That is a simplification. As I have said - when i solo I do not do it when I am short on time. to me ittakes longer to complete quests solo - and is much more of a challenge. Of course not all quests can be done solo which makes leveling harder and more of a challenge. Actually I solo more for the challenge of it.
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
Yes, in answer to your question, and sometimes almost impossible. EVE is a good example - more for being part of a guild than a group. If you can truly solo EVE - with no group or Corp associations - even in 0.0 space - please let me know - just so that I can ask you how you do it. And by that I mean you solo'd the game from the start.
I am currently waiting for Champions Online - I have no idea of whether it will be solo, group or a mix. Probably somewhat of a mix. I like the game idea, so i will play it. I will try soloing, and if that doesn't pay off I will join a guild or whatever it will be called and group with my guild mates - people who I can interact with and plan attempts with. I try to adapt to the game, but I also like challenges which means I will never not try playing solo.
That is a simplification. As I have said - when i solo I do not do it when I am short on time. to me ittakes longer to complete quests solo - and is much more of a challenge. Of course not all quests can be done solo which makes leveling harder and more of a challenge. Actually I solo more for the challenge of it.
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'.
I can see that going over well with the groupers.
In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game:
a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss
or
b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests
Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
That is a simplification. As I have said - when i solo I do not do it when I am short on time. to me ittakes longer to complete quests solo - and is much more of a challenge. Of course not all quests can be done solo which makes leveling harder and more of a challenge. Actually I solo more for the challenge of it.
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'.
I can see that going over well with the groupers.
In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game:
a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss
or
b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests
Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
uh just for the record i wanted to say that I was never arguing about the rewards, just the linkage between casual play and solo play.
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'. I can see that going over well with the groupers. In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game: a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss or b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
Ehh if you do it for the challenge (like the guy I quoted said he did), then that's what he got out of it. A challenge.
Wouldn't the guy who soloed million quests get better rewards in the end (quantity, not quality)?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'. I can see that going over well with the groupers. In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game: a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss or b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
Ehh if you do it for the challenge (like the guy I quoted said he did), then that's what he got out of it. A challenge.
Wouldn't the guy who soloed million quests get better rewards in the end (quantity, not quality)?
I am all for a 'do it for the challenge' system, however, that would also mean that groupers would not be getting better gear than soloers:)
Ultimately, I think we are focusing on the wrong 'reward'. At the core the biggest reward the devs can give to a group of players is new, better content. So the best raiders would get more raids, best solo questers would get more solo quests, best crafters would get more stuff to craft, best explorere would get new places to explore, etc. The root of the problem is that the best new content for too long has been geared for the groupers and the other player groups got leftovers.
If MMORPGs can get away from the progression-through-gear philoosphy a lot of this issue would fall away. New game content is too much tied into gear so the fight for queal content becomes a fight for equal gear. Gear should stop being the reward and become merely the tool for progression.
That is elitist BS. What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers. A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums. It completely skews the metric. Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
I am all for a 'do it for the challenge' system, however, that would also mean that groupers would not be getting better gear than soloers:) Ultimately, I think we are focusing on the wrong 'reward'. At the core the biggest reward the devs can give to a group of players is new, better content. So the best raiders would get more raids, best solo questers would get more solo quests, best crafters would get more stuff to craft, best explorere would get new places to explore, etc. The root of the problem is that the best new content for too long has been geared for the groupers and the other player groups got leftovers. If MMORPGs can get away from the progression-through-gear philoosphy a lot of this issue would fall away. New game content is too much tied into gear so the fight for queal content becomes a fight for equal gear. Gear should stop being the reward and become merely the tool for progression.
This would obviously be a problem only in a game where both soloing and grouping would try to be on an equal position (most of the MMO's I guess).
If the game is made for groupers, that won't be a problem but it's a legitimate concern for games that mix up the 2 playstyles, true.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
That is elitist BS. What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers. A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums. It completely skews the metric. Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
You groupers act as if we soloers have never partied. From my experience, the amount of time or inconvenience associated with grouping doesn't even remotely justify the superior rewards or exclusive content. This is purely an arbitrary decision made by the developers, not because you have actually earned it more than soloers or even duos.
These are competing play styles and they can never be reconciled. You give equal rewards and groupers get bitchy. You give groups better rewards and soloers get bitchy. You see, the middle ground is giving all play style equal access and rewards, but you still make groupers and raider angry by doing this. Until they come out with a solo oriented game with grouping as an option, we will always be third rate.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
That is elitist BS. What rewards you get should be based on the effort you put into the game. The problem is that the current crop of MMOs puts a ridiculously high weight ont he effort of raiders/groupers. A casual/soloer can put a lot of effort into the game but it is discounted so much in favour of what the groupers do that they are made to look like lazy bums. It completely skews the metric. Once you recognize that what the groupers do is nothing special, the metric shifts to a more realistic position.
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
You groupers act as if we soloers have never partied. From my experience, the amount of time or inconvenience associated with grouping doesn't even remotely justify the superior rewards or exclusive content. This is purely an arbitrary decision made by the developers, not because you have actually earned it more than soloers or even duos.
These are competing play styles and they can never be reconciled. You give equal rewards and groupers get bitchy. You give groups better rewards and soloers get bitchy. You see, the middle ground is giving all play style equal access and rewards, but you still make groupers and raider angry by doing this. Until they come out with a solo oriented game with grouping as an option, we will always be third rate.
Agreed 100%! Well said.
Make solo games for solo players. Sure, you CAN group if you want to in those games, it may even be fun sometimes, but really it's quite pointless because it's unnecessary.
Make group games for group players. Sure, you CAN solo in those games, but it's going to be a long painful road to the top for the soloer.
100% of all solutions I have seen proposed for making a game that is great for solo AND group players, is just a solo player saying groupers shouldn't be upset if solo players get the exact same content and rewards as groupers.
What, that "casuals" have lives? And you get upset about it?
Do you even know what the argument is about? lol.
Of course, I happen to be pointing out one of the many flaws in your argument. The reality is, many, if not most people have lives and cannot always commit to a group. They often have limited time to play and spending 80% of your play time looking for a group is not a good return on the time invested. You, of course, seem to be mad that these people aren't online 24/7 so they can be group whores. I'm pointing out that the people who spend 24/7 on any game are known in the colloquial as "failures" and need a life.
Of course, I happen to be pointing out one of the many flaws in your argument. The reality is, many, if not most people have lives and cannot always commit to a group. They often have limited time to play and spending 80% of your play time looking for a group is not a good return on the time invested. You, of course, seem to be mad that these people aren't online 24/7 so they can be group whores. I'm pointing out that the people who spend 24/7 on any game are known in the colloquial as "failures" and need a life.
Oh, so you do agree with me, that is good to know.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
because people like to force people to do things (like forcing people to group). I call those "control freaks"
Funny thing is...they always talk about how older MMOs were forced solo. But, asheron's call was an awesome solo MMO...BUT...plenty of people grouped in that game.
No one has came back with an argument for that one, and usually gets ignored.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is. In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them. When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
Those solo players wouldn't even try the 'forced' group MMO if they didn't even want to try. It's not forcing 'against their will' if those players are given the choice to not to play the game in the first place. And you can't say players wouldn't try it out, although those stuck in the 'make everything a copy of <insert solo MMO here>' mindset probably wouldn't bother trying out new things.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
because people like to force people to do things (like forcing people to group). I call those "control freaks"
Funny thing is...they always talk about how older MMOs were forced solo. But, asheron's call was an awesome solo MMO...BUT...plenty of people grouped in that game.
No one has came back with an argument for that one, and usually gets ignored.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
What's the point? City of Heroes was a solo game, where lots of people grouped.
It's still not a satisfying group game, because the grouping is largely unnecessary.
Just because you CAN group and sometimes do, doesn't mean it's a good grouping game.
Really, all you're saying is you don't want to play a game of basketball because you don't have time for it. If I like playing basketball, well it requires a team. If I don't have the time for a team, then I can't play basketball.
Sure, I can shoot some hoops, but it's not a game of basketball, which is a team based game. I don't think everyone that likes to play basketball is a "control freak", just because they like a team based game.
If basketball doesn't work, we can use frisbee. Sure, I can throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. But it's not much fun. If I want to have a fun game of frisbee, it requires two people. yes, that's more time than just me alone, but I don't really want to stand around and throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. Nothing to do with wanted to "force" you to play frisbee, it's just a game taht I like to play that requires more than one person. Either I have the time to play some frisbee with some, or I don't play frisbee.
Same with poker. Yes, I could play against the computer, but that's not really any fun. I like to play a poker game with some friends. Sure, that requires more time than just turning on my computer, but it's a game that's only fun for me if I'm playing it with other people. Either I have the time to get some people together, or I don't play poker.
In a good grouping MMORPG, I don't mind if I don't find a group. It's just like playing basketball, poker, or frisbee. Those are all games I enjoy playing with other people. If I don't have the time to find other people, or can't find other people, I don't play those games. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG I don't play. Oh, maybe I'll stand around and wack on some single mobs, but I'm just wasting time waiting on a group. I have no desire to try and make progress or complete quests solo in an MMORPG. Just like the other games, I find that's no fun solo.
If I want to play a solo game, I'll turn on Fallout 3, or something like that. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG, I've missed nothing. IT's the same thing as playing frisbee by myself. Pointless, and no fun.
At the risk of offending some people with my word choice, I am honestly starting to believe that the "separate but equal" strategy is, while not the best possible solution, at least a viable one - if developers would consider looking into it.
What that means is, with perhaps a little more time and effort, the soloers (including myself here for the most part, though I am willing to group when necessary either with my guild or with a PUG) can get that "uber sword of doom." Groupers can also get the "uber sword of doom." If the developers are so inclined, they can give the "uber sword of doom" different names: one for the groupers who raided to get it and another for the soloers who get it as a drop somewhere. Keep the stats the same. Aside from the extra development time (which, in the grand scheme, could be fairly minimal), it's not especially difficult to do.
In my opinion, if a game is going to boast both solo and group play (which many do), then the rewards for either playstyle should be equal, though I would not necessarily expect them to be identical. If, however, a game boasts being group-oriented or solo-oriented, then the loot and rule sets ought to reflect that - period. Whatever direction the marketing and develoment teams choose to go, though, I personally would like to see that direction made perfectly clear at the outset so that this "argument" loses its teeth...though I do understand perfectly - and even agree with - the idea that, generally speaking, the term MMORPG implies that grouping is strongly encouraged and will yield better loot and greater in-game success in general.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
At the risk of offending some people with my word choice, I am honestly starting to believe that the "separate but equal" strategy is, while not the best possible solution, at least a viable one - if developers would consider looking into it. What that means is, with perhaps a little more time and effort, the soloers (including myself here for the most part, though I am willing to group when necessary either with my guild or with a PUG) can get that "uber sword of doom." Groupers can also get the "uber sword of doom." If the developers are so inclined, they can give the "uber sword of doom" different names: one for the groupers who raided to get it and another for the soloers who get it as a drop somewhere. Keep the stats the same. Aside from the extra development time (which, in the grand scheme, could be fairly minimal), it's not especially difficult to do. In my opinion, if a game is going to boast both solo and group play (which many do), then the rewards for either playstyle should be equal, though I would not necessarily expect them to be identical. If, however, a game boasts being group-oriented or solo-oriented, then the loot and rule sets ought to reflect that - period. Whatever direction the marketing and develoment teams choose to go, though, I personally would like to see that direction made perfectly clear at the outset so that this "argument" loses its teeth...though I do understand perfectly - and even agree with - the idea that, generally speaking, the term MMORPG implies that grouping is strongly encouraged and will yield better loot and greater in-game success in general.
Then that would be a solo game. There's no point to grouping if you can get the sword solo.
Why would it make any difference that you give the sword a different name? Players only care about the stats, not what you call it or waht color it is.
Here's the Uber Slaying Sword of Ultimate Doom and Destruction. It does 1 point of damage.
Here's the Completely Useless Sword of Crappiness. It does 100 points of damage.
All games are different. Each MMO I have played has had a different focus on solo play and group play. AC was extremely solo based but grouping was a blast early on for those first trip in the "dires". DAOC was very group oriented and I was unable to enjoy it past the free month and the same with EQ. The problems really began with the games that tried to cover all game styles like WOW. I strated playing wow and had a blast but then I hit the cap. I learned to group and even had some fun raiding but in general solo play was better. I became upset with WOW because I enjoyed a portion of the game but was not permitted equal footing as those with different playstyles (raiders).
Its easy when each game caters to one playstyle becasue then you can just "not play" hence my dead EQ, DAOC, and EVE accounts. The problem is the bait and switch WOW type games. They pull you in with one style then chage the game later on.
The best game would reward all playstyles for equal effort. This means soloers and groupers and casuals and hardcores. Of course no one would agree what equal effort is
The challenge for us gamers is to find the game with just the right mix for us
NB
Casual = I don't dig into the game and learn all the details I just wanna play around
Hardcore = I theorcraft alot and like to leanr my class/spec in detail and I know lore/gear
Neither of those playstyles have ANYTHING to do with time spent online. My mother-in-law spends 40+ hours a week playing WOW and really enjoys doing achievements but her DPS is horrid. I can only afford 10 hours but I am a much stronger player.
Solo = Prefers to be self-sufficient and attain rewards through personal triumph
Group = Prefers the strategy and social aspects of teams and coordinating to overcome obstacles
Again neither one has anything to do with online time or casual/HC. I have friends at work that always play an MMO together. They play once a week. They suck but they have fun. They never play solo games becasue they only want to group.
Have some classes that are good at stealth like assassinations. Give exp bonus for grouping. There I just solved all of your problems. Groups can go get the uber loot. Other groups or solo players can pk them for the loot. Add in eventual perma death and I just solved your end game issues as well.
yes because full loot open PvP has no "start-game" for me so the end-game is pretty moot.
All games are different. Each MMO I have played has had a different focus on solo play and group play. AC was extremely solo based but grouping was a blast early on for those first trip in the "dires". DAOC was very group oriented and I was unable to enjoy it past the free month and the same with EQ. The problems really began with the games that tried to cover all game styles like WOW. I strated playing wow and had a blast but then I hit the cap. I learned to group and even had some fun raiding but in general solo play was better. I became upset with WOW because I enjoyed a portion of the game but was not permitted equal footing as those with different playstyles (raiders).
See, I'm the exact opposite. I loved EQ and DAoC. I thought they were great grouping games.
I understand WoW has raiding at the end, but I couldn't play it for even the free month because it was a crappy solo game rigth from teh start.
I say make games I like, and make games you like.
I'll play hte EQ and DAoC sort of games, and Devs should make WoW sort of games for you. As for the raiding, just ignore it and quit after Max level, and play the next solo friendly game (there are a zillion of them) and do the same thing.
because people like to force people to do things (like forcing people to group). I call those "control freaks"
Funny thing is...they always talk about how older MMOs were forced solo. But, asheron's call was an awesome solo MMO...BUT...plenty of people grouped in that game.
No one has came back with an argument for that one, and usually gets ignored.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
What's the point? City of Heroes was a solo game, where lots of people grouped.
It's still not a satisfying group game, because the grouping is largely unnecessary.
Just because you CAN group and sometimes do, doesn't mean it's a good grouping game.
Really, all you're saying is you don't want to play a game of basketball because you don't have time for it. If I like playing basketball, well it requires a team. If I don't have the time for a team, then I can't play basketball.
Sure, I can shoot some hoops, but it's not a game of basketball, which is a team based game. I don't think everyone that likes to play basketball is a "control freak", just because they like a team based game.
If basketball doesn't work, we can use frisbee. Sure, I can throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. But it's not much fun. If I want to have a fun game of frisbee, it requires two people. yes, that's more time than just me alone, but I don't really want to stand around and throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. Nothing to do with wanted to "force" you to play frisbee, it's just a game taht I like to play that requires more than one person. Either I have the time to play some frisbee with some, or I don't play frisbee.
Same with poker. Yes, I could play against the computer, but that's not really any fun. I like to play a poker game with some friends. Sure, that requires more time than just turning on my computer, but it's a game that's only fun for me if I'm playing it with other people. Either I have the time to get some people together, or I don't play poker.
In a good grouping MMORPG, I don't mind if I don't find a group. It's just like playing basketball, poker, or frisbee. Those are all games I enjoy playing with other people. If I don't have the time to find other people, or can't find other people, I don't play those games. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG I don't play. Oh, maybe I'll stand around and wack on some single mobs, but I'm just wasting time waiting on a group. I have no desire to try and make progress or complete quests solo in an MMORPG. Just like the other games, I find that's no fun solo.
If I want to play a solo game, I'll turn on Fallout 3, or something like that. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG, I've missed nothing. IT's the same thing as playing frisbee by myself. Pointless, and no fun.
sorry the poker metaphor really doesn't work well - you are playing against those people not with as a team. And solo play is not pointless and no fun - I get much more enjoyment out of it than being in a Legion of Doom group where glory seekers get us all killed.
It is forced social interaction, but if you think that's the goal you are entirely missing the point.
No one wants to force you to interact with anyone. I certainly dont' want to force you to interact with me.
however, I do want a team game.
Imagine if you will, that there is a basketball game, and you want to play solo on the same court. That is going to seriously screw up my team based basket ball game.
And that's what you get when you change the rules on the server to accomomodate the solo players. You seriously screw up my grouping game.
It's nto that I want to MAKE or FORCE you to group. I seriously do not. I just want to play basket ball in teams, or in an MMORPG play the Tank, Nuke, Heal dynamic or something like.
There really is no way to make the game solo friendly without screwing it up for the groupers, or vice a versa. If you can solo, then guess what? I can solo, and my group game is now a piece of crap not worth playing.
It is exacly like chaning the NBA and saying that people can run onto the court and shoot baskets on their own during a game, it's now part of hte rules.
Best you can do, is different rules for different servers. Do I mind if you shoot baskets by yourself? Of course I do not. But that doesn't mean you get to change the rules of basketball to allow that during a team game. That messes up the team game if you're doing that on the court at the same time I'm trying to play a game.
Different courts would mean different servers.
Basically, people that like to solo call for "balance" and mean, give me a solo game.
i understand what youre saying here, but unfortunately solo gaming is being sacrificed to keep group players happy..im not talking about just in MMO's im talking about gaming in general, the people that like to play solo get the short end of the stick when it comes to a lot of games these days...its a shame but its the truth...now when it comes to MMO's, youre right about WOW getting it right......what developers need to remember when building games that low levels are solo..mid levels solo..some higher levels CAN be solo'd but if you want the really good stuff.....you have to do the instances type of mission..and that means grouping.....so you can have both....but both types of players have to realise..compromise is the key to MMO's
Comments
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
Yes, in answer to your question, and sometimes almost impossible. EVE is a good example - more for being part of a guild than a group. If you can truly solo EVE - with no group or Corp associations - even in 0.0 space - please let me know - just so that I can ask you how you do it. And by that I mean you solo'd the game from the start.
I am currently waiting for Champions Online - I have no idea of whether it will be solo, group or a mix. Probably somewhat of a mix. I like the game idea, so i will play it. I will try soloing, and if that doesn't pay off I will join a guild or whatever it will be called and group with my guild mates - people who I can interact with and plan attempts with. I try to adapt to the game, but I also like challenges which means I will never not try playing solo.
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'.
I can see that going over well with the groupers.
In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game:
a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss
or
b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests
Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
Wouldn't soloing be even more of a challenge in a game created for group play? I mean, even in the most hc group games I know, soloing is still possible somehow (and it takes quite a bit of skill, even).
In that setup then the soloers should get the better rewards since they completed the bigger challenge and put more effort into the game? ie if you beat the Big, Bad Ogre quest solo, you get the Sword of Doom but if you group up for it you only get the Poking Stick since you did it on 'eazy mode'.
I can see that going over well with the groupers.
In a similar vein, who put more effort into the game:
a) a grouper who powerleveled to the end game, joined a raid and beat a boss
or
b) a soloer who over months completed 95% of the quests in a game with 4000 quests
Which of these players is more 'deserving' of a reward?
uh just for the record i wanted to say that I was never arguing about the rewards, just the linkage between casual play and solo play.
Some want a challenge, some want ezmode spoonfed.
Make different servers, let us choose what we play on! give us the choice!
SOE for example blanket nerf every game they have, alienate players, why???
We can all be happy, different servers! call one "Hero's" for challenging game with a real death penalty"
Other call "Losers" for ezmode gameplay!
All you winey players who cry at the least bit of challenge make me sick, you only encourage the contined WOWification of the MMORPG game scene.
Just like in real life, when you get things handed to you those things aint worth shit!
Mythic's? LOL GTFO!
Ehh if you do it for the challenge (like the guy I quoted said he did), then that's what he got out of it. A challenge.
Wouldn't the guy who soloed million quests get better rewards in the end (quantity, not quality)?
Ehh if you do it for the challenge (like the guy I quoted said he did), then that's what he got out of it. A challenge.
Wouldn't the guy who soloed million quests get better rewards in the end (quantity, not quality)?
I am all for a 'do it for the challenge' system, however, that would also mean that groupers would not be getting better gear than soloers:)
Ultimately, I think we are focusing on the wrong 'reward'. At the core the biggest reward the devs can give to a group of players is new, better content. So the best raiders would get more raids, best solo questers would get more solo quests, best crafters would get more stuff to craft, best explorere would get new places to explore, etc. The root of the problem is that the best new content for too long has been geared for the groupers and the other player groups got leftovers.
If MMORPGs can get away from the progression-through-gear philoosphy a lot of this issue would fall away. New game content is too much tied into gear so the fight for queal content becomes a fight for equal gear. Gear should stop being the reward and become merely the tool for progression.
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
This would obviously be a problem only in a game where both soloing and grouping would try to be on an equal position (most of the MMO's I guess).
If the game is made for groupers, that won't be a problem
but it's a legitimate concern for games that mix up the 2 playstyles, true.
What? All the content in MMORPGs is the same. Kill something, get xp, loot, do quest get xp loot.
The "content' doesn''t get any better, so that's not much of a reward.
Here's some crap. But wait! if you group, I'll give you even MORE crap, and that's your reward!
Gee, no thanks. I think I'll take more xp and loot instead.
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
You groupers act as if we soloers have never partied. From my experience, the amount of time or inconvenience associated with grouping doesn't even remotely justify the superior rewards or exclusive content. This is purely an arbitrary decision made by the developers, not because you have actually earned it more than soloers or even duos.
These are competing play styles and they can never be reconciled. You give equal rewards and groupers get bitchy. You give groups better rewards and soloers get bitchy. You see, the middle ground is giving all play style equal access and rewards, but you still make groupers and raider angry by doing this. Until they come out with a solo oriented game with grouping as an option, we will always be third rate.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I think I'll start calling them "group entitlement whores" .. people that think that just because they play in groups, they are entitled to exclusively superior rewards. I'll throw them in with "powergamer entitlement whores" .. players that think that just because they have more free time and a willingness to sacrifice their real life for a video game, they should get exclusively superior rewards.
Grouping is not as effiicient as playing solo. Playing solo, you don't have too coordinate with anyone, or wait on anyone to take a biobreak, or wait on anyone to arrive if they are on the other side of the zone, or wait on them to regain health, respawn if they die, etc., etc.
If you don't compensate for that time, grouping is pointless because all you're doing is gimping yourself by grouping. I don't know any game where "fun" compensates for gimping yourself.
Yes, it's fun to group, but not if you're going to gimp yourself.
You groupers act as if we soloers have never partied. From my experience, the amount of time or inconvenience associated with grouping doesn't even remotely justify the superior rewards or exclusive content. This is purely an arbitrary decision made by the developers, not because you have actually earned it more than soloers or even duos.
These are competing play styles and they can never be reconciled. You give equal rewards and groupers get bitchy. You give groups better rewards and soloers get bitchy. You see, the middle ground is giving all play style equal access and rewards, but you still make groupers and raider angry by doing this. Until they come out with a solo oriented game with grouping as an option, we will always be third rate.
Agreed 100%! Well said.
Make solo games for solo players. Sure, you CAN group if you want to in those games, it may even be fun sometimes, but really it's quite pointless because it's unnecessary.
Make group games for group players. Sure, you CAN solo in those games, but it's going to be a long painful road to the top for the soloer.
100% of all solutions I have seen proposed for making a game that is great for solo AND group players, is just a solo player saying groupers shouldn't be upset if solo players get the exact same content and rewards as groupers.
Do you even know what the argument is about? lol.
Of course, I happen to be pointing out one of the many flaws in your argument. The reality is, many, if not most people have lives and cannot always commit to a group. They often have limited time to play and spending 80% of your play time looking for a group is not a good return on the time invested. You, of course, seem to be mad that these people aren't online 24/7 so they can be group whores. I'm pointing out that the people who spend 24/7 on any game are known in the colloquial as "failures" and need a life.
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Oh, so you do agree with me, that is good to know.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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Those solo players wouldn't even try the 'forced' group MMO if they didn't even want to try. It's not forcing 'against their will' if those players are given the choice to not to play the game in the first place. And you can't say players wouldn't try it out, although those stuck in the 'make everything a copy of <insert solo MMO here>' mindset probably wouldn't bother trying out new things.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
What's the point? City of Heroes was a solo game, where lots of people grouped.
It's still not a satisfying group game, because the grouping is largely unnecessary.
Just because you CAN group and sometimes do, doesn't mean it's a good grouping game.
Really, all you're saying is you don't want to play a game of basketball because you don't have time for it. If I like playing basketball, well it requires a team. If I don't have the time for a team, then I can't play basketball.
Sure, I can shoot some hoops, but it's not a game of basketball, which is a team based game. I don't think everyone that likes to play basketball is a "control freak", just because they like a team based game.
If basketball doesn't work, we can use frisbee. Sure, I can throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. But it's not much fun. If I want to have a fun game of frisbee, it requires two people. yes, that's more time than just me alone, but I don't really want to stand around and throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. Nothing to do with wanted to "force" you to play frisbee, it's just a game taht I like to play that requires more than one person. Either I have the time to play some frisbee with some, or I don't play frisbee.
Same with poker. Yes, I could play against the computer, but that's not really any fun. I like to play a poker game with some friends. Sure, that requires more time than just turning on my computer, but it's a game that's only fun for me if I'm playing it with other people. Either I have the time to get some people together, or I don't play poker.
In a good grouping MMORPG, I don't mind if I don't find a group. It's just like playing basketball, poker, or frisbee. Those are all games I enjoy playing with other people. If I don't have the time to find other people, or can't find other people, I don't play those games. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG I don't play. Oh, maybe I'll stand around and wack on some single mobs, but I'm just wasting time waiting on a group. I have no desire to try and make progress or complete quests solo in an MMORPG. Just like the other games, I find that's no fun solo.
If I want to play a solo game, I'll turn on Fallout 3, or something like that. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG, I've missed nothing. IT's the same thing as playing frisbee by myself. Pointless, and no fun.
At the risk of offending some people with my word choice, I am honestly starting to believe that the "separate but equal" strategy is, while not the best possible solution, at least a viable one - if developers would consider looking into it.
What that means is, with perhaps a little more time and effort, the soloers (including myself here for the most part, though I am willing to group when necessary either with my guild or with a PUG) can get that "uber sword of doom." Groupers can also get the "uber sword of doom." If the developers are so inclined, they can give the "uber sword of doom" different names: one for the groupers who raided to get it and another for the soloers who get it as a drop somewhere. Keep the stats the same. Aside from the extra development time (which, in the grand scheme, could be fairly minimal), it's not especially difficult to do.
In my opinion, if a game is going to boast both solo and group play (which many do), then the rewards for either playstyle should be equal, though I would not necessarily expect them to be identical. If, however, a game boasts being group-oriented or solo-oriented, then the loot and rule sets ought to reflect that - period. Whatever direction the marketing and develoment teams choose to go, though, I personally would like to see that direction made perfectly clear at the outset so that this "argument" loses its teeth...though I do understand perfectly - and even agree with - the idea that, generally speaking, the term MMORPG implies that grouping is strongly encouraged and will yield better loot and greater in-game success in general.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Then that would be a solo game. There's no point to grouping if you can get the sword solo.
Why would it make any difference that you give the sword a different name? Players only care about the stats, not what you call it or waht color it is.
Here's the Uber Slaying Sword of Ultimate Doom and Destruction. It does 1 point of damage.
Here's the Completely Useless Sword of Crappiness. It does 100 points of damage.
Which one you want?
All games are different. Each MMO I have played has had a different focus on solo play and group play. AC was extremely solo based but grouping was a blast early on for those first trip in the "dires". DAOC was very group oriented and I was unable to enjoy it past the free month and the same with EQ. The problems really began with the games that tried to cover all game styles like WOW. I strated playing wow and had a blast but then I hit the cap. I learned to group and even had some fun raiding but in general solo play was better. I became upset with WOW because I enjoyed a portion of the game but was not permitted equal footing as those with different playstyles (raiders).
Its easy when each game caters to one playstyle becasue then you can just "not play" hence my dead EQ, DAOC, and EVE accounts. The problem is the bait and switch WOW type games. They pull you in with one style then chage the game later on.
The best game would reward all playstyles for equal effort. This means soloers and groupers and casuals and hardcores. Of course no one would agree what equal effort is
The challenge for us gamers is to find the game with just the right mix for us
NB
Casual = I don't dig into the game and learn all the details I just wanna play around
Hardcore = I theorcraft alot and like to leanr my class/spec in detail and I know lore/gear
Neither of those playstyles have ANYTHING to do with time spent online. My mother-in-law spends 40+ hours a week playing WOW and really enjoys doing achievements but her DPS is horrid. I can only afford 10 hours but I am a much stronger player.
Solo = Prefers to be self-sufficient and attain rewards through personal triumph
Group = Prefers the strategy and social aspects of teams and coordinating to overcome obstacles
Again neither one has anything to do with online time or casual/HC. I have friends at work that always play an MMO together. They play once a week. They suck but they have fun. They never play solo games becasue they only want to group.
Just make a game full loot open pvp.
Have some classes that are good at stealth like assassinations.
Give exp bonus for grouping.
There I just solved all of your problems.
Groups can go get the uber loot. Other groups or solo players can pk them for the loot.
Add in eventual perma death and I just solved your end game issues as well.
yes because full loot open PvP has no "start-game" for me so the end-game is pretty moot.
See, I'm the exact opposite. I loved EQ and DAoC. I thought they were great grouping games.
I understand WoW has raiding at the end, but I couldn't play it for even the free month because it was a crappy solo game rigth from teh start.
I say make games I like, and make games you like.
I'll play hte EQ and DAoC sort of games, and Devs should make WoW sort of games for you. As for the raiding, just ignore it and quit after Max level, and play the next solo friendly game (there are a zillion of them) and do the same thing.
Of course it gets ignored, they have no answer for it. It's funny that they somehow instinctlvely recognize that the overwhelming majority of people solo and they think if they just forced all of those people to group, that they'd somehow reach grouping nirvana and everyone would realize just how wonderful grouping all the time is.
In reality, we know that the vast majority of those solo players, if faced with being forced to group against their will, would just leave the game and go elsewhere and the pro-groupers would still be left with the same situation: not enough people willing to group with them.
When you're a tiny little minority that can't come up with any rational reasons why anyone should support their position, I guess the "control freak" move is all they have left.
What's the point? City of Heroes was a solo game, where lots of people grouped.
It's still not a satisfying group game, because the grouping is largely unnecessary.
Just because you CAN group and sometimes do, doesn't mean it's a good grouping game.
Really, all you're saying is you don't want to play a game of basketball because you don't have time for it. If I like playing basketball, well it requires a team. If I don't have the time for a team, then I can't play basketball.
Sure, I can shoot some hoops, but it's not a game of basketball, which is a team based game. I don't think everyone that likes to play basketball is a "control freak", just because they like a team based game.
If basketball doesn't work, we can use frisbee. Sure, I can throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. But it's not much fun. If I want to have a fun game of frisbee, it requires two people. yes, that's more time than just me alone, but I don't really want to stand around and throw the frisbee up and catch it by myself. Nothing to do with wanted to "force" you to play frisbee, it's just a game taht I like to play that requires more than one person. Either I have the time to play some frisbee with some, or I don't play frisbee.
Same with poker. Yes, I could play against the computer, but that's not really any fun. I like to play a poker game with some friends. Sure, that requires more time than just turning on my computer, but it's a game that's only fun for me if I'm playing it with other people. Either I have the time to get some people together, or I don't play poker.
In a good grouping MMORPG, I don't mind if I don't find a group. It's just like playing basketball, poker, or frisbee. Those are all games I enjoy playing with other people. If I don't have the time to find other people, or can't find other people, I don't play those games. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG I don't play. Oh, maybe I'll stand around and wack on some single mobs, but I'm just wasting time waiting on a group. I have no desire to try and make progress or complete quests solo in an MMORPG. Just like the other games, I find that's no fun solo.
If I want to play a solo game, I'll turn on Fallout 3, or something like that. So if I can't find a group in an MMORPG, I've missed nothing. IT's the same thing as playing frisbee by myself. Pointless, and no fun.
sorry the poker metaphor really doesn't work well - you are playing against those people not with as a team. And solo play is not pointless and no fun - I get much more enjoyment out of it than being in a Legion of Doom group where glory seekers get us all killed.
It is forced social interaction, but if you think that's the goal you are entirely missing the point.
No one wants to force you to interact with anyone. I certainly dont' want to force you to interact with me.
however, I do want a team game.
Imagine if you will, that there is a basketball game, and you want to play solo on the same court. That is going to seriously screw up my team based basket ball game.
And that's what you get when you change the rules on the server to accomomodate the solo players. You seriously screw up my grouping game.
It's nto that I want to MAKE or FORCE you to group. I seriously do not. I just want to play basket ball in teams, or in an MMORPG play the Tank, Nuke, Heal dynamic or something like.
There really is no way to make the game solo friendly without screwing it up for the groupers, or vice a versa. If you can solo, then guess what? I can solo, and my group game is now a piece of crap not worth playing.
It is exacly like chaning the NBA and saying that people can run onto the court and shoot baskets on their own during a game, it's now part of hte rules.
Best you can do, is different rules for different servers. Do I mind if you shoot baskets by yourself? Of course I do not. But that doesn't mean you get to change the rules of basketball to allow that during a team game. That messes up the team game if you're doing that on the court at the same time I'm trying to play a game.
Different courts would mean different servers.
Basically, people that like to solo call for "balance" and mean, give me a solo game.
i understand what youre saying here, but unfortunately solo gaming is being sacrificed to keep group players happy..im not talking about just in MMO's im talking about gaming in general, the people that like to play solo get the short end of the stick when it comes to a lot of games these days...its a shame but its the truth...now when it comes to MMO's, youre right about WOW getting it right......what developers need to remember when building games that low levels are solo..mid levels solo..some higher levels CAN be solo'd but if you want the really good stuff.....you have to do the instances type of mission..and that means grouping.....so you can have both....but both types of players have to realise..compromise is the key to MMO's