Yes, but people are using the stats 1:1, and that is not right. Using your argument, I can say the figures represent 0.001% of the subs, but I would be wrong. It is a fraction, which is correct. Officers do not and never will represent 100% playerbase, or even close to it. If you cannot see this, I am afraid I will leave it there. I do not give figures (except my own guild and those published for pilots) but say a fraction, which could be 1/1000th or 999/1000th. I am not speculating on figures, because I give none. Others do, I am just pointing out that it is not a viable argument to use the figures given in this way.
I understand what you are saying...but those who use the fraction argument often use it to point that the sub population is much larger than what it actually is. Badger is certainly guilty of that in the past.
As I have stated GCW stats are simply one indicator of many. The OP was using the GCW stats in conjuction with the chapter 6 update and looking forward noting the drop in officer numbers. Is it 100% accurate of subs? No. But one can use their eyes and see the parallels with what they see ingame to what that chart shows and see that it reflects a drop.
Fulham you are doing exactly what Badger is doing. You claim the stats cannot be used to determine the overall population and then in the same breath you make a claim that only a fraction of the population is involved in the pvp.
To make that claim you would have to know what the overall population of the game in comparison to how many officers there are. It is no different than what others are doing.
Your frame of reference is no better either. You are basing your claims as somehow valid due to a frame of reference with your interaction spread across 4 servers with as many guilds. Ok, so you play on four servers and have a passing observation about officer, do you have any counts to back up your claims?
You say only a fraction of players enjoy pvp or are officers, so what fraction is it? Lets multiply that by the number of officers each server has and see how big the population is. What fraction of the population is the 1,000 officers on flurry? How small of a fraction is it? 5%=20,000 players, 10%=10,000 players, 20%=5,000 players? Lets put your claim to the test shall we?
Do you see now where you are infering the same thing while you try to deny it is possible when someone else is doing it?
This is the same deflection people were using prior to the mergers where they claimed there was no reason to hang around cities anymore and everyone was out playing and in no way relates to how dead the game is. Now that the servers are merged, there is a sudden "explosion" of players all hanging around in the cities and it is somehow proof that the game is thriving.
I don't know any other ways to explain this. You obviously have something set in your head and refuse to see anything else. You compare apples with oranges I'm afraid. The officer stats do not represent what the population is on a server period. If you cannot see this, I can't help you. I do not have any figures to give you but neither do you, you can suppose all you want, all I am saying is it is not accurate. Saying officers=population is not the same as saying only a fraction are in the officer ranks. One is a definite statement and one is indefinite.
Officer pop + y = total pop. We don't know y and knowing SOE, never will. So please do not have a tirade at me, because you don't understand what I'm getting at.
I don't know any other ways to explain this. You obviously have something set in your head and refuse to see anything else. You compare apples with oranges I'm afraid. The officer stats do not represent what the population is on a server period. If you cannot see this, I can't help you. I do not have any figures to give you but neither do you, you can suppose all you want, all I am saying is it is not accurate. Saying officers=population is not the same as saying only a fraction are in the officer ranks. One is a definite statement and one is indefinite. Officer pop + y = total pop. We don't know y and knowing SOE, never will. So please do not have a tirade at me, because you don't understand what I'm getting at.
I am not saying that you can point to the officer stats and determine the population. We are both in agreement on that. My questions about using your claims was being facetious to make a point which maybe you did not understand. Sorry if I was not clear and if it came across as a tirade, because it is anything but that. It is hard to read someones tone on the interwebz, so my appologies if it sounds that way.
So To be clear, we don't know what the ratio of officers to non-officers is (we both agree on that), but you are making a claim that non-officers ratio makes up the bulk of the playerbase and you really have no data to point to. Therefor it is just as "impossible" for you to claim to know that the fraction of non-officers makes up a much larger percentage of the players base as someone who using the number of officers to determine over all population. They are just mirror opposite ways of looking at the data in an attempt to make unkown data look favorable towards your opinions.
10,000 officers + X non-officers = Y population
If someone can't figure out the value of X & Y by looking at 10,000, then how can someone look at the unknown value of X and determine what percentage of Y is made up by the 10,000 officers.
When you make claims about what fraction of the overall population is made up by officers you are in fact making a claim that those numbers can be used to determine overall population, because it makes the equation solvable.
10,000 officers + [ 10,000 * (100 / your percentage) ] = Y population
for example if you think officers only make up 13% of the playerbase.
While the GCW Officers are not an exact science on determining the total population numbers, they are able to be used as trends. Fisher was pointing out that at C6CD the GCW numbers were over 12K and now they are at 8K. Badgers graph shows the decline, after the new wears off of C6CD, and continues on the downward spiral. The "trend" there, shows a 1/3 loss in population since C6CD.
The in-game population, on the last population thread I'd seen, is a little more drastic than the GCW numbers. The latest "estimates" that most of the in-game people had, were around 20K to 30K total population, at that point in time. Smedley released, in an interview at the time of C6CD launch, that SWG had 100K current subs. If the people that are playing are correct in their estimates, that would show a 70% to 80% loss of population in SWG since C6CD and is pretty close to the population loss, percentage wise, that NGE brought with it, also.
Regardless of the actual numbers, it's is pretty easy to conclude that major game CHANGES effect SWG population.
It still makes me chuckle everytime you post that.
Maybe you should campaign for SoE to release Post NGE/Pre Chapter 6 servers, just for you.
I can not take credit for the term C6 Combat downgrade. It was made by another player who was fed up with CHANGES on the 2 threads that existed when SOE "asked" for feedback. They had the same effect that feedback requests had at NGE (I'm told). SOE doesn't want to hear anything, or won't hear anything, except from the fan-bois that say they can do no wrong.
Certainly, if SOE does not have the business fortitude to put up pre-NGE servers to gain back a % of the 300,000 players they had, and lost, with NGE, I doubt they'd put up pre-C6CD servers to gain back some of the 70 - 80 K people they lost at C6CD. Your campaign to CHANGE the game , yet again, and SOE's complete and utter stupidity is now complete. Enjoy the current population, Badger? BTW, Fisher and I, told you and SOE so. Sorry, just had to get that in. Concurs with the OP.
You very well know that I agree with you on all the AFK crap that SOE has installed in SWG. But, again, SOE installs punitive measures on ATK players with the demise of fast spawns that have been in game since, forever, makeing AFK the only way to get quanities of junk loot. Again, your campaign and SOE's stupidity. Base busts are another in a long line of CHANGES that effect the status quo. When you have a complete profession designed around PVE, and not PVP, is it really good design to "take-out" the PVE way of GCW? I know, you couldn't care less about LS jedi, anyway.
I've moved on. 1 too many CHANGES for me. I'm in AoC until ST:O launches and I really don't miss SWG, anymore. It's like something finally clicks and then you're done. I hope that someday, you get the game CHANGES that your looking for. As far as I'm concerned, you can have it and CHANGE it anyway you can get and want. I don't wish the demise of the game for you or any other player that currently enjoys it. However, SOE will probably take care of that all by themselves, anyway.
It is posts, here, on the refuge forums, from Arc and others, saying how Cryptic has handled games, that makes me look forward to ST:O so much.
The "C6" downgrade made stuff harder to kill, however since then people that actually play the game have MUCH better equipment and revamped skills so it's pretty close to how it was before C6.
And with todays release of GU10 and the new battlefields you will see a HUGE increase in PvP, I just finished 4 of them (each takes 15 min when you are inside), I got 32,000 GCW points 125 kills. Since the GCW needed to maintain general is now at 12K, every one that does just 1 or 2 battlefields a week will be ranking up quickly.
New Statistics posted on the O-boards via HanseSOE;
Developer
Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
Offline
I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.
Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)
The total participation is more in line with the GCW numbers. (Alts?) I would assume 24 hours and counting all servers. You all who still play, who you know that didn't try the battle fields the 1st day? Wonder what kind of total population this would reflect?
Imo the problem is that SOE management thinks they know what they're doing. They seem to rely on their own judgement and/or bad market research to make important decisions, and completely ignore the people that know the game the best. ....snip.... It seems that every time SOE does something to alienate their players, they also then seem to think that they've actually made them happy. Maybe they think they know how people feel better than the people themselves. Wouldn't surprise me. Do the people making these decisions see how it seems they are making the same type of mistake over and over and over again? Tbh, I don't think they do. If they did, you'd think the pattern would stop, but I haven't seen anything remarkable in this regard yet.
Amen to that! There's one thing you did not include:
At the end of the beta, the exact same thing happened. SOE announced they were going to launch the game within a month, completely out of the blue. We all BEGGED them not to do it since the game was obviously not finished, too many bugs were still present, professions not finished (think smuggler, BH and others). Lots of really fun elements were taken out (too many to list), and they launched anyway.
Then, with every "fix", they either broke more than they fixed or downgraded parts of the game. The last thing they did however, was listen to the player base.
I'll keep saying it: this game could have been one of the best out there if they would have only stuck to fixing and finishing what had to be fixed and finished. If you take SWG shortly after launch, but bug free and polished, you'd have one of the best games out there that would have been able to compete with other larger names in the MMO world. But since every fix was also a "going from one extreme to another", this ticked people off as well. If something was done at 2 (on a schale of 10) and people said it had to be more towards 5, SOE changed it to 9.
Lets face it, SOE is really one of the worst companies out there. Both business wise and as far as professionalism is concerned. I for one am glad I don't have them on my CV, because I'd be embarressed to death to have worked there in the first place. Really, how business ignorant can a company possibly be?
It's a shame, but I really wouldn't count on any changes there. Obviously this is their company culture, and that is very hard to change unless you fire all those that feed that culture (which is probably 80% of staff).
I mean, I have read blogs of former programmers who appologize, but in the end are convinced that they did a great job, despite the screw ups. I was apalled. Since when is screwing up something the same as doing a great job? With that kind of a mentality one will never deliver quality in any business. "I'm sorry mam, I really messed up this product, but since I really put a lot of effort into messing it up, it is really good in reality. So I'm just charging you as much as one would for a good quality product, even though this is junk." C'mon, I cannot believe that anyone involved with SWG can find any excuse for the mess they either created or maintained without ever doing a thing about it.
All we can do is hope that one day someone makes a game based upon similar concepts and who does do a good job at it, instead of completely ruining it.
While the GCW Officers are not an exact science on determining the total population numbers, they are able to be used as trends. Fisher was pointing out that at C6CD the GCW numbers were over 12K and now they are at 8K. Badgers graph shows the decline, after the new wears off of C6CD, and continues on the downward spiral. The "trend" there, shows a 1/3 loss in population since C6CD. The in-game population, on the last population thread I'd seen, is a little more drastic than the GCW numbers. The latest "estimates" that most of the in-game people had, were around 20K to 30K total population, at that point in time. Smedley released, in an interview at the time of C6CD launch, that SWG had 100K current subs. If the people that are playing are correct in their estimates, that would show a 70% to 80% loss of population in SWG since C6CD and is pretty close to the population loss, percentage wise, that NGE brought with it, also. Regardless of the actual numbers, it's is pretty easy to conclude that major game CHANGES effect SWG population.
We all know how much we should believe that man.... fooled me once, shame on you... you aint fooling me twice!.
With respect to the line of argument going on here regarding the "guestimates" and who understands and who doesnt understand what the most. It reminds me of the old post about "Lemonade stand + SOE". On one side of the argument people got it. On the other they didnt get it and would never get it. To back that up, the only reason why the game is still going is people went back for more of whatever they call Lemonade over at SOE. Creating the disparity between experiences old and new.
Meaning the changes and problems leave the target audience (people who love SWG) argue with each other whilst the game goes down the pan due to creating conflict of experience.
To defend the OP and position of argument. If there are no other reference figures available to start from then that can only mean that any FACTUAL figures found have to be the first point a reference can be started from. If anybody disagrees with that then supply another point of reference but using the thinking below.
FACT & Historical/Recorded figures are not the same as an OPINION & Experiences.
In this thread FACT was used to create OPINION not OPINION creates FACT. We all agree that those FACTS may be off HOWEVER they have more TRUTH then "i saw a whole XXX players in my house within 2 mins of logging on and the game is so full etc etc cause my m8 said so"
It would be nice if SOE finally sucked it up and announced how many people play ALL their games. If anything we may be more surprised then we expect.
/insert2penneth
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
New Statistics posted on the O-boards via HanseSOE; Developer
Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
Offline
I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.
Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)
The total participation is more in line with the GCW numbers. (Alts?) I would assume 24 hours and counting all servers. You all who still play, who you know that didn't try the battle fields the 1st day? Wonder what kind of total population this would reflect?
3,000 unique players tried out the brand new content from a new publish? How can a game with an estimated 100k players only see activity from 3% during a major content release?
I'm sure someone will come along and explain those numbers with theories about the majority of players being out in the world questing and can't be seen in battlegrounds which is why they were not counted or some other excuse.
New Statistics posted on the O-boards via HanseSOE; Developer
Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
Offline
I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.
Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)
The total participation is more in line with the GCW numbers. (Alts?) I would assume 24 hours and counting all servers. You all who still play, who you know that didn't try the battle fields the 1st day? Wonder what kind of total population this would reflect?
3,000 unique players tried out the brand new content from a new publish? How can a game with an estimated 100k players only see activity from 3% during a major content release?
I'm sure someone will come along and explain those numbers with theories about the majority of players being out in the world questing and can't be seen in battlegrounds which is why they were not counted or some other excuse.
That includes alts so let's be nice and say it's actually 2,500 people tried them.
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger.
The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals!
And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks.
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals! And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks. But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals! And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks. But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals! And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks. But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals! And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks. But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
Like I said before, it was a reaction to the OP and second poster. Which were only about the statistics and no first hand experience. I never said they claimed it to be a fact, but they used it to make an estimation about the amount of SWG subs.
Unless you conveniently assume they had more information to go over. Which makes your assumption nothing more then a guess, because they didnt mention that in the post.
I wrote:
"Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL"
You replied :
"Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?"
That just doesnt make sense as a reaction on my comment. I never wrote that you shouldnt activate a trial. Just made it sound silly if you activate a trial while you dont even like the game, but do it anyway so you can post about the game in veteran refuge.
Why cant you just read someone's post more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions like you do? Its as if you dont care what the other poster means, but instead just make up your own version of what you think he means on purpose.
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals! And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks. But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
Like I said before, it was a reaction to the OP and second poster. Which were only about the statistics and no first hand experience. I never said they claimed it to be a fact, but they used it to make an estimation about the amount of SWG subs.
Unless you conveniently assume they had more information to go over. Which makes your assumption nothing more then a guess, because they didnt mention that in the post.
I wrote:
"Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL"
You replied :
"Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?"
That just doesnt make sense as a reaction on my comment. I never wrote that you shouldnt activate a trial. Just made it sound silly if you activate a trial while you dont even like the game, but do it anyway so you can post about the game in veteran refuge.
Why cant you just read someone's post more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions like you do? Its as if you dont care what the other poster means, but instead just make up your own version of what you think he means on purpose.
They made an assumption based upon opinion. If PvP trends down is it not a realistic and reasonable hypothesis that game subscriptions may trend down as well?
As far as your trial comment...you belittled a vets reason for possibly doing the trial is all. How else should I have taken your comment? It certainly looks like you were taking a shot doesn't it?
There are several games I do not like but try anyway. Sometimes games change for the better...sometimes they don't. Why do you think SOE provides vet trials every 3 months?
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger. The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals!
Just because ranks decays doesn't mean that there are more people below the rank of officer in the slightest. As far as we know the offier ranks might make up the vast majority of people who pvp; officers, non-officers and neutrals alike.
The more importing implication would be when/why would someone lose officer rank? If someone enjoys pvp enough to carry officer rank from week to week then what is the most likely cause for them to lose that rank due to decay and stop being counted? Stop pvping or stop playing the game?
One thing that suggests there isn't a greater number of non-officers is the dev quoted above saying 3,000 unique people played in the battlefields. One would expect more people to at least look at the new content on major patch days just to see what it is like. That number doesn't even come close to the total officers being counted.
What I find even more interesting is that SWTOR's forum numbers just recently topped 150K with plenty of time to pass till launch. Seems those initial 200k +/- that dropped between CU and NGE have rebuilt the nest elsewhere.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
Interesting, true. What I find even more interesting is that SWTOR's forum numbers just recently topped 150K with plenty of time to pass till launch. Seems those initial 200k +/- that dropped between CU and NGE have rebuilt the nest elsewhere.
I dont think so, most of my freinds that I made during Pre and CU where not SW fanboys, most just wanted to play a mmo, and back then SWG was cutting edge. I kept in touch with a few, alot moved on to other mmos, some went to WOW, a few to LOTR, and AOC, they all scatterd to diffent games. The people I see on the SWTOR forums look like Bio-ware and KOTOR fanboys, very little SWG players. Go to any mmo forum and you can search out SWG players, most start a thread with "are their any old SWG players here?" Youd be suprised by how many respond to yes.
SWTOR will be a fun RP single player game, but its MMO light and will only be a mmo in towns where you can duel other players, they might add in a battlefeild but its not a true multiplayer game. One thing I learned lately is that the game will be almost old school Pre-cu combat, its going to be a turn based animation combat system like we used to have in SWG. Im sure it will have things we didnt have but it will be like the old combat system in SWG.
The "C6" downgrade made stuff harder to kill, however since then people that actually play the game have MUCH better equipment and revamped skills so it's pretty close to how it was before C6. And with todays release of GU10 and the new battlefields you will see a HUGE increase in PvP, I just finished 4 of them (each takes 15 min when you are inside), I got 32,000 GCW points 125 kills. Since the GCW needed to maintain general is now at 12K, every one that does just 1 or 2 battlefields a week will be ranking up quickly.
With the "new" junk put in with GU-Whatevers, it's close, but not exact.
So, if your going to "downgrade" all the combat abilities (in C6CD), just to add back in those abilities a year later, along with long, long grinds for jedi to complete the "new" additions, then why do it in the 1st place? As you say, players supposedly ended up at where they were before, only with another year of development, a bunch more long grinds, or many more credits buying new guns and gear, not to mention the cost of subscription accounts in the 70 - 80 percentile range from what SOE had when they started this "new" NGE. And to add, in this "new" re-vamp, a profession, LS jedi, that are now not designed for 1/2 the end game content, (PVP), as they were before C6CD.
Why not, instead of a year just to get back to where you were, actualy come up with some "new" development? An expansion? More levels? New content? You know, something that's creative and to actualy subscribe for.
Comments
I understand what you are saying...but those who use the fraction argument often use it to point that the sub population is much larger than what it actually is. Badger is certainly guilty of that in the past.
As I have stated GCW stats are simply one indicator of many. The OP was using the GCW stats in conjuction with the chapter 6 update and looking forward noting the drop in officer numbers. Is it 100% accurate of subs? No. But one can use their eyes and see the parallels with what they see ingame to what that chart shows and see that it reflects a drop.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Fulham you are doing exactly what Badger is doing. You claim the stats cannot be used to determine the overall population and then in the same breath you make a claim that only a fraction of the population is involved in the pvp.
To make that claim you would have to know what the overall population of the game in comparison to how many officers there are. It is no different than what others are doing.
Your frame of reference is no better either. You are basing your claims as somehow valid due to a frame of reference with your interaction spread across 4 servers with as many guilds. Ok, so you play on four servers and have a passing observation about officer, do you have any counts to back up your claims?
You say only a fraction of players enjoy pvp or are officers, so what fraction is it? Lets multiply that by the number of officers each server has and see how big the population is. What fraction of the population is the 1,000 officers on flurry? How small of a fraction is it? 5%=20,000 players, 10%=10,000 players, 20%=5,000 players? Lets put your claim to the test shall we?
Do you see now where you are infering the same thing while you try to deny it is possible when someone else is doing it?
This is the same deflection people were using prior to the mergers where they claimed there was no reason to hang around cities anymore and everyone was out playing and in no way relates to how dead the game is. Now that the servers are merged, there is a sudden "explosion" of players all hanging around in the cities and it is somehow proof that the game is thriving.
I don't know any other ways to explain this. You obviously have something set in your head and refuse to see anything else. You compare apples with oranges I'm afraid. The officer stats do not represent what the population is on a server period. If you cannot see this, I can't help you. I do not have any figures to give you but neither do you, you can suppose all you want, all I am saying is it is not accurate. Saying officers=population is not the same as saying only a fraction are in the officer ranks. One is a definite statement and one is indefinite.
Officer pop + y = total pop. We don't know y and knowing SOE, never will. So please do not have a tirade at me, because you don't understand what I'm getting at.
I am not saying that you can point to the officer stats and determine the population. We are both in agreement on that. My questions about using your claims was being facetious to make a point which maybe you did not understand. Sorry if I was not clear and if it came across as a tirade, because it is anything but that. It is hard to read someones tone on the interwebz, so my appologies if it sounds that way.
So To be clear, we don't know what the ratio of officers to non-officers is (we both agree on that), but you are making a claim that non-officers ratio makes up the bulk of the playerbase and you really have no data to point to. Therefor it is just as "impossible" for you to claim to know that the fraction of non-officers makes up a much larger percentage of the players base as someone who using the number of officers to determine over all population. They are just mirror opposite ways of looking at the data in an attempt to make unkown data look favorable towards your opinions.
10,000 officers + X non-officers = Y population
If someone can't figure out the value of X & Y by looking at 10,000, then how can someone look at the unknown value of X and determine what percentage of Y is made up by the 10,000 officers.
When you make claims about what fraction of the overall population is made up by officers you are in fact making a claim that those numbers can be used to determine overall population, because it makes the equation solvable.
10,000 officers + [ 10,000 * (100 / your percentage) ] = Y population
for example if you think officers only make up 13% of the playerbase.
10,000 + [10,000 * (100 / 13)] = 86,923 players
Do you see it now?
While the GCW Officers are not an exact science on determining the total population numbers, they are able to be used as trends. Fisher was pointing out that at C6CD the GCW numbers were over 12K and now they are at 8K. Badgers graph shows the decline, after the new wears off of C6CD, and continues on the downward spiral. The "trend" there, shows a 1/3 loss in population since C6CD.
The in-game population, on the last population thread I'd seen, is a little more drastic than the GCW numbers. The latest "estimates" that most of the in-game people had, were around 20K to 30K total population, at that point in time. Smedley released, in an interview at the time of C6CD launch, that SWG had 100K current subs. If the people that are playing are correct in their estimates, that would show a 70% to 80% loss of population in SWG since C6CD and is pretty close to the population loss, percentage wise, that NGE brought with it, also.
Regardless of the actual numbers, it's is pretty easy to conclude that major game CHANGES effect SWG population.
It still makes me chuckle everytime you post that.
Maybe you should campaign for SoE to release Post NGE/Pre Chapter 6 servers, just for you.
It still makes me chuckle everytime you post that.
Maybe you should campaign for SoE to release Post NGE/Pre Chapter 6 servers, just for you.
I can not take credit for the term C6 Combat downgrade. It was made by another player who was fed up with CHANGES on the 2 threads that existed when SOE "asked" for feedback. They had the same effect that feedback requests had at NGE (I'm told). SOE doesn't want to hear anything, or won't hear anything, except from the fan-bois that say they can do no wrong.
Certainly, if SOE does not have the business fortitude to put up pre-NGE servers to gain back a % of the 300,000 players they had, and lost, with NGE, I doubt they'd put up pre-C6CD servers to gain back some of the 70 - 80 K people they lost at C6CD. Your campaign to CHANGE the game , yet again, and SOE's complete and utter stupidity is now complete. Enjoy the current population, Badger? BTW, Fisher and I, told you and SOE so. Sorry, just had to get that in. Concurs with the OP.
You very well know that I agree with you on all the AFK crap that SOE has installed in SWG. But, again, SOE installs punitive measures on ATK players with the demise of fast spawns that have been in game since, forever, makeing AFK the only way to get quanities of junk loot. Again, your campaign and SOE's stupidity. Base busts are another in a long line of CHANGES that effect the status quo. When you have a complete profession designed around PVE, and not PVP, is it really good design to "take-out" the PVE way of GCW? I know, you couldn't care less about LS jedi, anyway.
I've moved on. 1 too many CHANGES for me. I'm in AoC until ST:O launches and I really don't miss SWG, anymore. It's like something finally clicks and then you're done. I hope that someday, you get the game CHANGES that your looking for. As far as I'm concerned, you can have it and CHANGE it anyway you can get and want. I don't wish the demise of the game for you or any other player that currently enjoys it. However, SOE will probably take care of that all by themselves, anyway.
It is posts, here, on the refuge forums, from Arc and others, saying how Cryptic has handled games, that makes me look forward to ST:O so much.
The "C6" downgrade made stuff harder to kill, however since then people that actually play the game have MUCH better equipment and revamped skills so it's pretty close to how it was before C6.
And with todays release of GU10 and the new battlefields you will see a HUGE increase in PvP, I just finished 4 of them (each takes 15 min when you are inside), I got 32,000 GCW points 125 kills. Since the GCW needed to maintain general is now at 12K, every one that does just 1 or 2 battlefields a week will be ranking up quickly.
New Statistics posted on the O-boards via HanseSOE;
Developer
Joined: May 12, 2006
Messages: 1158
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I want to thank everyone that helped with battlefields. It was a lot of time, effort, and fun making them! I've gathered a few statistics for our first day for you to glance at.
Unique Players: 3004
Total Participation: 7015 (some played more than once)
The total participation is more in line with the GCW numbers. (Alts?) I would assume 24 hours and counting all servers. You all who still play, who you know that didn't try the battle fields the 1st day? Wonder what kind of total population this would reflect?
It still makes me chuckle everytime you post that.
Maybe you should campaign for SoE to release Post NGE/Pre Chapter 6 servers, just for you.
There goes Ol' badger mocking his fellow players again...nice that you chuckle that someone else's game was taken away again.
All it shows is that the DEVs learned NOTHING from the NGE. That is why they fail.
Making mistakes, not admitting them soon enough, not rectifying them, and then, ultimately, repeating them. Not a winning system.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Amen to that! There's one thing you did not include:
At the end of the beta, the exact same thing happened. SOE announced they were going to launch the game within a month, completely out of the blue. We all BEGGED them not to do it since the game was obviously not finished, too many bugs were still present, professions not finished (think smuggler, BH and others). Lots of really fun elements were taken out (too many to list), and they launched anyway.
Then, with every "fix", they either broke more than they fixed or downgraded parts of the game. The last thing they did however, was listen to the player base.
I'll keep saying it: this game could have been one of the best out there if they would have only stuck to fixing and finishing what had to be fixed and finished. If you take SWG shortly after launch, but bug free and polished, you'd have one of the best games out there that would have been able to compete with other larger names in the MMO world. But since every fix was also a "going from one extreme to another", this ticked people off as well. If something was done at 2 (on a schale of 10) and people said it had to be more towards 5, SOE changed it to 9.
Lets face it, SOE is really one of the worst companies out there. Both business wise and as far as professionalism is concerned. I for one am glad I don't have them on my CV, because I'd be embarressed to death to have worked there in the first place. Really, how business ignorant can a company possibly be?
It's a shame, but I really wouldn't count on any changes there. Obviously this is their company culture, and that is very hard to change unless you fire all those that feed that culture (which is probably 80% of staff).
I mean, I have read blogs of former programmers who appologize, but in the end are convinced that they did a great job, despite the screw ups. I was apalled. Since when is screwing up something the same as doing a great job? With that kind of a mentality one will never deliver quality in any business. "I'm sorry mam, I really messed up this product, but since I really put a lot of effort into messing it up, it is really good in reality. So I'm just charging you as much as one would for a good quality product, even though this is junk." C'mon, I cannot believe that anyone involved with SWG can find any excuse for the mess they either created or maintained without ever doing a thing about it.
All we can do is hope that one day someone makes a game based upon similar concepts and who does do a good job at it, instead of completely ruining it.
We all know how much we should believe that man.... fooled me once, shame on you... you aint fooling me twice!.
With respect to the line of argument going on here regarding the "guestimates" and who understands and who doesnt understand what the most. It reminds me of the old post about "Lemonade stand + SOE". On one side of the argument people got it. On the other they didnt get it and would never get it. To back that up, the only reason why the game is still going is people went back for more of whatever they call Lemonade over at SOE. Creating the disparity between experiences old and new.
Meaning the changes and problems leave the target audience (people who love SWG) argue with each other whilst the game goes down the pan due to creating conflict of experience.
To defend the OP and position of argument. If there are no other reference figures available to start from then that can only mean that any FACTUAL figures found have to be the first point a reference can be started from. If anybody disagrees with that then supply another point of reference but using the thinking below.
FACT & Historical/Recorded figures are not the same as an OPINION & Experiences.
In this thread FACT was used to create OPINION not OPINION creates FACT. We all agree that those FACTS may be off HOWEVER they have more TRUTH then "i saw a whole XXX players in my house within 2 mins of logging on and the game is so full etc etc cause my m8 said so"
It would be nice if SOE finally sucked it up and announced how many people play ALL their games. If anything we may be more surprised then we expect.
/insert2penneth
"Obi-Wan Kenobi: We were decieved by a lie; we all were. It appears that SOE is behind everything, including the NGE! After the death of CU, the NGE became their new apprentice."
3,000 unique players tried out the brand new content from a new publish? How can a game with an estimated 100k players only see activity from 3% during a major content release?
I'm sure someone will come along and explain those numbers with theories about the majority of players being out in the world questing and can't be seen in battlegrounds which is why they were not counted or some other excuse.
3,000 unique players tried out the brand new content from a new publish? How can a game with an estimated 100k players only see activity from 3% during a major content release?
I'm sure someone will come along and explain those numbers with theories about the majority of players being out in the world questing and can't be seen in battlegrounds which is why they were not counted or some other excuse.
That includes alts so let's be nice and say it's actually 2,500 people tried them.
is there an incentive to do the battlefields with alts, like badges or items and whatnot?
I think some ppl here forgot about GCW rank decay, which starts at the officer ranks. The amount needed each week is too large to counter without PVP or serious spacecombat grind. This already implies that the actual toons with a rank below officer is larger.
The OP doesnt mention rank decay or even the obvious non ranked players, the neutrals!
And as last. If you are not playing the game atm, then your cant estimate as well as the players who actually log in and get a feeling of how many players are actually interested in GCW ranks.
But go ahead, start nitpicking on this.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
Like I said before, it was a reaction to the OP and second poster. Which were only about the statistics and no first hand experience. I never said they claimed it to be a fact, but they used it to make an estimation about the amount of SWG subs.
Unless you conveniently assume they had more information to go over. Which makes your assumption nothing more then a guess, because they didnt mention that in the post.
I wrote:
"Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL"
You replied :
"Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?"
That just doesnt make sense as a reaction on my comment. I never wrote that you shouldnt activate a trial. Just made it sound silly if you activate a trial while you dont even like the game, but do it anyway so you can post about the game in veteran refuge.
Why cant you just read someone's post more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions like you do? Its as if you dont care what the other poster means, but instead just make up your own version of what you think he means on purpose.
Why make excuses? The stats show a declining trend in officer participation in GCW/PvP with each update. Does that show a decline in NGE subscribers? Perhaps yes...Perhaps no. It is only one indicator.
Many critics have played SWG and some still do. It is easy to activiate a trial and scope things out and see for themselves.
Excuses? I didnt do anything wrong, so why would I make excuses? I only pointed out the logical flaw in the OP's and second poster's reasoning. The only conclusion that I came up with is that those statistics dont provide enough info to estimate subs.
Im not here to defend SWG, I just cant stand stupid reasoning with as goal being negative. No matter what the subject is. I just limit myself to reacting on games I find interesting, to prevent having to post all day to pick apart stupid assumptions here on MMORPG.com.
Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL
Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?
Again...all the these stats show is a downward trend. Nothing more...nothing less. These stats taken with personal observation and comments from current players as well as other stats and information provided one can form an informed opinion. Doesn't make it fact.
Like I said before, it was a reaction to the OP and second poster. Which were only about the statistics and no first hand experience. I never said they claimed it to be a fact, but they used it to make an estimation about the amount of SWG subs.
Unless you conveniently assume they had more information to go over. Which makes your assumption nothing more then a guess, because they didnt mention that in the post.
I wrote:
"Activite a trial and scope things so to post here in veteran refuge? LOL"
You replied :
"Why would one not check the game out? Is that not what the trials are for?"
That just doesnt make sense as a reaction on my comment. I never wrote that you shouldnt activate a trial. Just made it sound silly if you activate a trial while you dont even like the game, but do it anyway so you can post about the game in veteran refuge.
Why cant you just read someone's post more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions like you do? Its as if you dont care what the other poster means, but instead just make up your own version of what you think he means on purpose.
They made an assumption based upon opinion. If PvP trends down is it not a realistic and reasonable hypothesis that game subscriptions may trend down as well?
As far as your trial comment...you belittled a vets reason for possibly doing the trial is all. How else should I have taken your comment? It certainly looks like you were taking a shot doesn't it?
There are several games I do not like but try anyway. Sometimes games change for the better...sometimes they don't. Why do you think SOE provides vet trials every 3 months?
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Ten Golden Rules Of Videogame Fanboyism
"SOE has probably united more gamers in hatred than Blizzard has subs"...daelnor
Just because ranks decays doesn't mean that there are more people below the rank of officer in the slightest. As far as we know the offier ranks might make up the vast majority of people who pvp; officers, non-officers and neutrals alike.
The more importing implication would be when/why would someone lose officer rank? If someone enjoys pvp enough to carry officer rank from week to week then what is the most likely cause for them to lose that rank due to decay and stop being counted? Stop pvping or stop playing the game?
One thing that suggests there isn't a greater number of non-officers is the dev quoted above saying 3,000 unique people played in the battlefields. One would expect more people to at least look at the new content on major patch days just to see what it is like. That number doesn't even come close to the total officers being counted.
Interesting, true.
What I find even more interesting is that SWTOR's forum numbers just recently topped 150K with plenty of time to pass till launch. Seems those initial 200k +/- that dropped between CU and NGE have rebuilt the nest elsewhere.
Yes, I have anger issues. They taste like chocolate bunnies.
I dont think so, most of my freinds that I made during Pre and CU where not SW fanboys, most just wanted to play a mmo, and back then SWG was cutting edge. I kept in touch with a few, alot moved on to other mmos, some went to WOW, a few to LOTR, and AOC, they all scatterd to diffent games. The people I see on the SWTOR forums look like Bio-ware and KOTOR fanboys, very little SWG players. Go to any mmo forum and you can search out SWG players, most start a thread with "are their any old SWG players here?" Youd be suprised by how many respond to yes.
SWTOR will be a fun RP single player game, but its MMO light and will only be a mmo in towns where you can duel other players, they might add in a battlefeild but its not a true multiplayer game. One thing I learned lately is that the game will be almost old school Pre-cu combat, its going to be a turn based animation combat system like we used to have in SWG. Im sure it will have things we didnt have but it will be like the old combat system in SWG.
With the "new" junk put in with GU-Whatevers, it's close, but not exact.
So, if your going to "downgrade" all the combat abilities (in C6CD), just to add back in those abilities a year later, along with long, long grinds for jedi to complete the "new" additions, then why do it in the 1st place? As you say, players supposedly ended up at where they were before, only with another year of development, a bunch more long grinds, or many more credits buying new guns and gear, not to mention the cost of subscription accounts in the 70 - 80 percentile range from what SOE had when they started this "new" NGE. And to add, in this "new" re-vamp, a profession, LS jedi, that are now not designed for 1/2 the end game content, (PVP), as they were before C6CD.
Why not, instead of a year just to get back to where you were, actualy come up with some "new" development? An expansion? More levels? New content? You know, something that's creative and to actualy subscribe for.