i think you are all missing the point. you just as well could have eve with lvls, where you would train a class 1-5 lvl and after you have waited x amout of time to get that lvl put the rewarded class 1-5 skill or feat point in an redicules long skill tree. of course it would be unbelievable stupid to do it that way bacause of how eves skill work. but it has nothing to do with lvls or skill based progression.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.
I don't see anything "artifical" about the divide. Just like a General is more advanced than a Private. A Jet pilot is more advanced than a person taking their first flying lesson. A Black Belt is more advanced than a White belt in Karate, etc., etc.
I don't expect the Private to fight side by side with the General, I don't expect the person with one flight less to fly with the Jet Pilots, I don't expect the White Belt to fight the Black Belt.
Progression and segregation are quite natural, not artificial.
The issue with levels in many games is that the game never really becomes more difficult, when im level 1, I fight a level 1 boar, when Im level 20, I fight a level 20 boar etc...both are just as hard for me to kill at the time and give me an amount of loot that I need at that time...sure later there are raids/bosses in some games, but if you made a raid dungeon for level 1 people it would be no more/less difficult than a level 1000 raid being done by level 1000's...anyway you get the idea. Just seems a bit pointless..I just killed the blue butterflies in area one, now i have leveled up I can kill the Level 2 green butterflies...
I think form a PvE perspective a game should get more difficult as you go, not just scale up evenly as you level and then give you the same monster with a different name tag and an extra 100 hit points. You should need to apply some of the actual skills you have learned as a player to overcome the game later on, not just equip your glowing sword and other Phat loot and then hack at whatever it is you are meant to kill and bring it down in the standard 18 seconds using the exact same combo you used at the beginning of the game (I know it sounds like I am referring to wow (and I am) but there are a heap of other games out there that do this).
I dont mind levels but not when they are a pointless attempt to give you a false sense of progression.
The issue with levels in many games is that the game never really becomes more difficult, when im level 1, I fight a level 1 boar, when Im level 20, I fight a level 20 boar etc...both are just as hard for me to kill at the time and give me an amount of loot that I need at that time...sure later there are raids/bosses in some games, but if you made a raid dungeon for level 1 people it would be no more/less difficult than a level 1000 raid being done by level 1000's...anyway you get the idea. Just seems a bit pointless..I just killed the blue butterflies in area one, now i have leveled up I can kill the Level 2 green butterflies... I think form a PvE perspective a game should get more difficult as you go, not just scale up evenly as you level and then give you the same monster with a different name tag and an extra 100 hit points. You should need to apply some of the actual skills you have learned as a player to overcome the game later on, not just equip your glowing sword and other Phat loot and then hack at whatever it is you are meant to kill and bring it down in the standard 18 seconds using the exact same combo you used at the beginning of the game (I know it sounds like I am referring to wow (and I am) but there are a heap of other games out there that do this). I dont mind levels but not when they are a pointless attempt to give you a false sense of progression.
The progression is not false, it is very real. You are expressing dissatisfaction with the art department it sounds like, rather than the game design.
I understand a blue butterfly doesn't seem like it should be inherently more powerful than a green butterfly. But this is a result of budget, and using a cheap fix, changing colors, to ad more mobs.
But you can go back and kill the blue butterflys with one wack, where they used to kill you, so it is real progression, even if the art work doesn't indicate it very well.
Leveling is part of the fun. A game without levels could be fun but then it wouldnt be a mmorpg, it would be a mmog. It can be fun but we are talking, in that case, about a diferent type of game. If you really dont like leveling, in my opinion, you dont like mmorpgs it's like wanting a cheeseburger without the meat, sure you can eat it, but it will not be a cheesebuger.
Yet a few more reaons why level systems need to go by the wayside for a while.
When you play with your guildies and you/they outlevel you. You can not play with your guildies anymore since you/they have outleveled the content you are at. The only mmo I know that seemed to remedy this was City of Heroes/Villains where you can malefactor up/down.
What I would like to call easy mode for developers is the tiered content that wraps around the leveling system. Where a wolf at level 1 is not a wolf at level 11. At any point in the game based on your level a developer knows exactly where you are going to be. This is the theme park as they like to call it as they can develop content as the players level. "Add more rides." It provides a highly controlled environment for the developers to work in. For the players it equals a highly restrictive environment.
What I like to call the diablolization for an MMO. The item/level grind, Item Randomization on drops, etc. WoW is blizzard's realization that Diablo could be turned into an MMO.
These are the reasons why I think that MMO's that try to follow blizzard's lead ussually have a shelf life of like 3 1/2 months before they reach a plateau. Nothing will be as great as the original. People lose interest fairly quickly.
For my taste, drop me in a world and let me and my guildies make a name for ourselves. I think community, pvp, being your own hero/villain, making enemies/friends, watching cities get built and destroyed is far better than the theme park mmo's where you tire from the same old rides over and over and over again.
Your assumptions are kind of ridiculous. You say WoW is an MMO where people can catch up because of new servers? Yeah, right.
It has nothing to do with new servers. People can catch up in WoW because the game is so easy even a moron could level to 80. Just follow a series of quests for a week or 2 and you are caught up. And they start DKs at 55, lmao. The only reason behind that is they didn't want to have to add quests for DK's 1-55 or whatever.
So you want everyone to have access to a same level character? I don't like that idea at all. I don't want some moron who can't play their class properly to have the same level character as me. In real fucking MMOs, like EQ, if you're retarded at playing a certain class you can't level it well. If you were a cleric and couldn't heal, good luck getting a group. Do you think I want that kind of player to have access to the same level cleric as me?
WoW sucks in that it lets newbies catch up too easily. The thing with WoW is that anyone can have any level 80 they want because the leveling system and game are both trivial. So the horrible players who suck at playing their character have no problem at getting 80 and going on raids & gearing up. I think people who suck at one class should find something their good at. If you get rid of leveling systems, you'll see a lot of newbies playing classes they can't clearly handle.
Leveling systems let you distinguish between garbage players and good players.
You act like WoW is a great success because of new servers. Well, most of WoW is leveling content you know. Anyway, in a game like WoW i think the leveling system is pointless because it consists of "Do quest A, do quest B", it's handholding and trivial. Anyone can get to 80, so the leveling system is pointless in WoW.
I can see why a WoW player would not see the point of a leveling system because of all this, but in EQ where leveling is actually challenging it has a good reason.
Random looting systems, yeah I want an asian following me around with add-ons and eating loot from my kills. Great idea, your opinons are clearly valid. I mean, especially the type of game like Diablo where you have to run back to town to go hostile on another player. But yeah imagine random looting in EQ, you can't even attack the player if you aren't on a PvP server. That's a brilliant idea, I mean i'd love not being able to kill someone who is taking all my loot and following me.
Anyway, imagine WoW without a leveling system. People would have nothing to do in that game because it sucks. The endgame is just farming the same instances over and over, which is boring after the first time. The PvP system is boring and pointless because all of the PvP in WoW is inside protected carebear instances. If you got rid of the leveling system in WoW a lot less people would play it.
Obviously, getting rid of the leveling system would reduce the player populations because they'd realize quicker that the game is boring. Anyone who backs WoW is someone who hasn't played and beaten the endgame. Once they're there they realize how bad it is.
Think of it this way. Newbies will be stuck leveling, hardcore players will plow through leveling and some will quit.
But with no leveling system, everyone can realize it sucks from day 1. I guess it might work in a game like EQ where a brain is required to play, and there is fun stuff to do at the max level. But not WoW where there is nothing to do.
If you mean the end of any kind of advancement be it levels, skills or gear then absolutely NO! And it would not be popular. The reason people play MMOs generally is to develop their character.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
Explain how levels didnt work in DnD? How do levels create disparity in a game that is custom tailored to the party availible?What community is there in a 6 person gaming group?
Your assumptions are kind of ridiculous. You say WoW is an MMO where people can catch up because of new servers? Yeah, right. It has nothing to do with new servers. People can catch up in WoW because the game is so easy even a moron could level to 80. Just follow a series of quests for a week or 2 and you are caught up. And they start DKs at 55, lmao. The only reason behind that is they didn't want to have to add quests for DK's 1-55 or whatever. So you want everyone to have access to a same level character? I don't like that idea at all. I don't want some moron who can't play their class properly to have the same level character as me. In real fucking MMOs, like EQ, if you're retarded at playing a certain class you can't level it well. If you were a cleric and couldn't heal, good luck getting a group. Do you think I want that kind of player to have access to the same level cleric as me? WoW sucks in that it lets newbies catch up too easily. The thing with WoW is that anyone can have any level 80 they want because the leveling system and game are both trivial. So the horrible players who suck at playing their character have no problem at getting 80 and going on raids & gearing up. I think people who suck at one class should find something their good at. If you get rid of leveling systems, you'll see a lot of newbies playing classes they can't clearly handle. Leveling systems let you distinguish between garbage players and good players. You act like WoW is a great success because of new servers. Well, most of WoW is leveling content you know. Anyway, in a game like WoW i think the leveling system is pointless because it consists of "Do quest A, do quest B", it's handholding and trivial. Anyone can get to 80, so the leveling system is pointless in WoW. I can see why a WoW player would not see the point of a leveling system because of all this, but in EQ where leveling is actually challenging it has a good reason.
Random looting systems, yeah I want an asian following me around with add-ons and eating loot from my kills. Great idea, your opinons are clearly valid. I mean, especially the type of game like Diablo where you have to run back to town to go hostile on another player. But yeah imagine random looting in EQ, you can't even attack the player if you aren't on a PvP server. That's a brilliant idea, I mean i'd love not being able to kill someone who is taking all my loot and following me.
Anyway, imagine WoW without a leveling system. People would have nothing to do in that game because it sucks. The endgame is just farming the same instances over and over, which is boring after the first time. The PvP system is boring and pointless because all of the PvP in WoW is inside protected carebear instances. If you got rid of the leveling system in WoW a lot less people would play it. Obviously, getting rid of the leveling system would reduce the player populations because they'd realize quicker that the game is boring. Anyone who backs WoW is someone who hasn't played and beaten the endgame. Once they're there they realize how bad it is. Think of it this way. Newbies will be stuck leveling, hardcore players will plow through leveling and some will quit. But with no leveling system, everyone can realize it sucks from day 1. I guess it might work in a game like EQ where a brain is required to play, and there is fun stuff to do at the max level. But not WoW where there is nothing to do.
My only problem with leveling is when I get friends to join the game. It ends up making everyone have to start over again. And if someone can't play for a while, they get left behind and most of the time end up quitting.
Ok, I haven't read eveything here, and I voted "yes, players should jump in and play". But I wanted to explain, because that doesn't capture what I want.
I do want some levelling or skill gain. What I don't want is a game that's built around that. And I want the differences between advanced characters and newbies to be close enough that they can live, explore, trade, and socialize with each other and next to each other.
Basically, I want a game that's built around the world, not the character. I want experiences that have to do with living in the game world, not level grinding my characters up. I want a world similuation. I want to explore and find exciting things and mysteries. I want to try to build wealth that means something, not rationed out per level. I want to trade in a world market, not a level based tier. And I want to have meaningful social relations with all the players, not just those who are currently around my "level".
And I want the game world to explode with adventure, to be vibrant with activity, and evey time I log in I want to choose between a thousand things to do, to....to... to explore strange new lands, to seek out new life and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no toon has gone before!
Threads like these make me wish it was a standard feature in forums to be able to post in a thread *without* bumping it to the top of a forum. The OP's opening "points" are flat out incorrect and hold no water at all, yet the thread goes on for 7 pages and each of the posts has merely given the guy more coverage (because the original post in a thread always ends up with the highest read count of any post in the thread.)
Most of these points others have covered already:
Using Level Advancement has no bearing on a game's server count or population - if the game is more popular as a result of using proven, intelligent advancement systems (and therefore being fun) then it might have a higher population and thus require more servers.
Using Level Advancement doesn't reduce content; it only decides how much of the existing content you can access at any given moment.
Skill-centric systems (be it UO's or EVE's) are basically Level Advancement.
Use-based progression 's primary advantage is it conforms with reality (practice makes perfect). But level-based progression gives players freedom - you kill how you want and you advance how you want. Whereas in a use-based system the game dictates to you how you kill if you want to advance in a certain way. And in more than one use-based game there were skills that just flat-out weren't fun to level (Oblivion is a great example of this going wrong.)
Playing with your friends is a simple matter of saying "level doesn't matter" - regardless of whether it's a skill-centric or level system. City of Heroes lets you play with friends by saying "level doesn't matter".
Advancement systems will always exist in a game in some form or another. If not "Level", some other form of point accumulation (amassing wealth/knowledge in EVE for instance.) Humans are wired to place more value on products where they perceive a lasting increase in power or wealth - games completely devoid of persistent accomplishments are not particularly common nowadays.
That said, it's obviously a smart design decision to fool people into thinking they're playing something new just because their levels aren't outright labelled "levels" (skill-centric or wealth-centric progression, as examples.) But "level" isn't devoid of inherent value, as it acts as a metric for players to judge comparative strengths between objects in the game world -- so whatever advantage is gained by NOT using Level needs to be at least good enough to overcome that (note: having a metric for judging comparative strength between entities in the game world is actually extremely important and useful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Levels makes 90% of the world empty and it means if you play with friends then you can fall behind and then not be able to play with them or even if you join after then you have to grind out levels before you can join them. It creates a top heavy game and makes it hard for new players, causing them to solo in what is an online game where you should play with other people.
1. Leveling systems reduce player populations - I think that when someone buys a MMO these days they have a good idea what they want to do in that game. PVP, PVE, Crafting, or socializing. People buy MMO games wanting to engage in a activity that is part of the game. However many games prevent you from doing what you want in a game right away by introducing an imaginary level system, with countless quests that have nothing or little to do with the actual storyline. Until you finish this imaginary system of quests you are usualy prevented from engaging the the activity you bought the game for, or engaging in it in any meaningful way.People need to be able to play the game from day one, and stand a chance in a pvp eviroment if friends already part of the game are willing to donate gear to them.
Nope. Leveling is the easiest and widest understood measure of progress for players. It's also what you may consider the solo content of the game, and a learning curve. Take levels away and you reduce your customer base substantially.
However, those who dislike levels might be more active in the game, and thus the in-game population at any time may be a higher % of your total customer base, but that's hardly a selling point to the investors and the people on your payroll when your number of paying subscripers is dropping. ;-)
I think Guildwars is the closest example to a game without levels that I've played. The problem with it is that it takes very little time to cap and your pretty much expected to PvP against players that are far more experienced and have a greater knowledge of the game. When I played it I was very conscious of the fact how little experience I had and more preoccupied with trying not to let my guild down rather than enjoying the game. I'm in favor of the leveling system as it gives you a measure of how far you progressed and gives players an incentive to explore the content as well as becoming better players.
In my opinion I can't even see a reason to play an mmo without leveling. It adds a huge aspect to me with something large to do when you have 30 different skills you can work on. It makes it so those that work on the skills diserve to grow in how good they do the skill and have numbers to back it up. I can't see an mmo being big without leveling.
Drackarre-A new medieval fantasy sandbox mmorpg in development by Bungaboo.
Comments
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
You are missing the fact that this can be a positive in a game. Maybe not for YOU, but I actually want disparity and segregation in the community. It actually adds a LOT to the game, IMO.
On an individual level, yes. A person can feel he is better or more advanced than the others. On a community level, it definitely imposes an artificial divide.The individual level feeling can still be achieved without levels and as such without the split of the community.
I don't see anything "artifical" about the divide. Just like a General is more advanced than a Private. A Jet pilot is more advanced than a person taking their first flying lesson. A Black Belt is more advanced than a White belt in Karate, etc., etc.
I don't expect the Private to fight side by side with the General, I don't expect the person with one flight less to fly with the Jet Pilots, I don't expect the White Belt to fight the Black Belt.
Progression and segregation are quite natural, not artificial.
The issue with levels in many games is that the game never really becomes more difficult, when im level 1, I fight a level 1 boar, when Im level 20, I fight a level 20 boar etc...both are just as hard for me to kill at the time and give me an amount of loot that I need at that time...sure later there are raids/bosses in some games, but if you made a raid dungeon for level 1 people it would be no more/less difficult than a level 1000 raid being done by level 1000's...anyway you get the idea. Just seems a bit pointless..I just killed the blue butterflies in area one, now i have leveled up I can kill the Level 2 green butterflies...
I think form a PvE perspective a game should get more difficult as you go, not just scale up evenly as you level and then give you the same monster with a different name tag and an extra 100 hit points. You should need to apply some of the actual skills you have learned as a player to overcome the game later on, not just equip your glowing sword and other Phat loot and then hack at whatever it is you are meant to kill and bring it down in the standard 18 seconds using the exact same combo you used at the beginning of the game (I know it sounds like I am referring to wow (and I am) but there are a heap of other games out there that do this).
I dont mind levels but not when they are a pointless attempt to give you a false sense of progression.
The progression is not false, it is very real. You are expressing dissatisfaction with the art department it sounds like, rather than the game design.
I understand a blue butterfly doesn't seem like it should be inherently more powerful than a green butterfly. But this is a result of budget, and using a cheap fix, changing colors, to ad more mobs.
But you can go back and kill the blue butterflys with one wack, where they used to kill you, so it is real progression, even if the art work doesn't indicate it very well.
Leveling is part of the fun. A game without levels could be fun but then it wouldnt be a mmorpg, it would be a mmog. It can be fun but we are talking, in that case, about a diferent type of game. If you really dont like leveling, in my opinion, you dont like mmorpgs it's like wanting a cheeseburger without the meat, sure you can eat it, but it will not be a cheesebuger.
Yet a few more reaons why level systems need to go by the wayside for a while.
When you play with your guildies and you/they outlevel you. You can not play with your guildies anymore since you/they have outleveled the content you are at. The only mmo I know that seemed to remedy this was City of Heroes/Villains where you can malefactor up/down.
What I would like to call easy mode for developers is the tiered content that wraps around the leveling system. Where a wolf at level 1 is not a wolf at level 11. At any point in the game based on your level a developer knows exactly where you are going to be. This is the theme park as they like to call it as they can develop content as the players level. "Add more rides." It provides a highly controlled environment for the developers to work in. For the players it equals a highly restrictive environment.
What I like to call the diablolization for an MMO. The item/level grind, Item Randomization on drops, etc. WoW is blizzard's realization that Diablo could be turned into an MMO.
These are the reasons why I think that MMO's that try to follow blizzard's lead ussually have a shelf life of like 3 1/2 months before they reach a plateau. Nothing will be as great as the original. People lose interest fairly quickly.
For my taste, drop me in a world and let me and my guildies make a name for ourselves. I think community, pvp, being your own hero/villain, making enemies/friends, watching cities get built and destroyed is far better than the theme park mmo's where you tire from the same old rides over and over and over again.
Your assumptions are kind of ridiculous. You say WoW is an MMO where people can catch up because of new servers? Yeah, right.
It has nothing to do with new servers. People can catch up in WoW because the game is so easy even a moron could level to 80. Just follow a series of quests for a week or 2 and you are caught up. And they start DKs at 55, lmao. The only reason behind that is they didn't want to have to add quests for DK's 1-55 or whatever.
So you want everyone to have access to a same level character? I don't like that idea at all. I don't want some moron who can't play their class properly to have the same level character as me. In real fucking MMOs, like EQ, if you're retarded at playing a certain class you can't level it well. If you were a cleric and couldn't heal, good luck getting a group. Do you think I want that kind of player to have access to the same level cleric as me?
WoW sucks in that it lets newbies catch up too easily. The thing with WoW is that anyone can have any level 80 they want because the leveling system and game are both trivial. So the horrible players who suck at playing their character have no problem at getting 80 and going on raids & gearing up. I think people who suck at one class should find something their good at. If you get rid of leveling systems, you'll see a lot of newbies playing classes they can't clearly handle.
Leveling systems let you distinguish between garbage players and good players.
You act like WoW is a great success because of new servers. Well, most of WoW is leveling content you know. Anyway, in a game like WoW i think the leveling system is pointless because it consists of "Do quest A, do quest B", it's handholding and trivial. Anyone can get to 80, so the leveling system is pointless in WoW.
I can see why a WoW player would not see the point of a leveling system because of all this, but in EQ where leveling is actually challenging it has a good reason.
Random looting systems, yeah I want an asian following me around with add-ons and eating loot from my kills. Great idea, your opinons are clearly valid. I mean, especially the type of game like Diablo where you have to run back to town to go hostile on another player. But yeah imagine random looting in EQ, you can't even attack the player if you aren't on a PvP server. That's a brilliant idea, I mean i'd love not being able to kill someone who is taking all my loot and following me.
Anyway, imagine WoW without a leveling system. People would have nothing to do in that game because it sucks. The endgame is just farming the same instances over and over, which is boring after the first time. The PvP system is boring and pointless because all of the PvP in WoW is inside protected carebear instances. If you got rid of the leveling system in WoW a lot less people would play it.
Obviously, getting rid of the leveling system would reduce the player populations because they'd realize quicker that the game is boring. Anyone who backs WoW is someone who hasn't played and beaten the endgame. Once they're there they realize how bad it is.
Think of it this way. Newbies will be stuck leveling, hardcore players will plow through leveling and some will quit.
But with no leveling system, everyone can realize it sucks from day 1. I guess it might work in a game like EQ where a brain is required to play, and there is fun stuff to do at the max level. But not WoW where there is nothing to do.
If you mean the end of any kind of advancement be it levels, skills or gear then absolutely NO! And it would not be popular. The reason people play MMOs generally is to develop their character.
It has everything to do with levels and skills-based progression. Levels don't work. They didn't workin DnD and they definitely don't work in MMOs - levels create disparity and segregate the community.
Explain how levels didnt work in DnD? How do levels create disparity in a game that is custom tailored to the party availible?What community is there in a 6 person gaming group?
Do you grind your teeth a lot when you play?
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My only problem with leveling is when I get friends to join the game. It ends up making everyone have to start over again. And if someone can't play for a while, they get left behind and most of the time end up quitting.
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Ok, I haven't read eveything here, and I voted "yes, players should jump in and play". But I wanted to explain, because that doesn't capture what I want.
I do want some levelling or skill gain. What I don't want is a game that's built around that. And I want the differences between advanced characters and newbies to be close enough that they can live, explore, trade, and socialize with each other and next to each other.
Basically, I want a game that's built around the world, not the character. I want experiences that have to do with living in the game world, not level grinding my characters up. I want a world similuation. I want to explore and find exciting things and mysteries. I want to try to build wealth that means something, not rationed out per level. I want to trade in a world market, not a level based tier. And I want to have meaningful social relations with all the players, not just those who are currently around my "level".
And I want the game world to explode with adventure, to be vibrant with activity, and evey time I log in I want to choose between a thousand things to do, to....to... to explore strange new lands, to seek out new life and new civilizations, and to boldly go where no toon has gone before!
Once upon a time....
Threads like these make me wish it was a standard feature in forums to be able to post in a thread *without* bumping it to the top of a forum. The OP's opening "points" are flat out incorrect and hold no water at all, yet the thread goes on for 7 pages and each of the posts has merely given the guy more coverage (because the original post in a thread always ends up with the highest read count of any post in the thread.)
Most of these points others have covered already:
Advancement systems will always exist in a game in some form or another. If not "Level", some other form of point accumulation (amassing wealth/knowledge in EVE for instance.) Humans are wired to place more value on products where they perceive a lasting increase in power or wealth - games completely devoid of persistent accomplishments are not particularly common nowadays.
That said, it's obviously a smart design decision to fool people into thinking they're playing something new just because their levels aren't outright labelled "levels" (skill-centric or wealth-centric progression, as examples.) But "level" isn't devoid of inherent value, as it acts as a metric for players to judge comparative strengths between objects in the game world -- so whatever advantage is gained by NOT using Level needs to be at least good enough to overcome that (note: having a metric for judging comparative strength between entities in the game world is actually extremely important and useful.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Levels makes 90% of the world empty and it means if you play with friends then you can fall behind and then not be able to play with them or even if you join after then you have to grind out levels before you can join them. It creates a top heavy game and makes it hard for new players, causing them to solo in what is an online game where you should play with other people.
SWG had the best system Pre CU.
Nope. Leveling is the easiest and widest understood measure of progress for players. It's also what you may consider the solo content of the game, and a learning curve. Take levels away and you reduce your customer base substantially.
However, those who dislike levels might be more active in the game, and thus the in-game population at any time may be a higher % of your total customer base, but that's hardly a selling point to the investors and the people on your payroll when your number of paying subscripers is dropping. ;-)
I think Guildwars is the closest example to a game without levels that I've played. The problem with it is that it takes very little time to cap and your pretty much expected to PvP against players that are far more experienced and have a greater knowledge of the game. When I played it I was very conscious of the fact how little experience I had and more preoccupied with trying not to let my guild down rather than enjoying the game. I'm in favor of the leveling system as it gives you a measure of how far you progressed and gives players an incentive to explore the content as well as becoming better players.
In my opinion I can't even see a reason to play an mmo without leveling. It adds a huge aspect to me with something large to do when you have 30 different skills you can work on. It makes it so those that work on the skills diserve to grow in how good they do the skill and have numbers to back it up. I can't see an mmo being big without leveling.
Drackarre-A new medieval fantasy sandbox mmorpg in development by Bungaboo.