Well WAR was published and run by GOA in Europe, they had such a bad track record with DOAC that people posted for moths that unless mythic took over they would not play the game.
Their handling of the open beta was a disaster and even on lauch day they were unable to process account information.
Blizzard EU is also a pretty hopeless bunch who use Telia as their ISP and since day one there has been nothing but problems with them yet Blizzard EU refuse to act.
So yes a publisher can make a game a whole lot worse.
personally i belive darkfall would have been in a better state if tasos was not the spokesperson. If they would have selected someone more qualified for the job even in darkfalls current state it would have kept more subs that way.
Tasos is a dev, he could represent his game, but not the company. He fails to see that actual critisizim helps you see your mistakes and you do your best to correct em, he just attacks anyone who speaks ill of the game claiming its fine as is.
well atleast the expantion *ahem big patch since they failed to keep their promise on their patches this is just an accumilation of them from the weeks they failed to do anything to darkfall*
Now I assume in this context when you say "state" you mean the amount of players and amount of income etc not the game itself "code wise" which is fair enough, just hoping to clarify.
With that said you are saying that a great deal of people might be leaving the game 100% becuase of PR statements? which I am not suggesting is incorrect I just have had a hard time believing it but I am coming around slowly to the makings of the community
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think what he was trying to say is that having a well known and experienced publisher may actually improve the game. Most of the time this kind of news would be made public and advertised long before the release. AV's silence makes people worry that something is wrong, and AV is being silent so that not to scare potential customers.
I think I dont fully understand. Would the publisher have rights to the code or game design choices?
if not i do not see how it could make the game better or worse either way.
While Publishers really have nothing to do with the "CODE" of the game. What a publisher can do is hold Aventurine accountable for the content that is in the game based on what Aventurine posts is in the game. Which would make the game better. Since I am pretty sure that no reputable publisher will risk selling a game that has false promises.
Also if you have a bad publisher that is not good at billing and selling the game, that can hurt the game. People being over charges, double charged etc. Or no one other that those that visit sites like this knowing about the game will hurt it's population. A game like Darkfall needs a good population to have fun in it. I don't think many would have fun with only a couple of hundred players playing.
While Publishers really have nothing to do with the "CODE" of the game. What a publisher can do is hold Aventurine accountable for the content that is in the game based on what Aventurine posts is in the game. Which would make the game better. Since I am pretty sure that no reputable publisher will risk selling a game that has false promises. Also if you have a bad publisher that is not good at billing and selling the game, that can hurt the game. People being over charges, double charged etc. Or no one other that those that visit sites like this knowing about the game will hurt it's population. A game like Darkfall needs a good population to have fun in it. I don't think many would have fun with only a couple of hundred players playing. So having a publisher can help or hurt a game.
How can publishers hold AV accountable for what they say is in the game?
also, though I would perfer (and only asking here) that people make a slight wording difference when they are refering to "the game" and the population of the game players.
I do understand that low population affects "the game" but in reality "the game" is actually nothing but code that can get put on a shelf and still be a game. Most of what you are talking about is not the game but peopel subscribing to the game which then affects the enjoyment of it which is different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD How can publishers hold AV accountable for what they say is in the game? also, though I would perfer (and only asking here) that people make a slight wording difference when they are refering to "the game" and the population of the game players. I do understand that low population affects "the game" but in reality "the game" is actually nothing but code that can get put on a shelf and still be a game. Most of what you are talking about is not the game but peopel subscribing to the game which then affects the enjoyment of it which is different.
As with any agreement between companies, one would think there would be contracts which contain both rewards and penalties for certain milestones and performance. That would be a way that a publisher, independant of AV, could hold AV accountable for anything.
As far as the publishers role in affecting code; It's been stated a couple times now that one publishing role can include funding which would directly translate to the ability of AV to code.
Now, as to the semantic argument of code vs. the game....what is the purpose of this distinction? Without players, what does the code do for you? Without a reasonable population are all parts of the code even usable (i.e. sieging or owning a city might require a certain number of people as generic examples)?
If you are set on making a distinction between 'code' and 'game', then the topic of how a publisher could affect either has already been answered.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
personally i belive darkfall would have been in a better state if tasos was not the spokesperson. If they would have selected someone more qualified for the job even in darkfalls current state it would have kept more subs that way.
Tasos is a dev, he could represent his game, but not the company. He fails to see that actual critisizim helps you see your mistakes and you do your best to correct em, he just attacks anyone who speaks ill of the game claiming its fine as is.
well atleast the expantion *ahem big patch since they failed to keep their promise on their patches this is just an accumilation of them from the weeks they failed to do anything to darkfall*
Now I assume in this context when you say "state" you mean the amount of players and amount of income etc not the game itself "code wise" which is fair enough, just hoping to clarify.
With that said you are saying that a great deal of people might be leaving the game 100% becuase of PR statements? which I am not suggesting is incorrect I just have had a hard time believing it but I am coming around slowly to the makings of the community
Take a good look at Horizons , now called Istaria. when things went bad the owners sold the game to another company, that company fucked everything up, from silenceing the players and seldom communicating with them. They messed up the billing and basicly had to close most of the servers due to the massive exedous, kinda sounds familiar on some of the issues darkfall has.
Now a few devs from the 1st company that made Istaria bought it back and their stance changed, while Istaria is still buggy and all its still playablem the small group of devs have been improving it and even if their patches make a new glitch and all they quickly mention their mistake on their fourms. They communicate like hell now with their playerbase that survived the worse, even now the game is actually growing in numbers yet still a small amount of subs.
you see many people can overlook flaws as long as they are enjoying the game. I know there are people out there that like darkfall and want to see it progress. However as long as Tasos calling the shots, never communicating directly with the player base, making bogus claims that the game is complete , claiming its better than the rest ect, people will actually grow tired of the same old shit and leave.
Telling people to have patience for a patch and explaining every now and then even ahead of times if a patch wont make it on time or if errors occur goes a long way then silence. It does have an impact on how people who play the game feel.
The moment they see that nothing is being done or that the company doesnt show interest and it seems all is lost. They will just move on to the next thing.
Even Blizzard has in the past admitted to their mistakes, so has ccp and many other companies. Its not hard.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Take a good look at Horizons , now called Istaria. when things went bad the owners sold the game to another company, that company fucked everything up, from silenceing the players and seldom communicating with them. They messed up the billing and basicly had to close most of the servers due to the massive exedous, kinda sounds familiar on some of the issues darkfall has. Now a few devs from the 1st company that made Istaria bought it back and their stance changed, while Istaria is still buggy and all its still playablem the small group of devs have been improving it and even if their patches make a new glitch and all they quickly mention their mistake on their fourms. They communicate like hell now with their playerbase that survived the worse, even now the game is actually growing in numbers yet still a small amount of subs. you see many people can overlook flaws as long as they are enjoying the game. I know there are people out there that like darkfall and want to see it progress. However as long as Tasos calling the shots, never communicating directly with the player base, making bogus claims that the game is complete , claiming its better than the rest ect, people will actually grow tired of the same old shit and leave. Telling people to have patience for a patch and explaining every now and then even ahead of times if a patch wont make it on time or if errors occur goes a long way then silence. It does have an impact on how people who play the game feel. The moment they see that nothing is being done or that the company doesnt show interest and it seems all is lost. They will just move on to the next thing. Even Blizzard has in the past admitted to their mistakes, so has ccp and many other companies. Its not hard.
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Take a good look at Horizons , now called Istaria. when things went bad the owners sold the game to another company, that company fucked everything up, from silenceing the players and seldom communicating with them. They messed up the billing and basicly had to close most of the servers due to the massive exedous, kinda sounds familiar on some of the issues darkfall has. Now a few devs from the 1st company that made Istaria bought it back and their stance changed, while Istaria is still buggy and all its still playablem the small group of devs have been improving it and even if their patches make a new glitch and all they quickly mention their mistake on their fourms. They communicate like hell now with their playerbase that survived the worse, even now the game is actually growing in numbers yet still a small amount of subs. you see many people can overlook flaws as long as they are enjoying the game. I know there are people out there that like darkfall and want to see it progress. However as long as Tasos calling the shots, never communicating directly with the player base, making bogus claims that the game is complete , claiming its better than the rest ect, people will actually grow tired of the same old shit and leave. Telling people to have patience for a patch and explaining every now and then even ahead of times if a patch wont make it on time or if errors occur goes a long way then silence. It does have an impact on how people who play the game feel. The moment they see that nothing is being done or that the company doesnt show interest and it seems all is lost. They will just move on to the next thing. Even Blizzard has in the past admitted to their mistakes, so has ccp and many other companies. Its not hard.
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
There is no excuse for deception. Amazing as this concept may seem...people WILL SUPPORT A GAME!!! IF!!! the devs are honest. Look at MO as a example, people know full well what is going to be presented to them when the game opens, there IS nor WILL there be any DECEPTION. And I will be playing as a result ;] HAPPYYYYYYYYYYY GAMINGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol?
Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol? Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
Take a good look at Horizons , now called Istaria. when things went bad the owners sold the game to another company, that company fucked everything up, from silenceing the players and seldom communicating with them. They messed up the billing and basicly had to close most of the servers due to the massive exedous, kinda sounds familiar on some of the issues darkfall has. Now a few devs from the 1st company that made Istaria bought it back and their stance changed, while Istaria is still buggy and all its still playablem the small group of devs have been improving it and even if their patches make a new glitch and all they quickly mention their mistake on their fourms. They communicate like hell now with their playerbase that survived the worse, even now the game is actually growing in numbers yet still a small amount of subs. you see many people can overlook flaws as long as they are enjoying the game. I know there are people out there that like darkfall and want to see it progress. However as long as Tasos calling the shots, never communicating directly with the player base, making bogus claims that the game is complete , claiming its better than the rest ect, people will actually grow tired of the same old shit and leave. Telling people to have patience for a patch and explaining every now and then even ahead of times if a patch wont make it on time or if errors occur goes a long way then silence. It does have an impact on how people who play the game feel. The moment they see that nothing is being done or that the company doesnt show interest and it seems all is lost. They will just move on to the next thing. Even Blizzard has in the past admitted to their mistakes, so has ccp and many other companies. Its not hard.
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
Check the Istaria fourms and youll see i did make a thread long ago of me getting into endgame in Istaria. Seriously That game is more flawed and bugged than darkfall. Oh yeah darkfall is waaaaaaaaaaay much more polished than Istaria. Now the community was nice yet the new dev group were keeping their promises as they did fix many bugs as i was playing and even adding new things which kinda kept me going. Seeing how they kept their communications going keeps me interested in the game . Now they finally got the game vista compatable.
Now lets look at vanguard. Ya the creator of the game was the same who made everquest. I was hyped as fuck. Yet as i was getting info of the game and saw in what poor state it was. that hype went away, even more when Mcquaid would spin and hype the current state of the game. Infact he was the one that made me never belive a dev who has to speak for its product and not letting the product speak for itself.
I didnt get the game, it was one huge mess, then sony bought the game. Now this is how strong the impact Mcquaid had with me with his damn lies. Dispite that sony is now doing a good job fixing the game and has it in the right direction , I cannot play it. I get sick of the game because i remember all the bullshit Mcquaid spat out of the game and also I am not so fond of sony for how they have ruined other games. Reputation has alot to do with it, sometimes more than what you think.
This is why you have people out there who will never buy a game from x company dispite that the game is actually exellent in terms of quality.
The way Vanguard, Dark and light and even AOC was hyped is one of the main reasons you see so much neg talk about darkfall. What Tasos has done is not new, was done before and shame on him for choosing such a stupid path.
If he would have came out and said on the 25 of feb that the game is still not done and in beta state yet they need $$ to complete the game. Trust me people who were looking forward to Darkfall would have preordered and even payed to help the game in beta. They would have accepted the flaws the game had while AV fixxed them knowing perfectly well the game is still being finished. Yes some people would mock the players paying for beta but at the end av could have had more time to polish the product, eliminate exploits early on and even set rules for macroing or find ways to eliminate them. The game wouldnt be known as a exploitable, and macroable prodcut it is known today.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol? Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
I think what he was trying to say is that having a well known and experienced publisher may actually improve the game. Most of the time this kind of news would be made public and advertised long before the release. AV's silence makes people worry that something is wrong, and AV is being silent so that not to scare potential customers.
I think I dont fully understand. Would the publisher have rights to the code or game design choices?
if not i do not see how it could make the game better or worse either way.
Indirectly, yes.
I will try to explain it as simple as I can :
Publisher invests money;
Developer uses money to hire more programmers or to keep current programmers;
Because there are more programmers on staff (or even if no programmer is fired), then that means bugs get fixed faster, new content gets created faster, stability improves, etc etc;
So, good publisher = more money = better game
But, there are some negative sides too. If you have an outside publisher, depending on your contract, they may have some say in the development of your game (directly or indirectly), or you may be strictly bound to a certain release date (reason why so many games released unfinished), or it may have some other ways for them to influence the development process of the game.
But, generally speaking, having a good publisher is better then not having it, especially for a small company like AV and especially since it has such a bad track history.
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol? Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
Ahh... but see this is no mere patch we are talking about.
By Tasos' own words this is an "EXPANSION"
Show me another MMO anywhere where so little is known about an expansion just a day before launch.
That is what we mean with DarkFall. They purposefully call this next patch an "Expansion"... yet treat it like any other patch. That is the kind of stuff that makes people not trust Tasos or DarkFall.
If it's an "Expansion" then treat it as such.
If it's just another patch... then don't call it an "expansion".
Edit:
A lot of MMOs have test servers where future content (whether it be expansions or patches) can be fully tested by players weeks if not months ahead of time.
Have never played the game but have followed the good vs evil threads since before it was launched. I must admit that given the huge amount of criticism that surrounded the launch and the supposed features that never arrived, it doies seem a bit cheeky to start shouting "expansion" without many of the core issued being addressed. If AV / Tasos is guilty of anyting in my view, its a complete ignorance on how to engage with your customer base and create a positive enthusiasm for your product.
I hope to try the game one day but not until I see more positive reports
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol? Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
Ahh... but see this is no mere patch we are talking about.
By Tasos' own words this is an "EXPANSION"
Show me another MMO anywhere where so little is known about an expansion just a day before launch.
That is what we mean with DarkFall. They purposefully call this next patch an "Expansion"... yet treat it like any other patch. That is the kind of stuff that makes people not trust Tasos or DarkFall.
If it's an "Expansion" then treat it as such.
If it's just another patch... then don't call it an "expansion".
Edit:
A lot of MMOs have test servers where future content (whether it be expansions or patches) can be fully tested by players weeks if not months ahead of time.
Not just an expansion but a FREE expansion, so you tell me now what other games release an expansion for free? with the exception of VG..which was also content that was missing from release.
Dont you think that we are all guilty of being a little too prodantic? you call it tomato i call it Tomato kind of thing?
And we all read the notes didn't we, when he was explaining that they prefer to call it an expansion because it is so large! but were all adults here and realise that it is still technically just another patch dont we or do we? ok i am speaking for myself here and can't judge others.
Have never played the game but have followed the good vs evil threads since before it was launched. I must admit that given the huge amount of criticism that surrounded the launch and the supposed features that never arrived, it doies seem a bit cheeky to start shouting "expansion" without many of the core issued being addressed. If AV / Tasos is guilty of anyting in my view, its a complete ignorance on how to engage with your customer base and create a positive enthusiasm for your product. I hope to try the game one day but not until I see more positive reports
no disrespect friend but i think you have been dragged in by the forums this patch/expansion is adressing the core issues that the DF playing community are shouting about. Mainly mack of PVE.
Not disrespected at all m8. Im delighted if this patch / expansion / whatever we want to call it makes the game what it aspired to be and what the players want. If the positive feedback grows I will definatly try it out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Indirectly, yes. I will try to explain it as simple as I can : Publisher invests money;
Developer uses money to hire more programmers or to keep current programmers;
Because there are more programmers on staff (or even if no programmer is fired), then that means bugs get fixed faster, new content gets created faster, stability improves, etc etc; So, good publisher = more money = better game But, there are some negative sides too. If you have an outside publisher, depending on your contract, they may have some say in the development of your game (directly or indirectly), or you may be strictly bound to a certain release date (reason why so many games released unfinished), or it may have some other ways for them to influence the development process of the game. But, generally speaking, having a good publisher is better then not having it, especially for a small company like AV and especially since it has such a bad track history.
"more money = better game"
means that WoW and EQ2 are the best games around and I am sure that is true for the majority but for me I am not impressed with what "more money" has done in this industry.
So no, sorry I do not agree with the basic forumla that more money = better game.
Not saying this for sure but if Billzard took over the game I would be very worried.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
Well WAR was published and run by GOA in Europe, they had such a bad track record with DOAC that people posted for moths that unless mythic took over they would not play the game.
Their handling of the open beta was a disaster and even on lauch day they were unable to process account information.
Blizzard EU is also a pretty hopeless bunch who use Telia as their ISP and since day one there has been nothing but problems with them yet Blizzard EU refuse to act.
So yes a publisher can make a game a whole lot worse.
personally i belive darkfall would have been in a better state if tasos was not the spokesperson. If they would have selected someone more qualified for the job even in darkfalls current state it would have kept more subs that way.
Tasos is a dev, he could represent his game, but not the company. He fails to see that actual critisizim helps you see your mistakes and you do your best to correct em, he just attacks anyone who speaks ill of the game claiming its fine as is.
well atleast the expantion *ahem big patch since they failed to keep their promise on their patches this is just an accumilation of them from the weeks they failed to do anything to darkfall*
Now I assume in this context when you say "state" you mean the amount of players and amount of income etc not the game itself "code wise" which is fair enough, just hoping to clarify.
With that said you are saying that a great deal of people might be leaving the game 100% becuase of PR statements? which I am not suggesting is incorrect I just have had a hard time believing it but I am coming around slowly to the makings of the community
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I think I dont fully understand. Would the publisher have rights to the code or game design choices?
if not i do not see how it could make the game better or worse either way.
While Publishers really have nothing to do with the "CODE" of the game. What a publisher can do is hold Aventurine accountable for the content that is in the game based on what Aventurine posts is in the game. Which would make the game better. Since I am pretty sure that no reputable publisher will risk selling a game that has false promises.
Also if you have a bad publisher that is not good at billing and selling the game, that can hurt the game. People being over charges, double charged etc. Or no one other that those that visit sites like this knowing about the game will hurt it's population. A game like Darkfall needs a good population to have fun in it. I don't think many would have fun with only a couple of hundred players playing.
So having a publisher can help or hurt a game.
How can publishers hold AV accountable for what they say is in the game?
also, though I would perfer (and only asking here) that people make a slight wording difference when they are refering to "the game" and the population of the game players.
I do understand that low population affects "the game" but in reality "the game" is actually nothing but code that can get put on a shelf and still be a game. Most of what you are talking about is not the game but peopel subscribing to the game which then affects the enjoyment of it which is different.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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As with any agreement between companies, one would think there would be contracts which contain both rewards and penalties for certain milestones and performance. That would be a way that a publisher, independant of AV, could hold AV accountable for anything.
As far as the publishers role in affecting code; It's been stated a couple times now that one publishing role can include funding which would directly translate to the ability of AV to code.
Now, as to the semantic argument of code vs. the game....what is the purpose of this distinction? Without players, what does the code do for you? Without a reasonable population are all parts of the code even usable (i.e. sieging or owning a city might require a certain number of people as generic examples)?
If you are set on making a distinction between 'code' and 'game', then the topic of how a publisher could affect either has already been answered.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
personally i belive darkfall would have been in a better state if tasos was not the spokesperson. If they would have selected someone more qualified for the job even in darkfalls current state it would have kept more subs that way.
Tasos is a dev, he could represent his game, but not the company. He fails to see that actual critisizim helps you see your mistakes and you do your best to correct em, he just attacks anyone who speaks ill of the game claiming its fine as is.
well atleast the expantion *ahem big patch since they failed to keep their promise on their patches this is just an accumilation of them from the weeks they failed to do anything to darkfall*
Now I assume in this context when you say "state" you mean the amount of players and amount of income etc not the game itself "code wise" which is fair enough, just hoping to clarify.
With that said you are saying that a great deal of people might be leaving the game 100% becuase of PR statements? which I am not suggesting is incorrect I just have had a hard time believing it but I am coming around slowly to the makings of the community
Take a good look at Horizons , now called Istaria. when things went bad the owners sold the game to another company, that company fucked everything up, from silenceing the players and seldom communicating with them. They messed up the billing and basicly had to close most of the servers due to the massive exedous, kinda sounds familiar on some of the issues darkfall has.
Now a few devs from the 1st company that made Istaria bought it back and their stance changed, while Istaria is still buggy and all its still playablem the small group of devs have been improving it and even if their patches make a new glitch and all they quickly mention their mistake on their fourms. They communicate like hell now with their playerbase that survived the worse, even now the game is actually growing in numbers yet still a small amount of subs.
you see many people can overlook flaws as long as they are enjoying the game. I know there are people out there that like darkfall and want to see it progress. However as long as Tasos calling the shots, never communicating directly with the player base, making bogus claims that the game is complete , claiming its better than the rest ect, people will actually grow tired of the same old shit and leave.
Telling people to have patience for a patch and explaining every now and then even ahead of times if a patch wont make it on time or if errors occur goes a long way then silence. It does have an impact on how people who play the game feel.
The moment they see that nothing is being done or that the company doesnt show interest and it seems all is lost. They will just move on to the next thing.
Even Blizzard has in the past admitted to their mistakes, so has ccp and many other companies. Its not hard.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
There is no excuse for deception. Amazing as this concept may seem...people WILL SUPPORT A GAME!!! IF!!! the devs are honest. Look at MO as a example, people know full well what is going to be presented to them when the game opens, there IS nor WILL there be any DECEPTION. And I will be playing as a result ;] HAPPYYYYYYYYYYY GAMINGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But would people be big enough to say" ok lets give him a chance now as he is trying to put things right"? or would they just say that it is too late now lol?
Take a look at the news section on the DF site. He has actually admitted that the game needs a lot of work and that they are working hard to try to correct this. But still we argue that he is lieing etc, if the patch goes in and the NA server is launched will people welcome that, or just pick on another flaw? critisism and credit need to go hand in hand but often we are too wrapped up in the past to see it.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Thank you,
The Darkfall Team"
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
It's going to be interesting to see how they change the game mechanics with this patch.
That is all fine I was just asking for clarification and hopes for more specific language to be applied when refering the "the game" and the player population due to whatever...
Other than that I will say this on your topic. I do care if people leave a game I like in mass but the reasons they usually leave I dont agree with. More to the point I dont think I would ever leave a good game because developers lie or dont communicate well because in my mind there are not enough good games as it is (and I mean actual games not those who manage them or create them) . But as it is I have no control or affect over the majority of gamers so its beyond my control.
Intresting read tonight on the main page of this site about the "wishes" for MMO's. It states some intresting points that are valid industry wide, not just DF.
added: also, I left EQ2 not because of customer service or lack of communication which is something I really didnt keep up with much but more becuase I found a game (actual game) that I liked better.
Check the Istaria fourms and youll see i did make a thread long ago of me getting into endgame in Istaria. Seriously That game is more flawed and bugged than darkfall. Oh yeah darkfall is waaaaaaaaaaay much more polished than Istaria. Now the community was nice yet the new dev group were keeping their promises as they did fix many bugs as i was playing and even adding new things which kinda kept me going. Seeing how they kept their communications going keeps me interested in the game . Now they finally got the game vista compatable.
Now lets look at vanguard. Ya the creator of the game was the same who made everquest. I was hyped as fuck. Yet as i was getting info of the game and saw in what poor state it was. that hype went away, even more when Mcquaid would spin and hype the current state of the game. Infact he was the one that made me never belive a dev who has to speak for its product and not letting the product speak for itself.
I didnt get the game, it was one huge mess, then sony bought the game. Now this is how strong the impact Mcquaid had with me with his damn lies. Dispite that sony is now doing a good job fixing the game and has it in the right direction , I cannot play it. I get sick of the game because i remember all the bullshit Mcquaid spat out of the game and also I am not so fond of sony for how they have ruined other games. Reputation has alot to do with it, sometimes more than what you think.
This is why you have people out there who will never buy a game from x company dispite that the game is actually exellent in terms of quality.
The way Vanguard, Dark and light and even AOC was hyped is one of the main reasons you see so much neg talk about darkfall. What Tasos has done is not new, was done before and shame on him for choosing such a stupid path.
If he would have came out and said on the 25 of feb that the game is still not done and in beta state yet they need $$ to complete the game. Trust me people who were looking forward to Darkfall would have preordered and even payed to help the game in beta. They would have accepted the flaws the game had while AV fixxed them knowing perfectly well the game is still being finished. Yes some people would mock the players paying for beta but at the end av could have had more time to polish the product, eliminate exploits early on and even set rules for macroing or find ways to eliminate them. The game wouldnt be known as a exploitable, and macroable prodcut it is known today.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Thank you,
The Darkfall Team"
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
I think I dont fully understand. Would the publisher have rights to the code or game design choices?
if not i do not see how it could make the game better or worse either way.
Indirectly, yes.
I will try to explain it as simple as I can :
Publisher invests money;
Developer uses money to hire more programmers or to keep current programmers;
Because there are more programmers on staff (or even if no programmer is fired), then that means bugs get fixed faster, new content gets created faster, stability improves, etc etc;
So, good publisher = more money = better game
But, there are some negative sides too. If you have an outside publisher, depending on your contract, they may have some say in the development of your game (directly or indirectly), or you may be strictly bound to a certain release date (reason why so many games released unfinished), or it may have some other ways for them to influence the development process of the game.
But, generally speaking, having a good publisher is better then not having it, especially for a small company like AV and especially since it has such a bad track history.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Thank you,
The Darkfall Team"
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
Ahh... but see this is no mere patch we are talking about.
By Tasos' own words this is an "EXPANSION"
Show me another MMO anywhere where so little is known about an expansion just a day before launch.
That is what we mean with DarkFall. They purposefully call this next patch an "Expansion"... yet treat it like any other patch. That is the kind of stuff that makes people not trust Tasos or DarkFall.
If it's an "Expansion" then treat it as such.
If it's just another patch... then don't call it an "expansion".
Edit:
A lot of MMOs have test servers where future content (whether it be expansions or patches) can be fully tested by players weeks if not months ahead of time.
Have never played the game but have followed the good vs evil threads since before it was launched. I must admit that given the huge amount of criticism that surrounded the launch and the supposed features that never arrived, it doies seem a bit cheeky to start shouting "expansion" without many of the core issued being addressed. If AV / Tasos is guilty of anyting in my view, its a complete ignorance on how to engage with your customer base and create a positive enthusiasm for your product.
I hope to try the game one day but not until I see more positive reports
To err is human....to play is divine
Just curious about your choice of words above.
Could you quote and/or link the part where Tasos says what you say he said?
His most recent news post says this:
"It was just determined that the Darkfall expansion will go live on Tuesday July 7th.
This short delay pushes back the N. American launch to Monday July 13th.
More information on the Darkfall expansion on Monday July 6th and on the N. American launch shortly after.
Thank you,
The Darkfall Team"
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
Players on the official forums are giving him crap because at the EARLIEST the players will know any specifics about the "expansion" is 1 day before it is to be implemented.
Those who were waiting to decide if they should re-sub or not depending on what is in the "expansion"... well they just decided to NOT re-sub.
It's the continual lack of information and non-disclosure from Tasos that has created the current level of cynicalness from the players of DarkFall.
If you want that to change... it needs to start with Tasos.
to be honest mate i'm not interested enough to start looking for quotes and stuff or checking that i got the wording correct so if you've pulled me up on something then fair play to you.
Read through the announcment and i am sure you will get the jist that they are trying to fix things and improve the game....or they simply wouldn't even be adding patches would they.
but i agree that Tasos has got to start to change the trend and also that he deserves his reputation.
But i would welcome the early days of mmo's when you needed to play the game and learn it yourself. And we didnt spend 50% of our MMO time on forums and gameing sites. I remember downloading patches for Everquest and having to read the patch notes there and then....in fact they still only release the notes hours before they patch dont they?
Ahh... but see this is no mere patch we are talking about.
By Tasos' own words this is an "EXPANSION"
Show me another MMO anywhere where so little is known about an expansion just a day before launch.
That is what we mean with DarkFall. They purposefully call this next patch an "Expansion"... yet treat it like any other patch. That is the kind of stuff that makes people not trust Tasos or DarkFall.
If it's an "Expansion" then treat it as such.
If it's just another patch... then don't call it an "expansion".
Edit:
A lot of MMOs have test servers where future content (whether it be expansions or patches) can be fully tested by players weeks if not months ahead of time.
Not just an expansion but a FREE expansion, so you tell me now what other games release an expansion for free? with the exception of VG..which was also content that was missing from release.
Dont you think that we are all guilty of being a little too prodantic? you call it tomato i call it Tomato kind of thing?
And we all read the notes didn't we, when he was explaining that they prefer to call it an expansion because it is so large! but were all adults here and realise that it is still technically just another patch dont we
or do we? ok i am speaking for myself here and can't judge others.
Eve does free expansions as does LOTRO?...just saying
To err is human....to play is divine
no disrespect friend but i think you have been dragged in by the forums
this patch/expansion is adressing the core issues that the DF playing community are shouting about. Mainly mack of PVE.
Damn you! couldnt you just have left me along for a few hours haha!
Ok you got me. I'm getting sick of these forums recently, just full of people proving me wrong
Not disrespected at all m8. Im delighted if this patch / expansion / whatever we want to call it makes the game what it aspired to be and what the players want. If the positive feedback grows I will definatly try it out.
To err is human....to play is divine
Pretty sure Mines of Moria was NOT free. Just saying.
True, but the books were. Look at us both saying stuff..
To err is human....to play is divine
Hysterical? More like ironic since MO is traveling down a similar path as DF.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"more money = better game"
means that WoW and EQ2 are the best games around and I am sure that is true for the majority but for me I am not impressed with what "more money" has done in this industry.
So no, sorry I do not agree with the basic forumla that more money = better game.
Not saying this for sure but if Billzard took over the game I would be very worried.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me