I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way. Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked. Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it? To summarize: Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
If it's so easy to bypass and turned off then just turn if off and your problem is resolved. If infact it's NOT easy to turn off it DOES prevent people from cheating and your other post was just a lie.
I think that we're talking about two different things here. So I will attempt to explain my point in a different way.
Gameguard does not work. It does not prevent botting. It does not prevent hacking or exploiting. It is very easily turned off, bypassed and tricked.
Besides the fact that it does not work, the software also causes problems for some users. Yes, we can report issues to INCA or NCSoft and maybe they will get fixed in a month or two... However, since the software does not do what it is designed to do, why do we even need to deal with it?
To summarize:
Gameguard doesn't work and causes problems. Please remove.
If it's so easy to bypass and turned off then just turn if off and your problem is resolved. If infact it's NOT easy to turn off it DOES prevent people from cheating and your other post was just a lie.
These things tend to be relative. Yes, if you have the knowledge its easy to by pass. Thats been demonstrated many, many times. Lacking that knowledge it can be difficult to remove completely. That does not address the various problems it *has* caused due to its poor design and coding. Yes, given the option, some people will cheat. Thats human nature. That doesn't justifiy using bandaids like gameguard, rather than taking game security seriously.
First of all; GameGuard is NOT easily bypassed, the people stating this should go a bit deeper into this and stop bullshitting around when they in fact know nothing about it, this requires alot of skill and patience, and even then i can take alot of time to successfully bypass this system, I do not know what ammount of people the GameMon/GameGuard team consists of, but they're doing one hell of a good job so far IMHO, the new Hackshield used by MapleStory/Nexon is by far worse, detecting alt+tabs as hacking threats is a big annoyance.
Anyways, there's ALWAYS ways to successfully bypass a system, and with 100s of active hobby-"hackers" they will eventually make it, and by this; also sharing with the rest of the "hackers", ("MPCForum, TeamHP" etc..)
I do agree that these protection programs causes alot of problems with other programs on your computer, I haven't had any greater problems with the GameGuard-protected games, but I know that alot of people have.
It's obvious that those of you talking about bad design and coding know absolutely nothing about either. I won't bother giving you a lesson, most would either ignore it or it would go over their head, but the complexities involved in software like this are simply ridiculous.
I will give a example of the power of "beta testers" (just follow me here).
4 in-house betatesters test a game 8 hours, 5 days at week, 4 months: thats 2.560 hours.
the game enters closed-beta, one server
4000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 672.000 hours
the game enters open-beta, 10 server
40.000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 6.720.000 hours
The devs played the game 2K hours, the gamers played the game 6720 K hours.
Who will find the more bugs? years latter there will be still bugs to fix (not program is complete) but the playerbase will invest about 3400 more times than the dev into it.
Hacking is about the same thing. 2 guys will design a hacking system working 1 month ( about 280 hours ).
In 2 months, the players will invest 6.720.000 hour playing the game that may found a bug that break the anti-hacking system. You don't need to activally search a hole.
Theres another problem. The bunny vs the wolf problem. The bunny is running to save his life, the wolf is running to have a dinner. Hackers are more motivated to break a system, than employes. The employes go home, and forget all the thing. The hackers work on the problem 24 hours a day.
I /laught at any anti-hacking system. Is just a waste of time. Having good design is better. If the game have everything gameplay related running in clientside (like the ammount of mana, or the timer of the wings) it will be hacked in one way or another. If these stuff is serverside, it will be safe, and theres no need for a anti-hacking system. Having a anti-hacking system could be a signal that the appllication is poorly coded, so it need something to protect it.
note:
there are stuff that are gameplay related, and there are stuff that are just visual, and nothing stop a game from doing a thing clientside, and having a server confirmation... or sanity check.
not everything can run serverside, but there can be a good design about what runs on a side or the other. if the design don't make sense and stuff like the ammount of HP is only clientside, not sanity check, is a problem that is about to be explode somewhere, but the bomb whas setup by the programmers, not the hackers.
note:
I hate these hackers that have to show to game dev's that a game have holes. theres not merit on that. any program have holes. OF COURSE any game have holes. these hackers are idiots.
I will give a example of the power of "beta testers" (just follow me here). 4 in-house betatesters test a game 8 hours, 5 days at week, 4 months: thats 2.560 hours. the game enters closed-beta, one server 4000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 672.000 hours the game enters open-beta, 10 server 40.000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 6.720.000 hours
The devs played the game 2K hours, the gamers played the game 6720 K hours. Who will find the more bugs? years latter there will be still bugs to fix (not program is complete) but the playerbase will invest about 3400 more times than the dev into it.
Hacking is about the same thing. 2 guys will design a hacking system working 1 month ( about 280 hours ). In 2 months, the players will invest 6.720.000 hour playing the game that may found a bug that break the anti-hacking system. You don't need to activally search a hole. Theres another problem. The bunny vs the wolf problem. The bunny is running to save his life, the wolf is running to have a dinner. Hackers are more motivated to break a system, than employes. The employes go home, and forget all the thing. The hackers work on the problem 24 hours a day.
I /laught at any anti-hacking system. Is just a waste of time. Having good design is better. If the game have everything gameplay related running in clientside (like the ammount of mana, or the timer of the wings) it will be hacked in one way or another. If these stuff is serverside, it will be safe, and theres no need for a anti-hacking system. Having a anti-hacking system could be a signal that the appllication is poorly coded, so it need something to protect it.
note: there are stuff that are gameplay related, and there are stuff that are just visual, and nothing stop a game from doing a thing clientside, and having a server confirmation... or sanity check. not everything can run serverside, but there can be a good design about what runs on a side or the other. if the design don't make sense and stuff like the ammount of HP is only clientside, not sanity check, is a problem that is about to be explode somewhere, but the bomb whas setup by the programmers, not the hackers.
How you are so wrong my friend. There is a reason a game has to keep some things client side. If not, the game would fully depend on servers. And the servers themselves would have to be on the biggest server farm to date, and deploy tech that is more costly than anything. Your game would cost more than $50 bucks and would be more than a $15/month server fee. While you may be willing to pay such a high price, others are not. And the majority wants a game that doesn't cost them a arm and a leg. I would definitely look into tech before asking that a game not run client side. There is a reason for it. Also, what you overlook is no matter if it was server side or not, it could still be hacked. People need to just learn to deal with the fact that people who want to hack, will. GG is good for what it is supposed to do, stop wannabe hackers from hacking. This allows companys to employ there services to the hackers that actually have talent and make the hacks, not the ones using it. Now, GG may not be the best anti hack software, but it does a decent job for what it is.
I will give a example of the power of "beta testers" (just follow me here). 4 in-house betatesters test a game 8 hours, 5 days at week, 4 months: thats 2.560 hours. the game enters closed-beta, one server 4000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 672.000 hours the game enters open-beta, 10 server 40.000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 6.720.000 hours
The devs played the game 2K hours, the gamers played the game 6720 K hours. Who will find the more bugs? years latter there will be still bugs to fix (not program is complete) but the playerbase will invest about 3400 more times than the dev into it.
Hacking is about the same thing. 2 guys will design a hacking system working 1 month ( about 280 hours ). In 2 months, the players will invest 6.720.000 hour playing the game that may found a bug that break the anti-hacking system. You don't need to activally search a hole. Theres another problem. The bunny vs the wolf problem. The bunny is running to save his life, the wolf is running to have a dinner. Hackers are more motivated to break a system, than employes. The employes go home, and forget all the thing. The hackers work on the problem 24 hours a day.
I /laught at any anti-hacking system. Is just a waste of time. Having good design is better. If the game have everything gameplay related running in clientside (like the ammount of mana, or the timer of the wings) it will be hacked in one way or another. If these stuff is serverside, it will be safe, and theres no need for a anti-hacking system. Having a anti-hacking system could be a signal that the appllication is poorly coded, so it need something to protect it.
note: there are stuff that are gameplay related, and there are stuff that are just visual, and nothing stop a game from doing a thing clientside, and having a server confirmation... or sanity check. not everything can run serverside, but there can be a good design about what runs on a side or the other. if the design don't make sense and stuff like the ammount of HP is only clientside, not sanity check, is a problem that is about to be explode somewhere, but the bomb whas setup by the programmers, not the hackers.
How you are so wrong my friend. There is a reason a game has to keep some things client side. If not, the game would fully depend on servers. And the servers themselves would have to be on the biggest server farm to date, and deploy tech that is more costly than anything. Your game would cost more than $50 bucks and would be more than a $15/month server fee. While you may be willing to pay such a high price, others are not. And the majority wants a game that doesn't cost them a arm and a leg. I would definitely look into tech before asking that a game not run client side. There is a reason for it. Also, what you overlook is no matter if it was server side or not, it could still be hacked. People need to just learn to deal with the fact that people who want to hack, will. GG is good for what it is supposed to do, stop wannabe hackers from hacking. This allows companys to employ there services to the hackers that actually have talent and make the hacks, not the ones using it. Now, GG may not be the best anti hack software, but it does a decent job for what it is.
Some misconceptions and out of date assumptions. First, server side vs client side is more a matter of design these days, as well as the talent/knowledge base of the tech staff. One would only need a Eve style super computer cluster, if the entire game population is being hosted on a shardless system. Lacking that, typical server hardware would be more than sufficient to handle the vast majority of security critical game sub systems. Thin clients have a great deal of flexibility these days, and tend to be MUCH more secure than old style fat clients. Its lazy/thoughtless design to place such sub systems client side, and then expect a bandaid like gameguard to take up the slack. The main appeal gameguard presents is the smoke and mirrors they use to dazzle the suits(whose technical knowledge is surface deep at best). Bottom line, just about ANYTHING client side is open to subversion(being in the hands of the "enemy" as it is). What makes a market for sub standard kludges like game guard, are the suits and dev's who don't consider game security from the start. Then they slap on a feel good bandaid like gameguard and hope for the best.
GameGuard does not cause as many problems as people whine about here, but it also doesn't offer any real protection for the game either, there's many by passes to completely disable Game Guard in many games out there so that people can use bots and hacks in those games that are "protected" by game guard, so basically there's no point to have it but there's also no harm in having it, it is all mental and like someone said most of the time something to make the "Big Suits" in a company feel safe.
An average user, who bought his computer from Best Buy, will probably not have any serious issues with Gameguard. However, people who utilize their computers for other things besides Facebook and porn may run into some complications.
For example, during the last play test, the game would not load because I had left uTorrent running. It also prevented some of the buttons on my G15 keyboard from working. Besides the fact that it would randomly stall on updating and would force me to reload the game.
I do not have a problem with hack detection software. I had no issues with Blizzard's software--it wasn't noticeable at all. On the other hand, Gameguard is annoying, invasive and prevents me from running certain software. Not to mention that it is completely useless.
I remember how Blizzard caught a lot of flack when they added their anti-cheat software to WoW. The funny thing is though that their anti-cheat engine actually works and runs virtually undetected. On the other hand, in Aion, we get an invasive root kit which doesn't even work and we get appologists trying to excuse it.
Actually I am no apologist, I was giving my opinion jsut as you claim you are giving yours and for the record I build my computers myself buying my parts form different Websites such as NewEgg and putting them together myself, I play 4 Games that all use GameGuard, I download Torrents, run Teamspeak have a complete Security Suite running, with peerguardian and many other programs running in the background and I have NEVER experienced any GameGuard issues, neither has anyone on my guild of over 100 people in the 4 games we play, so once again, GG does not cause as many issues as people claim and to be sincere I am starting to agree with some people here and think that you guys are simply trying to find something to fault with the game.
Fact of the Matter is the game hasn't even fully realeased yet, so instead of faulting and saying "You won't touch it cause of GameGuard" just wait and see otherwise just move on and go take a look a some other games that do not utilize Gameguard. yes you have the right to voice your opinion but there's a line between voicing your opinion and sounding like someone who is on a crusade to put something down for the wrong reasons and to me that line has been crossed and broken in this thread.
Oh and about that "Porn" Comment, if you want to play like that well I have this to say, Perhaps that's your problem, Stop downloading so much Porn and GameGuard will not block you out of the games because your computer is full of garbage.
Maybe the answer could be that NCsoft have contract with gameguard, or gameguard is easiest to work with for NCsoft.
Gameguard does the job for most gamers, except for more knowledgable hackers.
You can't expect a game to put up NSA level security, which makes me giggle as I think about hackers that rather hack easy peasy gameguard than hack something that actually matters.
Comments
If it's so easy to bypass and turned off then just turn if off and your problem is resolved. If infact it's NOT easy to turn off it DOES prevent people from cheating and your other post was just a lie.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
If it's so easy to bypass and turned off then just turn if off and your problem is resolved. If infact it's NOT easy to turn off it DOES prevent people from cheating and your other post was just a lie.
These things tend to be relative. Yes, if you have the knowledge its easy to by pass. Thats been demonstrated many, many times. Lacking that knowledge it can be difficult to remove completely. That does not address the various problems it *has* caused due to its poor design and coding. Yes, given the option, some people will cheat. Thats human nature. That doesn't justifiy using bandaids like gameguard, rather than taking game security seriously.
First of all; GameGuard is NOT easily bypassed, the people stating this should go a bit deeper into this and stop bullshitting around when they in fact know nothing about it, this requires alot of skill and patience, and even then i can take alot of time to successfully bypass this system, I do not know what ammount of people the GameMon/GameGuard team consists of, but they're doing one hell of a good job so far IMHO, the new Hackshield used by MapleStory/Nexon is by far worse, detecting alt+tabs as hacking threats is a big annoyance.
Anyways, there's ALWAYS ways to successfully bypass a system, and with 100s of active hobby-"hackers" they will eventually make it, and by this; also sharing with the rest of the "hackers", ("MPCForum, TeamHP" etc..)
I do agree that these protection programs causes alot of problems with other programs on your computer, I haven't had any greater problems with the GameGuard-protected games, but I know that alot of people have.
It's obvious that those of you talking about bad design and coding know absolutely nothing about either. I won't bother giving you a lesson, most would either ignore it or it would go over their head, but the complexities involved in software like this are simply ridiculous.
Hacking....
I will give a example of the power of "beta testers" (just follow me here).
4 in-house betatesters test a game 8 hours, 5 days at week, 4 months: thats 2.560 hours.
the game enters closed-beta, one server
4000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 672.000 hours
the game enters open-beta, 10 server
40.000 players start the game, about 3 hours daily, 7 days at week, 2 months: thats 6.720.000 hours
The devs played the game 2K hours, the gamers played the game 6720 K hours.
Who will find the more bugs? years latter there will be still bugs to fix (not program is complete) but the playerbase will invest about 3400 more times than the dev into it.
Hacking is about the same thing. 2 guys will design a hacking system working 1 month ( about 280 hours ).
In 2 months, the players will invest 6.720.000 hour playing the game that may found a bug that break the anti-hacking system. You don't need to activally search a hole.
Theres another problem. The bunny vs the wolf problem. The bunny is running to save his life, the wolf is running to have a dinner. Hackers are more motivated to break a system, than employes. The employes go home, and forget all the thing. The hackers work on the problem 24 hours a day.
I /laught at any anti-hacking system. Is just a waste of time. Having good design is better. If the game have everything gameplay related running in clientside (like the ammount of mana, or the timer of the wings) it will be hacked in one way or another. If these stuff is serverside, it will be safe, and theres no need for a anti-hacking system. Having a anti-hacking system could be a signal that the appllication is poorly coded, so it need something to protect it.
note:
there are stuff that are gameplay related, and there are stuff that are just visual, and nothing stop a game from doing a thing clientside, and having a server confirmation... or sanity check.
not everything can run serverside, but there can be a good design about what runs on a side or the other. if the design don't make sense and stuff like the ammount of HP is only clientside, not sanity check, is a problem that is about to be explode somewhere, but the bomb whas setup by the programmers, not the hackers.
note:
I hate these hackers that have to show to game dev's that a game have holes. theres not merit on that. any program have holes. OF COURSE any game have holes. these hackers are idiots.
How you are so wrong my friend. There is a reason a game has to keep some things client side. If not, the game would fully depend on servers. And the servers themselves would have to be on the biggest server farm to date, and deploy tech that is more costly than anything. Your game would cost more than $50 bucks and would be more than a $15/month server fee. While you may be willing to pay such a high price, others are not. And the majority wants a game that doesn't cost them a arm and a leg. I would definitely look into tech before asking that a game not run client side. There is a reason for it. Also, what you overlook is no matter if it was server side or not, it could still be hacked. People need to just learn to deal with the fact that people who want to hack, will. GG is good for what it is supposed to do, stop wannabe hackers from hacking. This allows companys to employ there services to the hackers that actually have talent and make the hacks, not the ones using it. Now, GG may not be the best anti hack software, but it does a decent job for what it is.
How you are so wrong my friend. There is a reason a game has to keep some things client side. If not, the game would fully depend on servers. And the servers themselves would have to be on the biggest server farm to date, and deploy tech that is more costly than anything. Your game would cost more than $50 bucks and would be more than a $15/month server fee. While you may be willing to pay such a high price, others are not. And the majority wants a game that doesn't cost them a arm and a leg. I would definitely look into tech before asking that a game not run client side. There is a reason for it. Also, what you overlook is no matter if it was server side or not, it could still be hacked. People need to just learn to deal with the fact that people who want to hack, will. GG is good for what it is supposed to do, stop wannabe hackers from hacking. This allows companys to employ there services to the hackers that actually have talent and make the hacks, not the ones using it. Now, GG may not be the best anti hack software, but it does a decent job for what it is.
Some misconceptions and out of date assumptions. First, server side vs client side is more a matter of design these days, as well as the talent/knowledge base of the tech staff. One would only need a Eve style super computer cluster, if the entire game population is being hosted on a shardless system. Lacking that, typical server hardware would be more than sufficient to handle the vast majority of security critical game sub systems. Thin clients have a great deal of flexibility these days, and tend to be MUCH more secure than old style fat clients. Its lazy/thoughtless design to place such sub systems client side, and then expect a bandaid like gameguard to take up the slack. The main appeal gameguard presents is the smoke and mirrors they use to dazzle the suits(whose technical knowledge is surface deep at best). Bottom line, just about ANYTHING client side is open to subversion(being in the hands of the "enemy" as it is). What makes a market for sub standard kludges like game guard, are the suits and dev's who don't consider game security from the start. Then they slap on a feel good bandaid like gameguard and hope for the best.
An average user, who bought his computer from Best Buy, will probably not have any serious issues with Gameguard. However, people who utilize their computers for other things besides Facebook and porn may run into some complications.
For example, during the last play test, the game would not load because I had left uTorrent running. It also prevented some of the buttons on my G15 keyboard from working. Besides the fact that it would randomly stall on updating and would force me to reload the game.
I do not have a problem with hack detection software. I had no issues with Blizzard's software--it wasn't noticeable at all. On the other hand, Gameguard is annoying, invasive and prevents me from running certain software. Not to mention that it is completely useless.
I remember how Blizzard caught a lot of flack when they added their anti-cheat software to WoW. The funny thing is though that their anti-cheat engine actually works and runs virtually undetected. On the other hand, in Aion, we get an invasive root kit which doesn't even work and we get appologists trying to excuse it.
Actually I am no apologist, I was giving my opinion jsut as you claim you are giving yours and for the record I build my computers myself buying my parts form different Websites such as NewEgg and putting them together myself, I play 4 Games that all use GameGuard, I download Torrents, run Teamspeak have a complete Security Suite running, with peerguardian and many other programs running in the background and I have NEVER experienced any GameGuard issues, neither has anyone on my guild of over 100 people in the 4 games we play, so once again, GG does not cause as many issues as people claim and to be sincere I am starting to agree with some people here and think that you guys are simply trying to find something to fault with the game.
Fact of the Matter is the game hasn't even fully realeased yet, so instead of faulting and saying "You won't touch it cause of GameGuard" just wait and see otherwise just move on and go take a look a some other games that do not utilize Gameguard. yes you have the right to voice your opinion but there's a line between voicing your opinion and sounding like someone who is on a crusade to put something down for the wrong reasons and to me that line has been crossed and broken in this thread.
Oh and about that "Porn" Comment, if you want to play like that well I have this to say, Perhaps that's your problem, Stop downloading so much Porn and GameGuard will not block you out of the games because your computer is full of garbage.
Maybe the answer could be that NCsoft have contract with gameguard, or gameguard is easiest to work with for NCsoft.
Gameguard does the job for most gamers, except for more knowledgable hackers.
You can't expect a game to put up NSA level security, which makes me giggle as I think about hackers that rather hack easy peasy gameguard than hack something that actually matters.