact of the gold trade hasn't been mentioned, not even in the comments. As large amounts of gold are acquired by the purported seller and secondhand sellers, the biggest impact that will be felt will be on a games free trade mechanism, since this discussion seems tailored to WoW, that means the Auction House. With large sums at their disposal, these sellers will buy out high volume or high demand items, reprice and then relist these items. In doing this, they accomplish 2 goals:
1. They make even more gold at a much faster rate than farming.
2. They create a demand for people to want to buy gold.
Just imagine if every item placed on Auction was sold for no more than 100-200% over NPC vendor payout prices. If you are playing WoW now, you probably can't. You have become so accustomed to inflated prices that seeing items like this would shock you.
The next time you pick up an MMO that is just being released, savor the prices on the Auction House. They only last a couple months at most.
increase in pro-lazy bitch....er i mean RMT posts lately? check!
poorly researched post trying to explain any pros to RMTing? check!
accepting ads for sites like ige and such? check!....oh wait hasnt happened yet. sorry guys guess i jumped the gun there, give it some time its inevitable.
oh and for people like madaeux who thinks its not cheating that they can get stuff normal people earned...i...hmm...i think that...yknow what? the sheer amount of stupid in that argument is making it hard to think and type at the same time. ill think of something to say here later.
I love that the 400+ reply post about this subject was recently deleted (Who buys Gold in MMO's?) followed by this article. Just strangely coincidental indeed.
The issue with games like WoW is that they don't have enough regular expenses to drain gold from the economy. Everything you kill drops coin (or trash which is vendorable for it), and the more players you have killing more monsters, the more gold flows into the economy. This causes extreme inflation for a game like WoW, and those who suffer from this are the ones who meet with the 4-5 year econ which introduces mounts costing thousands of gold, or dual-spec certification (or whatever it is - I no longer play WoW) that costs what, a thousand itself? For the older players, this is a drop in the bucket, but for new it's such a daunting task that of course the temptation is there to buy gold. Solution? Increase the expenses, decrease the ease of obtaining gold. The economy should only be a portion of a game and not its ruler (shouldn't be essential for every single player). WoW's heavy-handed approach to reduce the gold in their economies doesn't solve a thing, and in fact bolsters the necessity for gold buying for some. In that sense, I can understand why some buy gold in WoW, and may not even consider it 'cheating' myself (I do NOT buy gold, and am extremely anti-RMT).
Anyway, this article is a joke. You don't need RMT to go farm Large Brilliant Shards. In BC, I actually enjoyed a nice relaxing evening now and again of stealthing through Blackrock Depths on my druid to hit every boss I could find for shards. It'd net me hundreds of gold in a couple of hours easily. There always has been, and always will be **PLAYERS** who will do these things because that aspect of the game appeals to them. This is no excuse to legitimize RMT, or even attempt to 'understand' their use. They merely perpetuate the issue of inflation beyond the game's means to dispense the gold, and in the end only serve to harm the economy no matter how you want to slice it.
Again, as is being realized by some, the solution lies in the hands of the devs who can't seem to understand economics 101 enough to solve their own problem, the reality of which is that Blizzard doesn't want to. Why should they forfeit subs and box sales from RMT when they can support it through such means that go undetected?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
The only positives you manage to point out are for the "I want it now generation". How is supporting such a sad group positive?
What is the point of playing a MMO when someone does all the work for you? You certainly have a warped view of what comprises player development in an MMO.
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...)
Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...)
Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
I, too, hate the old "in my day" rhetoric. I can kinda agree with you there.
However, I don't think any games exist (not even cash shop games) where RMT is "allowed" through the game's EULA - especially not even WoW. As I said above, these companies merely passively support such things through their inaction against it. If WoW wanted to squash RMT tomorrow and never allow it again they could, and I believe that with their resources, it'd be an extremely simple task. However, it'd damage their bottom line through loss of subs and box sales too much (eliminating RMT would make a HUGE cut into those highly touted 11.5m subs).
That still doesn't make it OK to use such services. Again, I'll point my finger squarely at devs who don't bother to understand their own game's economical dynamics, or choose to use such heavy-handed methods to remove gold from the player-base as WoW does, rather than put as much blame on the players as I may have formerly. Still, players who refuse to use normal methods of "earning" such things are the #1 reason RMT exists, so they're not exactly innocent in the issue.
To give a quick example (as quick as I'm capable of), I'm playing EQ2 now. In the simple course of leveling, and piddling around with its market, I managed to buy myself a 3 plat mount before I even hit level 20. All of my spells are nearly the highest quality you can get as you level, and my gear is as good as you could want from the market. How? I participate in the market, selling drops I don't need (spell books, recipe books, rare gathered mats etc.) to the players who clearly have the money to buy them. If I were the type of player who chose NOT to participate in that aspect of the game, my gear would be normal quest reward garbage (some is good, don't get me wrong), and whatever I managed to scrounge for myself. As well, my spells would be a minor step up from the basics (purchased from vendors) and I'd definitely not own a mount yet. In fact, I recently grouped with a pair of such players who were higher level than myself that were happy with their 10-15 gold each, and thought they were doing "well" until they learned of the over 20 platinum I'd earned for myself in the same time frame, by use of the broker. The problem? Some players don't want to spend time (no matter how little - and for some it doesn't come as easily as others) "playing the market" or taking advantage of that aspect of the game. Those same players, however, will hit that roadblock of currency extraction the games impliment in the form of mounts, or whatever the game uses that costs a player money, and cannot possibly (in most cases) overcome it with what little rewards have been given through questing, mob kills, and simple use of a vendor for coin. RMT fills that gap most commonly, and for those players. This is where simple re-design from the devs comes into play, and this is where the devs turn a blind eye and allow such things to bolster their bottom line through RMT box sales and subs.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Feeble attempt at a "old school" jab about how easy modern games are(In my day we had to walk bare foot through 20 feet of ice and snow, up hill(both ways) to get our corpses back!...)
Check
Poorly reasoned shoot from the hip at the topic of RMT(Can't possibly have any pro's...) Check
Demonstrated lack of comprehension of free market dynamics? Check
Different games have different dynamics. If you don't like RMT in games, then don't play games that allow it. There is NO excuse for cheating(in games that don't allow RMT).
Games are easier than in the past. Its a way to bring in folks who previously were intimidated by games. Its why the so called "carebear" games do so well and the PVP games at best do only so, so.
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
Yeah, it kinda seems like I conveniently left that part out, but I mostly wanted crystal clear clarification.
On that note, does such a game exist where the sale of in-game goods, gold, items, etc. in exchange for real money is permitted? Even the F2P games I've personally played don't allow outside services that sell gold. Sure, use of item mall items exchanged for gold/items within the game is often allowed, if not promoted or even essential to some degree, but the practice of buying gold and/or services (RMT) from an outside source is not.
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
As far as i know Project entropia allows you to pay real cash for ingame currency, not sure you can get money any other way when you start that game for the first time.
Thats one of those that comes to mind. Lots of the very best things are available for sale that way. Its one of those games on the far end of the spectrum in that regard. One thats not quite so far is Freerealms. In that you can buy weapons and armor, potions and other such for real money. It all depends on what the Dev's set the game up for.
As has been true with several of your other assertions, you are quite incorrect on this one.
Blizzard tactically looks the other way on most of the RMT that goes on in their game, and only 'enforces' it for show to make folks like you think they want to run a clean game.
I've been caught by Blizzard buying gold. They did nothing more than warn me not to do it again and took away the gold they caught me with. They somehow missed about 3 other gold purchases which were much larger and they let me keep.
Why didn't they ban me and several other folks I know? Because we pay regular subs. At the time i had 3 accounts in good standing and had been playing regularly for 18 months. No way do they want to mess with my business, and to this day i still pay for one account for a family member.
Sure, they bluster alot, and I'm sure they hate the gold selling spam, account hacking (much of which is the result of 3rd party mods, and not gold buying) but in the end, they like the revenue that their gold buying player base (estimated to be as high as 35% by some accounts) brings in.
When EVE first started I bought ISK from an outside vendor because I could not make heads or tales of the GTC system.
I bought two lots of billion ISK. About a year after starting they apparently caught me, because they deducted one billion isk from my account. (never caught the 2nd billion so far) I didn't even get a warning or reprimand, they just took it away.
No big deal, now I don't need to buy ISK in EVE, but it was a great way to kick start the game for me.
Too many other posts were made in the deleted 400 post thread regarding the why's and hows of gold buying and selling, and neither camp will ever come to a compromise.
But before anyone throws stones at me for my "cheating" just make sure you don't /have never downloaded a song or movie illegally, gone faster than the posted speed limit, or fudged on your taxes. Those are all a form of dishonesty and rule breaking (and in most cases, actually illegal, unlike gold buying/selling) and you can't practice one and look down on the other.
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
Who the hell are you, and why should I care?
Congrats! You are a victim of Trollstar!
As has been true with several of your other assertions, you are quite incorrect on this one.
Blizzard tactically looks the other way on most of the RMT that goes on in their game, and only 'enforces' it for show to make folks like you think they want to run a clean game.
Glad you skipped through reading the entire thread to pick on one point without its prior information. Go back, read my other posts, and it's extremely clear where I stand on that point.
I've been caught by Blizzard buying gold. They did nothing more than warn me not to do it again and took away the gold they caught me with. They somehow missed about 3 other gold purchases which were much larger and they let me keep.
"they let me keep" would imply that somehow they informed you that "Hey, we busted you buying gold, but since you're a paying customer, just hang onto it this time!" when I seriously doubt that took place. When you were caught, they took your gold which you acquired outside of the game's means away. That's punishment, whether or not the money you lost to purchase said gold was an issue for you, and clearly the threat of harsher punishment loomed had you been caught again. I do specifically know of cases where players who've bought gold have been permanently banned, and Blizzard has clearly stated in the past that players caught in the practice of selling gold (specifically) will be banned.
Why didn't they ban me and several other folks I know? Because we pay regular subs. At the time i had 3 accounts in good standing and had been playing regularly for 18 months. No way do they want to mess with my business, and to this day i still pay for one account for a family member.
When I was playing WoW, I played with my girlfriend. I played on one account, and she owned three. One was an account she kept active for a little brother who would occassionally play, the others for her main and alts (so they could be run at the same time sometimes). At one point, she decided to make a new alt, but unbeknownst to me, she paid to have it power-leveled by an RMT service. I found out when the account got banned, and I could no longer get the stuff I had on it anymore. All three of her accounts were on the same CC, so the idea that because you own multiple accounts made you safe is a bit silly. It's your impression only, and borne of your lack of being caught.
Sure, they bluster alot, and I'm sure they hate the gold selling spam, account hacking (much of which is the result of 3rd party mods, and not gold buying) but in the end, they like the revenue that their gold buying player base (estimated to be as high as 35% by some accounts) brings in.
I do remember you from the other thread on the subject, and you seemed to assert your unsubstantiated claims there too as though they were fact. I'm not here to debate how many people do it, or how much revenue Blizzard itself makes from people who enjoy the use of RMT. The number of people doing it doesn't somehow make it suddenly right. I think that mentality is common amongst lemmings (not trying to be insulting). As for 3rd party mods being responsible, maybe for some, but most definitely not for all. I played the game in my last stint for 2 years to the month (Oct. '06 to Oct. '08). I used a laundry list of mods while playing, from UI enhancements, to databases, and so on. Never once was my account compromised. My entire guild list used similar mods, and plenty of them. Not a single person on my friends list or guild ever faced such an issue, and not but perhaps once in my playtime did I hear of someone getting hacked from using mods. These occurances are the exception, not the rule in my experience. Yours may differ. Please stop stating it in such a "matter of fact" manner.
When EVE first started I bought ISK from an outside vendor because I could not make heads or tales of the GTC system.
I bought two lots of billion ISK. About a year after starting they apparently caught me, because they deducted one billion isk from my account. (never caught the 2nd billion so far) I didn't even get a warning or reprimand, they just took it away.
No big deal, now I don't need to buy ISK in EVE, but it was a great way to kick start the game for me.
To this one, I'll just throw out there the expected "I'm too stupid to figure out how the game works - I'll buy money to make the problems go away!" condescending caricature. The fact is, if that's what you felt inclined to do to enjoy the game, that just sucks. I'll still offer some understanding though, and point to design issues making people feel more inclined to use RMT. It still doesn't make what you did there somehow OK.
Too many other posts were made in the deleted 400 post thread regarding the why's and hows of gold buying and selling, and neither camp will ever come to a compromise.
This isn't a case of compromise. It's cheating pure and simple. There's no justification that makes it somehow not cheating. As long as the rules are in place as they are, and the threat of punishment for breaking them looms, those who use RMT are cheating. Most players who invest time and hold sincere interest in their characters and the game they play absolutely refuse to buy gold even if they'd like to due to the potential for losing their characters, and/or accounts. I'll call you lucky, to say the least. The rest of the blame I'll happily place on Blizzard's blind eye who's more interested in its bottom line.
But before anyone throws stones at me for my "cheating" just make sure you don't /have never downloaded a song or movie illegally, gone faster than the posted speed limit, or fudged on your taxes. Those are all a form of dishonesty and rule breaking (and in most cases, actually illegal, unlike gold buying/selling) and you can't practice one and look down on the other.
'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'
The classic defense of the guilty. I've downloaded both songs and movies illegaly, have broken the speed limit (and been ticketed for going a whopping 4 miles over the speed limit on one occassion), but have never 'fudged' on my taxes. Do I attempt to say that downloading movies/music illegally is OK? No. I don't defend it to any degree, and those are actions of my past. Do I attempt to justify speeding? No. The occassion is few and far between that I'd agree that speeding is an OK thing (extreme emergencies; your house is burning, your family member is dying in the car next to you rushing to the hospital etc.), but even then it's still breaking the law. Anymore, I'm a big fan of setting my cruise control just at (or, admittedly, 1-3 MPH over - I drive a pickup) the posted limit. Overall, though, my point remains that others doing something doesn't mean it's OK. It doesn't somehow make it less wrong, and an attempt to defend yourself through the actions of others is absurd. To use your methods of defense, how about I say "Oh, I murdered this guy because my buddies all went off on killing sprees and never got busted, so it's ok!" Completely ridiculous right? Right.
I'm not sitting here pointing at you calling you the devil, or calling RMT a sin, either. I'm merely stating facts that somehow you can't seem to accept. It's clear through your necessity to defend and justify your actions that you know they're wrong. I'm not the one with the problem here - you are.
To top it all off, the worst part is that you don't want things to change from how they are, it would seem. I get the impression from you, and people like you, that you want to be capable of gaining the advantage that buying gold allows. Am I wrong? You tout your gold buying as if it's a lovely priveledge that you're proud to have, and defend it as though you don't want it to go away. Prove me wrong, please.
I've even gone so far in this thread as to point directly at the roots of the problem, and even suggested how it could be fixed. I'm not here trolling, being rude, or trying to insult those who disagree with me. I am trying to debunk the concept that it's an OK thing to do/use, and would love to see it go away completely. The problem is, as I've already clearly stated, these companies don't want to lose the revenue that RMT brings (through farmer accounts, and players wishing to cheat). The blame is on both the shoulders of the players, and the developers, make no mistake about it.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
To add, as not to cause confusion with my other post...
Blizzard "tactfully" looks the other way because their only recourse is to do so if they remain concerned with their profit margin. They could go the way of the cash shop, but this would certainly alienate a large portion of their playerbase. They could allow a means of buying gold with cash (they came close with the trading card items - but too lotto-like for most), but again players would dislike the disruption of the genuine experience of earning your keep. The fact is, that if they don't turn a blind eye to a large portion of it, again, they would lose a very large percentage of their subscriptions, and the future box sales to the farmers accounts which they ban, and those that will continue to come to the game. If they went extremely pro-active with it, taking too much action against players who participate, they would alienate the portion of the players, like Trollstar, who seek to gain an advantage over others. In the end, Blizzard has it to a point of stasis for their concerns, and clearly don't intend to change their actions in handling it. And yes, people are made an example of via bans and harsh punishment so as to discourage players, but to folks who just don't care, it won't stop them.
I'd just love to see one sound argument for RMT being good for a game that doesn't involve what constitutes cheating. As I pointed out earlier, this whole argument for the availability of craft materials doesn't fly, nor does the availability of rare items. The reality is, no matter how you argue it, RMT characters (read: farmers) constantly generate gold in a game like WoW. This causes massive inflation to a degree that is uncontrollable in the existing game, and causes changes to things such as mount costs that are intended to drain money from the economy in such a way as to keep things in check. These changes specifically affect players who don't use RMT, and new players in a far more drastic way. Please, dispute that, and tell me how much more "fun" you had because you didn't have to play the game.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
LONG LIVE GOLD BUYING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People should look at what happened to Lineage 2 when NCSoft took a very hard stance on farmers/bots in general - it died and went to private servers for the exact reason the OP mentioned - no low level materials and gear for crafting/grinding etc.
There is good and bad in both - usually the people with no job complain about the people who can afford to spend $15 on in game currency and don't want their "pro" status impacted by people who buy in game currency.....whose the bigger loser: One who works long hours for real life goods, or one who spends their life inside a game grinding for epeen items that could be removed with a simple press of the DEL key? Arguement goes both ways, neither side will win so pointless debating it.
I just have to add very quickly that, the only "pro" from RMT is to that player which decides to use it. Any player who does so is using a form of cheating over any player who doesn't. That's a fact, and not opinion. To add a quick definition for clarity:
cheat
Verb
Infinitive
to cheat
Third person singular
cheats
Simple past
cheated
Past participle
cheated
Present participle
cheating
to cheat (third-person singular simple present cheats, present participle cheating, simple past and past participle cheated)
1. (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.
The very first definition of the word, which I've clearly placed in bold, underlined text is what applies most clearly to the use of RMT in MMO's. Justify it how you want - it is still cheating. Some people are OK with that, and I can even lend some people understanding. The evidence of its damaging effects are still there, however, and while each person's milage may vary on what impact they have through its use ("I don't buy much gold - it doesn't matter!"), it's still a contribution.
You may not have noticed, but I did say that there is NO excuse for cheating. If a game allows RMT, then by definition RMT is NOT cheating, since its part of the rules and available to anyone who wishes to take part.
Yeah, it kinda seems like I conveniently left that part out, but I mostly wanted crystal clear clarification.
On that note, does such a game exist where the sale of in-game goods, gold, items, etc. in exchange for real money is permitted? Even the F2P games I've personally played don't allow outside services that sell gold. Sure, use of item mall items exchanged for gold/items within the game is often allowed, if not promoted or even essential to some degree, but the practice of buying gold and/or services (RMT) from an outside source is not.
Point is, RMT is a no-no almost anywhere (if not everywhere) you look, particularly in WoW which this thread is directed at. If you get busted, you WILL get punished via perma ban, temp ban, etc.. That alone is a clear indicator that it's not allowed, and is wrong in WoW.
Besides PE, EVE Online allows the sale of GTC in the game as long as they are purchased from CCP...so basically they are the farmers and benefiting from the real life currency to in game currency trade. It's not an immediate trade, but basically you can make a bit of money from it quite quickly...
About "The solution to this problem? So far, it seems as if cash shops are a way to go." this is classical example how cure is much worse then disease. I can not imagine nothing worst to happen to any decent MMO.
However there is cure, pretty simple that could Blizzard apply.
Question is as usually, why people does something that is considered illegal? I guess not because they want to help economic status of gold sellers. It is because many prices in WOW are insanely high.
I remember my first "serious" alt, warrior, I stopped playing it because at lv. 40 i was far far from mount, i barely had 10g. So I started warlock that has mount for free. But I also learned to play better and understand game (and using a lot AH) so eventually after about 3 years all my 10 alts (for every class one) have mounts. But ... only one have epic ... because price is astronomical.
Ok, maybe one get a lot of money from raiding, selling, .... but for more casual player (and not so casual as well) high prices are nighmare that prevents them from enjoy in full game. Yes, yes, .... it would not make sense one would be able "by the way" to get epic gear at lv. 10 and mount .... and I'm not talking about this.
Blizzard, normalize prices and gold sellers (and buyers) will be gone.
IMO, gold sellers are the worst thing that can happen to any game. With exception of course company start to sell for real money themselve ingame objects.