I'd ask the same question, but when I do, I always get shouted out by the pixel junkies that instead of animations prefer pink rainbows and shooting stars and fireworks worthy of the 4'th of july comming from their characters behind when they do the simplest thing.
Just look at SWG. It had gorgeous animations, one I remember very fondly was when shooting the Rocketlauncher...
My stormtrooper(I played a trooper, not some Whiney Luke Jedi wannabe) would kneel down, put his E-11 carbine on the ground(!!!) put the launcher on his shoulder, aim and fire it, before grabbing his E-11 carbine and getting back on his feet.
It was such "art" that I always carried 10 with me(They were bugged, and hard to craft, so no one used em in PvP or PvE) when I could find some.
Then with the CU and NGE... The animation vanished, replaced by a carryable gun that fired lightshows worthy of the New years eve fireworks. Instead of a game filled with motion, we now had a game where your screen was filled with rainbows cluttering and hiding anythig going on in the game...
And, we see it again in the upcomming SOE hero game, where again animations have been swapped for nauseating(typo?) purple sparly rainbows. Instead of animations...we get fireworks. And I hate it, and thank Thor and Odin that I'm not an epeleptic, because then I might have had to quit as a gamer.
So you're asking for better animations? Well, why not but is it really so imporant? I look at the past successful games and the evolution of gaming and I see better sound, nicer graphics and many many poor game play. Honestly graphics are just a topping in a FUN game even in MMOs. I'd rather have studios spend more time and $$$ on gameplay and content then and only then if they can afford it, enhance graphics and animations. But well before that and especially in MMO I wish the studio spent more time on the following key elements that are always poorly done:
GUI Chat functionnality Guild mechanics Friend list features Inventory management Auction houses interaction
In fact all that stands between the player and his character. I'm very surprized such major features are mostly rushed out considering they can make or break the game play. Don't get me wrong, I'm an explorer type of gamer so I like nice graphics but they always come after the game play. A nice game with poor game play won't last more than a few hours. Honestly when you are engaged in challenging and fast combat you don't really focus on animations you don't have the time to.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
"So you're asking for better animations? Well, why not but is it really so imporant?!"
So many people just seem to not get the fundamentals of how to make a game and its amazing, for a 3D game you NEED animation, without animation there is no movement in those fancy 3D characters you cling to so much, without animation you cannot see what is going on in the game, without animation there is no real-time engine.
Many high end graphics games to date and not just MMO's put the bear minimum on animation, they're just lazy, I see games like Legend of Zelda and Super Mario 64 having ten times better animations than the retarded robot walk that many 'high end' games operate on today.
Fallout 3 is a great example, you'd think they'd have the decency to at least vary the walking a bit more or the run, it looks rather ridiculous when you see super mutants fifty feet higher than you walking in the exact same way.
You guys trying to argue against this have absolutely no argument, there is none, even if you reduce the animations to the bare minimum you still have animations, the only time you could even consider not having animations in a 3D game is if it were turn based but even then guess what? *gasp* you still need to animate the characters on the screen so they actually shift forward slightly in order to attack!
In fact I would say that the highest priorities of games design are not graphics, graphics is just an after thought, what should be focused on is the gameplay mechanics and animation, it doesn't matter if you have a stick figure, if you have it really well animated and put an interesting game behind it then it'll look great regardless.
If you guys want graphics so badly then get a text based game and stick a bunch of really pretty pictures up on the backgrounds because thats basically all you'd have without animation, the majority of you simply don't realize how essential it is in development to have even the minimum effort put into animation.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
To some extent I have to agree, but with out the detail the immersion factor would be lacking. When developers start to cap out on what they can do with details/textures we'll start to see additional animations.
Funny thing is if you compare sports games year after year they always push the bar on textures, animations, and AI.
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I think some got a little confused by my earlier post about "...really beefy rigs for better animations". I did not mean a high end gaming pc. Rigging is simply a term we use in modeling/ animation that take a mannequin-esque 3d character/ object and attaches morphs and control joints for animations, which are then tied to bone hierarchies, for animation. The more you have, the more lifelike the object is. For facial emotes, a good round number is around 80 points on the face that can be morphed and animated, depending on the character type, for example. Each point is located and attached manually, which of course takes time.
Think of those old string puppets. The more strings you have attached to parts of Pinochio's body, the more lifelike he moves (depending on your skill at puppeteering, of course). Same can be said for 3d models. The problem is, many mmo studios do not care for a high level of control, hence why some emotes look bland. It has less to do with your own personal machine (most of the time of an animation load is spent loading the models/ textures involved- not the actual animation sequence). Now we have established what a " really beefy rig for better animations" is for.
In contrast, the NUMBER of animations available, completely depends on the time and budget for the animations. Since most people know how to rig for keyframing, that is what is most often used. However, it is the choice that takes the most time, thereby cutting down on the number of animations available (ie death animations, for topic purposes). Some have recently started using a motion capture camera setup, which is hugely expensive, but well worth it, I think. By using motion capture and real actors, the skeleton is derived straight from the animation file, and can then be directly attached to the character rig. See that actor hold a weapon realistically on camera, and you see your character model do the exact same thing. In fact, the ONLY drawback to motion capture right now, is the cost of the equipment and the actors. In my opinion though, if you are aiming for a AAA title, the equipment should be factored into your budget anyways these days. It will most often not only pay for itself in the first title, but you can indeed use the equipment for subsequent titles, thereby bringing much more value.
Then you have the new Havoc engine that games like Requiem: Bloodymare uses. While giving "super-realistic" ragdoll physics, the rigging is considerably different for that engine. Not many animators today really are comfortable yet with it, but we are all learning. This is a really cheap way of getting nearly infinet "death animations", as well as "falling", and so forth. Expect to see this engine put to far more use in the near future, as studios learn how to use it.
My personal opinion, being a cinematix affectionado, is to use both motion capture for the "stale animations" like sword swinging, emotes, running, stuff like that- and use Havoc for that bloody goodness at the end of life, whether a 10 ft tall Minotaur throws you, or you get cleaved in half and your arm chucked 20 paces away. I expect studios to soon be using both of these methods, in far more popularity, to address the problem.
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW -- -- "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
"My personal opinion, being a cinematix affectionado, is to use both motion capture for the "stale animations" like sword swinging, emotes, running, stuff like that- and use Havoc for that bloody goodness at the end of life, whether a 10 ft tall Minotaur throws you, or you get cleaved in half and your arm chucked 20 paces away. I expect studios to soon be using both of these methods, in far more popularity, to address the problem."
It depends on how complex your game is, sometimes you have to use a mixture or use simple animations so that its just easier for the programmers to actually get the animations into the game without it looking ridiculous, Empire Total War is an example, they did motion capture for all the infantry fighting apparently and while yeah the animations themselves look cool, very rarely do the weapons and characters actually meet so they either end up going through each other when they shouldn't or they just fight thin air because of the way the game was coded.
Sometimes its better to have quite simple animations and actually intergrate it into the game directly so that when you click that button you do that strike in that direction as opposed to doing fancy spinny spinny swordfighting and end up just fighting thin air. Pre-Cu SWG did the animations great but it ended up actually looking rather silly because very rarely did the animations actually play in a realistic fashion because people were just too busy spamming combat skills at each other.
You've also got to bare in mind that motion capture is apparently far more difficult to do than just doing some sequences in a 3D software and even then I wouldn't touch animation with a ten foot pole because the idea of key-framing just drives me insane.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
So you're asking for better animations? Well, why not but is it really so imporant? I look at the past successful games and the evolution of gaming and I see better sound, nicer graphics and many many poor game play. Honestly graphics are just a topping in a FUN game even in MMOs. I'd rather have studios spend more time and $$$ on gameplay and content then and only then if they can afford it, enhance graphics and animations. But well before that and especially in MMO I wish the studio spent more time on the following key elements that are always poorly done:
GUI Chat functionnality Guild mechanics Friend list features Inventory management Auction houses interaction
In fact all that stands between the player and his character. I'm very surprized such major features are mostly rushed out considering they can make or break the game play. Don't get me wrong, I'm an explorer type of gamer so I like nice graphics but they always come after the game play. A nice game with poor game play won't last more than a few hours. Honestly when you are engaged in challenging and fast combat you don't really focus on animations you don't have the time to.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
People always ask to choose one or the other like do you want Gameplay or Graphics? I say I need it all to come together bercause if theres one thing that bothers me then it'll get on my nerves the whole time playing and just put me off. If the PVP isn't good then I wont want to play it and if the graphics arn't good then I don't want to explore and if the animations are crappy then I wont enjoy combat.
It all needs to be good and thats why WoW is so popular because it does so much spot on where as other mmorpgs make you choose.
only 1 good reason we compromise witht he graphics these days its not like going out and buying a xbox360 and a brand new game
these days you need a almost brand new pc with top notch graphics cards to play anything so a xbox360 $199 + game out the door
brand new gaming laptop / desktop with 3+ GHz and ndivia graphics or ATI graphics cards with 2 gig + of ddr3 ram will run u in a couple
1,000's i mean would you rather buy a 200 - 300 $ gameing system to play new games and a basic older pc to run online games insted of spending money your dont have on expensive shyt that will be out dated in no time the way games and their graphics are?
im not rich i could barly afford a xbox360 and my laptop is over 5 years old and i cant play half the games online that i want b ecause they require more advanced graphics and memory that my laptop has but look at te xbox360 the system is like what 3-4 maybe 5 years old since it came out and still not outdates its kinda annoying how pc's get outdatd faster than gaming systems and gaming systems are cheaper
"It all needs to be good and thats why WoW is so popular because it does so much spot on where as other mmorpgs make you choose."
Anyone who's done their research knows that the reason WoW was a success was because of Blizzards massive marketing campaign and the fact they already had a massive franchise which automatically gives you a playerbase. Gameplay wise it doesn't really offer anything that other MMORPGs haven't already offered except they made it far more easier for people to level up etc. in fact I don't know why I'm even saying this because I just know I'm going to be ignored anyway as a lot of players here aren't interested in facts and just want stirred up drama which must be why the Darkfall forums are currently the most ridiculously active.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
"It all needs to be good and thats why WoW is so popular because it does so much spot on where as other mmorpgs make you choose." Anyone who's done their research knows that the reason WoW was a success was because of Blizzards massive marketing campaign and the fact they already had a massive franchise which automatically gives you a playerbase. Gameplay wise it doesn't really offer anything that other MMORPGs haven't already offered except they made it far more easier for people to level up etc. in fact I don't know why I'm even saying this because I just know I'm going to be ignored anyway as a lot of players here aren't interested in facts and just want stirred up drama which must be why the Darkfall forums are currently the most ridiculously active.
While I am sure neither of those things hurt Blizzard, I'd say the biggest reason it got so huge is that they executed things so well and simply for a general audience.
Too many MMOs require a book and a spreadsheet for someone new to the genre to figure out. WoW distilled that perfectly and, somewhat paradoxically to this article, did it in a way that looked good on a large range of PCs.
Dana Massey Formerly of MMORPG.com Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Oh yes I agree what kept and still keeps the subscribers is how simple and solid the game is, in fact thats what it usually takes just to get me to at least try a game, but what got the millions was the fact that they actually reached out to people in the real world rather than just spam advertisements across the internet, I'm sure even if you were in an area that they weren't focusing on you would have at least noticed the odd bus ad or advertisement in a game store, I know I did. People who use the internet have likely gotten into games so they're probably going to be on the lookout for a game anyway for the most part.
Current MMORPGs aren't necessarily complex, far from it, they're bloody simple the repeated grinding for levels and all the gear and statistics just give the illusion of complexity and most people just simply don't think in that way so it seems unnatural to them.
Its the same with me, I love games like Mirror's Edge but when I pick up an MMO now its just utterly boring because all it is really is just a bunch of numbers flashing up on the screen, they don't even attempt to entertain me with flashy animations which would at least keep things interesting.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
I'm not talking about insane animation. I'm talking about decent animation. There will always be some lag between AAA games and MMOs, visually speaking. However, a lot more could be done on MMOs than is being done and, honestly, I don't believe that a lot of it would overload an average PC. Most computers can handle rag doll death, for example, but few (or no?) MMOs use it.
Understood. I got the sense from the other comments that some people were misconstruing possibilities. Yeah, ragdoll and current "PhysX" should 100% be in every mmo made henceforth. This and similar measures I agree with.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
Don't worry, I do trust you.
I see your concern and I would also be very happy to have nice animations.
Even there is so much to be enhanced or simply fixed in MMO that animations are far behind in the list. At least in my book.
Now can studios afford doing nice animations along with the rest. Could be but all is a matter of choice. And contrary to FPS animations aren't the main concern in MMO so far.
"Now can studios afford doing nice animations along with the rest. Could be but all is a matter of choice. And contrary to FPS animations aren't the main concern in MMO so far."
Just to correct you there, animators get paid just about the same as 3D Modellers but of course it purely depends on the personality of the company, most of it is down to either deadlines or just outright laziness and frankly a lot of the time I have found it is more due to laziness than actually having a problem implementing proper animations in the game.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
It depends on how complex your game is, sometimes you have to use a mixture or use simple animations so that its just easier for the programmers to actually get the animations into the game without it looking ridiculous, Empire Total War is an example, they did motion capture for all the infantry fighting apparently and while yeah the animations themselves look cool, very rarely do the weapons and characters actually meet so they either end up going through each other when they shouldn't or they just fight thin air because of the way the game was coded.
You've also got to bare in mind that motion capture is apparently far more difficult to do than just doing some sequences in a 3D software and even then I wouldn't touch animation with a ten foot pole because the idea of key-framing just drives me insane.
True, but a AAA MMO is monstrously complex in and of itself. I am not talking about games where some guy is running it from a few basements, I am talking big studio fare. With recent releases of 3ds Max and Maya, we have integrated object collision, which should also stop the problems stated above. Also, I agree that the programmers need to make sure it works in the right instance. However, choosing between a motion captured file, and a key-framed file to insert in the code, does not make a difference. Once the captured file is attached to a skeleton, and the skeleton to the model, along with supporting texture maps, it doesn't care what file type originated the animation, be it captured, keyed, or even Havoced. Even Havoced at that point, will just load the animation parameters into its engine and get the end result. Not as much control over it (unless you are OCD about it), but it really doesn't require much, if at all,special coding on the programmers part to distinguish between the three.
The great thing about motion capture, is it generates its own key frames. You don't have to move/rotate a pinky finger in to a new XYZ rotation! Capture ball has already done that to the skeleton you built and attached the file to. Now just put that skeleton on the rigged model, and away it goes! I hate key framing as much as anyone else. It is sadistic work, keyframing. But it seems that is still the focus in school these days. Not slamming the technique by any means, as I use it myself- but there are more effecient ways to do the same thing, with better results. So any enhancement that can get us away from that, I am all for. If you have ever had the chance to work between the two animation types, I guarantee you will prefer motion captured over spending days for one keyframed sequence!
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW -- -- "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
So you're asking for better animations? Well, why not but is it really so imporant? I look at the past successful games and the evolution of gaming and I see better sound, nicer graphics and many many poor game play. Honestly graphics are just a topping in a FUN game even in MMOs. I'd rather have studios spend more time and $$$ on gameplay and content then and only then if they can afford it, enhance graphics and animations. But well before that and especially in MMO I wish the studio spent more time on the following key elements that are always poorly done:
GUI Chat functionnality Guild mechanics Friend list features Inventory management Auction houses interaction
In fact all that stands between the player and his character. I'm very surprized such major features are mostly rushed out considering they can make or break the game play. Don't get me wrong, I'm an explorer type of gamer so I like nice graphics but they always come after the game play. A nice game with poor game play won't last more than a few hours. Honestly when you are engaged in challenging and fast combat you don't really focus on animations you don't have the time to.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
Dana, im so glad u said that. I grt so tired of people on these forums acting like there can only be one or the other. Why cant we have new updated graphics and a good content based game at the same time....
I am with the OP 100%. Why dont a sword stabb stop when you hit?
Bioware are using motions suits now for their animations, that will probably make things better but it really sucks that they use 10 years old animations in the latest games.
The combat doesnt look the least bit real and it should today with modern graphics.
It really points a valid point and the reason which it took so long to be brought should be basically the reason why it hasn't changed - people haven't asked for that.
At least for me, I never paid much attention to animation, but thanks to this read I started to pay more attention and see how pathethic animations relatively are when compared to the graphical evolution of MMOs, you could even say it has received no progression. In my case it's because I'm pretty much outdated outside the MMO genre, so I don't have that "neighbor's greener grass" to envy.
Still, the reason it has not changed is because customers haven't talked much about it - so hopefully your article will make people talk and ask for it.
This is essentially important for the growth of the MMO genre to make it compete with other genres and absorb players from them, so MMOs can go on on their quest to dominate the world in a true Matrix (haha).
Even if we don't animate every single different type of trauma animation, we could at least get some groups of such. For example, why not have a different animation based on the type of attack?
Melee hit = grab chest and stagger a bit
Melee block/parry = attacker's weapon seems to "bounce" from the target, who swings weapon/shield to the side
Dodge = target hops back and/or sidesteps a noticable bit, then goes back to a neutral position
Ranged DD hit = stagger back a step or two
DOT / AOE = go to one knee for a moment, maybe stagger in random direction one step
These are just some ideas. The point is that even if we don't try to animate a perfectly realistic sequence to everything that hits a model, maybe we can just compromise for now on slightly more realistic hit animations.
You know, I can at least understand why we don't have more variety of animations to match every hit location or death event. You could make hundreds of highly specific animations and still wish you could have more.
However, what is inexcusable is the largely mediocre to poor quality of existing character animations in most MMORPGs today. Quality does vary. You'll definitely notice the difference when you play a game with good animation, then play one where it's lacking.
It seems to come down to three things; time, money and talent. You really need all three to get things right, but a huge focus on talent. Talented animators can do more with in time and monetary budgets. Even for really good animators, it's about having the time to tweak animations until they are just right. I've animated 3D humans for short clips of CGI video and I know the rough animations are less than half the fight, the fine tuning is what takes time, but pays the highest dividends.
The thing is, the extra effort is worth it. Players, when turning away from a game they went into with high hopes, actually DO often cite poor animations as a common element in what turned them off to a title. Great animations won't save a game with troubles elsewhere, but poor animations can be the tipping point when someone is on the fence about a decent, or even good game.
It's also something people will notice right away during that crucial first impressions phase. I can think of two titles I've played where the horrible animations actually precluded me from giving those games a fair shake. And a couple where the lackluster animations contributed to me leaving games I might otherwise have stuck with.
There really is no excuse for lack of quality in animations we see in most MMORPGs today.
To those complaining about the availability of top notch graphics/ animations vs 10 year old techniques, have to understand a few things. The pc market recieved it's first real "next-gen" turn over only a couple of years ago. It was only then that enough pcs, with the capabilities, had propagated the market to an extent worthy of trying to implement next gen graphics/ animations. Now some studios have jumped on it, Funcom being one. Cryptic as I understand it, has recently as well as Star Vault, and CCP. You have to understand, that your technique of animation, determines how the models are to be rigged, and thusly sometimes the models themselves. It is little doubt this is one reason it has taken years of development for an artist team to pull together all the required art/ animation for a top notch game, in the past. Also, it has only been within the last few years that Autodesk has made certain functions, like object collision and Havoc rigging/ motion capture of lower end models, a real possible alternative. I dare say, all games made today, use one of Autodesk's various products to accomplish the task, and thereby all studios are at the mercy of their artist's ability to navigate their <frustrating> programs for the best solutions.
Now understand, this only came about in the last few years, I mean probably trully the last three. Since many mmos to be released this year and next, probably got their production start around that time, it is sufficient to say that many of them will likely include the new animating techniques, and thusly more animations and at a better quality. In fact, I would conclude that the ones that choose NOT to include it, either began before this timeframe, or lacked the knowledge of how to use them in their own pipeline at the start.
Bare in mind though, that unless the game is getting a graphical overhaul, any expansions typically use the older techniques that the original game was based on. This is why WOTLK hasnt gotten better character models/ animations, as well as LOTRO, even though both put out expansions this year.
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW -- -- "Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
To real rpg'ers graphics never meant sh--. ok, i played temple of apshai on the commodore 64, and it knocked my sox off for about two weeks when i was 13 years old. All the older mmo crowd wanted was a computer version of D&D, and WoW is as close as it gets right now. The cartoon graphics are endearing. We like it. The closer computer animated graphics get to "realism" the less interested I am.
When I read the forums on this godforsaken website, most of them have to do with complaints concerning the lack of good, new, emersive, all enveloping mmorpg's. People like Wow or people like Eve. Warhammer and Conan are still too young for any of the mmo addicts to accept. What really matters is a break. Take a couple months off, meth head.
You play Wow for a few years and you realize that there is always some dumb mofo that has better gear than you. There is always someone who kicks your ass. It sucks, but that is what an mmo really is, competition. We LOVE competing. Even on PvE realms.
As soon as I can muster up enough dough to get a new comp, I will get WAR. Wow let me keep my little 128M graphic card without having to worry about an upgrade for years. Like I said, graphics don't mean sh. Beating the crap out of some other toon is what rocks my boat. ---Props to darkfall for having full loot, even if the game is a knocked off, half-ass'ed morrowind clone, full looting adds some real meaning to the term RRRRRRRAAAAAAAPPPPPPPEEEE!
Comments
I'd ask the same question, but when I do, I always get shouted out by the pixel junkies that instead of animations prefer pink rainbows and shooting stars and fireworks worthy of the 4'th of july comming from their characters behind when they do the simplest thing.
Just look at SWG. It had gorgeous animations, one I remember very fondly was when shooting the Rocketlauncher...
My stormtrooper(I played a trooper, not some Whiney Luke Jedi wannabe) would kneel down, put his E-11 carbine on the ground(!!!) put the launcher on his shoulder, aim and fire it, before grabbing his E-11 carbine and getting back on his feet.
It was such "art" that I always carried 10 with me(They were bugged, and hard to craft, so no one used em in PvP or PvE) when I could find some.
Then with the CU and NGE... The animation vanished, replaced by a carryable gun that fired lightshows worthy of the New years eve fireworks. Instead of a game filled with motion, we now had a game where your screen was filled with rainbows cluttering and hiding anythig going on in the game...
And, we see it again in the upcomming SOE hero game, where again animations have been swapped for nauseating(typo?) purple sparly rainbows. Instead of animations...we get fireworks. And I hate it, and thank Thor and Odin that I'm not an epeleptic, because then I might have had to quit as a gamer.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
"So you're asking for better animations? Well, why not but is it really so imporant?!"
So many people just seem to not get the fundamentals of how to make a game and its amazing, for a 3D game you NEED animation, without animation there is no movement in those fancy 3D characters you cling to so much, without animation you cannot see what is going on in the game, without animation there is no real-time engine.
Many high end graphics games to date and not just MMO's put the bear minimum on animation, they're just lazy, I see games like Legend of Zelda and Super Mario 64 having ten times better animations than the retarded robot walk that many 'high end' games operate on today.
Fallout 3 is a great example, you'd think they'd have the decency to at least vary the walking a bit more or the run, it looks rather ridiculous when you see super mutants fifty feet higher than you walking in the exact same way.
You guys trying to argue against this have absolutely no argument, there is none, even if you reduce the animations to the bare minimum you still have animations, the only time you could even consider not having animations in a 3D game is if it were turn based but even then guess what? *gasp* you still need to animate the characters on the screen so they actually shift forward slightly in order to attack!
In fact I would say that the highest priorities of games design are not graphics, graphics is just an after thought, what should be focused on is the gameplay mechanics and animation, it doesn't matter if you have a stick figure, if you have it really well animated and put an interesting game behind it then it'll look great regardless.
If you guys want graphics so badly then get a text based game and stick a bunch of really pretty pictures up on the backgrounds because thats basically all you'd have without animation, the majority of you simply don't realize how essential it is in development to have even the minimum effort put into animation.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Great article Dana! Gets the ideas flowing!
To some extent I have to agree, but with out the detail the immersion factor would be lacking. When developers start to cap out on what they can do with details/textures we'll start to see additional animations.
Funny thing is if you compare sports games year after year they always push the bar on textures, animations, and AI.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I think some got a little confused by my earlier post about "...really beefy rigs for better animations". I did not mean a high end gaming pc. Rigging is simply a term we use in modeling/ animation that take a mannequin-esque 3d character/ object and attaches morphs and control joints for animations, which are then tied to bone hierarchies, for animation. The more you have, the more lifelike the object is. For facial emotes, a good round number is around 80 points on the face that can be morphed and animated, depending on the character type, for example. Each point is located and attached manually, which of course takes time.
Think of those old string puppets. The more strings you have attached to parts of Pinochio's body, the more lifelike he moves (depending on your skill at puppeteering, of course). Same can be said for 3d models. The problem is, many mmo studios do not care for a high level of control, hence why some emotes look bland. It has less to do with your own personal machine (most of the time of an animation load is spent loading the models/ textures involved- not the actual animation sequence). Now we have established what a " really beefy rig for better animations" is for.
In contrast, the NUMBER of animations available, completely depends on the time and budget for the animations. Since most people know how to rig for keyframing, that is what is most often used. However, it is the choice that takes the most time, thereby cutting down on the number of animations available (ie death animations, for topic purposes). Some have recently started using a motion capture camera setup, which is hugely expensive, but well worth it, I think. By using motion capture and real actors, the skeleton is derived straight from the animation file, and can then be directly attached to the character rig. See that actor hold a weapon realistically on camera, and you see your character model do the exact same thing. In fact, the ONLY drawback to motion capture right now, is the cost of the equipment and the actors. In my opinion though, if you are aiming for a AAA title, the equipment should be factored into your budget anyways these days. It will most often not only pay for itself in the first title, but you can indeed use the equipment for subsequent titles, thereby bringing much more value.
Then you have the new Havoc engine that games like Requiem: Bloodymare uses. While giving "super-realistic" ragdoll physics, the rigging is considerably different for that engine. Not many animators today really are comfortable yet with it, but we are all learning. This is a really cheap way of getting nearly infinet "death animations", as well as "falling", and so forth. Expect to see this engine put to far more use in the near future, as studios learn how to use it.
My personal opinion, being a cinematix affectionado, is to use both motion capture for the "stale animations" like sword swinging, emotes, running, stuff like that- and use Havoc for that bloody goodness at the end of life, whether a 10 ft tall Minotaur throws you, or you get cleaved in half and your arm chucked 20 paces away. I expect studios to soon be using both of these methods, in far more popularity, to address the problem.
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Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide
Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift
Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
--
--
"Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
"My personal opinion, being a cinematix affectionado, is to use both motion capture for the "stale animations" like sword swinging, emotes, running, stuff like that- and use Havoc for that bloody goodness at the end of life, whether a 10 ft tall Minotaur throws you, or you get cleaved in half and your arm chucked 20 paces away. I expect studios to soon be using both of these methods, in far more popularity, to address the problem."
It depends on how complex your game is, sometimes you have to use a mixture or use simple animations so that its just easier for the programmers to actually get the animations into the game without it looking ridiculous, Empire Total War is an example, they did motion capture for all the infantry fighting apparently and while yeah the animations themselves look cool, very rarely do the weapons and characters actually meet so they either end up going through each other when they shouldn't or they just fight thin air because of the way the game was coded.
Sometimes its better to have quite simple animations and actually intergrate it into the game directly so that when you click that button you do that strike in that direction as opposed to doing fancy spinny spinny swordfighting and end up just fighting thin air. Pre-Cu SWG did the animations great but it ended up actually looking rather silly because very rarely did the animations actually play in a realistic fashion because people were just too busy spamming combat skills at each other.
You've also got to bare in mind that motion capture is apparently far more difficult to do than just doing some sequences in a 3D software and even then I wouldn't touch animation with a ten foot pole because the idea of key-framing just drives me insane.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
People always ask to choose one or the other like do you want Gameplay or Graphics? I say I need it all to come together bercause if theres one thing that bothers me then it'll get on my nerves the whole time playing and just put me off. If the PVP isn't good then I wont want to play it and if the graphics arn't good then I don't want to explore and if the animations are crappy then I wont enjoy combat.
It all needs to be good and thats why WoW is so popular because it does so much spot on where as other mmorpgs make you choose.
only 1 good reason we compromise witht he graphics these days its not like going out and buying a xbox360 and a brand new game
these days you need a almost brand new pc with top notch graphics cards to play anything so a xbox360 $199 + game out the door
brand new gaming laptop / desktop with 3+ GHz and ndivia graphics or ATI graphics cards with 2 gig + of ddr3 ram will run u in a couple
1,000's i mean would you rather buy a 200 - 300 $ gameing system to play new games and a basic older pc to run online games insted of spending money your dont have on expensive shyt that will be out dated in no time the way games and their graphics are?
im not rich i could barly afford a xbox360 and my laptop is over 5 years old and i cant play half the games online that i want b ecause they require more advanced graphics and memory that my laptop has but look at te xbox360 the system is like what 3-4 maybe 5 years old since it came out and still not outdates its kinda annoying how pc's get outdatd faster than gaming systems and gaming systems are cheaper
thats all i have to say
"It all needs to be good and thats why WoW is so popular because it does so much spot on where as other mmorpgs make you choose."
Anyone who's done their research knows that the reason WoW was a success was because of Blizzards massive marketing campaign and the fact they already had a massive franchise which automatically gives you a playerbase. Gameplay wise it doesn't really offer anything that other MMORPGs haven't already offered except they made it far more easier for people to level up etc. in fact I don't know why I'm even saying this because I just know I'm going to be ignored anyway as a lot of players here aren't interested in facts and just want stirred up drama which must be why the Darkfall forums are currently the most ridiculously active.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
While I am sure neither of those things hurt Blizzard, I'd say the biggest reason it got so huge is that they executed things so well and simply for a general audience.
Too many MMOs require a book and a spreadsheet for someone new to the genre to figure out. WoW distilled that perfectly and, somewhat paradoxically to this article, did it in a way that looked good on a large range of PCs.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Oh yes I agree what kept and still keeps the subscribers is how simple and solid the game is, in fact thats what it usually takes just to get me to at least try a game, but what got the millions was the fact that they actually reached out to people in the real world rather than just spam advertisements across the internet, I'm sure even if you were in an area that they weren't focusing on you would have at least noticed the odd bus ad or advertisement in a game store, I know I did. People who use the internet have likely gotten into games so they're probably going to be on the lookout for a game anyway for the most part.
Current MMORPGs aren't necessarily complex, far from it, they're bloody simple the repeated grinding for levels and all the gear and statistics just give the illusion of complexity and most people just simply don't think in that way so it seems unnatural to them.
Its the same with me, I love games like Mirror's Edge but when I pick up an MMO now its just utterly boring because all it is really is just a bunch of numbers flashing up on the screen, they don't even attempt to entertain me with flashy animations which would at least keep things interesting.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
Understood. I got the sense from the other comments that some people were misconstruing possibilities. Yeah, ragdoll and current "PhysX" should 100% be in every mmo made henceforth. This and similar measures I agree with.
Don't worry, I do trust you.
I see your concern and I would also be very happy to have nice animations.
Even there is so much to be enhanced or simply fixed in MMO that animations are far behind in the list. At least in my book.
Now can studios afford doing nice animations along with the rest. Could be but all is a matter of choice. And contrary to FPS animations aren't the main concern in MMO so far.
"Now can studios afford doing nice animations along with the rest. Could be but all is a matter of choice. And contrary to FPS animations aren't the main concern in MMO so far."
Just to correct you there, animators get paid just about the same as 3D Modellers but of course it purely depends on the personality of the company, most of it is down to either deadlines or just outright laziness and frankly a lot of the time I have found it is more due to laziness than actually having a problem implementing proper animations in the game.
Quoting people doesn't make you clever, in fact, it makes you all the more stupid for not bothering to read the quotes you post in the first place.
True, but a AAA MMO is monstrously complex in and of itself. I am not talking about games where some guy is running it from a few basements, I am talking big studio fare. With recent releases of 3ds Max and Maya, we have integrated object collision, which should also stop the problems stated above. Also, I agree that the programmers need to make sure it works in the right instance. However, choosing between a motion captured file, and a key-framed file to insert in the code, does not make a difference. Once the captured file is attached to a skeleton, and the skeleton to the model, along with supporting texture maps, it doesn't care what file type originated the animation, be it captured, keyed, or even Havoced. Even Havoced at that point, will just load the animation parameters into its engine and get the end result. Not as much control over it (unless you are OCD about it), but it really doesn't require much, if at all,special coding on the programmers part to distinguish between the three.
The great thing about motion capture, is it generates its own key frames. You don't have to move/rotate a pinky finger in to a new XYZ rotation! Capture ball has already done that to the skeleton you built and attached the file to. Now just put that skeleton on the rigged model, and away it goes! I hate key framing as much as anyone else. It is sadistic work, keyframing. But it seems that is still the focus in school these days. Not slamming the technique by any means, as I use it myself- but there are more effecient ways to do the same thing, with better results. So any enhancement that can get us away from that, I am all for. If you have ever had the chance to work between the two animation types, I guarantee you will prefer motion captured over spending days for one keyframed sequence!
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Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide
Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift
Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
--
--
"Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
Trust me, at no point would I rather have pretty animations than a good game. However, for a major studio, this is not an either/or proposition. Saying "we chose to concentrate on good content rather than good animations" is just code for saying "designers cost less to hire than animators."
Dana, im so glad u said that. I grt so tired of people on these forums acting like there can only be one or the other. Why cant we have new updated graphics and a good content based game at the same time....
Out of the ones I've played "the Matrix online" had some pretty unique combat.
DDO has fantastic animation and landscapes.
Most games suffer from the animation dance during combat. SWTOR may break out of this.
The Old Timer's Guild DDO Chapter Leader
I am with the OP 100%. Why dont a sword stabb stop when you hit?
Bioware are using motions suits now for their animations, that will probably make things better but it really sucks that they use 10 years old animations in the latest games.
The combat doesnt look the least bit real and it should today with modern graphics.
Congratulations on your article.
It really points a valid point and the reason which it took so long to be brought should be basically the reason why it hasn't changed - people haven't asked for that.
At least for me, I never paid much attention to animation, but thanks to this read I started to pay more attention and see how pathethic animations relatively are when compared to the graphical evolution of MMOs, you could even say it has received no progression. In my case it's because I'm pretty much outdated outside the MMO genre, so I don't have that "neighbor's greener grass" to envy.
Still, the reason it has not changed is because customers haven't talked much about it - so hopefully your article will make people talk and ask for it.
This is essentially important for the growth of the MMO genre to make it compete with other genres and absorb players from them, so MMOs can go on on their quest to dominate the world in a true Matrix (haha).
I generally agree with the article.
Even if we don't animate every single different type of trauma animation, we could at least get some groups of such. For example, why not have a different animation based on the type of attack?
Melee hit = grab chest and stagger a bit
Melee block/parry = attacker's weapon seems to "bounce" from the target, who swings weapon/shield to the side
Dodge = target hops back and/or sidesteps a noticable bit, then goes back to a neutral position
Ranged DD hit = stagger back a step or two
DOT / AOE = go to one knee for a moment, maybe stagger in random direction one step
These are just some ideas. The point is that even if we don't try to animate a perfectly realistic sequence to everything that hits a model, maybe we can just compromise for now on slightly more realistic hit animations.
Too bad they cancelled Gods and Heroes, google that for some sweet animation videos.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/You know, I can at least understand why we don't have more variety of animations to match every hit location or death event. You could make hundreds of highly specific animations and still wish you could have more.
However, what is inexcusable is the largely mediocre to poor quality of existing character animations in most MMORPGs today. Quality does vary. You'll definitely notice the difference when you play a game with good animation, then play one where it's lacking.
It seems to come down to three things; time, money and talent. You really need all three to get things right, but a huge focus on talent. Talented animators can do more with in time and monetary budgets. Even for really good animators, it's about having the time to tweak animations until they are just right. I've animated 3D humans for short clips of CGI video and I know the rough animations are less than half the fight, the fine tuning is what takes time, but pays the highest dividends.
The thing is, the extra effort is worth it. Players, when turning away from a game they went into with high hopes, actually DO often cite poor animations as a common element in what turned them off to a title. Great animations won't save a game with troubles elsewhere, but poor animations can be the tipping point when someone is on the fence about a decent, or even good game.
It's also something people will notice right away during that crucial first impressions phase. I can think of two titles I've played where the horrible animations actually precluded me from giving those games a fair shake. And a couple where the lackluster animations contributed to me leaving games I might otherwise have stuck with.
There really is no excuse for lack of quality in animations we see in most MMORPGs today.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
To those complaining about the availability of top notch graphics/ animations vs 10 year old techniques, have to understand a few things. The pc market recieved it's first real "next-gen" turn over only a couple of years ago. It was only then that enough pcs, with the capabilities, had propagated the market to an extent worthy of trying to implement next gen graphics/ animations. Now some studios have jumped on it, Funcom being one. Cryptic as I understand it, has recently as well as Star Vault, and CCP. You have to understand, that your technique of animation, determines how the models are to be rigged, and thusly sometimes the models themselves. It is little doubt this is one reason it has taken years of development for an artist team to pull together all the required art/ animation for a top notch game, in the past. Also, it has only been within the last few years that Autodesk has made certain functions, like object collision and Havoc rigging/ motion capture of lower end models, a real possible alternative. I dare say, all games made today, use one of Autodesk's various products to accomplish the task, and thereby all studios are at the mercy of their artist's ability to navigate their <frustrating> programs for the best solutions.
Now understand, this only came about in the last few years, I mean probably trully the last three. Since many mmos to be released this year and next, probably got their production start around that time, it is sufficient to say that many of them will likely include the new animating techniques, and thusly more animations and at a better quality. In fact, I would conclude that the ones that choose NOT to include it, either began before this timeframe, or lacked the knowledge of how to use them in their own pipeline at the start.
Bare in mind though, that unless the game is getting a graphical overhaul, any expansions typically use the older techniques that the original game was based on. This is why WOTLK hasnt gotten better character models/ animations, as well as LOTRO, even though both put out expansions this year.
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Tried- L2, Ryzom, WAR, DDO, PWI, Tab Rasa, Requiem, Champs, AA, JD, PWI, SUN, Dawntide
Played- SWG (pre-cu), AoC, VG, WoW, LoTRO,CoX, EQ2, DAOC, GW, PotBS, Aion, MO,APB, NASA, Fallen Earth, DCUO, Rift
Playing- EVE, Black Prophecy, TOR
Waiting for- Tera, Jumpgate Evo, WH40K, WWE, WOD, TSW
--
--
"Hey, if Activision liked it, then they should have put a ring on it," Double Fine President Tim Schafer said. "Oh great, now Beyonce is going to sue me too."
To real rpg'ers graphics never meant sh--. ok, i played temple of apshai on the commodore 64, and it knocked my sox off for about two weeks when i was 13 years old. All the older mmo crowd wanted was a computer version of D&D, and WoW is as close as it gets right now. The cartoon graphics are endearing. We like it. The closer computer animated graphics get to "realism" the less interested I am.
When I read the forums on this godforsaken website, most of them have to do with complaints concerning the lack of good, new, emersive, all enveloping mmorpg's. People like Wow or people like Eve. Warhammer and Conan are still too young for any of the mmo addicts to accept. What really matters is a break. Take a couple months off, meth head.
You play Wow for a few years and you realize that there is always some dumb mofo that has better gear than you. There is always someone who kicks your ass. It sucks, but that is what an mmo really is, competition. We LOVE competing. Even on PvE realms.
As soon as I can muster up enough dough to get a new comp, I will get WAR. Wow let me keep my little 128M graphic card without having to worry about an upgrade for years. Like I said, graphics don't mean sh. Beating the crap out of some other toon is what rocks my boat. ---Props to darkfall for having full loot, even if the game is a knocked off, half-ass'ed morrowind clone, full looting adds some real meaning to the term RRRRRRRAAAAAAAPPPPPPPEEEE!