As was stated, the supposed "WoW-killers" came out with none of the polish or stability that WoW has NOW. Or had two years ago, for that matter. If you want to compete, especially with more single player gamers getting into MMOs, you better be polished and ready to go on day one! WAR was so behind they killed four professions. AoC memory leaked more than the Titanic. Tabula Rasa....that game wasn't complete until a month before Space Cadet went to the ISS. The only game that released as well as WoW came out around the same time...Guild Wars. While it didn't have a persistent world except for towns and outposts, it did have good gameplay, a story, and competitive PvP. Plus, it was put together by a few Blizzard guys who knew what a successful game took, being involved in the Diablo franchise.
Aion looks like it can have success close to WoW, but they worked out their bugs in Korea, and we will get a smooth game in NA/EU. The thing is, MMO makers need to be more professional and make a tight game. It needs to include some things of the past, just put together in a new, more polished way. So many MMO designers fall for the pressure of their publishers to get the game out there and make money, then those same pubs wonder why they fail.
I'll tell you this with no problem. If AoC had come out with less graphic necessity and the content and polish of Tortage through the WHOLE GAME, they would have a few million subs easy.
My first MMO was UO, shortly before the 2nd age exp pack. Shortly after I went to EQ, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, and finally WoW.
Worst community? WoW I've never been so frustrated from a games community that I wanted to quit not because the game was broken or bad but because everyone was so blatantly rude and excessively selfish. UO PK's actually had some dignity and honor among theives. People in wow just spit on each other all day long, they find ways to ruin the game for everyone because they are unhappy with their own lives or something. Every time I log in now I find some new person who makes me want to log off. Horrible, simply horrible. (I normally hate people who blame wow for the degredation of the gaming community, but hey after a few years of it, i agree)
So because of a few bad apples in the WOW community, they whole games sucks and its bringing down the genre?
That is quite a stretch.....
Every game has their bad apples. Actually the worst communities I have seen to date are Age of Conan and Aion....the chief reason I uninstalled the preview weekend client from my computer and will never touch the game again. It was like the worst of the WOW community all in one place.
I will assume since you talk about UO, you play on a WOW PVP server and I hate to say it, that is where the worst of the community is at. Look at Darkfall and other PVP focused games, the community is usually horrible.
personally, I have little to no issue with the WOW community but hey, maybe I am just lucky with servers.
I didn't say "a few bad apples" anywhere in my statements.
I've played many many online games, several of them MMOs, NO community is even HALF as bad as WoW's.
This of course is also an opinion, but so is your opinion that they're are good players to be found amongst the bad.
You may be correct in the PVP part however, I do play a PVP server merely because it seemed like a "real server" The horde and alliance are at war so it seems dumb to not have that aspect in a game that is based around war...
The name is WARCRAFT.
Yes the PVP attracts the most hostile and rude folks, I concur. Its also unbalanced and rediculously unstable.
Maybe I shoulda rolled PVE, tired of all these RUDE JERKS!
Edit: I don't mind be griefed, I mind when my own side is full of immature self absorbed inpatient sub humans.
Rule of thumb: Anytime anyone starts bringing up "real mmo"s or some such nonsense, ask them if they played in Hardcore mode (ala Hellgate/Sacred 2/etc...).
Because if character death isn't forever, then it just isn't playing for real, now is it?
A nother WoW and Blizzard are the "devil" thread? Let's get something straight. WoW nor Blizzard is killing the genre. As many have said it's greedy companies. That want WoW numbers so they can make bank roll. You want to dethrone WoW? That's easy. Just don't try to be WoW. Take a lesson from them. I probably can't find the interview now, but when someone asked I forget who it was. That was working on WoW at the time about WoW. The person simply said. "We aren't trying to make something revolutionary, we are just trying to make something fun in that takes place in the Warcraft world"
If you want to beat WoW. Make something that is highly polished right out the gate. If you are going to steal idea's from other companies. Like what Blizzard did to make WoW. You better damn well make sure you improve them. Listen to your beta testers, and not some analysis report from your publisher who probably got his "numbers" from his snot nose'd 16 year old kid. If you can't afford to release a completely finished product. Be upfront and honest with your future customers. Don't just steal idea's from previous games, try to make at least one innovative stride of your own, if you plan to 1-up the King. From the conception to the time you hit release. The thought of "is this fun or not fun" should not leave your mind. A game can have tedious items to it, but balance it so that it's tedious, just below the point it becomes fustrating is the challenge.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Rule of thumb: Anytime anyone starts bringing up "real mmo"s or some such nonsense, ask them if they played in Hardcore mode (ala Hellgate/Sacred 2/etc...). Because if character death isn't forever, then it just isn't playing for real, now is it?
If that was referencing me, then yes I've played Sacred 2?
I personally don't like people who are all into "HARD CORE" stuff. I was saying "real server" because its the only ruleset that follows the actual storyline.
My first MMO was UO, shortly before the 2nd age exp pack. Shortly after I went to EQ, DAOC, SWG, FFXI, and finally WoW.
Worst community? WoW I've never been so frustrated from a games community that I wanted to quit not because the game was broken or bad but because everyone was so blatantly rude and excessively selfish. UO PK's actually had some dignity and honor among theives. People in wow just spit on each other all day long, they find ways to ruin the game for everyone because they are unhappy with their own lives or something. Every time I log in now I find some new person who makes me want to log off. Horrible, simply horrible. (I normally hate people who blame wow for the degredation of the gaming community, but hey after a few years of it, i agree)
So because of a few bad apples in the WOW community, they whole games sucks and its bringing down the genre?
That is quite a stretch.....
Every game has their bad apples. Actually the worst communities I have seen to date are Age of Conan and Aion....the chief reason I uninstalled the preview weekend client from my computer and will never touch the game again. It was like the worst of the WOW community all in one place.
I will assume since you talk about UO, you play on a WOW PVP server and I hate to say it, that is where the worst of the community is at. Look at Darkfall and other PVP focused games, the community is usually horrible.
personally, I have little to no issue with the WOW community but hey, maybe I am just lucky with servers.
I didn't say "a few bad apples" anywhere in my statements.
I've played many many online games, several of them MMOs, NO community is even HALF as bad as WoW's.
This of course is also an opinion, but so is your opinion that they're are good players to be found amongst the bad.
You may be correct in the PVP part however, I do play a PVP server merely because it seemed like a "real server" The horde and alliance are at war so it seems dumb to not have that aspect in a game that is based around war...
The name is WARCRAFT.
Yes the PVP attracts the most hostile and rude folks, I concur. Its also unbalanced and rediculously unstable.
Maybe I shoulda rolled PVE, tired of all these RUDE JERKS!
Edit: I don't mind be griefed, I mind when my own side is full of immature self absorbed inpatient sub humans.
I've played plenty of MMOs and some of the best people I have ever met in MMO's were in UO, EVE, WoW and LoTRO.
Sure, there are asshats everywhere and WoW, having a huge subscription numbers also have the highest number of them.
I've played on PvP servers and PvE servers and from my personal experience open PvP in any game often attracts the less desirebale elements. And although I've met some great people on both PvE and PvP servers in WoW, generally, on PvE servers the players are more stable and helpful.
If that was referencing me, then yes I've played Sacred 2? I personally don't like people who are all into "HARD CORE" stuff. I was saying "real server" because its the only ruleset that follows the actual storyline. Sorry if I somehow offended you.
Sorry my man, wasn't about you, was about the typical posturing that happens in these sort of threads about what is and what is not REAL/hardcore/etc...
I remember when WoW came out and everyone had only good things to say about it. People sure become ungrateful for what they have quickly, don't they? 'course, it's been a couple years now, but nothing has really come out that was amazing since then, either.
I think people just get tired of a game (Warcraft) leave it, and get tired of seeing and hearing about it everywhere, so they hate on it and the people who are enjoying it. It sure as hell beat EverQuest and FFXI in the fun department, if you ask me, some of you are spoiled now, with your wide selection of MMOs to choose from! :P
Nice post, OP. I haven't read all the responses but IMO the reason Wow does so well is not because "it's a great game". It is certainly very polished, compartively bug-free and most importantly it's a very easy MMO to get into for people unfamiliar with MMOs. My gf came from a gaming-background of Bejeweled and the like and she was able to get the hang of it pretty quickly.
The reason I think it's still doing well is that by now, many people have invested so much time into their characters, they are reluctant to give up on them, even if a lot of game-boredom is setting in. I think it's much easier for veteran MMO players to let go of character(s) and move on.
Alright, I made an account just to post on this thread. Now to start off, I'm a veteran that started off from the MUD world before moving into EQ back in '98/'99. Now I, personally, hate everything there is about Blizzard, so expect a partially biased opinion. Before we go more into that, however, it should be stated that I beta'd Warcraft 3, the expansion and World of Warcraft for Blizzard before I went on my hate-frenzy of them, so I've been around Blizzard games for quite a while (since Diablo).
Now to my opinion about this whole topic....it is a dead horse, no matter what is going to be said there will always be 2 sides. People who think WoW is killing the industry and people who don't think that. Simple as that. Both make some pretty valid arguments and both have some faults to them. Either way it comes down to a simple fact that everybody has brought up, a game like WoW won't just 'die' unless Blizzard pulls the plug; which they won't because they are as greedy as the next company that gets 10+ million subs attached to their game. Now as to why people bash on WoW so much...
We have to look at first, most of the people bashing on WoW are from the older MMO niche market. They are probably people like myself who enjoyed it being a niche market, WoW destroyed that little world of ours. It definitely put MMOs into the mainstream market which in a way we can be grateful for but at the same time we should be saddened by.
The next thing we need to look at is that 'asshat' market. Yes, more population means more 'asshats' but it does seem like the new people jumping into the WoW market aren't willing to learn some things in MMOs that were unwritten rules that weren't in the console or FPS areas. The best example I can give is having the new guy walking in like Stone Cold Steve Austin and saying he's the biggest baddest mutha around and does whatever they please. The crowd that was already there doesn't appreciate that, so when you step into somebody else's house, you follow their rules. That seems to be a rule that everybody has forgotten these days.
Now people also make mention that every other game tries to copy off of WoW. Which is true, to an extent. Many games will also try to put some variances into their games to make it different from WoW to attract a new market, HOWEVER Blizzard sees these variances and find a way to incorporate them into their own game. Does nobody else find it odd that Wrath of the Lich King had a siege pvp system set up in it at the same time WAR was coming out? Why let your market run away when you can install it into your game. It's smart business just irritating for everybody else b/c the WoW fan club says their game came out with it first when it obviously copied from another game.
So to conclude my points, there are valid reasons why people just hate WoW and think of it as poison, but you have to take it with a grain of salt as many people have already mentioned. Yes WoW has done good for the MMO market, but at the same time it does seem to have poisoned it by paralyzing the market to try and follow a similar structure that has been making lots of money. When WoW wasn't into the MMO scene yet, people were trying to find that structure which gave us the great memories most of us remember. But with that structure in place it makes it difficult to go away from because it has been successful. To put it bluntly, why fix something that isn't broken?
"So I decide to try to take him to play WAR. The concept of Open world PvP as an alternate to instanced PvP was alien to him. I didn't tell him about the small amount of addons since most mmos dont support them, he was somewhat confused as to hold aggro or lose aggro."
So aside from disagreeing with 90% of your post I do have a question about the above statement. How does one hold aggro in pvp? Not sure if thats how you meant it but its how I read it.
Also what exactly are people complaining about WOW for anyways? I see tons of anti wow posts, comments, ect and they all say the same thing. "WOW is too easy" or "WOW is awful". Well, perhaps some of you havent tried 25 man Ulduaar yet. That is certainly not easy. My other question is what is so bad about WOW? Id like specifics, and alternatives to these drawbacks.
Seasons change... I like WoW...it came along and dominated...because it was a good, fun, polished (or at any rate...quickly brought to a shine) game and the result of a perfect storm as far as state of the world..both politically and economically. At least imo....in the U.S. with the terror threat being thrown about and the onset of global fear...many people stop going out as much and found alternative entertainment....that both...kept them "protected" in their own homes and able to communicate with others...friends and strangers alike. Giving them a "social" life while being anti-social. Many other things contributed...finally culminating to the current economic state..making MMO's/wow a very cheap , long-lasting, all around entertainment option. Indeed..I think all video game sales have actually increased ..despite the economy.
"So I decide to try to take him to play WAR. The concept of Open world PvP as an alternate to instanced PvP was alien to him. I didn't tell him about the small amount of addons since most mmos dont support them, he was somewhat confused as to hold aggro or lose aggro."
So aside from disagreeing with 90% of your post I do have a question about the above statement. How does one hold aggro in pvp? Not sure if thats how you meant it but its how I read it.
Also what exactly are people complaining about WOW for anyways? I see tons of anti wow posts, comments, ect and they all say the same thing. "WOW is too easy" or "WOW is awful". Well, perhaps some of you havent tried 25 man Ulduaar yet. That is certainly not easy. My other question is what is so bad about WOW? Id like specifics, and alternatives to these drawbacks.
One doesn't hold aggro in pvp, what I was talking about was monitoring threat without the use of omen.
And that WoWs overuse of instanced pvp might kill the next big mmo's chance of having Open world pvp.
And with 25man ulduaar, I won't say its not challenging. But the first boss is free loot, and to me it seemed like the previous prebc and bc had harder bosses. It could've been that there were no "full raid" buffs, or that the class mechanics were different.
I also think that's a slightly bad sample of people. I for one know that the only time you find me at a lan center is buzzed bordering on drunk with 5+ people all in the same state. (Im 21, and joined MMORPG's since I was in elementary school with UO so I understand your plight).
WoW is the king, and I think it will probably be around for a loong time, but its throne will be overtaken eventually.
Sadly it will probably be by another Blizzard game. Barring TOR Online being absolutly amazing.
I think mostly those were just idiots tho :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Comments
We're the ones actually making the games=)
I hurd [/P] wuz gud. nice wall.
As was stated, the supposed "WoW-killers" came out with none of the polish or stability that WoW has NOW. Or had two years ago, for that matter. If you want to compete, especially with more single player gamers getting into MMOs, you better be polished and ready to go on day one! WAR was so behind they killed four professions. AoC memory leaked more than the Titanic. Tabula Rasa....that game wasn't complete until a month before Space Cadet went to the ISS. The only game that released as well as WoW came out around the same time...Guild Wars. While it didn't have a persistent world except for towns and outposts, it did have good gameplay, a story, and competitive PvP. Plus, it was put together by a few Blizzard guys who knew what a successful game took, being involved in the Diablo franchise.
Aion looks like it can have success close to WoW, but they worked out their bugs in Korea, and we will get a smooth game in NA/EU. The thing is, MMO makers need to be more professional and make a tight game. It needs to include some things of the past, just put together in a new, more polished way. So many MMO designers fall for the pressure of their publishers to get the game out there and make money, then those same pubs wonder why they fail.
I'll tell you this with no problem. If AoC had come out with less graphic necessity and the content and polish of Tortage through the WHOLE GAME, they would have a few million subs easy.
So because of a few bad apples in the WOW community, they whole games sucks and its bringing down the genre?
That is quite a stretch.....
Every game has their bad apples. Actually the worst communities I have seen to date are Age of Conan and Aion....the chief reason I uninstalled the preview weekend client from my computer and will never touch the game again. It was like the worst of the WOW community all in one place.
I will assume since you talk about UO, you play on a WOW PVP server and I hate to say it, that is where the worst of the community is at. Look at Darkfall and other PVP focused games, the community is usually horrible.
personally, I have little to no issue with the WOW community but hey, maybe I am just lucky with servers.
I didn't say "a few bad apples" anywhere in my statements.
I've played many many online games, several of them MMOs, NO community is even HALF as bad as WoW's.
This of course is also an opinion, but so is your opinion that they're are good players to be found amongst the bad.
You may be correct in the PVP part however, I do play a PVP server merely because it seemed like a "real server" The horde and alliance are at war so it seems dumb to not have that aspect in a game that is based around war...
The name is WARCRAFT.
Yes the PVP attracts the most hostile and rude folks, I concur. Its also unbalanced and rediculously unstable.
Maybe I shoulda rolled PVE, tired of all these RUDE JERKS!
Edit: I don't mind be griefed, I mind when my own side is full of immature self absorbed inpatient sub humans.
Rule of thumb: Anytime anyone starts bringing up "real mmo"s or some such nonsense, ask them if they played in Hardcore mode (ala Hellgate/Sacred 2/etc...).
Because if character death isn't forever, then it just isn't playing for real, now is it?
A nother WoW and Blizzard are the "devil" thread? Let's get something straight. WoW nor Blizzard is killing the genre. As many have said it's greedy companies. That want WoW numbers so they can make bank roll. You want to dethrone WoW? That's easy. Just don't try to be WoW. Take a lesson from them. I probably can't find the interview now, but when someone asked I forget who it was. That was working on WoW at the time about WoW. The person simply said. "We aren't trying to make something revolutionary, we are just trying to make something fun in that takes place in the Warcraft world"
If you want to beat WoW. Make something that is highly polished right out the gate. If you are going to steal idea's from other companies. Like what Blizzard did to make WoW. You better damn well make sure you improve them. Listen to your beta testers, and not some analysis report from your publisher who probably got his "numbers" from his snot nose'd 16 year old kid. If you can't afford to release a completely finished product. Be upfront and honest with your future customers. Don't just steal idea's from previous games, try to make at least one innovative stride of your own, if you plan to 1-up the King. From the conception to the time you hit release. The thought of "is this fun or not fun" should not leave your mind. A game can have tedious items to it, but balance it so that it's tedious, just below the point it becomes fustrating is the challenge.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
If that was referencing me, then yes I've played Sacred 2?
I personally don't like people who are all into "HARD CORE" stuff. I was saying "real server" because its the only ruleset that follows the actual storyline.
Sorry if I somehow offended you.
So because of a few bad apples in the WOW community, they whole games sucks and its bringing down the genre?
That is quite a stretch.....
Every game has their bad apples. Actually the worst communities I have seen to date are Age of Conan and Aion....the chief reason I uninstalled the preview weekend client from my computer and will never touch the game again. It was like the worst of the WOW community all in one place.
I will assume since you talk about UO, you play on a WOW PVP server and I hate to say it, that is where the worst of the community is at. Look at Darkfall and other PVP focused games, the community is usually horrible.
personally, I have little to no issue with the WOW community but hey, maybe I am just lucky with servers.
I didn't say "a few bad apples" anywhere in my statements.
I've played many many online games, several of them MMOs, NO community is even HALF as bad as WoW's.
This of course is also an opinion, but so is your opinion that they're are good players to be found amongst the bad.
You may be correct in the PVP part however, I do play a PVP server merely because it seemed like a "real server" The horde and alliance are at war so it seems dumb to not have that aspect in a game that is based around war...
The name is WARCRAFT.
Yes the PVP attracts the most hostile and rude folks, I concur. Its also unbalanced and rediculously unstable.
Maybe I shoulda rolled PVE, tired of all these RUDE JERKS!
Edit: I don't mind be griefed, I mind when my own side is full of immature self absorbed inpatient sub humans.
I've played plenty of MMOs and some of the best people I have ever met in MMO's were in UO, EVE, WoW and LoTRO.
Sure, there are asshats everywhere and WoW, having a huge subscription numbers also have the highest number of them.
I've played on PvP servers and PvE servers and from my personal experience open PvP in any game often attracts the less desirebale elements. And although I've met some great people on both PvE and PvP servers in WoW, generally, on PvE servers the players are more stable and helpful.
That's just my experience.
Sorry my man, wasn't about you, was about the typical posturing that happens in these sort of threads about what is and what is not REAL/hardcore/etc...
I remember when WoW came out and everyone had only good things to say about it. People sure become ungrateful for what they have quickly, don't they? 'course, it's been a couple years now, but nothing has really come out that was amazing since then, either.
I think people just get tired of a game (Warcraft) leave it, and get tired of seeing and hearing about it everywhere, so they hate on it and the people who are enjoying it. It sure as hell beat EverQuest and FFXI in the fun department, if you ask me, some of you are spoiled now, with your wide selection of MMOs to choose from! :P
Bump for OP edit
Kyte, Your post is awesome. Thank you for sharing, I appreciate your thoughtful voice. I'm agree with you.
Please, continue to post.
no sarcasm intended, i think it sounds like it is, but it isn't.
Nice post, OP. I haven't read all the responses but IMO the reason Wow does so well is not because "it's a great game". It is certainly very polished, compartively bug-free and most importantly it's a very easy MMO to get into for people unfamiliar with MMOs. My gf came from a gaming-background of Bejeweled and the like and she was able to get the hang of it pretty quickly.
The reason I think it's still doing well is that by now, many people have invested so much time into their characters, they are reluctant to give up on them, even if a lot of game-boredom is setting in. I think it's much easier for veteran MMO players to let go of character(s) and move on.
Alright, I made an account just to post on this thread. Now to start off, I'm a veteran that started off from the MUD world before moving into EQ back in '98/'99. Now I, personally, hate everything there is about Blizzard, so expect a partially biased opinion. Before we go more into that, however, it should be stated that I beta'd Warcraft 3, the expansion and World of Warcraft for Blizzard before I went on my hate-frenzy of them, so I've been around Blizzard games for quite a while (since Diablo).
Now to my opinion about this whole topic....it is a dead horse, no matter what is going to be said there will always be 2 sides. People who think WoW is killing the industry and people who don't think that. Simple as that. Both make some pretty valid arguments and both have some faults to them. Either way it comes down to a simple fact that everybody has brought up, a game like WoW won't just 'die' unless Blizzard pulls the plug; which they won't because they are as greedy as the next company that gets 10+ million subs attached to their game. Now as to why people bash on WoW so much...
We have to look at first, most of the people bashing on WoW are from the older MMO niche market. They are probably people like myself who enjoyed it being a niche market, WoW destroyed that little world of ours. It definitely put MMOs into the mainstream market which in a way we can be grateful for but at the same time we should be saddened by.
The next thing we need to look at is that 'asshat' market. Yes, more population means more 'asshats' but it does seem like the new people jumping into the WoW market aren't willing to learn some things in MMOs that were unwritten rules that weren't in the console or FPS areas. The best example I can give is having the new guy walking in like Stone Cold Steve Austin and saying he's the biggest baddest mutha around and does whatever they please. The crowd that was already there doesn't appreciate that, so when you step into somebody else's house, you follow their rules. That seems to be a rule that everybody has forgotten these days.
Now people also make mention that every other game tries to copy off of WoW. Which is true, to an extent. Many games will also try to put some variances into their games to make it different from WoW to attract a new market, HOWEVER Blizzard sees these variances and find a way to incorporate them into their own game. Does nobody else find it odd that Wrath of the Lich King had a siege pvp system set up in it at the same time WAR was coming out? Why let your market run away when you can install it into your game. It's smart business just irritating for everybody else b/c the WoW fan club says their game came out with it first when it obviously copied from another game.
So to conclude my points, there are valid reasons why people just hate WoW and think of it as poison, but you have to take it with a grain of salt as many people have already mentioned. Yes WoW has done good for the MMO market, but at the same time it does seem to have poisoned it by paralyzing the market to try and follow a similar structure that has been making lots of money. When WoW wasn't into the MMO scene yet, people were trying to find that structure which gave us the great memories most of us remember. But with that structure in place it makes it difficult to go away from because it has been successful. To put it bluntly, why fix something that isn't broken?
"So I decide to try to take him to play WAR. The concept of Open world PvP as an alternate to instanced PvP was alien to him. I didn't tell him about the small amount of addons since most mmos dont support them, he was somewhat confused as to hold aggro or lose aggro."
So aside from disagreeing with 90% of your post I do have a question about the above statement. How does one hold aggro in pvp? Not sure if thats how you meant it but its how I read it.
Also what exactly are people complaining about WOW for anyways? I see tons of anti wow posts, comments, ect and they all say the same thing. "WOW is too easy" or "WOW is awful". Well, perhaps some of you havent tried 25 man Ulduaar yet. That is certainly not easy. My other question is what is so bad about WOW? Id like specifics, and alternatives to these drawbacks.
Seasons change... I like WoW...it came along and dominated...because it was a good, fun, polished (or at any rate...quickly brought to a shine) game and the result of a perfect storm as far as state of the world..both politically and economically. At least imo....in the U.S. with the terror threat being thrown about and the onset of global fear...many people stop going out as much and found alternative entertainment....that both...kept them "protected" in their own homes and able to communicate with others...friends and strangers alike. Giving them a "social" life while being anti-social. Many other things contributed...finally culminating to the current economic state..making MMO's/wow a very cheap , long-lasting, all around entertainment option. Indeed..I think all video game sales have actually increased ..despite the economy.
One doesn't hold aggro in pvp, what I was talking about was monitoring threat without the use of omen.
And that WoWs overuse of instanced pvp might kill the next big mmo's chance of having Open world pvp.
And with 25man ulduaar, I won't say its not challenging. But the first boss is free loot, and to me it seemed like the previous prebc and bc had harder bosses. It could've been that there were no "full raid" buffs, or that the class mechanics were different.
Edited for quote
You are gen Y... :P
I also think that's a slightly bad sample of people. I for one know that the only time you find me at a lan center is buzzed bordering on drunk with 5+ people all in the same state. (Im 21, and joined MMORPG's since I was in elementary school with UO so I understand your plight).
WoW is the king, and I think it will probably be around for a loong time, but its throne will be overtaken eventually.
Sadly it will probably be by another Blizzard game. Barring TOR Online being absolutly amazing.
I think mostly those were just idiots tho :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...