It exist, but has no meaning, depth or reason....! I has failed my expectations. <<< 2/10 for trolling. stop posting.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.)
Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,,now we have nothing but wow clones.... chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll. They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games.
Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?"
do a little research before making wild, unfounded statements.
vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?
DOUBLE U TEE EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that game was a craptastic experiment in how many millions of dollars someone could steal before the money-men would drop the game entirely. the ONLY reason there is still a vanguard currently - is because SOE bought and rebuilt it.
seriously, do some research before making arguments. i, and many others on this board, have not only watched games come and go, but have played them.
vanguard, war, aoc, df, and quite a few other games would probably never have seen the light of day if "somebodies" had not increased the mmorpg customer base to 11 million+. yes, i included darkfall in this game... "we just need to get a game out there. there's so many millions that play mmos now... we'll HAVE to get at least 100,000 players!!!!"
i honestly don't know, or care, what your problem is... "oh there's nothing but wow clones out"... when wow itself is a clone.
really? there's nothing but wow clones out there?
roma victor
ryzom
tabula rasa <<< did you play this one? closed
hellgate: london <<< did you play this one? closed
guild wars
ultma online
anarchy online
eve online
star wars galaxies (original, cu, or nge... if more people had played original or cu; then, we wouldn't have nge... why don't you support all these non-wow clone games??)
everquest
(hmm, are you calling games which PREDATE wow - wow clones? if so - STOP POSTING)
archlord
pirates of the burning seas
(notice how i'm not including f2p games, but i am including games which have been shut down, or will soon be shut down - perhaps if people like you had supported THOSE games, more people would NOT copy wow... )
auto assault <<< another closed one... you didn't mention any of these non-wow games that were closed... why aren't you supporting the non-wow-clones???
city of heroes (and villains, since they DID release it as a separate game originally)
ddo
dark age of camelot
dungeon runners
entropia
second life
lord of the rings online (you could call this a wow clone, but most people would call you stupid for so doing)
meridian 59
neocron
requiem:bloodymare (they did finally release this game, yes?)
sword of the new world (this was originally pay to play, but people like the quoted didn't play it, so they switched to a free to play model... why aren't people supporting the non-wow clones???)
you're going to sit here and go on about how horrible wow is, and how everything is a wow clone. welp, there's a list of games i've beta'd or played or both... none of those are "wow clones".... weird, everyone that's played for any amount of time KNOW that wow is an eq clone (especially considering they employ kaplan and pardo)...
yet, you go on about how everything is a wow clone and the world is in taters because of battlenet (yes, b.net stands for battlenet) kiddies. battlenet has been around since... diablo, or diablo 2? so... it predates UO... how long exactly do you think someone is a "kid"? if battlenet has been around for 15 years... for someone to be a "kid"... they'd have had to start playing on battlenet (be it d2, starcraft, warcraft, whatever) when they were um, negative 5 years old????
which makes me think you tried some of those blizzard games, got spanked a lot, took it personal, and now have a grudge against "bnet kiddies". whatever. no one cares.
so, why is it you haven't played any of those games on my list above? or the dozens of games i did NOT list, which are nothing like wow.... or, are you now claiming that just EVERY mmo ever created is a wow clone; because, you've run out of intelligent points to support your argument?
no, really, i (as a darkfall player and a gamer) am sick and tired of emo ranting and outright lies, being presented as fact, OR being presented as opinion (it stops being opinion when the statements outrightly CONTRADICT AND/OR OPPOSE FACTUAL INFORMATION).... at that point - it's not opinion - it's just LIES.
i am sick of lies and misinformation just being thrown everywhere and "oh imma right and yousa wrunged" posts being made.
i'm so sorry that words have meanings you, with whatever background you do/don't have, don't agree with. grow up and join the rest of the world.
lots of games wouldn't see the light of day, if wow had not brought in millions of customers to this market.
seeing as you have either never heard of the list of games i've put (plus all the others listed just on this site), OR you consider them to all be "wow clones"; then, how does that make you better than the supposed example you gave, of folks only knowing wow, until they were shown "real games"... you list like 4 games total.... did you not know all these others exist? or did you think they were all wow clones?
seriously, don't set yourself as an authority on a topic and miss HUGE chunks like the above.
my post is vaporware indeed.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
what's up with all that wow-clone crap? wow was a clone of eq and various other games, the ui for example was copied from asherons call 2, like almost everything else. blizzard just did some research and produced a game that was enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players, i couldn't stand the item farming and instances but i really enjoyed pvp pre-bc in wow, it's a quality game imo, i just don't like it anymore. and both twitch based and autotargeting pvp games need skills, one button mash tactics won't work, you need to counter / silence spells, watch your timers, need a bit of movement (positioning), etc. it's not like you can press tab and roll with your head over your keyboard and win because of your character build and that oh so easy autotargeting combat system. which is more fun is a matter of preferance, skill is not debatable.
wow's success was good ... yes it was good for companies like ccp for example, i don't think they would have 300k subscribers now if blizzard didn't open the mmo market to a broader audience. yes since then there are tons of crappy games also, games that tried to follow the success of wow and failed, but overall it was all ok imo, because now we have more choice of what to play and there are more companies with more funds working on more games, which is good.
and all this craptalk about themepark or sandbox is getting quite boring too, why do some people restrict themselves to only one type of game, isn't that actually boring? if it's good and it's fun for me then i will play it, i don't care what kind of mmo genre it is, sometimes i have the feeling this is some kind of oldschool atari st / amiga or duke nukem / quake discussion, it's senseless.
MY GAME IS BETTRE TEHN JOOZ! ... yeah, then stfu and go play it.
jedi mind - heavenly divine, steadily shine in '99!
do a little research before making wild, unfounded statements. vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?
DOUBLE U TEE EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that game was a craptastic experiment in how many millions of dollars someone could steal before the money-men would drop the game entirely. the ONLY reason there is still a vanguard currently - is because SOE bought and rebuilt it.
seriously, do some research before making arguments. i, and many others on this board, have not only watched games come and go, but have played them.
vanguard, war, aoc, df, and quite a few other games would probably never have seen the light of day if "somebodies" had not increased the mmorpg customer base to 11 million+. yes, i included darkfall in this game... "we just need to get a game out there. there's so many millions that play mmos now... we'll HAVE to get at least 100,000 players!!!!" i honestly don't know, or care, what your problem is... "oh there's nothing but wow clones out"... when wow itself is a clone.
really? there's nothing but wow clones out there?
roma victor ryzom tabula rasa <<< did you play this one? closed hellgate: london <<< did you play this one? closed guild wars ultma online anarchy online eve online star wars galaxies (original, cu, or nge... if more people had played original or cu; then, we wouldn't have nge... why don't you support all these non-wow clone games??) everquest (hmm, are you calling games which PREDATE wow - wow clones? if so - STOP POSTING) archlord pirates of the burning seas (notice how i'm not including f2p games, but i am including games which have been shut down, or will soon be shut down - perhaps if people like you had supported THOSE games, more people would NOT copy wow... ) auto assault <<< another closed one... you didn't mention any of these non-wow games that were closed... why aren't you supporting the non-wow-clones??? city of heroes (and villains, since they DID release it as a separate game originally) ddo dark age of camelot dungeon runners entropia second life lord of the rings online (you could call this a wow clone, but most people would call you stupid for so doing) meridian 59 neocron requiem:bloodymare (they did finally release this game, yes?) sword of the new world (this was originally pay to play, but people like the quoted didn't play it, so they switched to a free to play model... why aren't people supporting the non-wow clones???)
you're going to sit here and go on about how horrible wow is, and how everything is a wow clone. welp, there's a list of games i've beta'd or played or both... none of those are "wow clones".... weird, everyone that's played for any amount of time KNOW that wow is an eq clone (especially considering they employ kaplan and pardo)... yet, you go on about how everything is a wow clone and the world is in taters because of battlenet (yes, b.net stands for battlenet) kiddies. battlenet has been around since... diablo, or diablo 2? so... it predates UO... how long exactly do you think someone is a "kid"? if battlenet has been around for 15 years... for someone to be a "kid"... they'd have had to start playing on battlenet (be it d2, starcraft, warcraft, whatever) when they were um, negative 5 years old???? which makes me think you tried some of those blizzard games, got spanked a lot, took it personal, and now have a grudge against "bnet kiddies". whatever. no one cares.
so, why is it you haven't played any of those games on my list above? or the dozens of games i did NOT list, which are nothing like wow.... or, are you now claiming that just EVERY mmo ever created is a wow clone; because, you've run out of intelligent points to support your argument?
no, really, i (as a darkfall player and a gamer) am sick and tired of emo ranting and outright lies, being presented as fact, OR being presented as opinion (it stops being opinion when the statements outrightly CONTRADICT AND/OR OPPOSE FACTUAL INFORMATION).... at that point - it's not opinion - it's just LIES. i am sick of lies and misinformation just being thrown everywhere and "oh imma right and yousa wrunged" posts being made. i'm so sorry that words have meanings you, with whatever background you do/don't have, don't agree with. grow up and join the rest of the world. lots of games wouldn't see the light of day, if wow had not brought in millions of customers to this market. seeing as you have either never heard of the list of games i've put (plus all the others listed just on this site), OR you consider them to all be "wow clones"; then, how does that make you better than the supposed example you gave, of folks only knowing wow, until they were shown "real games"... you list like 4 games total.... did you not know all these others exist? or did you think they were all wow clones? seriously, don't set yourself as an authority on a topic and miss HUGE chunks like the above. my post is vaporware indeed.
(Mod Edit)
Dude, you are extremely jaded of the history of MMORPGs.
Scondly, Vanguard wasn't a scam, you thinking of Horizons or Dark & Light. Vanguard had problems with subscribers, because of it ultra-high system requirments and video lag. Nothing was wrong with the game itself and everything that was promised, or held back upon release made it into the game weeks and months later.
All SOE did was reduce polygon count from the ultra detailed swords, armor & building, etc... and ease the burden on many video cards and make the game more playable on most people's systems. SOE enhanced the games with updates, etc.
Nobody stole anything, as the lead developer invested millions of his own cash and stood up to Microsoft (their publisher at the time) when they started to dumb down the game. SOE bought the game... because it was (is) one of the best MMORPG to date and Sigil just couldn't make the neccesary changes in the engine .
Secondly, "WOW clone" refers to games that came out -AFTER- World of Warcraft.... that tried to re-create it's success, by quickly offering (ie: cloning) an uber themepark experience with spoon fed, funneled content.
Ultima Online, EQ, DAOC, EVE, SWG, M59, etc.. all came out BEFORE World of Warcraft, what an imbicile..! Way to be a complete moron dude... Rotflmao !!
After playing years of UO, Everquest, DAOC, etc.. anyone can tell you that WoW was an utter joke and as I have suggested, offered no challenge and was totally Fisher Price. It was purposely aimed at children and newbies. And look what happned, children and newbies started playing in droves.
Fast forward 3 years later and even these b.net.kiddies are sick of World of Warcraft and looking for something a tad more grown up. The problem is they have no understanding of all the different game mechanics, abilities, designed, features we've seen over the last 12 years and just flood message boards with dumb ass ideas, that have no working understanding, etc.
WoW refugee's are just a massive pool of ignorance, that spews useless and ignorant banter. All they know is that World of Warcraft and they they want more of something similiar. They haven't played UO, EQ. AC, DAOC, SWG... so they have no fundmental understanding of how deep mmorpg's can go, or how PvE can really florish, etc..
You post above is disgusting, illegable and poorly written and has no logic behind it. I have played some 18 MMORPG and started beta testing back in 1996, when I was Beta Testing UO and playing M59. I beta tested EQ, DAOC, SWG, WOW, WISH, Shadowbane, EQ2, Lineage, Earth & Beyond, Planetside, Ryzom, Neocron, Horizons,...etc. I can go on and on.
Everthing since WoW has been nothing but a WOW clone... Vanguard was the last real MMORPG! More will come, but it's taken 2~3 years of ultra themeparks failures for these Developers to realize the real force behind the MMORPG market is the veterans. Not B.Net>kiddies who cannot even conceptualize their thoughts in a proper fashion.
Lastly, Darkfall has to be one of the worst game I have ever played. Every aspect of the game is pathetic, amature and broken. Gameplay is laughable as the first person style of combat is so outdated. The classless system is an utter joke, because there are no classes at all, no roles what-so-ever. Combat itself is so laughable, just watching a seige video reminds me of retards on a bus, drolling and fantasing about somthing, but doing another.
Darkfall has been on of the biggest flop I have seen in 11 years. Right up there with Horizons, Dark & Light and WISH. Tasos is inept, incompetent and a habitual lier. Darkfall is so bad, it own Developers can't face the public scrutiny.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
do a little research before making wild, unfounded statements. vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?
DOUBLE U TEE EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that game was a craptastic experiment in how many millions of dollars someone could steal before the money-men would drop the game entirely. the ONLY reason there is still a vanguard currently - is because SOE bought and rebuilt it.
seriously, do some research before making arguments. i, and many others on this board, have not only watched games come and go, but have played them.
vanguard, war, aoc, df, and quite a few other games would probably never have seen the light of day if "somebodies" had not increased the mmorpg customer base to 11 million+. yes, i included darkfall in this game... "we just need to get a game out there. there's so many millions that play mmos now... we'll HAVE to get at least 100,000 players!!!!" i honestly don't know, or care, what your problem is... "oh there's nothing but wow clones out"... when wow itself is a clone.
really? there's nothing but wow clones out there?
roma victor ryzom tabula rasa <<< did you play this one? closed hellgate: london <<< did you play this one? closed guild wars ultma online anarchy online eve online star wars galaxies (original, cu, or nge... if more people had played original or cu; then, we wouldn't have nge... why don't you support all these non-wow clone games??) everquest (hmm, are you calling games which PREDATE wow - wow clones? if so - STOP POSTING) archlord pirates of the burning seas (notice how i'm not including f2p games, but i am including games which have been shut down, or will soon be shut down - perhaps if people like you had supported THOSE games, more people would NOT copy wow... ) auto assault <<< another closed one... you didn't mention any of these non-wow games that were closed... why aren't you supporting the non-wow-clones??? city of heroes (and villains, since they DID release it as a separate game originally) ddo dark age of camelot dungeon runners entropia second life lord of the rings online (you could call this a wow clone, but most people would call you stupid for so doing) meridian 59 neocron requiem:bloodymare (they did finally release this game, yes?) sword of the new world (this was originally pay to play, but people like the quoted didn't play it, so they switched to a free to play model... why aren't people supporting the non-wow clones???)
you're going to sit here and go on about how horrible wow is, and how everything is a wow clone. welp, there's a list of games i've beta'd or played or both... none of those are "wow clones".... weird, everyone that's played for any amount of time KNOW that wow is an eq clone (especially considering they employ kaplan and pardo)... yet, you go on about how everything is a wow clone and the world is in taters because of battlenet (yes, b.net stands for battlenet) kiddies. battlenet has been around since... diablo, or diablo 2? so... it predates UO... how long exactly do you think someone is a "kid"? if battlenet has been around for 15 years... for someone to be a "kid"... they'd have had to start playing on battlenet (be it d2, starcraft, warcraft, whatever) when they were um, negative 5 years old???? which makes me think you tried some of those blizzard games, got spanked a lot, took it personal, and now have a grudge against "bnet kiddies". whatever. no one cares.
so, why is it you haven't played any of those games on my list above? or the dozens of games i did NOT list, which are nothing like wow.... or, are you now claiming that just EVERY mmo ever created is a wow clone; because, you've run out of intelligent points to support your argument?
no, really, i (as a darkfall player and a gamer) am sick and tired of emo ranting and outright lies, being presented as fact, OR being presented as opinion (it stops being opinion when the statements outrightly CONTRADICT AND/OR OPPOSE FACTUAL INFORMATION).... at that point - it's not opinion - it's just LIES. i am sick of lies and misinformation just being thrown everywhere and "oh imma right and yousa wrunged" posts being made. i'm so sorry that words have meanings you, with whatever background you do/don't have, don't agree with. grow up and join the rest of the world. lots of games wouldn't see the light of day, if wow had not brought in millions of customers to this market. seeing as you have either never heard of the list of games i've put (plus all the others listed just on this site), OR you consider them to all be "wow clones"; then, how does that make you better than the supposed example you gave, of folks only knowing wow, until they were shown "real games"... you list like 4 games total.... did you not know all these others exist? or did you think they were all wow clones? seriously, don't set yourself as an authority on a topic and miss HUGE chunks like the above. my post is vaporware indeed.
Dude, you are extremely jaded and ignorant of the history of MMORPGs. like i said, do your research before refuting what others state.
Scondly, Vanguard wasn't a scam, you thinking of Horizons or Dark & Light. Vanguard had problems with subscribers, because of it ultra-high system requirments and video lag. Nothing was wrong with the game itself and everything that was promised, or held back upon release made it into the game weeks and months later. why did microsoft drop vanguard? oh yeah, because the vanguard team (go team mcquaid) falsified little things like ooooooo actual progress made in the game. microsoft put people to watch the vg team, because the little gameplay VIDEOS they were shown, were VIDEOS, they weren't being shown a game.
All SOE did was reduce polygon count from the ultra detailed swords, armor & building, etc... and ease the burden on many video cards and make the game more playable on most people's systems. SOE enhanced the games with updates, etc. wow, did you beta vg or play when it first came out, or even follow the news surrounding WHY all of a sudden, soe was picking vg up? obviously not. this is what i'm talking about - if you weren't around; then, at least do some research. damn.
Nobody stole anything, as the lead developer invested millions of his own cash and stood up to Microsoft (their publisher at the time) when they started to dumb down the game. SOE bought the game... because it was (is) one of the best MMORPG to date and Sigil just couldn't make the neccesary changes in the engine . sorry, that's not what happened with microsoft... pretending to develop a game and only showing a video BECAUSE your development is nowhere close to the lies you're telling microsoft -- that's stealing bub. i'm sorry, what would be the corporate "doesn't sound as bad" phrase for it?
You obviously don't know jack sh!t about anything! i guess if you're actually the lying turd known as brad mcquaid, then you're correct. but reality doesn't back brad's lies.
Secondly, your an utter retard, because "WOW clone" refers to games that came out -AFTER- World of Warcraft.... that tried to re-create it's success, by quickly offering (ie: cloning) an uber themepark experience with spoon fed, funneled content. that was my point. i'm sorry you weren't able to follow my point. i was showing the PLETHORA of games which are not wow-clones, which someone seems to not know existed (based upon the ranting post someone made, which was mostly incorrect, very much like this post...)
Ultima Online, EQ, DAOC, EVE, SWG, M59, etc.. all came out BEFORE World of Warcraft you imbicile..! What a complete moron... omg! um, did you even read my post? i asked if somehow someone was thinking that games which came out before wow... were wow clones... i even put that in the post... seriously, read a post before replying to it, especially if you're making personal attacks.
After playing years of UO, Everquest, DAOC, etc.. WoW was an utter joke and as I have suggested, offered no challenge and was Fisher Price. It was purposely aimed at children and newbies. And look what happned, children and newbies started playing in droves.
Fast forward 3 years later and even these b.net.kiddies are sick of World of Warcraft and looking for something a tad more grown up. The problem is they have no understanding of all the different game mechanics, abilities, designed, features we've seen over the last 12 years and just flood message boards with dumb ass ideas, that have no working understanding, etc.
They are just a massive pool of ignorance that spews useless and ignorant banter. All they know is that World of Warcraft and they they want more of something similiar. They haven't played UO, EQ. AC, DAOC, SWG... so they have no fundmental understanding of how deep mmorpg's can go, or how PvE can really florish, etc..
You post above is disgusting, illegable and poorly written and has no logic behind it. You ignorantly assumed I'm some mouthpiece, when In actuality, I have played some 18 MMORPG and started beta testing back in 1996, when I was Beta Testing UO and playing M59. I beta tested EQ, DAOC, SWG, WOW, WISH, Shadowbane,EQ2, Lineage,Earth & Beyonf, Planetside, Ryzom, Neocron, Horizons,...etc I can go on and on.
Everthing since WoW has been nothing but a WOW clone... <<< this statement alone, completely contradicts your above paragraph. if you are such an avid mmo player; then, you would not make this statement. so, i guess we can disregard your "street creds".
Vanguard was the last real MMORPG! << no, cuz everything since wow has been nothing but a WOW clone. you said that in the sentence before this one. remember? fyi - vanguard came out after wow, as did quite a number of NON-wow-clones... do a little research before ranting and making personal attacks please.
More will come, but it's taken 2~3 years of ultra themeparks failures for these Developers to realize the real force behind the MMORPG market is the veterans. Not B.Net>kiddies who cannot even conceptualize their thoughts in a proper fashion. <<< b.net greater than kiddies? seriously? and you keep calling me stupid, even though you use "your" instead of "you're" in a few places? and other errors that people smarter than i would simply not make? those battlenet "kiddies" were playing on battlenet before UO came out... but they're kids? so, you're 80 years old then?
Lastly, Darkfall has to be one of the worst game I have ever played. Every aspect of the game is pathetic, amature and broken. Gameplay is laughable as the first person style of combat isn't even up to 5 year old games. The classless system is an utter joke, because there are no classes at all, no roles what-so-ever. Combat itself is so laughable, just watching a seige video reminds me of retards on a us drolling and fantasing about somthing, but doing another.
Darkfall has been on of the biggest flop I have seen in 11 years. Right up there with Horizons, Dark & Light and WISH. Tasos is inept, incompetent and a habitual lier. Darkfall is so bad, it own Developers can't face the public scrutiny.
You just another pew pew fanboi, who butt is hurt because you're frustrated. <<< seriously? after all the posts i've made on THIS forum alone... you're calling me a 'pew pew fanboi'? i don't even know what that is supposed to mean, in relation to darkfall. STOP TROLLING.
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
edit - highlighted in green something you obviously missed while you were personally attacking me.
don't sit here and QQ that everything is a wow clone, when there are, literally, dozens of NON-WOW-CLONES out there. that's just silly.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Vanguard was one of the last attempts to build a full MMO world. I myself played Lotro and Vanguard after WoW. While I felt a Deja Vu when playing Lotro (WoW with Frodo), it is a big tragedy what happened to Vanguard - this game could have (some say it even does now) blown Lotro, EQ2 and some more MMOs out of the water.
Maybe to some degree VG is/was for the PvE crowd, what Darkfall is for PvP.^^
what's up with all that wow-clone crap? wow was a clone of eq and various other games, the ui for example was copied from asherons call 2, like almost everything else. blizzard just did some research and produced a game that was enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players, i couldn't stand the item farming and instances but i really enjoyed pvp pre-bc in wow, it's a quality game imo, i just don't like it anymore. and both twitch based and autotargeting pvp games need skills, one button mash tactics won't work, you need to counter / silence spells, watch your timers, need a bit of movement (positioning), etc. it's not like you can press tab and roll with your head over your keyboard and win because of your character build and that oh so easy autotargeting combat system. which is more fun is a matter of preferance, skill is not debatable.
wow's success was good ... yes it was good for companies like ccp for example, i don't think they would have 300k subscribers now if blizzard didn't open the mmo market to a broader audience. yes since then there are tons of crappy games also, games that tried to follow the success of wow and failed, but overall it was all ok imo, because now we have more choice of what to play and there are more companies with more funds working on more games, which is good.
and all this craptalk about themepark or sandbox is getting quite boring too, why do some people restrict themselves to only one type of game, isn't that actually boring? if it's good and it's fun for me then i will play it, i don't care what kind of mmo genre it is, sometimes i have the feeling this is some kind of oldschool atari st / amiga or duke nukem / quake discussion, it's senseless.
MY GAME IS BETTRE TEHN JOOZ! ... yeah, then stfu and go play it.
Because the only fun playing DF is to talk like bigboys on forums, while afk macroing for a month
I believe, what Phlecher tried to say, was: Vanguard was one of the last attempts to build a full MMO world. I myself played Lotro and Vanguard after WoW. While I felt a Deja Vu when playing Lotro (WoW with Frodo), it is a big tragedy what happened to Vanguard - this game could have (some say it even does now) blown Lotro, EQ2 and some more MMOs out of the water. Maybe to some degree VG is/was for the PvE crowd, what Darkfall is for PvP.^^
Unfortunately both had a very bad launch and so far none of the two shows any hope of living up to the original aspiration.
Vanguard is a very good product that suffered from bad business plan and steep spec requirements. However, it's amazing in depth and full of nice ideas (even if not all of them are done correctly). Try the game now, it's a blast.
I believe, what Phlecher tried to say, was: Vanguard was one of the last attempts to build a full MMO world. I myself played Lotro and Vanguard after WoW. While I felt a Deja Vu when playing Lotro (WoW with Frodo), it is a big tragedy what happened to Vanguard - this game could have (some say it even does now) blown Lotro, EQ2 and some more MMOs out of the water. Maybe to some degree VG is/was for the PvE crowd, what Darkfall is for PvP.^^
Its kinda sad really.... Vanguard has superior PvP when compared to Darkfall.
Vanguard is a pretty good game but I still doubt if it had a smooth release if it would ever hold more than 250,000 players since casuals make up the vast majority of gamers and at the start Vanguard was going to be as tedious as EQ1.. Heck after 2 months of solid playtime I only had a level 19 Paladin / 21 Weapon Smith character.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.) Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,, now we have nothing but wow clones.... chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll. They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games. Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?"
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.) Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,, now we have nothing but wow clones.... chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll. They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games. Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?"
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
Loke,
Do you realize that an MMORPG with 100,000 subscribers is considered a reletive success..? That very few mmorpg's over the last 12 years have had sustained subs in that realm?
World of Warcraft is the only anomaly. You don't need 400k people in a MMORPG to have a success or for to survive. All of these latest releases have been chasing the wow business model... don't you understand this? That is why they are falling way short of expectations. Normal MMORPG's start off with 200k strong, taper off to about 125k and stay there for 4 or 5 years, then dwindle to about 40k-50k for the next 5 years.
B.net.kiddies think if it doesn't have 400k people, the game sucks.. lol. Not-to-mention, most of the b.net.kiddies have absolutely no intention of staying with a particular game for more than a few years. So these developers have to design their business plan (ie" Business model) around that fact, and cheapen the game as much as possible to make return on their invstment in just a few short months (4~8) instead of years. Because that about the attention span of these 14-19 year olds.
Newbies like easier games (ie: carebear) because they want to be able to do everthing the game has to offer and reach high-level and see the end game in just 8 months... because they already want to move on to the next game.
That is not how traditional games are built. 1st gen MMORPG's have way more depth, content and a game world that is extremely hard to solve. Not-to-mention florish in, watch your charaxcter grow into something you couldn't imagine. Taking YEARS to become the best at what you do, etc. But... (again) none of you newbies understand the perserverence it takes to develop your character this way. So, when the b.net.kiddies crash the message boards.. they are always in "wow mode" looking for instant gratification... and demanding the developers change things to suit their ultra carebear needs.
None of that has anything to do with how big of a flop Darkfall is. Aventurine simply took too long to deliver a product and when they did, it was 5 years outdated with piss-poor implamentation. Not to mention, they were led by a lead Developer who was not qualified, is a complete lier and has been hiding from the community for 8 months.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
rofls AND pwncakes -- you still haven't logically explained anything from any of your postings in this thread. yet, you keep making well, posts with untruthful information, demanding that lies be treated as truth and demanding that i explain things that you've twisted to not make sense. *laughs heartily as the silliness of lies*
once you've figured out how to respond to truthful statements, and make truthful statements of your own (you could use FOH or the copy/pastes from FOH's forums which were made on these VG forums around VG's release time...); then, maybe you'll have some credibility. just stop lying and stop trolling and make logical, truthful statements.. we players of darkfall are tired of lies and untruths and trolling on the darkfall forums.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
rofls AND pwncakes -- you still haven't logically explained anything from any of your postings in this thread. yet, you keep making well, posts with untruthful information, demanding that lies be treated as truth and demanding that i explain things that you've twisted to not make sense. *laughs heartily as the silliness of lies*
once you've figured out how to respond to truthful statements, and make truthful statements of your own (you could use FOH or the copy/pastes from FOH's forums which were made on these VG forums around VG's release time...); then, maybe you'll have some credibility. just stop lying and stop trolling and make logical, truthful statements.. we players of darkfall are tired of lies and untruths and trolling on the darkfall forums.
Frumpy Lumps, is that you..?!
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Vaporware isn't just a term to describe software that never makes it to release. It is used to describe software that isn't released to expectation or that isn't released in the state that is promised.
NO... Vaporware is a noun = Non existant product, believed to be real or secretly in production, or rumor, etc.
It has NEVER been used to to illistrate software that didn't meet expectations... lol That just means it's sh!t code, or lousy game, or even Vapor-crap...etc. Only b.net kiddies who never understood the meaning of it.. recently started using the kewl term for whatever they want...
Overblown games like Darkfall are called FLOPS...! Pseudo-software that is accompanied with a lot of lipservice to sell the game. There is a difference of when a game doesn't meet your expectations -or/and- you've been lied to by the developers.
The latter is called pseudo-ware or what I call Hype-ware, in which the developers have been untruthful and deceitful to overblow a games image or feature list, mostly with the hopes of creating excitment for a bad product in hopes of making money on an otherwise undeveloped product.
You can find this on wikipedia.
The marketing angle to "releasing" vaporware can be two-fold. On one hand the intention is to create the demand for a feature or product which did not previously exist in the market. On the other, the intent is also to judge the public reaction from the "release" and prepare a concrete marketing plan. For example, if a virtualization software's vaporware causes ripples in Digg but not in industry journals, the executives responsible may feel the need to reposition the product, or even to go back to the drawing board and redesign and reach the target audience. In some cases, vaporware may be the result of a trial balloon which "doesn't fly". Subsequently the project is quietly cancelled, sometimes before any actual development work is done.
Now I'm not calling DFO vaporware.
I am however saying that is possible for software to be released that WAS vaporware.
If I told you 10 years ago I was making an apple and when I released my apple it was really an orange, what does that make my apple? Vaporware.
They market software, then release what they were working on, and that software not be what they were marketing.
Just because Tasos was marketing a game doesn't mean that he released that game.
Now, I'm not even saying the game isn't what was marketed by tasos as a hater, you don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of people who actually enjoy the game that will say it's not what was marketted. You can go back and red the dev journals, and interviews prior to release. DFO is NOT what Tasos said it would be.
Now you tell me.
The part in red, does that sound familliar?
Because this is exactly what was, and is, going on.
People are asking Av to NOT open the NA server because EU1 will be empty.
Why would he open a new server when he knows it's going to impact the first one in a negetive way?
He's testing markets.
The DFO that was marketted by Tasos for almost 10 years never released. That game is vaporware.
It doesn't matter if "A" Darkfall Online was released. It's not "THE" Darkfall Online that people were expecting, and that's got nothing to do with us. Tasos told us one thing, and gave us something else.
How about this:
Marketing Dictionary: vaporware
Software that has been promised by a software designer but never delivered. Software marketers sometimes announce a new product before its design has been completed in order to generate anticipation and excitement or to appease dissatisfied users of a system that they hope to replace.
Marketing Dictionary doesn't say that the software is never released.
And thier definition sounds like DFO to me.
Tasos promised one thing, gave us something else, and has been replacing systems for dissatisfied users.
In the end, it's not really the software that's vaporware.
It's the PROMISE.
Most vaporware is considered to be software that's announced well before it's released, often before it's ever been begun. If you announce something that's never even started you don't actually have anything so what is the vaporware? It's the promise of a product. That promise is the vaporware more so then the actual product is.
Also from Widipedia:
The term originated with magazine reviewers in the late 1970s/early 80s, originally as parody of software marketers' tendency to attach -ware to whatever noun described the application of their products.
At that time the personal computer market was in its infancy, and it was common for computer manufacturers to supply the software that ran on them, which would rarely work on other manufacturers' machines.
Software development would often lag behind the development of the system's computer hardware. As a result, some computer manufacturers advertised extravagant software packages that allegedly came with their machines, but had not yet been completed, or in some cases, hardly begun, in an effort to sell their hardware and encourage further software development.
Or, how about this. Also from Wikipedia:
Sometimes vaporware is the result of over-optimism, and may actually materialize after a long waiting time (sometimes years). One example of this was the long-delayed Apple Macintosh word processor FullWrite Professional, announced by Ann Arbor Softworks in January 1987 for delivery that April, and actually delivered in late 1988.
^^An example of vaporware that is released.
Or:
Falls short of expectations
This category refers particularly to products that may not be inherently flawed or defective, but rather fail to fulfill the high expectations of the consumers who have been subjected to aggressive marketing campaigns and constant hype from either the company itself or the media who reported about it in the period leading to release. Delays on such products have been known to inflate to months and even years, creating often unrealistic expectations of the final version once it eventually reaches store shelves.
The biggest example of this is the computer game Daikatana, which was announced in 1997 but did not ship until 2000. Many who had waited felt the gameplay was disappointing. Ultima IX was released to savage reviews in 1999, due to numerous bugs, unbalanced gameplay and high system requirements.
Vaporware isn't JUST a product that never gets released. There's a lot more to the word then just a single definition.
BTW, some words can be a noun, a verb, an adverb, etc. etc. Not every word has a singular use.
Yes, we know that was recently added, yet it's not in the definitions as it's not recognized widely, It's more culturistic and niave. <<<all of this is completely incorrect.
how exactly would the multitude of accepted definitions of the term "vaporware", which have been in existence for a number of YEARS, which is a term defined by the people using it, which is a term subject to change as the technology changes/grows, as the definition gets expounded upon as the community using the term grows and matures... how are any of these well-established definitions -
1 culturistic... and how would this invalidate a definition?
2 niave? naive i guess? (if you're going to insult people and talk down to folks, you REALLY should spell correctly. you lose a lot of points in talking down/trolling when you typo while ranting)
95% of the people won't refer to or even recognize that definition, << proof or stfu. 95% of the people i've spoken to (about 25 people total), accept all the definitions given. i've limited the people i question to folks aged 25-40 years old, and who are involved as IT professional, telecommunications (specifically time-warner and at&t), and such professional types. no clue where your 95% number comes from. proof or stfu.
because it only used among the 14~19 crowd. <<< my handful of questions to professional adults completely disproves this statement.
Not the broader populace of PC Gamers, Tech-Heads, or users. <<completely incorrect from my questioning mentioned above.
Just up & coming Consol Gamers. <<what does this have to do with anything? i'm assuming you mean console games when you say consol? based on that assumption (for all i know Consol is a gaming system), why are you assuming that those of us who play console games do not also play computer games, nor have experience in frasi, atm, frame relay, html, java, dacs, junipers, ciscos, or any number of items associated with computers, internet and telecommunications? i don't know if you're trying to be racist/classist or whatever sort of "i'm better than console gamers" statement you're trying to make. but whatever your point is - it's full of fallacies.
People aren't retarded... stretching a 70's term to be part of a B.net.kiddie gaming colloquilism doesn't give the term credit. You can make it up all you want, doesn't make it legit it's just an urban definition, if anything. << you mention "b.net.kiddie" a lot. what experience do you have with battlenet that makes you believe people playing on battlenet for over a decade are "kiddies'? you mention battlenet a LOT on this forum. what exactly is your experience with battlenet that qualifies you as an expert on what people on battlenet are/aren't? please, don't act like you're an expert if you know nothing about an area. who plays battelenet so much as to be a "b.net.kiddie" and uses the term vaporware? in what context do these individuals use this word? where are you seeing them use it? proof or STFU about this 'b.net.kiddie' foolishness.
purple and red. please explain all the inconsistencies and over-generalizations you've made repeatedly in just THIS post.
thank you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
b,net.kiddies... they ARE the reason wow became so popular, so fast... without those bnet kiddies, the western mmo market would still be pushing 1 million concurrent subs, spread out among all mmos.
so, dictionaries added terms like "lol" as soon as everyone was using them? i mean, you are active on a programming site, with "colleages" and all... how many YEARS did it take those four dictionaries to add "lol", "brb", "bbs", "bbl", "afk" and a plethora of other words? it is no one's fault, if you are nothing like what you claim. it's no one's fault if your claims to validate your words, are meaningless in the context given.
denial of meanings of words, do not make those meanings change. willful ignorance, clinging to items which do NOT validate your claims one whit -- none of this changes factual information.
NEWS FLASH -- WORDS AND TERMS HAVE MULTIPLE MEANINGS.
your not wanting to believe the news flash, does not invalidate the truth behind the news flash; but it does make you seem silly to everyone else.
we've had this discussion quite a few times on THIS forum. feel free to necro threads to reply there. those clinging to one single solitary definition of vaporware, and twisting whatever, so that they could feel "superiour" in saying "darkfall isn't vaporware" -- have been on the losing side of every vaporware discussion on this forum.
this argument has already ended many times. if someone is willfully ignorant of commonly accepted definitions of the term vaporware WHICH HAVE EXISTED FOR YEARS -- then, we can not help you.
troll someplace else; because, we darkfall players are sick and tired of lies, inaccurate information, and other foolishness flooding the darkfall forums.
Your post is vapoware..
It exist, but has no meaning, depth or reason....! I has failed my expectations.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.)
Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,, now we have nothing but wow clones.... <<< "now we have nothing but wow clones". i'm ONLY reading what you typed... now we have nothing but wow clones... what are you saying here? that now we have nothing but wow clones? so... does that mean you're saying that now... we have wow clones and nothing other than wow clones? so, you make a statement that SAYS "we have nothing but wow clones"... and i made a reply disputing that statement. and you called me stupid.
chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll.
<< you talk about "ignorance plaque" below, and you blame everything on "b.net.kiddies". what makes you an expert on battlenet and who plays on battlent, to the point that you keep bringing up battlenet players? what is your background here?
They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games.
Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?" << what are you talking about? "b.net.kiddies" don't know about any games other than wow? seriously, if you're making this assertion, you NEED to qualify it. i mean, you make the statment that NOW all we have is wow clones... but you talk about battlenet players (some who have played since diablo.... which predates UO.... but they're 'kiddies'... wtf over), but you make all these other statements. i mean, even if we just look at games since vanguard... there's a TON of games released that are not even close to being a 'wow clone'. but you don't state that. you state that vg was the 'last attempt at a reall mmorpg' and follow that with 'now we have nothing but wow clones'... but, there's a lot more games out NOW, that have nothing to do with being a 'wow clone'.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.) Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,, now we have nothing but wow clones.... chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll. They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games. Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?"
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
Loke,
Do you realize that an MMORPG with 100,000 subscribers is considered a reletive success..? That very few mmorpg's over the last 12 years have had sustained subs in that realm? <<< we're talking about darkfall. darkfall has no where near 100k subs.
World of Warcraft is the only anomaly. You don't need 400k people in a MMORPG to have a success or for to survive. All of these latest releases have been chasing the wow business model... don't you understand this? That is why they are falling way short of expectations. Normal MMORPG's start off with 200k strong, taper off to about 125k and stay there for 4 or 5 years, then dwindle to about 40k-50k for the next 5 years.
B.net.kiddies think if it doesn't have 400k people, the game sucks.. lol. << what is your obsession with battlenet? do they defeat you in every starcraft game you play on there? 11 million battlenet players did not wake up one day and say "hey let's play wow". lots of people with nothing to do with battlenet HAVE come in over the years wow has been out. matter of fact, i can not think of anyone i have played with (outside of maybe 5 people) that ever even mentioned battlenet. the lol is that you mention "b.net.kiddies" in every post, as if they have ruined your life. wtf over.
Not-to-mention, most of the b.net.kiddies have absolutely no intention of staying with a particular game for more than a few years. << again blanket overgeneralizations. what are you playing that you are plagued with "b.net.kiddies"; because, quite honestly, i've heard battlenet games brought up more when i'm chilling in eve, than i have in all other games combined. proof with your over generalizations or stfu.
So these developers have to design their business plan (ie" Business model) around that fact, and cheapen the game as much as possible to make return on their invstment in just a few short months (4~8) instead of years. Because that about the attention span of these 14-19 year olds. << battlenet has been around for about 15 years... the last blizzard north game was made... what... 6 years ago? but it's been around for OVER A DECADE... where are you getting your statistics that battlenet players are 14-19 years old? everything you state about battlenet is completely suspect. why do you keep harassing battlenet players in your posts?
Newbies like easier games (ie: carebear) because they want to be able to do everthing the game has to offer and reach high-level and see the end game in just 8 months... because they already want to move on to the next game. <<< proof or stfu. from playing a variety of games (i normally am subbed to 2-4 games on any given month) i can emphatically state that your confusing "newbies" with "easier games" and "easier games" with "carebear" is just absolutely FALSE. proof or stfu. people coming from FPS, or BATTLENET are anything BUT carebear... battlenet is nonstop pvp - that's all you do on battlenet - fight other players!!!!!! you go on and on about battlenet, but you seem to not know what games are played there... if so, please explain your line of thinking here.
That is not how traditional games are built. 1st gen MMORPG's have way more depth, content and a game world that is extremely hard to solve. <<< hard to solve? what was hard to SOLVE in meridian, uo, or eq? what is hard to SOLVE in any mmo? proof or...
Not-to-mention florish in, watch your charaxcter grow into something you couldn't imagine. Taking YEARS to become the best at what you do, etc. <<< UO has a skill cap of.. 700? (more if you're a vet)... if you only GM skills (100), you can have 7 skills at 100... if you're taking YEARS to become the best at ANYTHING in UO... you have no idea how to play the game. using UO as an example, since you're talking about 1st generation MMOs...
But... (again) none of you newbies understand the perserverence it takes to develop your character this way. <<no idea of how to grind anatomy on a town guard when anatomy first became important to melee'ers in UO? no idea how to grind magic resistance by dancing thru fire/poison walls? what are you talking about? it takes longer to hit max level, grind reputations to exalted, and get geared in anything close to the best pvp AND pve gear in wow --- than it EVER took to grind up skills/levels in 1st generation mmo games. what are you talking about indeed... proof or stfu (or do you, the veteran of everything, not know this old standard when making claims ... that you ALWAYS proof or stfu?? i mean, you really don't validate any statements you make ever on this board... so seriously, if you're a veteran of the internets and gamings... you should very much be familiar with the decades' established term - proof or stfu. so please back up some of these inaccurate statements with some proof.
So, when the b.net.kiddies crash the message boards.. they are always in "wow mode" looking for instant gratification... and demanding the developers change things to suit their ultra carebear needs. <<< you have never played wow have you? how instantly do you max out your chosen trade skills? what about the bonus skills, i.e. fishing, first aid, etc? how quickly are those maxed out? how many factions have you gotten exalted rep with? do you have the owlbear elder that you can summon? what about that steed where you kill a bazillion cold weather beasts and bring them to that hunter guy until he gives you a big kitty? what pvp gear have you worked up to? what tier/level of pve/raid gear have you worked up to? wow mode involves a CRAPTON of grinding... long, boring assed grinds... the constant boring grind and 3 monthly new "carrot on a stick" to chase, is why i, and a number of irl friends, tired of wow a long time ago. it's not that it's too easy... it's that it's too grindy and that everything in wow becomes a damn farm to max.
again... if people are coming from battlenet -- ALL YOU DO ON BATTLENET IS PVP. unless YOU are maybe playing d2 in single player mode or something... starcraft and warcraft ON BATTLENET... are nonstop PVP.... how are people who play battlenet... carebeasrs? you either have no idea of what goes on b.net (battlenet), OR carebear does not mean what you think it means.
None of that has anything to do with how big of a flop Darkfall is. Aventurine simply took too long to deliver a product and when they did, it was 5 years outdated with piss-poor implamentation. Not to mention, they were led by a lead Developer who was not qualified, is a complete lier and has been hiding from the community for 8 months.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Bro, until you know how to respond to a peson's post without having to resort to childish line-item veto argueing, I'll not respond to specific comments, because they are just trolling. Though, I just keep laughing at people who constantly cannot frame their own ideas as whole and complete ideas/posts.
Secondly, why do you ask a question, make a statment, then demand proof as if I was the one asking it..? Who are you talking to, yourself?
Third, "b.net.kiddies" is an all encompassing term meaning newbie who spews banter on message boards. Because that is what the first gen kiddies did. "Wow'tard" is the same thing. Of coase you already knew this, yet you rambled on, and on and on... again, making yourself look as trying "to hard" to win an argument, instead of debating the topic at hand.
BTW... all the "proof or stfu" comments indicate your ignorance of mmorpgs. As you cannot even identify many of my posts meaning -and- when you try and refute them, you erroneously stipulate what I am talking about, (when I am not). Just so you can make an off the wall rubuttal to ideas I don't hold. It funny as sh!t reading your posts.. as you've clearly missed the marked and most of what I have said obvisouly went way over your head.
I have several seperate points I am making, you seem to think they are related and keep mixing and matching. Learn to understand what PARAGRAPHS mean dude... you posts are hilarious!
ps:
What I do know is that, you have no concept of pre-wow and don't understand why the mojority of the people refer to World of Warcraft as Fisher Price. Because after playing games like Everquest for 5 years, WoW was like playing with a Tonka Truck. Grinding in that game was a walk in the park compaired to previous games. WoW set the standard for Themepark funneled content... and everyone followed the same path... you were just another lemming. No different than the guy behind you.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I really feel sorry for all those sadomasochist old-school that belive that if a game does not need to be played 10 hours a day is because it has not depth, content, a game world that is extremely hard to solve and your characters will not florish enough.
Over complex, over difficult does not mean better or funnier.
Loke, Do you realize that an MMORPG with 100,000 subscribers is considered a reletive success..? That very few mmorpg's over the last 12 years have had sustained subs in that realm?
World of Warcraft is the only anomaly. You don't need 400k people in a MMORPG to have a success or for to survive. All of these latest releases have been chasing the wow business model... don't you understand this? That is why they are falling way short of expectations. Normal MMORPG's start off with 200k strong, taper off to about 125k and stay there for 4 or 5 years, then dwindle to about 40k-50k for the next 5 years.
First of all, I don't play Wow, my favorite PvP game is Guildwars.
But lets not get personal here.
Anyways, a 100K players for a game that costs so much to develop is really not a success. Most MMOs do need a lot of players just to keep running, the companies do need to get in cash to pay for bandwidth, servers, development costs, salarys and more. The fact is that MMOs costs a lot more than any other game to make.
DF did not costs as much to make as say WAR (I seems to heard the number 20M dollars for DF but that was here so it can be totally off) but they still need enough players to keep it running and updated.
Large companys like SOE can keep a game with a smaller population up and running because they have enough cash and share many resources among their different games but small companies can't afford that.
As for Wow being the most succesful game, that is not truth either, Perfect world have 10 times the players and make more money than Blizzard, but since almost all of them is in asia you don't hear so much about it.
WAR do need 250K players to not lose any money. It costed more than DF to make do even if half the money from the subs go into keeping the game running DF still will need a lot less subs. But I still don't think it is actually less than a 100K.
DF have less than 20K, and so does everyone here agree, what I sad is that no MMO can be runned for that money without loosing a lot of money every month. This have nothing to do with battlenet, carebears or anything else, it is just simple economy. They cant continue losing money all the time, if they don't get those 100K players or whatever their number is to stop losing players the game will be gone.
Yeah DFs number (to go even) can actually also be 75K or 125K but it must be somewhere around that, it costs a lot of money to run a game and a company like AVI cant do it just for fun while losing money.
And do I have to point out that you sad that "normal" MMOs start of with 200K players? If DF did that the game would be doing rather good. It do however have less than a tenth of that.
Aventurine have stated in 2 separate interviews their development cost for DF was under 10mill euros. there's a thread on the front page that argues for 18K subs for DF now. at a 50% retention rate (quite high), that's 36K units sold. at a 30% retenton rate, which is probably more realistic for DF, that's 60K units sold.
60K units @ 42 € == ~2.5mill €, so a 1/4 to a 1/3rd of their devel cost upfront already.
18K subs @ 12 €/month = €216K/month
i'd think they would be pretty happy with those numbers. they still haven't spent anything on regular advertising, so they must be pretty happy.
if the US server sells out as fast as EU did then they will have recouped 1/2 - 2/3rds of their development cost.
Aventurine have stated in 2 separate interviews their development cost for DF was under 10mill euros. there's a thread on the front page that argues for 18K subs for DF now. at a 50% retention rate (quite high), that's 36K units sold. at a 30% retenton rate, which is probably more realistic for DF, that's 60K units sold.
60K units @ 42 € == ~2.5mill €, so a 1/4 to a 1/3rd of their devel cost upfront already. 18K subs @ 12 €/month = €216K/month
i'd think they would be pretty happy with those numbers. they still haven't spent anything on regular advertising, so they must be pretty happy.
if the US server sells out as fast as EU did then they will have recouped 1/2 - 2/3rds of their development cost.
what about taxes (was around 25% for companies in 2008), bills, vages and server rent?
Comments
Originally posted by Phelcher
Your post is vapoware..
It exist, but has no meaning, depth or reason....! I has failed my expectations. <<< 2/10 for trolling. stop posting.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.)
Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,,now we have nothing but wow clones.... chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll. They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games.
Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?"
do a little research before making wild, unfounded statements.
vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?
DOUBLE U TEE EFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that game was a craptastic experiment in how many millions of dollars someone could steal before the money-men would drop the game entirely. the ONLY reason there is still a vanguard currently - is because SOE bought and rebuilt it.
seriously, do some research before making arguments. i, and many others on this board, have not only watched games come and go, but have played them.
vanguard, war, aoc, df, and quite a few other games would probably never have seen the light of day if "somebodies" had not increased the mmorpg customer base to 11 million+. yes, i included darkfall in this game... "we just need to get a game out there. there's so many millions that play mmos now... we'll HAVE to get at least 100,000 players!!!!"
i honestly don't know, or care, what your problem is... "oh there's nothing but wow clones out"... when wow itself is a clone.
really? there's nothing but wow clones out there?
roma victor
ryzom
tabula rasa <<< did you play this one? closed
hellgate: london <<< did you play this one? closed
guild wars
ultma online
anarchy online
eve online
star wars galaxies (original, cu, or nge... if more people had played original or cu; then, we wouldn't have nge... why don't you support all these non-wow clone games??)
everquest
(hmm, are you calling games which PREDATE wow - wow clones? if so - STOP POSTING)
archlord
pirates of the burning seas
(notice how i'm not including f2p games, but i am including games which have been shut down, or will soon be shut down - perhaps if people like you had supported THOSE games, more people would NOT copy wow... )
auto assault <<< another closed one... you didn't mention any of these non-wow games that were closed... why aren't you supporting the non-wow-clones???
city of heroes (and villains, since they DID release it as a separate game originally)
ddo
dark age of camelot
dungeon runners
entropia
second life
lord of the rings online (you could call this a wow clone, but most people would call you stupid for so doing)
meridian 59
neocron
requiem:bloodymare (they did finally release this game, yes?)
sword of the new world (this was originally pay to play, but people like the quoted didn't play it, so they switched to a free to play model... why aren't people supporting the non-wow clones???)
you're going to sit here and go on about how horrible wow is, and how everything is a wow clone. welp, there's a list of games i've beta'd or played or both... none of those are "wow clones".... weird, everyone that's played for any amount of time KNOW that wow is an eq clone (especially considering they employ kaplan and pardo)...
yet, you go on about how everything is a wow clone and the world is in taters because of battlenet (yes, b.net stands for battlenet) kiddies. battlenet has been around since... diablo, or diablo 2? so... it predates UO... how long exactly do you think someone is a "kid"? if battlenet has been around for 15 years... for someone to be a "kid"... they'd have had to start playing on battlenet (be it d2, starcraft, warcraft, whatever) when they were um, negative 5 years old????
which makes me think you tried some of those blizzard games, got spanked a lot, took it personal, and now have a grudge against "bnet kiddies". whatever. no one cares.
so, why is it you haven't played any of those games on my list above? or the dozens of games i did NOT list, which are nothing like wow.... or, are you now claiming that just EVERY mmo ever created is a wow clone; because, you've run out of intelligent points to support your argument?
no, really, i (as a darkfall player and a gamer) am sick and tired of emo ranting and outright lies, being presented as fact, OR being presented as opinion (it stops being opinion when the statements outrightly CONTRADICT AND/OR OPPOSE FACTUAL INFORMATION).... at that point - it's not opinion - it's just LIES.
i am sick of lies and misinformation just being thrown everywhere and "oh imma right and yousa wrunged" posts being made.
i'm so sorry that words have meanings you, with whatever background you do/don't have, don't agree with. grow up and join the rest of the world.
lots of games wouldn't see the light of day, if wow had not brought in millions of customers to this market.
seeing as you have either never heard of the list of games i've put (plus all the others listed just on this site), OR you consider them to all be "wow clones"; then, how does that make you better than the supposed example you gave, of folks only knowing wow, until they were shown "real games"... you list like 4 games total.... did you not know all these others exist? or did you think they were all wow clones?
seriously, don't set yourself as an authority on a topic and miss HUGE chunks like the above.
my post is vaporware indeed.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
what's up with all that wow-clone crap? wow was a clone of eq and various other games, the ui for example was copied from asherons call 2, like almost everything else. blizzard just did some research and produced a game that was enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players, i couldn't stand the item farming and instances but i really enjoyed pvp pre-bc in wow, it's a quality game imo, i just don't like it anymore. and both twitch based and autotargeting pvp games need skills, one button mash tactics won't work, you need to counter / silence spells, watch your timers, need a bit of movement (positioning), etc. it's not like you can press tab and roll with your head over your keyboard and win because of your character build and that oh so easy autotargeting combat system. which is more fun is a matter of preferance, skill is not debatable.
wow's success was good ... yes it was good for companies like ccp for example, i don't think they would have 300k subscribers now if blizzard didn't open the mmo market to a broader audience. yes since then there are tons of crappy games also, games that tried to follow the success of wow and failed, but overall it was all ok imo, because now we have more choice of what to play and there are more companies with more funds working on more games, which is good.
and all this craptalk about themepark or sandbox is getting quite boring too, why do some people restrict themselves to only one type of game, isn't that actually boring? if it's good and it's fun for me then i will play it, i don't care what kind of mmo genre it is, sometimes i have the feeling this is some kind of oldschool atari st / amiga or duke nukem / quake discussion, it's senseless.
MY GAME IS BETTRE TEHN JOOZ! ... yeah, then stfu and go play it.
jedi mind - heavenly divine, steadily shine in '99!
(Mod Edit)
Dude, you are extremely jaded of the history of MMORPGs.
Scondly, Vanguard wasn't a scam, you thinking of Horizons or Dark & Light. Vanguard had problems with subscribers, because of it ultra-high system requirments and video lag. Nothing was wrong with the game itself and everything that was promised, or held back upon release made it into the game weeks and months later.
All SOE did was reduce polygon count from the ultra detailed swords, armor & building, etc... and ease the burden on many video cards and make the game more playable on most people's systems. SOE enhanced the games with updates, etc.
Nobody stole anything, as the lead developer invested millions of his own cash and stood up to Microsoft (their publisher at the time) when they started to dumb down the game. SOE bought the game... because it was (is) one of the best MMORPG to date and Sigil just couldn't make the neccesary changes in the engine .
Secondly, "WOW clone" refers to games that came out -AFTER- World of Warcraft.... that tried to re-create it's success, by quickly offering (ie: cloning) an uber themepark experience with spoon fed, funneled content.
Ultima Online, EQ, DAOC, EVE, SWG, M59, etc.. all came out BEFORE World of Warcraft, what an imbicile..! Way to be a complete moron dude... Rotflmao !!
After playing years of UO, Everquest, DAOC, etc.. anyone can tell you that WoW was an utter joke and as I have suggested, offered no challenge and was totally Fisher Price. It was purposely aimed at children and newbies. And look what happned, children and newbies started playing in droves.
Fast forward 3 years later and even these b.net.kiddies are sick of World of Warcraft and looking for something a tad more grown up. The problem is they have no understanding of all the different game mechanics, abilities, designed, features we've seen over the last 12 years and just flood message boards with dumb ass ideas, that have no working understanding, etc.
WoW refugee's are just a massive pool of ignorance, that spews useless and ignorant banter. All they know is that World of Warcraft and they they want more of something similiar. They haven't played UO, EQ. AC, DAOC, SWG... so they have no fundmental understanding of how deep mmorpg's can go, or how PvE can really florish, etc..
You post above is disgusting, illegable and poorly written and has no logic behind it. I have played some 18 MMORPG and started beta testing back in 1996, when I was Beta Testing UO and playing M59. I beta tested EQ, DAOC, SWG, WOW, WISH, Shadowbane, EQ2, Lineage, Earth & Beyond, Planetside, Ryzom, Neocron, Horizons,...etc. I can go on and on.
Everthing since WoW has been nothing but a WOW clone... Vanguard was the last real MMORPG! More will come, but it's taken 2~3 years of ultra themeparks failures for these Developers to realize the real force behind the MMORPG market is the veterans. Not B.Net>kiddies who cannot even conceptualize their thoughts in a proper fashion.
Lastly, Darkfall has to be one of the worst game I have ever played. Every aspect of the game is pathetic, amature and broken. Gameplay is laughable as the first person style of combat is so outdated. The classless system is an utter joke, because there are no classes at all, no roles what-so-ever. Combat itself is so laughable, just watching a seige video reminds me of retards on a bus, drolling and fantasing about somthing, but doing another.
Darkfall has been on of the biggest flop I have seen in 11 years. Right up there with Horizons, Dark & Light and WISH. Tasos is inept, incompetent and a habitual lier. Darkfall is so bad, it own Developers can't face the public scrutiny.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Dude, you are extremely jaded and ignorant of the history of MMORPGs. like i said, do your research before refuting what others state.
Scondly, Vanguard wasn't a scam, you thinking of Horizons or Dark & Light. Vanguard had problems with subscribers, because of it ultra-high system requirments and video lag. Nothing was wrong with the game itself and everything that was promised, or held back upon release made it into the game weeks and months later. why did microsoft drop vanguard? oh yeah, because the vanguard team (go team mcquaid) falsified little things like ooooooo actual progress made in the game. microsoft put people to watch the vg team, because the little gameplay VIDEOS they were shown, were VIDEOS, they weren't being shown a game.
All SOE did was reduce polygon count from the ultra detailed swords, armor & building, etc... and ease the burden on many video cards and make the game more playable on most people's systems. SOE enhanced the games with updates, etc. wow, did you beta vg or play when it first came out, or even follow the news surrounding WHY all of a sudden, soe was picking vg up? obviously not. this is what i'm talking about - if you weren't around; then, at least do some research. damn.
Nobody stole anything, as the lead developer invested millions of his own cash and stood up to Microsoft (their publisher at the time) when they started to dumb down the game. SOE bought the game... because it was (is) one of the best MMORPG to date and Sigil just couldn't make the neccesary changes in the engine . sorry, that's not what happened with microsoft... pretending to develop a game and only showing a video BECAUSE your development is nowhere close to the lies you're telling microsoft -- that's stealing bub. i'm sorry, what would be the corporate "doesn't sound as bad" phrase for it?
You obviously don't know jack sh!t about anything! i guess if you're actually the lying turd known as brad mcquaid, then you're correct. but reality doesn't back brad's lies.
Secondly, your an utter retard, because "WOW clone" refers to games that came out -AFTER- World of Warcraft.... that tried to re-create it's success, by quickly offering (ie: cloning) an uber themepark experience with spoon fed, funneled content. that was my point. i'm sorry you weren't able to follow my point. i was showing the PLETHORA of games which are not wow-clones, which someone seems to not know existed (based upon the ranting post someone made, which was mostly incorrect, very much like this post...)
Ultima Online, EQ, DAOC, EVE, SWG, M59, etc.. all came out BEFORE World of Warcraft you imbicile..! What a complete moron... omg! um, did you even read my post? i asked if somehow someone was thinking that games which came out before wow... were wow clones... i even put that in the post... seriously, read a post before replying to it, especially if you're making personal attacks.
After playing years of UO, Everquest, DAOC, etc.. WoW was an utter joke and as I have suggested, offered no challenge and was Fisher Price. It was purposely aimed at children and newbies. And look what happned, children and newbies started playing in droves.
Fast forward 3 years later and even these b.net.kiddies are sick of World of Warcraft and looking for something a tad more grown up. The problem is they have no understanding of all the different game mechanics, abilities, designed, features we've seen over the last 12 years and just flood message boards with dumb ass ideas, that have no working understanding, etc.
They are just a massive pool of ignorance that spews useless and ignorant banter. All they know is that World of Warcraft and they they want more of something similiar. They haven't played UO, EQ. AC, DAOC, SWG... so they have no fundmental understanding of how deep mmorpg's can go, or how PvE can really florish, etc..
You post above is disgusting, illegable and poorly written and has no logic behind it. You ignorantly assumed I'm some mouthpiece, when In actuality, I have played some 18 MMORPG and started beta testing back in 1996, when I was Beta Testing UO and playing M59. I beta tested EQ, DAOC, SWG, WOW, WISH, Shadowbane,EQ2, Lineage,Earth & Beyonf, Planetside, Ryzom, Neocron, Horizons,...etc I can go on and on.
Everthing since WoW has been nothing but a WOW clone... <<< this statement alone, completely contradicts your above paragraph. if you are such an avid mmo player; then, you would not make this statement. so, i guess we can disregard your "street creds".
Vanguard was the last real MMORPG! << no, cuz everything since wow has been nothing but a WOW clone. you said that in the sentence before this one. remember? fyi - vanguard came out after wow, as did quite a number of NON-wow-clones... do a little research before ranting and making personal attacks please.
More will come, but it's taken 2~3 years of ultra themeparks failures for these Developers to realize the real force behind the MMORPG market is the veterans. Not B.Net>kiddies who cannot even conceptualize their thoughts in a proper fashion. <<< b.net greater than kiddies? seriously? and you keep calling me stupid, even though you use "your" instead of "you're" in a few places? and other errors that people smarter than i would simply not make? those battlenet "kiddies" were playing on battlenet before UO came out... but they're kids? so, you're 80 years old then?
Lastly, Darkfall has to be one of the worst game I have ever played. Every aspect of the game is pathetic, amature and broken. Gameplay is laughable as the first person style of combat isn't even up to 5 year old games. The classless system is an utter joke, because there are no classes at all, no roles what-so-ever. Combat itself is so laughable, just watching a seige video reminds me of retards on a us drolling and fantasing about somthing, but doing another.
Darkfall has been on of the biggest flop I have seen in 11 years. Right up there with Horizons, Dark & Light and WISH. Tasos is inept, incompetent and a habitual lier. Darkfall is so bad, it own Developers can't face the public scrutiny.
You just another pew pew fanboi, who butt is hurt because you're frustrated. <<< seriously? after all the posts i've made on THIS forum alone... you're calling me a 'pew pew fanboi'? i don't even know what that is supposed to mean, in relation to darkfall. STOP TROLLING.
wow, i can't even reply to the rest... maybe you should read my post before commenting on it. i'm sorry that you either didn't read it, or that you didn't understand it, or mcquaid, or well, most of what you're typing about. do your research, get factual information, post about that factual information and you'll get much better replies and people will take your posts seriously.
thanks for the personal attacks. i like being called stupid by someone that misquotes and doesn't understand what i post.
edit - highlighted in green something you obviously missed while you were personally attacking me.
don't sit here and QQ that everything is a wow clone, when there are, literally, dozens of NON-WOW-CLONES out there. that's just silly.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I believe, what Phlecher tried to say, was:
Vanguard was one of the last attempts to build a full MMO world. I myself played Lotro and Vanguard after WoW. While I felt a Deja Vu when playing Lotro (WoW with Frodo), it is a big tragedy what happened to Vanguard - this game could have (some say it even does now) blown Lotro, EQ2 and some more MMOs out of the water.
Maybe to some degree VG is/was for the PvE crowd, what Darkfall is for PvP.^^
Because the only fun playing DF is to talk like bigboys on forums, while afk macroing for a month
Unfortunately both had a very bad launch and so far none of the two shows any hope of living up to the original aspiration.
Vanguard is a very good product that suffered from bad business plan and steep spec requirements. However, it's amazing in depth and full of nice ideas (even if not all of them are done correctly). Try the game now, it's a blast.
Honestly,
Giving a good estimate. Their is roughly 1500-2000 players on at a time in the world.
Though there could be 500-1000+ more but a good portion of those are probably alts since alot of people have atleast 1 alt.
Its kinda sad really.... Vanguard has superior PvP when compared to Darkfall.
Vanguard is a pretty good game but I still doubt if it had a smooth release if it would ever hold more than 250,000 players since casuals make up the vast majority of gamers and at the start Vanguard was going to be as tedious as EQ1.. Heck after 2 months of solid playtime I only had a level 19 Paladin / 21 Weapon Smith character.
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
Loke,
Do you realize that an MMORPG with 100,000 subscribers is considered a reletive success..? That very few mmorpg's over the last 12 years have had sustained subs in that realm?
World of Warcraft is the only anomaly. You don't need 400k people in a MMORPG to have a success or for to survive. All of these latest releases have been chasing the wow business model... don't you understand this? That is why they are falling way short of expectations. Normal MMORPG's start off with 200k strong, taper off to about 125k and stay there for 4 or 5 years, then dwindle to about 40k-50k for the next 5 years.
B.net.kiddies think if it doesn't have 400k people, the game sucks.. lol. Not-to-mention, most of the b.net.kiddies have absolutely no intention of staying with a particular game for more than a few years. So these developers have to design their business plan (ie" Business model) around that fact, and cheapen the game as much as possible to make return on their invstment in just a few short months (4~8) instead of years. Because that about the attention span of these 14-19 year olds.
Newbies like easier games (ie: carebear) because they want to be able to do everthing the game has to offer and reach high-level and see the end game in just 8 months... because they already want to move on to the next game.
That is not how traditional games are built. 1st gen MMORPG's have way more depth, content and a game world that is extremely hard to solve. Not-to-mention florish in, watch your charaxcter grow into something you couldn't imagine. Taking YEARS to become the best at what you do, etc. But... (again) none of you newbies understand the perserverence it takes to develop your character this way. So, when the b.net.kiddies crash the message boards.. they are always in "wow mode" looking for instant gratification... and demanding the developers change things to suit their ultra carebear needs.
None of that has anything to do with how big of a flop Darkfall is. Aventurine simply took too long to deliver a product and when they did, it was 5 years outdated with piss-poor implamentation. Not to mention, they were led by a lead Developer who was not qualified, is a complete lier and has been hiding from the community for 8 months.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
rofls AND pwncakes -- you still haven't logically explained anything from any of your postings in this thread. yet, you keep making well, posts with untruthful information, demanding that lies be treated as truth and demanding that i explain things that you've twisted to not make sense. *laughs heartily as the silliness of lies*
once you've figured out how to respond to truthful statements, and make truthful statements of your own (you could use FOH or the copy/pastes from FOH's forums which were made on these VG forums around VG's release time...); then, maybe you'll have some credibility. just stop lying and stop trolling and make logical, truthful statements.. we players of darkfall are tired of lies and untruths and trolling on the darkfall forums.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I didn't misunderstand anything! Research? I lived threw the last 25 years of computer gaming. People write books about what I know and have done. You just ignorantly attacked me, with some idle banter and vehemence, that was just laughable and illustrative of how ignorant you are.
And I quote: " vanguard last attempt at a real mmorpg? you mean, the game that the DEVS PRETENDED TO CREATE UNTIL SUCH A TIME AS THEY WERE DROPPED????? THE GAME THAT THE DEVS WHINED AND COMPLAINED WHEN THE PEOPLE GIVING THEM MONEY INSISTED ON HAVING PEOPLE ON THE INSIDE, TO FIND OUT WHY NO PROGRESS WAS BEING MADE? you mean vanguard, the scam BEFORE darkfall????? THAT is the last attempt at a real mmorpg?"
What is that^^ nonsense..?
Care to explain that statement? As we both know you have no idea what you are talking about. As Sigil was well respected and close with their community. Pretend to create what..?
Secondly, it was YOU, who went on a 30-line rant about wow clones, when you had no idea what you were even talking about.
And now I've misqouted you and somehow don't understand you own words..? Please explain them then, we are all waiting!LOl...
stop trolling.
stop making wild claims, which your own statements contradict.
go back and reread all the posts from today. and i do deeply apologize if you do not remember ANYTHING that came out, when everyone and their mother were researching wtf was going on with mcquaid and vg.
but hey, nothing but wow clones have come out since wow... or did you go back and edit that statement? so, um, why are you going on about vanguard (which came out after wow... so by your own statements, it must therefore be a wow clone) being the only real mmo out there?
did you notice the line i highlighted in green earlier? it points out that you seem to not know what a wow clone is, along with all types of games which are NOT wow clones... even though you assert that only wow clones have been released SINCE wow.
i didn't even bring up pirates of the caribbean, toontown, or quite a few other mmos created post wow.
read and reply to what has been typed today. ONLY the words typed.... please START doing that. mmmkay?
and stop with the childish personal attacks.
if you honestly don't know the history with vg/microsoft; then, all your claims to being this great whatever - well, you're not living up to it.
Hrmmm... did you just edit an older post (post #133) to respond to points I made in that exact post...? *laughing out loud*
If that isn't the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. Then, you go and add in a comment that suggest that I am the one who doesn't know what they are talking about, Yet, you are the person who chastized me for 35 lines about how UO, EQ, DAOC, Ryzom aren't WOW clones...etc. When nobody ever said they were !! *duh*
So what are you talking about..? Who were you talking too..? Why 30+ lines of banter about how UO, EQ...etc aren't wow clones..? Who ever said they were..? I said VANGUARD, which came out 3 years after & among the troves of F2P and wow clones.
My comments are all right there black and white... if you want to go back and see what a dolt you've been. I mean, to have written all that nonesense, only to have it flop in your face... as you are now recanting your statement and backtracking with your last few posts, only illustrates you either didn't read my posts properly or you have no knowledge and thought you could spewn BS and not get caught.
Kinda makes you look bad...
Secondly, prove that Vanguard was a sham ..! Back up those statements about Microsoft & Sigil ..!
Microsoft didn't drop Vanguard and it wasn't because of anything you suggest. It was because Microsoft was delaying the release of Vista and DirectX 10.0 . And Vanguard was suppose to be Microsoft's first DX10 game, but Nvidia and ATI said they were 9 months behind on their DX10 cards. Sigil couldn't and didn't want to alter their business model to compensate for such an extended release.
The was several other fundamental issues between to two and they parted on good terms. Not because of the idiocy you've been spewing. What a great conspiricay theory though... *laugh*
Lastly, this is a Darkfall forum and we should be focused on that aspect. I havn't lost sight of that and as much as you like to play the game and love it... it's vapoware come October..!
rofls AND pwncakes -- you still haven't logically explained anything from any of your postings in this thread. yet, you keep making well, posts with untruthful information, demanding that lies be treated as truth and demanding that i explain things that you've twisted to not make sense. *laughs heartily as the silliness of lies*
once you've figured out how to respond to truthful statements, and make truthful statements of your own (you could use FOH or the copy/pastes from FOH's forums which were made on these VG forums around VG's release time...); then, maybe you'll have some credibility. just stop lying and stop trolling and make logical, truthful statements.. we players of darkfall are tired of lies and untruths and trolling on the darkfall forums.
Frumpy Lumps, is that you..?!
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
NO... Vaporware is a noun = Non existant product, believed to be real or secretly in production, or rumor, etc.
It has NEVER been used to to illistrate software that didn't meet expectations... lol That just means it's sh!t code, or lousy game, or even Vapor-crap...etc. Only b.net kiddies who never understood the meaning of it.. recently started using the kewl term for whatever they want...
Overblown games like Darkfall are called FLOPS...! Pseudo-software that is accompanied with a lot of lipservice to sell the game. There is a difference of when a game doesn't meet your expectations -or/and- you've been lied to by the developers.
The latter is called pseudo-ware or what I call Hype-ware, in which the developers have been untruthful and deceitful to overblow a games image or feature list, mostly with the hopes of creating excitment for a bad product in hopes of making money on an otherwise undeveloped product.
You can find this on wikipedia.
The marketing angle to "releasing" vaporware can be two-fold. On one hand the intention is to create the demand for a feature or product which did not previously exist in the market. On the other, the intent is also to judge the public reaction from the "release" and prepare a concrete marketing plan. For example, if a virtualization software's vaporware causes ripples in Digg but not in industry journals, the executives responsible may feel the need to reposition the product, or even to go back to the drawing board and redesign and reach the target audience. In some cases, vaporware may be the result of a trial balloon which "doesn't fly". Subsequently the project is quietly cancelled, sometimes before any actual development work is done.
Now I'm not calling DFO vaporware.
I am however saying that is possible for software to be released that WAS vaporware.
If I told you 10 years ago I was making an apple and when I released my apple it was really an orange, what does that make my apple? Vaporware.
They market software, then release what they were working on, and that software not be what they were marketing.
Just because Tasos was marketing a game doesn't mean that he released that game.
Now, I'm not even saying the game isn't what was marketed by tasos as a hater, you don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of people who actually enjoy the game that will say it's not what was marketted. You can go back and red the dev journals, and interviews prior to release. DFO is NOT what Tasos said it would be.
Now you tell me.
The part in red, does that sound familliar?
Because this is exactly what was, and is, going on.
People are asking Av to NOT open the NA server because EU1 will be empty.
Why would he open a new server when he knows it's going to impact the first one in a negetive way?
He's testing markets.
The DFO that was marketted by Tasos for almost 10 years never released. That game is vaporware.
It doesn't matter if "A" Darkfall Online was released. It's not "THE" Darkfall Online that people were expecting, and that's got nothing to do with us. Tasos told us one thing, and gave us something else.
How about this:
Marketing Dictionary: vaporware
Software that has been promised by a software designer but never delivered. Software marketers sometimes announce a new product before its design has been completed in order to generate anticipation and excitement or to appease dissatisfied users of a system that they hope to replace.
Marketing Dictionary doesn't say that the software is never released.
And thier definition sounds like DFO to me.
Tasos promised one thing, gave us something else, and has been replacing systems for dissatisfied users.
In the end, it's not really the software that's vaporware.
It's the PROMISE.
Most vaporware is considered to be software that's announced well before it's released, often before it's ever been begun. If you announce something that's never even started you don't actually have anything so what is the vaporware? It's the promise of a product. That promise is the vaporware more so then the actual product is.
Also from Widipedia:
The term originated with magazine reviewers in the late 1970s/early 80s, originally as parody of software marketers' tendency to attach -ware to whatever noun described the application of their products.
At that time the personal computer market was in its infancy, and it was common for computer manufacturers to supply the software that ran on them, which would rarely work on other manufacturers' machines.
Software development would often lag behind the development of the system's computer hardware. As a result, some computer manufacturers advertised extravagant software packages that allegedly came with their machines, but had not yet been completed, or in some cases, hardly begun, in an effort to sell their hardware and encourage further software development.
Or, how about this. Also from Wikipedia:
Sometimes vaporware is the result of over-optimism, and may actually materialize after a long waiting time (sometimes years). One example of this was the long-delayed Apple Macintosh word processor FullWrite Professional, announced by Ann Arbor Softworks in January 1987 for delivery that April, and actually delivered in late 1988.
^^An example of vaporware that is released.
Or:
Falls short of expectations
This category refers particularly to products that may not be inherently flawed or defective, but rather fail to fulfill the high expectations of the consumers who have been subjected to aggressive marketing campaigns and constant hype from either the company itself or the media who reported about it in the period leading to release. Delays on such products have been known to inflate to months and even years, creating often unrealistic expectations of the final version once it eventually reaches store shelves.
The biggest example of this is the computer game Daikatana, which was announced in 1997 but did not ship until 2000. Many who had waited felt the gameplay was disappointing. Ultima IX was released to savage reviews in 1999, due to numerous bugs, unbalanced gameplay and high system requirements.
Vaporware isn't JUST a product that never gets released. There's a lot more to the word then just a single definition.
BTW, some words can be a noun, a verb, an adverb, etc. etc. Not every word has a singular use.
Yes, we know that was recently added, yet it's not in the definitions as it's not recognized widely, It's more culturistic and niave. <<<all of this is completely incorrect.
how exactly would the multitude of accepted definitions of the term "vaporware", which have been in existence for a number of YEARS, which is a term defined by the people using it, which is a term subject to change as the technology changes/grows, as the definition gets expounded upon as the community using the term grows and matures... how are any of these well-established definitions -
1 culturistic... and how would this invalidate a definition?
2 niave? naive i guess? (if you're going to insult people and talk down to folks, you REALLY should spell correctly. you lose a lot of points in talking down/trolling when you typo while ranting)
95% of the people won't refer to or even recognize that definition, << proof or stfu. 95% of the people i've spoken to (about 25 people total), accept all the definitions given. i've limited the people i question to folks aged 25-40 years old, and who are involved as IT professional, telecommunications (specifically time-warner and at&t), and such professional types. no clue where your 95% number comes from. proof or stfu.
because it only used among the 14~19 crowd. <<< my handful of questions to professional adults completely disproves this statement.
Not the broader populace of PC Gamers, Tech-Heads, or users. <<completely incorrect from my questioning mentioned above.
Just up & coming Consol Gamers. <<what does this have to do with anything? i'm assuming you mean console games when you say consol? based on that assumption (for all i know Consol is a gaming system), why are you assuming that those of us who play console games do not also play computer games, nor have experience in frasi, atm, frame relay, html, java, dacs, junipers, ciscos, or any number of items associated with computers, internet and telecommunications? i don't know if you're trying to be racist/classist or whatever sort of "i'm better than console gamers" statement you're trying to make. but whatever your point is - it's full of fallacies.
People aren't retarded... stretching a 70's term to be part of a B.net.kiddie gaming colloquilism doesn't give the term credit. You can make it up all you want, doesn't make it legit it's just an urban definition, if anything. << you mention "b.net.kiddie" a lot. what experience do you have with battlenet that makes you believe people playing on battlenet for over a decade are "kiddies'? you mention battlenet a LOT on this forum. what exactly is your experience with battlenet that qualifies you as an expert on what people on battlenet are/aren't? please, don't act like you're an expert if you know nothing about an area. who plays battelenet so much as to be a "b.net.kiddie" and uses the term vaporware? in what context do these individuals use this word? where are you seeing them use it? proof or STFU about this 'b.net.kiddie' foolishness.
purple and red. please explain all the inconsistencies and over-generalizations you've made repeatedly in just THIS post.
thank you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Your post is vapoware..
It exist, but has no meaning, depth or reason....! I has failed my expectations.
WoW single handedly ruined the MMORPG market. Becuase 11 million newcomers thought mmorpg's were about fisher price, carebear themeparks..! Thats why we have 20 Asain Free2play games coming out every year, and the reason Mythic made dumb ass Warhammer, or Funcom made dumb ass Age of Conan. (Both horrible.)
Vanguard was the last attempt at a reall mmorpg,,, now we have nothing but wow clones.... <<< "now we have nothing but wow clones". i'm ONLY reading what you typed... now we have nothing but wow clones... what are you saying here? that now we have nothing but wow clones? so... does that mean you're saying that now... we have wow clones and nothing other than wow clones? so, you make a statement that SAYS "we have nothing but wow clones"... and i made a reply disputing that statement. and you called me stupid.
chasing those b.net.kiddies. Who still don't know jack and are oblivious to everthing and ruin every forum they troll.
<< you talk about "ignorance plaque" below, and you blame everything on "b.net.kiddies". what makes you an expert on battlenet and who plays on battlent, to the point that you keep bringing up battlenet players? what is your background here?
They are an "ignorance plague" that's unstoppable, until you meet on in person and kick them in the head with reality and physically show them "other" real games.
Their response is always the same thing, time and time again: "Omg, how come we don't know about this game..?" << what are you talking about? "b.net.kiddies" don't know about any games other than wow? seriously, if you're making this assertion, you NEED to qualify it. i mean, you make the statment that NOW all we have is wow clones... but you talk about battlenet players (some who have played since diablo.... which predates UO.... but they're 'kiddies'... wtf over), but you make all these other statements. i mean, even if we just look at games since vanguard... there's a TON of games released that are not even close to being a 'wow clone'. but you don't state that. you state that vg was the 'last attempt at a reall mmorpg' and follow that with 'now we have nothing but wow clones'... but, there's a lot more games out NOW, that have nothing to do with being a 'wow clone'.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Wow did not destroy the MMO market. It did add the people who likes Diablo into it, that is true but there are "real" MMOs around, like Eve online for one game.
It did influence a lot of companies to copy it and they all ended up with very few players because people don't play Wow because they like MMOs like it, they play it because they like Blizzard games.
There should be a lot of different kind of MMOs for all types of players and while DF didn't do very well (under a 100K players after 4 months is not good, if you think something else you are probably high) but other MMOs with different gameplay is coming up, like World of darkness online (sandbox gothic horror), GW2 (RvR game), MO (sandbox PvP), TOR (RPG MMO) and others.
There will be a game for everyone sooner or later, let the Wow players play Wow (no, I don't play Wow, it is too easy for my taste) and play the game you prefer. I plan to play TOR and WoDO at the same time, or possibly GW2. There might have been a wow copy and paste time in the genre but it is already over now or at least dying down.
Loke,
Do you realize that an MMORPG with 100,000 subscribers is considered a reletive success..? That very few mmorpg's over the last 12 years have had sustained subs in that realm? <<< we're talking about darkfall. darkfall has no where near 100k subs.
World of Warcraft is the only anomaly. You don't need 400k people in a MMORPG to have a success or for to survive. All of these latest releases have been chasing the wow business model... don't you understand this? That is why they are falling way short of expectations. Normal MMORPG's start off with 200k strong, taper off to about 125k and stay there for 4 or 5 years, then dwindle to about 40k-50k for the next 5 years.
B.net.kiddies think if it doesn't have 400k people, the game sucks.. lol. << what is your obsession with battlenet? do they defeat you in every starcraft game you play on there? 11 million battlenet players did not wake up one day and say "hey let's play wow". lots of people with nothing to do with battlenet HAVE come in over the years wow has been out. matter of fact, i can not think of anyone i have played with (outside of maybe 5 people) that ever even mentioned battlenet. the lol is that you mention "b.net.kiddies" in every post, as if they have ruined your life. wtf over.
Not-to-mention, most of the b.net.kiddies have absolutely no intention of staying with a particular game for more than a few years. << again blanket overgeneralizations. what are you playing that you are plagued with "b.net.kiddies"; because, quite honestly, i've heard battlenet games brought up more when i'm chilling in eve, than i have in all other games combined. proof with your over generalizations or stfu.
So these developers have to design their business plan (ie" Business model) around that fact, and cheapen the game as much as possible to make return on their invstment in just a few short months (4~8) instead of years. Because that about the attention span of these 14-19 year olds. << battlenet has been around for about 15 years... the last blizzard north game was made... what... 6 years ago? but it's been around for OVER A DECADE... where are you getting your statistics that battlenet players are 14-19 years old? everything you state about battlenet is completely suspect. why do you keep harassing battlenet players in your posts?
Newbies like easier games (ie: carebear) because they want to be able to do everthing the game has to offer and reach high-level and see the end game in just 8 months... because they already want to move on to the next game. <<< proof or stfu. from playing a variety of games (i normally am subbed to 2-4 games on any given month) i can emphatically state that your confusing "newbies" with "easier games" and "easier games" with "carebear" is just absolutely FALSE. proof or stfu. people coming from FPS, or BATTLENET are anything BUT carebear... battlenet is nonstop pvp - that's all you do on battlenet - fight other players!!!!!! you go on and on about battlenet, but you seem to not know what games are played there... if so, please explain your line of thinking here.
That is not how traditional games are built. 1st gen MMORPG's have way more depth, content and a game world that is extremely hard to solve. <<< hard to solve? what was hard to SOLVE in meridian, uo, or eq? what is hard to SOLVE in any mmo? proof or...
Not-to-mention florish in, watch your charaxcter grow into something you couldn't imagine. Taking YEARS to become the best at what you do, etc. <<< UO has a skill cap of.. 700? (more if you're a vet)... if you only GM skills (100), you can have 7 skills at 100... if you're taking YEARS to become the best at ANYTHING in UO... you have no idea how to play the game. using UO as an example, since you're talking about 1st generation MMOs...
But... (again) none of you newbies understand the perserverence it takes to develop your character this way. <<no idea of how to grind anatomy on a town guard when anatomy first became important to melee'ers in UO? no idea how to grind magic resistance by dancing thru fire/poison walls? what are you talking about? it takes longer to hit max level, grind reputations to exalted, and get geared in anything close to the best pvp AND pve gear in wow --- than it EVER took to grind up skills/levels in 1st generation mmo games. what are you talking about indeed... proof or stfu (or do you, the veteran of everything, not know this old standard when making claims ... that you ALWAYS proof or stfu?? i mean, you really don't validate any statements you make ever on this board... so seriously, if you're a veteran of the internets and gamings... you should very much be familiar with the decades' established term - proof or stfu. so please back up some of these inaccurate statements with some proof.
So, when the b.net.kiddies crash the message boards.. they are always in "wow mode" looking for instant gratification... and demanding the developers change things to suit their ultra carebear needs. <<< you have never played wow have you? how instantly do you max out your chosen trade skills? what about the bonus skills, i.e. fishing, first aid, etc? how quickly are those maxed out? how many factions have you gotten exalted rep with? do you have the owlbear elder that you can summon? what about that steed where you kill a bazillion cold weather beasts and bring them to that hunter guy until he gives you a big kitty? what pvp gear have you worked up to? what tier/level of pve/raid gear have you worked up to? wow mode involves a CRAPTON of grinding... long, boring assed grinds... the constant boring grind and 3 monthly new "carrot on a stick" to chase, is why i, and a number of irl friends, tired of wow a long time ago. it's not that it's too easy... it's that it's too grindy and that everything in wow becomes a damn farm to max.
again... if people are coming from battlenet -- ALL YOU DO ON BATTLENET IS PVP. unless YOU are maybe playing d2 in single player mode or something... starcraft and warcraft ON BATTLENET... are nonstop PVP.... how are people who play battlenet... carebeasrs? you either have no idea of what goes on b.net (battlenet), OR carebear does not mean what you think it means.
None of that has anything to do with how big of a flop Darkfall is. Aventurine simply took too long to deliver a product and when they did, it was 5 years outdated with piss-poor implamentation. Not to mention, they were led by a lead Developer who was not qualified, is a complete lier and has been hiding from the community for 8 months.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
LOL...
Bro, until you know how to respond to a peson's post without having to resort to childish line-item veto argueing, I'll not respond to specific comments, because they are just trolling. Though, I just keep laughing at people who constantly cannot frame their own ideas as whole and complete ideas/posts.
Secondly, why do you ask a question, make a statment, then demand proof as if I was the one asking it..? Who are you talking to, yourself?
Third, "b.net.kiddies" is an all encompassing term meaning newbie who spews banter on message boards. Because that is what the first gen kiddies did. "Wow'tard" is the same thing. Of coase you already knew this, yet you rambled on, and on and on... again, making yourself look as trying "to hard" to win an argument, instead of debating the topic at hand.
BTW... all the "proof or stfu" comments indicate your ignorance of mmorpgs. As you cannot even identify many of my posts meaning -and- when you try and refute them, you erroneously stipulate what I am talking about, (when I am not). Just so you can make an off the wall rubuttal to ideas I don't hold. It funny as sh!t reading your posts.. as you've clearly missed the marked and most of what I have said obvisouly went way over your head.
I have several seperate points I am making, you seem to think they are related and keep mixing and matching. Learn to understand what PARAGRAPHS mean dude... you posts are hilarious!
ps:
What I do know is that, you have no concept of pre-wow and don't understand why the mojority of the people refer to World of Warcraft as Fisher Price. Because after playing games like Everquest for 5 years, WoW was like playing with a Tonka Truck. Grinding in that game was a walk in the park compaired to previous games. WoW set the standard for Themepark funneled content... and everyone followed the same path... you were just another lemming. No different than the guy behind you.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
I really feel sorry for all those sadomasochist old-school that belive that if a game does not need to be played 10 hours a day is because it has not depth, content, a game world that is extremely hard to solve and your characters will not florish enough.
Over complex, over difficult does not mean better or funnier.
First of all, I don't play Wow, my favorite PvP game is Guildwars.
But lets not get personal here.
Anyways, a 100K players for a game that costs so much to develop is really not a success. Most MMOs do need a lot of players just to keep running, the companies do need to get in cash to pay for bandwidth, servers, development costs, salarys and more. The fact is that MMOs costs a lot more than any other game to make.
DF did not costs as much to make as say WAR (I seems to heard the number 20M dollars for DF but that was here so it can be totally off) but they still need enough players to keep it running and updated.
Large companys like SOE can keep a game with a smaller population up and running because they have enough cash and share many resources among their different games but small companies can't afford that.
As for Wow being the most succesful game, that is not truth either, Perfect world have 10 times the players and make more money than Blizzard, but since almost all of them is in asia you don't hear so much about it.
WAR do need 250K players to not lose any money. It costed more than DF to make do even if half the money from the subs go into keeping the game running DF still will need a lot less subs. But I still don't think it is actually less than a 100K.
DF have less than 20K, and so does everyone here agree, what I sad is that no MMO can be runned for that money without loosing a lot of money every month. This have nothing to do with battlenet, carebears or anything else, it is just simple economy. They cant continue losing money all the time, if they don't get those 100K players or whatever their number is to stop losing players the game will be gone.
Yeah DFs number (to go even) can actually also be 75K or 125K but it must be somewhere around that, it costs a lot of money to run a game and a company like AVI cant do it just for fun while losing money.
And do I have to point out that you sad that "normal" MMOs start of with 200K players? If DF did that the game would be doing rather good. It do however have less than a tenth of that.
Aventurine have stated in 2 separate interviews their development cost for DF was under 10mill euros. there's a thread on the front page that argues for 18K subs for DF now. at a 50% retention rate (quite high), that's 36K units sold. at a 30% retenton rate, which is probably more realistic for DF, that's 60K units sold.
60K units @ 42 € == ~2.5mill €, so a 1/4 to a 1/3rd of their devel cost upfront already.
18K subs @ 12 €/month = €216K/month
i'd think they would be pretty happy with those numbers. they still haven't spent anything on regular advertising, so they must be pretty happy.
if the US server sells out as fast as EU did then they will have recouped 1/2 - 2/3rds of their development cost.
what about taxes (was around 25% for companies in 2008), bills, vages and server rent?
or is that free in DF happyland?