It's about measurables. In single person RPGs, you've got a static story line to follow - even if there are different paths through it. The measurable is the point in that storyline. In MMOs, you have a wide variety of choices and the measurable is your level and class. For example: In RPGs, arriving at a certain city measures how far you've gotten in a game. In MMOs, you have several dozen cities to visit and that feat does not measure your advancement.
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Very few actually do that and the three I mentioned are UO, SWG preNGE and EvE got it right....98% of the others got it wrong.
I'd add Asheron's Call 1 to that list. Turbine didn't have the notoriety that Sony did back then which is in part why so many people went to EQ over AC. People go with what they are familiar with, for good or bad. AC1 defintely deserves more face time and recognition than what mainstream gaming media gives.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think in all this searching for the litmus test for an MMO people tend to overlook the examples that are already out there.
SoE with EverQuest has made a lot of mistakes, and they have made a lot of people mad, hating SoE is almost mandatory for any MMO gamer it seems….
No matter though, how much you hate SoE, EverQuest is one of the most loved MMOs in history. Maybe if the internet was huge in 1999 as it was when WoW came out they would have ten million subs, then again, maybe not.
What sets EQ apart from any other MMO is the community, lets face it, this can make or break the game just as much as the devs. When I logged into EQ I was Beowoulfe, I did not have alts until years after I started playing, save for when I made my trader. I logged in, I did not log in my toon as you do WoW, as much work as EQ was, it made a whole new world that for better or worse immersed you until that was your new persona.
WoW maybe fun and exciting, my have its hard parts, and even some hard core raiders, but nothing compares to when you are running through Kithicor and realize…crap its dark, you want to stop and turn around, but that could mean death, instead you hope you can get to High Hold or the Commonlands before the creatures and ghouls of the dark get you.
EQ had solo spots, when my wizard received his snares and pillar spells I did some quad kiting, but overall groups were it. While grinding can suck, and it does, killing mobs in a group, living or dying, or training the zone makes for some great times, good friends and a better community than running form NPC to NPC grabbing ten quests and gaining some levels. When two guilds raced for mobs enemies were made and alliances were formed.
This camping and raiding mobs, using first in force mentality did one major task that helped EQ, it slowed progression. Now before you roll your eyes, this is the single best benefit for devs, it gives them time to fix the game, and make quality expansions. Think about it, how long did it take to beat PoP and previous expansions, compared to GoD and beyond. With everything being instanced you can try every 24 hours or so and not worry about being there to beat uberguild01, guilds move through crap like crazy now a days, the hardest part now is keeping people playing EQ after 10 years and having the manpower to accomplish raids.
EQ was immersive because like in real life you had to rely on each other, and all were scared of dying, it just was not permanent like in real life, but the penalties and the resulting corpse run was severe enough, that you did not want to have a group wipe deep in the bowels of Lower Guk, or trying to get your guild back into the Plane of Fear to get your gear, especially if the first break in failed.
The new game should be EQ…lite….not EQII, Vanguard or even WoW, take the best of EQ, no instances, or very few, make people work together and add something for the solo player or someone who does not have much time that day.
As long as you want to quest your levels away, solo the mobs that you do get to kill we will not have the MMO we are looking for.
Dana said it best when he said “Why not make the journey fun” players will as Dana stated do the most mathematical efficient method to progress, its up to the developers to slow them, but at the same time make the game enjoyable, where guilds and groups live and die by the sword.
EQ 2002-2009 EQ2 2004-2006 Vanguard 2007-2009 AoC 2008-2008 WAR 2008-2009
Yeah I think we've been through this with Dana already, its a good follow up on the previous article though.
I've always hated the grind perspective in any game. And as long as game had levels it always had grind. I guess those 2 just go along no matter what you do.
I think that current MMO developers fail to research the gaming market appropriately and thats why we have to play the same template of the MMO game in every new product. I am sick to be honest after so many years without any new touch in MMOs. I hold dire hopes for SWToR and am enjoying single player games right now more than anything else.
Enjoyed your article. I like the idea of unlockable content myself. The funny thing is I have seen unlockable content so to speak in an old game called Everquest before. You had to get keyed for certain raids and you have to also do raids in sequence to get the necessary gear for the next. I loved this design myself. I think you are right on though on though. I would like to see a game with no levels and progression was just unlocking content all the way through. You do this to unlock this, so on and so on. This can be accomplished with gear as well as in my example. WoW had "keyed" content as well at first. Thanks for the article.
I agrre also. EQ2 had most zones done so you had to unlock them too, but they took it away because people complained.
But there is more fun things than gaining loot and level up, at least some MMOs should focus more on that.
I agree with you, EQ2 has submitted itself to whimper whiners. I think the main problem with MMOs, is they listen too much to the whiners on the forums. I blame WoW for this because it was just too easy (at least I am told) to level up. When EQ1 and EQ2 first launched, EQ1 was very hard and unforgiving, EQ2 was hard compared to everything else. Now I can get from 1 -50 in a week and that is not playing hard. The only way the MMO industry will advance is stop making WoW clones or changing their game to be WoW.
Also: Gamers play games. People without real jobs go to gaming conventions and TALK about gaming.
I go to gaming conventions because my real job is making MMOs. Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.
You’re a very low percentage, a rarity. For the most part, he is right. I would love to go to the SOE fan faire once. But I would have to take vacation and spend my money to go there, just like I would if I was going to E3.
Originally posted by Gkarn Originally posted by TdogSkal Originally posted by gnlLucid Also: Gamers play games. People without real jobs go to gaming conventions and TALK about gaming.
I go to gaming conventions because my real job is making MMOs. Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.
Youre a very low percentage, a rarity. For the most part, he is right. I would love to go to the SOE fan faire once. But I would have to take vacation and spend my money to go there, just like I would if I was going to E3.
But there are still a lot of hippies who dress in capes and musketeer hats and people without jobs .
And by the way, has anyone noticed how weak and lame is what developers are trying to focus their attention on and attract players in with? Especially the game with PvP content. I mean everything is focused now on "COOL" and "BAD ASS". Doesn't it already speak for itself that developers want to mostly attract underaged idiots, sorry for being harsh? I don't mean all kids, I mean those who has enough brain to only like violence, blood and porn. Why does everyone need to look like ninja? Is "COOL" actually so important in MMO? I mean as farther we go as bloodier MMOs become. Who could think about disembowlement before? Now its as more blood during the fight as better. Limbs are flying, heads exploding... WooW, COOOOL... *roll eyes*
I think AoC is a good example of the lasting value of "COOL" and "BAD ASS" since that game was trying to capture the interest with mostly those features. Game was cool and you felt very "bad ass" by cutting heads off the mobs and doing all kind of other bloody fatalities. I guess after all it gets boring to soak yourself in blood and the "COOL" and "BAD ASS" is not really as important if game developers plan to capture the gamers interest for longer than 50 levels. Fable 2 is a good example that games can still be very fun and popular even without puddles of blood and poked our eyes with pieces of someone else's smashed brain all over your body.
You guys need to realize you are the now the MMO minority. The majority doesn't sign up for forums, doesn't RP, and doesn't want to waste a bunch of time leveling. They are much more interested in what items they have then what part of the story they are in. They don't really play single player RPGs because they would rather play online FPS games. If the game takes to long to give them their fun fix they are just going to move on to a different game. These are not the people that make friends online, they have their real friends and play with them in game. These are the majority of paying customers now and if a game doesn't get them they are dead, because it is very clear that most 'serious' MMORPG fans have their preferred game. It is much much much easier to design a fast leveling, cool item having, PvP focusing MMOLite game then design a game with this great aspect of EG, that innovative aspect of DAoC, that one amazing aspect of AC1, and so on. The point is unless you can create the perfect RPG fans MMORPG you are going to have to aim for the most inviting and easy game possible. And yes it comes down to money, welcome to the world. I know it is oh so cynical to say but most of the companies need to make some money by attracting fans. Clearly WoW has the most fans, has made Blizzard the most money, and every head of every company wants their new title to make that much money and I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 of those heads aren't trolling forums wondering what RPG lovers want in their games, they are just looking at the numbers. So until one of us makes enough money that we can blow it making the worlds best MMORPG we are going to have to put up with mediocre MMOGs that you can RP in if you want. Now I can go back to trolling.
Well I am EQ2 raider and I measure progress via raid progression. Raid mobs get increasingly difficult and you can't kill the hard ones before you kil lthe easier ones whether it simply lock you out of the area or you need to kill the easy guy enough times to get the equipment for a bunch of the raiders.
So if you asked me I would have said we are working on gynok is ToMC and mynzok in palace. Takes most guilds MONTHS to progress through these bosses except for 1-2 more hardcore guilds on each server which already have it all on farm status.
EQ2 has realized most people who play their game frequently raid, so they just put almost all the content at the level cap every expansion. Its almost to the point where they could just not have levels and just make it equipment and encounter progression based. Any content added that is not for the cap is mainly there to speed/ease leveling to the cap. In kunark they did add a new race and town but it was also the quickest and easiest way to get through 1-20. 1-79 is basic training for your class essentially, just long enough to make you look at all your skills, ask around how to do some stuff better and nuances of combat before you get to 80 and start 'really' playing. They even added a raid to accomadate 12 people instead of 24 (still added a 24 person raid though) and are doing the same thing with the next game update.
I completely and 100% agree with him, which is why Ive dreamed of a no lvls game but something based on how much practice you get at something. Gonna be harder to swing that huge sword if youve only swung sticks around your entire life kinda thing . You can still use that giant sword though and as you use it more and more youll get used to it youll get stronger and master it. Need mechanics like that in a MMO not progress bars limiting you to grinds.
The game I play doesn't have levels, it has skills, and they don't show your skill level, so when you talk about someone it's always, 'that guy is a great warrior', not, 'that guy is level 50'. You know you are skilled when you do things better than you did before and no one complains about unfair level differences when they get beat... they just praise the victor. There's no grind at all. You live, work, craft, build, adventure... it's completely open. You don't need quests for that. You just need the coded tools for your character to have a rich and full life with a real impact on the world (which is freaking massive, BTW). You don't need great graphics either, because after you get over the graphics it's all just about what you want to accomplish and whether or not the game supports that goal. In the end it's all about your imagination, not some cartoon that does more to detract from the feel of the world than add to it.
Where am I at in the game? Well, I'm one of the better warriors in Brygga, but have no idea what my skill level is in terms of numbers. I just finished a shop to sell items crafted from rarer metals that I pan in dangerous lands from the streams others have a hard time getting to and therefore are richer since the gems and metals (gold, silver, mithril, etc) deplete over time and regen very slowly. The easily reachable areas are quickly depleted. I am now beginning a small fort out there so I can have a base of operations for NPC hirelings that will do some of the panning for me, as well as guard the fort. I also am helping to build roads to ease travel into the north where the other main player race lives. They have things we want to trade for and it's a really long and slow journey right now without good roads.
So where am I? I don't know... but I'm having fun there and it's never a grind.
The formula for real fun: Graphics 1 | Fun 10 | Sound 0 | Community 10 | Role-Playing 10 | Performance/Lag 10 | Value 10 | Service 10 http://www.thornsofwar.com
The game I play doesn't have levels, it has skills, and they don't show your skill level, so when you talk about someone it's always, 'that guy is a great warrior', not, 'that guy is level 50'. You know you are skilled when you do things better than you did before and no one complains about unfair level differences when they get beat... they just praise the victor. There's no grind at all. You live, work, craft, build, adventure... it's completely open. You don't need quests for that. You just need the coded tools for your character to have a rich and full life with a real impact on the world (which is freaking massive, BTW). You don't need great graphics either, because after you get over the graphics it's all just about what you want to accomplish and whether or not the game supports that goal. In the end it's all about your imagination, not some cartoon that does more to detract from the feel of the world than add to it. Where am I at in the game? Well, I'm one of the better warriors in Brygga, but have no idea what my skill level is in terms of numbers. I just finished a shop to sell items crafted from rarer metals that I pan in dangerous lands from the streams others have a hard time getting to and therefore are richer since the gems and metals (gold, silver, mithril, etc) deplete over time and regen very slowly. The easily reachable areas are quickly depleted. I am now beginning a small fort out there so I can have a base of operations for NPC hirelings that will do some of the panning for me, as well as guard the fort. I also am helping to build roads to ease travel into the north where the other main player race lives. They have things we want to trade for and it's a really long and slow journey right now without good roads. So where am I? I don't know... but I'm having fun there and it's never a grind.
Thanks for posting a link to this game. I'm certainly going to try this out. The premise of this game as seen on the home page is what the graphical MMOs should be aiming for, at least some of them. It's kind of how UO was.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Games will start moving away from the level grind. Darkfall has recently stepped into that area and is conceptually very good although the dev team is too small to do it justice and there is a strange attitude that suggests that the players are an annoyance who get in the way of the dev team doing a really good job. Mortal Online looks better and is purer in concept and will very much be in the 'Oblivion' style. There will be no levels, gear will not be very important, and player skill will be the most important factor - not the hours a person has sat in front of the screen.
As for The Old Republic, what a disappointment that it will be another level grind in the WoW fashion. I thought Bioware might be a bit more innovative. Instead they will copy Blizzard. What is the point in Bioware putting in a great story to assist the level grind when most players will not read anything as it will just slow down their progression through the levels. This game will not be about the journey - it will be about an end game that may or may not exist. All the effort to make the journey fun will be wasted because there are levels and people see this as a gauge to their awesomeness.
I love Star Wars, and wouldn't it be great if we had a world that we could move through without thought to level, and only thought to how good do we feel. Are my skills - both as a real person and as a bunch of numbers - good enough to take that on? Do I feel confident to travel in this sector, rather than I am not allowed to travel in that sector because my level isn't high enough. Dana is correct in that I never once worried about level in KoToR (were there any?), but Dana is kidding himself if he thinks that just because Bioware is going to make a good story that people won't worry about level ihn ToR.
Anyway, I will be playing Mortal Online (Beta on 29 June) with PAGAN, and I won't have to worry about levels, where I can and can't go. That journey will be great and will have no end.
That is the difference and that is where so many of these games go wrong. It isn't about the journey...it's about the level. Kinda of what you were aiming at I think in your Litmus test. In the SRPG it is about the journey, and in an MMORPG it is about the class and level. Alot of these games have lost there way and need to get back to being about the journey and not the level. Very few actually do that and the three I mentioned are UO, SWG preNGE and EvE got it right....98% of the others got it wrong.
To an extent, Lineage 2 did this as well by virtue of the ridiculous level grind making gaining the cap virtually unatainable for the average player.
My experience was that I had a 'main' who was my highest level that I used for pvp and socializing and spent a great deal of time on my merchant character travelling from city to city, buying low and selling high, and when i wasnt doing that I was working on gathering and crafting to make better kit for my 'main' to better facilitate pvping and socializing...
You can see how it turns into the cocaine psa from the 80's, lol.
Personally, I dont mind levels, it is a carrot on the stick that keeps more people in the game. TBH, I would like to see a game company with the bollocks to develop a game with infinite levels. Develop and MMO where there is no 'end game'. Let the minmaxers do their thing, but with an infinitely growing and disparate cost per kill/gain ratio.
Fact is, if the activities that your doing in the game are fun (pve, pvp, crafting, exploring, diplomacy) then gaining another level should be a feather in your cap, not the end all, be all.
I disagree with this articles, i think if u dont like how a mmo works, feel, play, or whatever, just dont play it, mmos dont have to adapt, but players have to adapt. and if u asked me that question i would had answered a death knight, right now attempting yogg-saron, thats storyline. its stupid to ask for the level, if you play a game 'seriously' its obvious your already max level, and what you been doing is farm content, go threw content, explore new content. levels is just a ladder to rank content.
you've got it all wrong.
and what will happen when a play levelup in your new 'system' its bul%$^@^
It's somewhat of a silly comparison. In FFXI I can be anywhere on 5 different main quest lines: I can be rank 1-10 in one of three home nations, I can be at a specific mission in chains of promathia or tales of aht urghan, and I can be so in one or more of 3 Wings of the Goddess nation quests as well as the main quest line. This isn't counting things like assault or campaign rank.
I can reach cap in up to 20 different jobs on the same character. There's a reason why we use level for the most part, it's an easy general shorthand. When we talk about specific missions and quests, then we talk about story.
In single player MMO's, the only real shorthand is the single main quest line.
IMO It was obvious during the design and beta stages of war when they anounced (and fans cheered) that there would be seperate levels for pvp and pve and individual ways to to level them that this was always going to be the outcome. I don't think the litmus test in itself is actually relevent and all that really happened was the author seemed to have a eurica moment when he suddenly realised that with levels in a game, a massive portion of the playerbase will always take the course of least resistance. Now this is not meant as an insult but that really is no revelation. How people describe their current position in a game may be an indication on how people view their progress and maybe even a slight indication as to how they play their game but it most certainly doesn't indicate whether the game is good or people enjoy it or if the journey to end game (and the end game itself) is worth it. MMO's have (or should have, which is why its quite interesting someone bought up LotRO) multiple options when progressing their chars through an MMO this is much more likely to be why they use level as indication as telling someone about the quest they are on or part of the game doesn't tell anything as the other person may never have even been there or experienced it. I am not deliberately trying to pick holes in the atricle but the conclusion to me also doesn't hold true either in practice nor logic. The games that are used to pad the argument, such as TOR, which are touted as being primarily story focused and driven is only subject to each gamers preferences and opinions on games. Is it a good approach to a game? O/c it is people like a good story and canon but it is not going to save the game if the mechanics and end game are not also to the gamers preference. I don't believe it is about taking a single player game and basically making it function as an MMO, an MMO is a completely different animal and people playing them have entirely different expectations. Few people hate levels more than me but that for me is more due to the fake functionality they bring to a game. But it doesn't change players methods of progression in general, they will still use web sites to skim through content and they will always take the easiest route all the time there is some form of competition to end game.
To quote my favorite beer commercial, "Brilliant!"
I think Dana had an RvR hangover from getting stomped by the opposing side the night before and is picking on Warhammer because of it.
You are a fool if you think WAR is failing because of your theory and I quote:
"The moment advancement became an intricate part of RvR, players did what they will always do. They sought out the most efficient means of advancement and suddenly what was once an epic, eternal WAR became two sides looking for the most mathematically efficient means possible to advance their Renown Rank.
And as we all known, that’s when fun becomes a grind… and Warhammer Online has been bleeding subscribers ever since."
Read any of the forums related to Warhammer, WAR is failing for the simple fact that the classes are completely unbalanced and pleas for balance are going unanswered. Or rather Mythic isn't taking the corrective steps necessary, to at the very least ease their subscribers minds that the changes are forthcoming. It's that simple!
While a lot of people do get altitis most people I find stick with 1 or 2 classes from MMO to MMO, specifically the mainstream and those most likely to jump ship. When they hop from one MMO to the other they usually jump into the first class that's familiar to them. I've seen it time and time again. Unfortunately with WAR, you run into a game where said person logs on to the game for the first time and jumps into said class only to find out said class in their opinion is significantly gimped. While that person may try out other classes within this new game, they will eventually out of frustration, either go back to their previous game or jump to the next game with similar said class. Doing this all the while until they find the game where the class that they choose to play is to their liking.
Will some people switch within the same game to another class, most likely an OP class? Sure, they will! They'll try it out or test the water, if you will, but it won't last. You've heard the saying, "to each their own"? Certain people are drawn to certain classes for a reason, because it fits their personality type!
To quote an earlier poster, Hokie, "I dont want to be a player in a predetermined story. I want to BE the story." 99.9% of the time that involves the player or protagonist playing the class that they initially pictured in their mind, not the class they were forced into playing due to imbalance.
WAR to me is a lot of fun, but then again I play a Bright Wizard! If you were to scan the Bright Wizard class forums I can assure you that rarely will you see anyone threatening to unsub due to being unhappy with the game. However, if you were to jump over to the Shadow Warrior forums they are overrun with posts of unhappy campers, many that are leaving and those that have left. It's not Rocket Science. Subscriber is thinking about leaving game because they are frustrated...subscriber posts message in forums that they are unhappy and planning to leave game...subscriber leaves game. We live in a, wear your heart on your sleeve society. Ninety percent of the time people will let you know exactly why they are upset, one hundred percent of the time when it involves their money (as P2P's do).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, WAR to me has tons of potential. It's obvious to me that someone over at Mythic is making poor decision after poor decision (I'd go into detail as to why I feel that way, but I'm tired of typing). If I was in a decision making position over at Mythic I guarantee WAR would be more successful than it's current state.
I dont know Dana, I think you dont get Warhammer Online. You seem to be taking some potshots at it. You say its all about renown, well yeah of course it is. Its like faulting WoW for its instances. Theres nothing wrong with renown.
And they've done some great things. Gone are the endless runs thru a dungeon waiting for that class drop item and hoping that you win that roll . Yes there is still endless runs hitting keep after keep, jumping from zone to zone waiting for a flip. But at the end of it all you WILL get that item you've been wanting so bad. Influence rewards is one of the most ingenious things (along with PQ's) that WAR has contributed to the MMO genre.
And leveling thru rvr (pvp), you say it ruined the game. I think its obvious that a pvp game isnt for you. Hell, I get pissed I cant level my toon thru rvr only, I have to actually take quests to advance. Just recently Ive been lucky enough that Ive found a server that I can advance thru rvr only, and my god its the most fun Ive had in gaming in a really long time. I'd rather pit my wits against a human player over a scripted NPC any day.
And ruining the game by "making the journey fun". WTF is up with that statement. The most fun I had in WoW was leveling my hunter from 1-60, my mage from 1-60. I hated the repetitiveness of the instances (the whole scripted thing). "Okay were on the second boss, mage you stand there, warrior you stand there and remember to taunt, blah, blah, blah." The journey was so much better than reaching the destination.
Umm calling MMO's niche genre...LOL Dude, the average MMO player repurchases the game every tthree months (if you put it into the perspective of single player game pricing). Lets do WoW as an example. I know people that have been playing for 2+ years. In that time they have repurchases the box value of an average PC/console game 7 times. How many people do you know that will purchase the same single player game again every 3 months? As a matter of fact I'd even go so far as to say MMO's are killing the single player PC gaming industry. I wouldnt call that niche.
And waiting for a game that doesnt use levels as a progress bar, a golden age. Do you have any experience of MMO gaming outside of the Big-3 of Sony/Mythic/Blizzard? (sorry for the jab) I said it a long time ago on EVE's forums. "CCP are trailblazers". And in my opinion they dont get the recognition for the ground breaking they did. You are a good example of that. There is a five year old game that fits your Golden Age criteria, and not once was it mentioned. The truth is not having levels to measure your progress scares alot of people.
I seen this post as very negative, written by a person who hasnt weaned themselves off of the WoW teat, who has a hard time accepting something that isnt viewed as the norm by 10m people. Innovation isnt bad, and stumbling along the way isnt reason enough to point a finger and cry "FAIL!".
On a side note. The way you described SW:ToR has me worried. I dont want to be a player in a predetermined story. I want to BE the story.
Needed to quote this also as I whole-heartedly agree. You Sir are a gentlemen and a scholar!
I really thought you were headed somewhere that I could agree with. Then you said WAR had RvR, and you thought it was fun. RvR is not BGs. WAR RvR is nothing like DAoC. One is epic, one is easymode.
My brother and I were talking last night about how WAR really let us down. I made the comment that what really hurt it was even a monkey could RvR in that game, and be successful. WAR was just plain not fun, not immersive, and lacked community that a MMO needs to thrive.
Really nice column. I never really thought about the level system as the enemy before, but now I realize how much it detracted from my gaming experience. Always worried about getting the next level so I can get the new abilities/equipment that I stop enjoying the game itself. I think I'd love to play a MMO without levels, might bring back my intrerest big time like no other MMO has kept since Asheron's Call.
I totally agree with your article Dana, especially in regards to WAR. In some respect, you can apply the same logic to late DAOC, when epic battles were pretty much gone and all that was left was grinding RPs so you could get in your guild's 8-man "A-team" rather than living off the scraps.
Sad thing is that we will still see 5 years of MMOs with nothing but lvls...
There is one thing that alot of ppl seem to forget tho... MMORPG is NOT the same as RPG. So.... why does every single Pay to play MMO have exactly the same crappy chat windows ? Not that MMO games should be chatting rooms.. but still...
I have played many MMOs for long time... The only thing they had in comon in the end was that I felt I wasted alot of time by playing them. But still I met alot of nice ppl while playing - even tho I met 10 times the number of jerks while at it.. And... quite few of the jerks became friends... and quite few of the friends became jerks...
I myself support a game that is about the journey... But they journey has to be worth it. Thats where alot of MMOs fail. And instead of a real journey you end up with 80 ppl afk in Allatec Valley to get gear.... And destroy the actual multiplayer content of the game while at it.
Lesson learned for many old school MMO players is... PPL are jerks - Its a game. So... dont bother to play it diffrently.
Comments
...Very few actually do that and the three I mentioned are UO, SWG preNGE and EvE got it right....98% of the others got it wrong.
I'd add Asheron's Call 1 to that list. Turbine didn't have the notoriety that Sony did back then which is in part why so many people went to EQ over AC. People go with what they are familiar with, for good or bad. AC1 defintely deserves more face time and recognition than what mainstream gaming media gives.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I go to gaming conventions because my real job is making MMOs. Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.
Sooner or Later
I think in all this searching for the litmus test for an MMO people tend to overlook the examples that are already out there.
SoE with EverQuest has made a lot of mistakes, and they have made a lot of people mad, hating SoE is almost mandatory for any MMO gamer it seems….
No matter though, how much you hate SoE, EverQuest is one of the most loved MMOs in history. Maybe if the internet was huge in 1999 as it was when WoW came out they would have ten million subs, then again, maybe not.
What sets EQ apart from any other MMO is the community, lets face it, this can make or break the game just as much as the devs. When I logged into EQ I was Beowoulfe, I did not have alts until years after I started playing, save for when I made my trader. I logged in, I did not log in my toon as you do WoW, as much work as EQ was, it made a whole new world that for better or worse immersed you until that was your new persona.
WoW maybe fun and exciting, my have its hard parts, and even some hard core raiders, but nothing compares to when you are running through Kithicor and realize…crap its dark, you want to stop and turn around, but that could mean death, instead you hope you can get to High Hold or the Commonlands before the creatures and ghouls of the dark get you.
EQ had solo spots, when my wizard received his snares and pillar spells I did some quad kiting, but overall groups were it. While grinding can suck, and it does, killing mobs in a group, living or dying, or training the zone makes for some great times, good friends and a better community than running form NPC to NPC grabbing ten quests and gaining some levels. When two guilds raced for mobs enemies were made and alliances were formed.
This camping and raiding mobs, using first in force mentality did one major task that helped EQ, it slowed progression. Now before you roll your eyes, this is the single best benefit for devs, it gives them time to fix the game, and make quality expansions. Think about it, how long did it take to beat PoP and previous expansions, compared to GoD and beyond. With everything being instanced you can try every 24 hours or so and not worry about being there to beat uberguild01, guilds move through crap like crazy now a days, the hardest part now is keeping people playing EQ after 10 years and having the manpower to accomplish raids.
EQ was immersive because like in real life you had to rely on each other, and all were scared of dying, it just was not permanent like in real life, but the penalties and the resulting corpse run was severe enough, that you did not want to have a group wipe deep in the bowels of Lower Guk, or trying to get your guild back into the Plane of Fear to get your gear, especially if the first break in failed.
The new game should be EQ…lite….not EQII, Vanguard or even WoW, take the best of EQ, no instances, or very few, make people work together and add something for the solo player or someone who does not have much time that day.
As long as you want to quest your levels away, solo the mobs that you do get to kill we will not have the MMO we are looking for.
Dana said it best when he said “Why not make the journey fun” players will as Dana stated do the most mathematical efficient method to progress, its up to the developers to slow them, but at the same time make the game enjoyable, where guilds and groups live and die by the sword.
EQ 2002-2009
EQ2 2004-2006
Vanguard 2007-2009
AoC 2008-2008
WAR 2008-2009
Yeah I think we've been through this with Dana already, its a good follow up on the previous article though.
I've always hated the grind perspective in any game. And as long as game had levels it always had grind. I guess those 2 just go along no matter what you do.
I think that current MMO developers fail to research the gaming market appropriately and thats why we have to play the same template of the MMO game in every new product. I am sick to be honest after so many years without any new touch in MMOs. I hold dire hopes for SWToR and am enjoying single player games right now more than anything else.
I agrre also. EQ2 had most zones done so you had to unlock them too, but they took it away because people complained.
But there is more fun things than gaining loot and level up, at least some MMOs should focus more on that.
I agree with you, EQ2 has submitted itself to whimper whiners. I think the main problem with MMOs, is they listen too much to the whiners on the forums. I blame WoW for this because it was just too easy (at least I am told) to level up. When EQ1 and EQ2 first launched, EQ1 was very hard and unforgiving, EQ2 was hard compared to everything else. Now I can get from 1 -50 in a week and that is not playing hard. The only way the MMO industry will advance is stop making WoW clones or changing their game to be WoW.
I go to gaming conventions because my real job is making MMOs. Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.
You’re a very low percentage, a rarity. For the most part, he is right. I would love to go to the SOE fan faire once. But I would have to take vacation and spend my money to go there, just like I would if I was going to E3.
I go to gaming conventions because my real job is making MMOs. Sorry but you have no idea what your talking about.
Youre a very low percentage, a rarity. For the most part, he is right. I would love to go to the SOE fan faire once. But I would have to take vacation and spend my money to go there, just like I would if I was going to E3.
But there are still a lot of hippies who dress in capes and musketeer hats and people without jobs
.
And by the way, has anyone noticed how weak and lame is what developers are trying to focus their attention on and attract players in with? Especially the game with PvP content. I mean everything is focused now on "COOL" and "BAD ASS". Doesn't it already speak for itself that developers want to mostly attract underaged idiots, sorry for being harsh? I don't mean all kids, I mean those who has enough brain to only like violence, blood and porn. Why does everyone need to look like ninja? Is "COOL" actually so important in MMO? I mean as farther we go as bloodier MMOs become. Who could think about disembowlement before? Now its as more blood during the fight as better. Limbs are flying, heads exploding... WooW, COOOOL... *roll eyes*
I think AoC is a good example of the lasting value of "COOL" and "BAD ASS" since that game was trying to capture the interest with mostly those features. Game was cool and you felt very "bad ass" by cutting heads off the mobs and doing all kind of other bloody fatalities. I guess after all it gets boring to soak yourself in blood and the "COOL" and "BAD ASS" is not really as important if game developers plan to capture the gamers interest for longer than 50 levels. Fable 2 is a good example that games can still be very fun and popular even without puddles of blood and poked our eyes with pieces of someone else's smashed brain all over your body.
How many DAoC players levelled a toon to 24, kitted it out in full over charged SC masterpiece gear and then /xpoff /rpoff and lived in Thidranki?
Stop progession, start the fun!
You guys need to realize you are the now the MMO minority. The majority doesn't sign up for forums, doesn't RP, and doesn't want to waste a bunch of time leveling. They are much more interested in what items they have then what part of the story they are in. They don't really play single player RPGs because they would rather play online FPS games. If the game takes to long to give them their fun fix they are just going to move on to a different game. These are not the people that make friends online, they have their real friends and play with them in game. These are the majority of paying customers now and if a game doesn't get them they are dead, because it is very clear that most 'serious' MMORPG fans have their preferred game. It is much much much easier to design a fast leveling, cool item having, PvP focusing MMOLite game then design a game with this great aspect of EG, that innovative aspect of DAoC, that one amazing aspect of AC1, and so on. The point is unless you can create the perfect RPG fans MMORPG you are going to have to aim for the most inviting and easy game possible. And yes it comes down to money, welcome to the world. I know it is oh so cynical to say but most of the companies need to make some money by attracting fans. Clearly WoW has the most fans, has made Blizzard the most money, and every head of every company wants their new title to make that much money and I am willing to bet that 9 out of 10 of those heads aren't trolling forums wondering what RPG lovers want in their games, they are just looking at the numbers. So until one of us makes enough money that we can blow it making the worlds best MMORPG we are going to have to put up with mediocre MMOGs that you can RP in if you want. Now I can go back to trolling.
Well I am EQ2 raider and I measure progress via raid progression. Raid mobs get increasingly difficult and you can't kill the hard ones before you kil lthe easier ones whether it simply lock you out of the area or you need to kill the easy guy enough times to get the equipment for a bunch of the raiders.
So if you asked me I would have said we are working on gynok is ToMC and mynzok in palace. Takes most guilds MONTHS to progress through these bosses except for 1-2 more hardcore guilds on each server which already have it all on farm status.
EQ2 has realized most people who play their game frequently raid, so they just put almost all the content at the level cap every expansion. Its almost to the point where they could just not have levels and just make it equipment and encounter progression based. Any content added that is not for the cap is mainly there to speed/ease leveling to the cap. In kunark they did add a new race and town but it was also the quickest and easiest way to get through 1-20. 1-79 is basic training for your class essentially, just long enough to make you look at all your skills, ask around how to do some stuff better and nuances of combat before you get to 80 and start 'really' playing. They even added a raid to accomadate 12 people instead of 24 (still added a 24 person raid though) and are doing the same thing with the next game update.
I completely and 100% agree with him, which is why Ive dreamed of a no lvls game but something based on how much practice you get at something. Gonna be harder to swing that huge sword if youve only swung sticks around your entire life kinda thing . You can still use that giant sword though and as you use it more and more youll get used to it youll get stronger and master it. Need mechanics like that in a MMO not progress bars limiting you to grinds.
The game I play doesn't have levels, it has skills, and they don't show your skill level, so when you talk about someone it's always, 'that guy is a great warrior', not, 'that guy is level 50'. You know you are skilled when you do things better than you did before and no one complains about unfair level differences when they get beat... they just praise the victor. There's no grind at all. You live, work, craft, build, adventure... it's completely open. You don't need quests for that. You just need the coded tools for your character to have a rich and full life with a real impact on the world (which is freaking massive, BTW). You don't need great graphics either, because after you get over the graphics it's all just about what you want to accomplish and whether or not the game supports that goal. In the end it's all about your imagination, not some cartoon that does more to detract from the feel of the world than add to it.
Where am I at in the game? Well, I'm one of the better warriors in Brygga, but have no idea what my skill level is in terms of numbers. I just finished a shop to sell items crafted from rarer metals that I pan in dangerous lands from the streams others have a hard time getting to and therefore are richer since the gems and metals (gold, silver, mithril, etc) deplete over time and regen very slowly. The easily reachable areas are quickly depleted. I am now beginning a small fort out there so I can have a base of operations for NPC hirelings that will do some of the panning for me, as well as guard the fort. I also am helping to build roads to ease travel into the north where the other main player race lives. They have things we want to trade for and it's a really long and slow journey right now without good roads.
So where am I? I don't know... but I'm having fun there and it's never a grind.
The formula for real fun:
Graphics 1 | Fun 10 | Sound 0 | Community 10 | Role-Playing 10 | Performance/Lag 10 | Value 10 | Service 10
http://www.thornsofwar.com
Thanks for posting a link to this game. I'm certainly going to try this out. The premise of this game as seen on the home page is what the graphical MMOs should be aiming for, at least some of them. It's kind of how UO was.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Games will start moving away from the level grind. Darkfall has recently stepped into that area and is conceptually very good although the dev team is too small to do it justice and there is a strange attitude that suggests that the players are an annoyance who get in the way of the dev team doing a really good job. Mortal Online looks better and is purer in concept and will very much be in the 'Oblivion' style. There will be no levels, gear will not be very important, and player skill will be the most important factor - not the hours a person has sat in front of the screen.
As for The Old Republic, what a disappointment that it will be another level grind in the WoW fashion. I thought Bioware might be a bit more innovative. Instead they will copy Blizzard. What is the point in Bioware putting in a great story to assist the level grind when most players will not read anything as it will just slow down their progression through the levels. This game will not be about the journey - it will be about an end game that may or may not exist. All the effort to make the journey fun will be wasted because there are levels and people see this as a gauge to their awesomeness.
I love Star Wars, and wouldn't it be great if we had a world that we could move through without thought to level, and only thought to how good do we feel. Are my skills - both as a real person and as a bunch of numbers - good enough to take that on? Do I feel confident to travel in this sector, rather than I am not allowed to travel in that sector because my level isn't high enough. Dana is correct in that I never once worried about level in KoToR (were there any?), but Dana is kidding himself if he thinks that just because Bioware is going to make a good story that people won't worry about level ihn ToR.
Anyway, I will be playing Mortal Online (Beta on 29 June) with PAGAN, and I won't have to worry about levels, where I can and can't go. That journey will be great and will have no end.
To an extent, Lineage 2 did this as well by virtue of the ridiculous level grind making gaining the cap virtually unatainable for the average player.
My experience was that I had a 'main' who was my highest level that I used for pvp and socializing and spent a great deal of time on my merchant character travelling from city to city, buying low and selling high, and when i wasnt doing that I was working on gathering and crafting to make better kit for my 'main' to better facilitate pvping and socializing...
You can see how it turns into the cocaine psa from the 80's, lol.
Personally, I dont mind levels, it is a carrot on the stick that keeps more people in the game. TBH, I would like to see a game company with the bollocks to develop a game with infinite levels. Develop and MMO where there is no 'end game'. Let the minmaxers do their thing, but with an infinitely growing and disparate cost per kill/gain ratio.
Fact is, if the activities that your doing in the game are fun (pve, pvp, crafting, exploring, diplomacy) then gaining another level should be a feather in your cap, not the end all, be all.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
I disagree with this articles, i think if u dont like how a mmo works, feel, play, or whatever, just dont play it, mmos dont have to adapt, but players have to adapt. and if u asked me that question i would had answered a death knight, right now attempting yogg-saron, thats storyline. its stupid to ask for the level, if you play a game 'seriously' its obvious your already max level, and what you been doing is farm content, go threw content, explore new content. levels is just a ladder to rank content.
you've got it all wrong.
and what will happen when a play levelup in your new 'system' its bul%$^@^
there wont be no more of:
<UncleTom> DING!!!
<pino> GRATS!
<booba> zomg already?
or....
12:34 <Yogg-Saron dies>
12:34 <UncleTOM> YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...........
see the similarity? here WE ALL FREAKED OUT WHEN WE LEVELED AND WHEN WE KILLED CONTENT!
dont try to break what has been working perfecly for over 20 years or more of mmo history or even just RPGs.
It's somewhat of a silly comparison. In FFXI I can be anywhere on 5 different main quest lines: I can be rank 1-10 in one of three home nations, I can be at a specific mission in chains of promathia or tales of aht urghan, and I can be so in one or more of 3 Wings of the Goddess nation quests as well as the main quest line. This isn't counting things like assault or campaign rank.
I can reach cap in up to 20 different jobs on the same character. There's a reason why we use level for the most part, it's an easy general shorthand. When we talk about specific missions and quests, then we talk about story.
In single player MMO's, the only real shorthand is the single main quest line.
To quote my favorite beer commercial, "Brilliant!"
I think Dana had an RvR hangover from getting stomped by the opposing side the night before and is picking on Warhammer because of it.
You are a fool if you think WAR is failing because of your theory and I quote:
"The moment advancement became an intricate part of RvR, players did what they will always do. They sought out the most efficient means of advancement and suddenly what was once an epic, eternal WAR became two sides looking for the most mathematically efficient means possible to advance their Renown Rank.
And as we all known, that’s when fun becomes a grind… and Warhammer Online has been bleeding subscribers ever since."
Read any of the forums related to Warhammer, WAR is failing for the simple fact that the classes are completely unbalanced and pleas for balance are going unanswered. Or rather Mythic isn't taking the corrective steps necessary, to at the very least ease their subscribers minds that the changes are forthcoming. It's that simple!
While a lot of people do get altitis most people I find stick with 1 or 2 classes from MMO to MMO, specifically the mainstream and those most likely to jump ship. When they hop from one MMO to the other they usually jump into the first class that's familiar to them. I've seen it time and time again. Unfortunately with WAR, you run into a game where said person logs on to the game for the first time and jumps into said class only to find out said class in their opinion is significantly gimped. While that person may try out other classes within this new game, they will eventually out of frustration, either go back to their previous game or jump to the next game with similar said class. Doing this all the while until they find the game where the class that they choose to play is to their liking.
Will some people switch within the same game to another class, most likely an OP class? Sure, they will! They'll try it out or test the water, if you will, but it won't last. You've heard the saying, "to each their own"? Certain people are drawn to certain classes for a reason, because it fits their personality type!
To quote an earlier poster, Hokie, "I dont want to be a player in a predetermined story. I want to BE the story." 99.9% of the time that involves the player or protagonist playing the class that they initially pictured in their mind, not the class they were forced into playing due to imbalance.
WAR to me is a lot of fun, but then again I play a Bright Wizard! If you were to scan the Bright Wizard class forums I can assure you that rarely will you see anyone threatening to unsub due to being unhappy with the game. However, if you were to jump over to the Shadow Warrior forums they are overrun with posts of unhappy campers, many that are leaving and those that have left. It's not Rocket Science. Subscriber is thinking about leaving game because they are frustrated...subscriber posts message in forums that they are unhappy and planning to leave game...subscriber leaves game. We live in a, wear your heart on your sleeve society. Ninety percent of the time people will let you know exactly why they are upset, one hundred percent of the time when it involves their money (as P2P's do).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, WAR to me has tons of potential. It's obvious to me that someone over at Mythic is making poor decision after poor decision (I'd go into detail as to why I feel that way, but I'm tired of typing). If I was in a decision making position over at Mythic I guarantee WAR would be more successful than it's current state.
Your fail comment, failed.
Needed to quote this also as I whole-heartedly agree. You Sir are a gentlemen and a scholar!
Your fail comment, failed.
I really thought you were headed somewhere that I could agree with. Then you said WAR had RvR, and you thought it was fun. RvR is not BGs. WAR RvR is nothing like DAoC. One is epic, one is easymode.
My brother and I were talking last night about how WAR really let us down. I made the comment that what really hurt it was even a monkey could RvR in that game, and be successful. WAR was just plain not fun, not immersive, and lacked community that a MMO needs to thrive.
Really nice column. I never really thought about the level system as the enemy before, but now I realize how much it detracted from my gaming experience. Always worried about getting the next level so I can get the new abilities/equipment that I stop enjoying the game itself. I think I'd love to play a MMO without levels, might bring back my intrerest big time like no other MMO has kept since Asheron's Call.
I totally agree with your article Dana, especially in regards to WAR. In some respect, you can apply the same logic to late DAOC, when epic battles were pretty much gone and all that was left was grinding RPs so you could get in your guild's 8-man "A-team" rather than living off the scraps.
Top quality article
Sad thing is that we will still see 5 years of MMOs with nothing but lvls...
There is one thing that alot of ppl seem to forget tho... MMORPG is NOT the same as RPG. So.... why does every single Pay to play MMO have exactly the same crappy chat windows ? Not that MMO games should be chatting rooms.. but still...
I have played many MMOs for long time... The only thing they had in comon in the end was that I felt I wasted alot of time by playing them. But still I met alot of nice ppl while playing - even tho I met 10 times the number of jerks while at it.. And... quite few of the jerks became friends... and quite few of the friends became jerks...
I myself support a game that is about the journey... But they journey has to be worth it. Thats where alot of MMOs fail. And instead of a real journey you end up with 80 ppl afk in Allatec Valley to get gear.... And destroy the actual multiplayer content of the game while at it.
Lesson learned for many old school MMO players is... PPL are jerks - Its a game. So... dont bother to play it diffrently.
Excellent article. Well said, well written.
I honestly couldn't agree more with the message you delivered in this article.