Speaking of heroes, who the hell's bicep is that on the home page for this article? I work out like a mad man and would love to have biceps with that form to it. Mine just keep getting bigger but don't have that shape.
Anyone know how to get biceps like that. Because if I had those I would be my own hero!
love to have a deformed muscles?...that just looks gross tbh.
id rather be lean and have a defined form that looks good
I rather prefer humility overall. But will list achievements like anyone else will if the situation calls for it.
As to heroic the only times I feel "heroic, which to me is the entirely wrong term", are when I manage to do something solo or in a very small group that people say I/we shouldn't be able to do. Even then I rarely feel the need to brag about it to anyone. It is a virtual environment, a game that each of us has to make our own way in and decide what makes us feel happy for having spent time in it.
ie, to me there is no "heroism", there is only the relative happiness and sense of accomplishment each person gets and how they go about getting it. If to you it requires a group and raiding for 12 hours a day that is fine. If it requires nothing more than gaining a level every few days and slowly making your way through all the content of a game, also fine. Yes I am almost always unimpressed with anything anyone does anywhere in an MMO. If you want to see true heroism or be a real hero then it requires doing something in reality for the good of others.
Speaking of heroes, who the hell's bicep is that on the home page for this article? I work out like a mad man and would love to have biceps with that form to it. Mine just keep getting bigger but don't have that shape.
Anyone know how to get biceps like that. Because if I had those I would be my own hero!
love to have a deformed muscles?...that just looks gross tbh.
id rather be lean and have a defined form that looks good
If that's gross, then I'd love to be gross. That is awesome!
And that is lean and defined. You can make out the different sections of the muscle. You have to do different types of curls to focus on each part. I want to know what he does.
I don't know, I think "heroism" is sort of a subjective word. By that, I mean that I don't really see killing a monster through teamwork as inherently heroic. I liked where your article started though: in the past, we didn't brag. Now, MMO's are all about becoming the "best" and it always results in players looking out only for their own interests. You know what makes me feel heroic? Dying for the team. I've always played Tank characters. Final Fantasy XI always made me feel like a hero. I was the Paladin, I've got shining white armor. I take the hits so my team doesn't have to. When things go bad, I Provoke the monster and lead it away from my group as they flee to safety. Perhaps I die, perhaps I even de-level, but I saved my team from a complete wipe. They all thank me for a job well done. I feel like a hero. I'm crossing a low level zone on my way to my group. A new player accidently links a group of mobs and is certainly going to die. He's running for it. Fear not, friend! I provoke the head monster, and as it begins to attack me, I place a Cure on the running player. I finish off the rest of the mobs, cast Protect on the player and go on my way. He thanks me and I simply nod. I feel like a hero. Do I see this often though? No. I see people call for help, but no hero answers the call. How many MMO players actually look out for their fellow players? How many out there say "you can camp this notorious monster, I've gotten the drop before." How many players say "go ahead and roll on that gear, I'll pass--it'll do you more good than me." Not many, I'd say. I think heroism in a game is defined in much the same way it would be in the real world. By the character of the people behind the avatar, not by the size of their axe. But that's just me.
Bravo, you hit it on the head. You have a better understanding of this than the reviewier.
I've felt heroic often... but the frequency of this occurence for me has declined drastically over the passed years.
Before open beta jumping to get the edge on other players- seeking the most hardcore grind groups to blow through levels- before being the first to the end was the only thing you could openly be proud of in the gaming community- your own accomplishments meant something not only to you- but to other people as well... Now it seems there is no reason to do anything but rush to the highest level... because nothing you do on the way matters in the end... all that epic gear you sought after is worthless at cap because there is better to get much easier and everyone knows it...
No one is around to help out in places they have already been, because zones are instanced or linear... there is no reason to stay in spot A after lvl X because the most efficient exp is now spot B- and since the gear doesn't matter until the end, because achievements can be achieved at any level and because most gamers possess at least a basic grasping of logic, it is actually unefficient and wasteful to do anything else...
At one point being an explorer- knowing where things were because you took the time to seek it out was a useful and sought after thing... As a community we truly have begun our own demise... we are too efficient- we gather data on every drop from every mob, we see that fighting mob 1 over a 2 hour period yields more exp than questing in location B for the same amount of time... If we want to know what the best item we can get for our level is... we google, or one of the many springboard sites that offer everything you want to know about the game you're playing...
For me- Heroism is dead... not because you can't go back and be that cool guy that helps out... but because you will be laughed at when you were helping some noob while your friends grinded 2 levels. But if you play only for you... turn your global/regional/trade chat off and are ok with knowing that you aren't the best and don't have a shot at it because you choose not to... then Heroism is alive and well for you.
I think that MMO developers are slowly learning that entering a instance with 24 other people you barley know and can hardly stand to be around is the furthest thing from feeling heroic. Smaller more tight knit groups akin to the days of Pen and Paper D&D are more likely to give that heroic feeling than having some 14 year old sociopath shout orders at you over vent. I hear it all the time from groups in WoW Man uthgarde pinnacle was a blast......but Ulduar was stab your eyes out stupid not because of the content it was dealing with all the attitudes. And Blizzard developers are hearing this too, last Blizzcon Metzen said 85% of the players were doing less than 55% of the content.
They are doing less because every member you add to the group the asshat chance increases by 20%. This is why I doubt very highly that we will see more 25 man Raids in the next WoW expansion, it will be five and ten man with heroic versions of each. SOE is even saying this is too much, DCUO will have Heroic missions for Two to Five players that scales depending on group size. The message that we are seeing is the EQ raid structure and the archaic Guild system is dead, peopel don't have time for complex scocial networks in their real lives much less their virtual ones unless they have no life at all.
It will be interesting to revisit this in two years.
Another great article. MMORPG.com are doing top job picking up stuff to write about. Thumbs up !
But about feeling heroic. There were the days when I felt heroic playing pure grinders (LOM 3 for example) on a private server with 3-5 other ppl playing. There were also the times when I felt heroic when doing Deadmines at lvl 15 (or something). That was then... this is now - and beeing heroic in a game is no longer what this is about. And why not ? you might ask ?
The main reason why MMOs are no longer heroic is based on the way that the CORE builds of the games have changed. Quests and questlines (like the early class questlines in WOW) made you feel that bit special. Getting my paladin mount in Scholomance was special - and surely felt heroic. Then BLizzard desided that class questlines are bad... and removed it. And then Blizzard desided that the lvling wasn't really anything heroic anymore. The journey through 10 more lvls was secondary and unbalanced cause it was all about BALANCE at highest lvl.
And now games are even taking it one step further - you can lvl by just killing others. Thing is... I dont find anything heroic about PVP. If someone wins in PVP - then it also means that someone lost too. So no matter how you look at it - there can be no real winner - unless you mean the connection you play through or SPEC of your PC. But that has exactly nothing to do with heros.
I have always said from from my first day of mmoRPG gaming that I play with ppl - not against ppl. It doesn't mean Im a bad player. I just dont see the purpose of beating up ppl in a game. - I rather talk with them. Laughing at them when they are dead on the ground gives me no pleasure. So - my version of heros are those that work together - just like the OP suggested. And after years of totally pointless raiding - I still feel that way. But in a slighty diffrent way.
So... here is the thing.. MMOs today have nothing to do with RPG. Games like WOW today are just about compettition of this and that and you can aparently only feel heroic if you kill this or that before some other did it . Or won this many Arena matches while exactly same amount of players lost the same amount of matches. And your character - your class - your progress - your journey through the game.... thats worth nothing.
The current heros of MMOs are nobodies that deticate(destroy) their lifes playing these games. PPL like KUNGEN are the heros ... acording to BLizzard and their major leage gaming promotions. Its the person behind the character that gets the publicity - not the character. And thats why MMOs are no longer about RPG. And to me - thats when the heroic part fades off.
As soon as MMO games will be able to go back to the journey instead of beeing about the end - then we can go back talking about heros. It has nothing to do about who gets to the end first... thats the biggest lowlife on your server most likely. His character is the hero... and thats why he plays.
Its all about RPG. Games are about having fun, forgetting the daily, stressfull real life that most NORMAL ppl (including kids) go through every day. Its not about beeing BETTER than others that play with or against you. Its about beeing a hero WITH THEM.
Having wings and be able to fly (in AION) should be special to everyone. It doesn't matter who can fly first - or highest - or longest. Good LONG questlines with a quality cutshenes (yes, even in an MMO) can't hurt. Sadly the good old days of class quests seems to be over... The reason for it tho ... is because the DEVELOPERS only focused on the end content. NOT the journey.
Anyway - that was my heroic rant for today. Back to babysitting my 2 year old ! Hes questing in the bathrom atm !
the problem isn't that we haven't really been given the opportunity to feel like heroes it's that the devs assume everyone wants to be a hero (and if everyone is a hero then i sort of defeats the purpose of heroes...). I know plenty of people who don't mind being that random (insert class and race here) that lives in the forest and hunts bears all day. Granted i also know people who truely do want to be a hero, but it's not eveyone i meet. These MMO's seem to cater to the later far too much and focus too much on one players story rather than the games story (how many times have we heard calls for changing worlds based on our actions?).
If i really wanted to feel like a hero then i would play one of the many single player games who trump MMO's in the story/immersion department. I come to play MMO's to explore and live in a persistant and different world.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I think there is more to being a hero than just what the devs give you. You have to act like a hero in the game. If I see someone who is acting like a jerk, I don't care what gear they're wearing or what skills they've leveled up. As far as I'm concerned, they're a peon living in the gutters.
I think there is more to being a hero than just what the devs give you. You have to act like a hero in the game. If I see someone who is acting like a jerk, I don't care what gear they're wearing or what skills they've leveled up. As far as I'm concerned, they're a peon living in the gutters.
Good topic and congratz on the Little one Garrett!
Where is our heroic experience? I think it got lost when i believe alot ppl stopped rping or pretending they are somewhere else. Too many ppl tunnel vision to the next level or aquiring that sword of ganking infinity. I hate to say this but console game provide a better heroic experience because its just you vs the world and not the amount of heroes on a server.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR. Playing EVE Online and AOC. Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
You can do some spectacular things in WoW, but in all the games I've played there was nothing like old school EQ. Before there was a solid understanding if things like hate lists, poll times, hell, we were all wearing fine steel vendor armor, our public raiding server reached Bzzazzt island in Sky.. before Kunark. We cleared Pegasus island when the Shimmering Meteors were all mistakenly given boss abilities including death touch. It wasn't about what I personally had done, but the monumental sense of communal accomplishment. In EQ, just getting out with your current level and your gear was a challenge in some encounters, and some of my most vivid memories are elaborate corpse recovery schemes, from naked planes breaks to salvaging a semi-successful first attempt on the Chardok Queen for the server's first warrior epic.
I forgot about Vox.. ours was about the last of the original servers to kill Vox, primarily because of the public-first initiative kept the server back until around Kunark came out. When one of the community leaders finally decided it was time for her to die, we had well over 100 people, which we divided into two waves, one inside the zone and one outside the zone, and went at her for eight hours (yes, the problem was we had too many people, hah) . I bound myself in her escape corridor, and ended up losing three levels by the time, eight hours later, we'd finally lost enough people that we could take her down without half the raid going linkdead. I had screenshots of myself futily meleeing her with no color in any of my bars (which also amusingly showed how ignorant we were at the time, with our server's lead enchanter busily chain casting AE stun against unstunnable mobs)
Very interesting read! It covers my main issues with MMOs, and one reason I stayed away from MMOs in the early days. I come from a pen and paper background myself, and the one thing which always frustrated me about MMOs is simply, you kill those 10 gnolls and the repop behind you. For the next folks. It entirely always kills my feeling of having an impact. Sure, when I play a Pen and Paper game, I know thousands of others do that too. But I dont see them. In my perception it is me and my friends only who did that. There is a story which happens to me and my group. No one else. That is what made me feel heroic. Not the loot, not the drops, no - the fact that I dont see the world repop right behind me for the next one. It is like you go to a stage wizard, and he shows you the tricks. It spoils the fun. That is for me what spoils MMOs, I can see the mechanics working, and I can see it is all just fake. It makes it difficult to feel pride about your accomplishments, when that boss mob is back 5 minutes later. At least that is my biggest issue.
I recall vividly when I heard first time of UO, when it was one of the only 2 MMOs. I let a UO gamers show it to me... and I was totally baffled why anyone would play that. Why should I want to be a TAILOR? Or a Blacksmith?? To this very day, crafting is entirely beyond me. I mean, I'd play tetris or Pacman rather than crafting. I mean... its WORK, hello? And why would I like to be an anonymous worker-nobody again, like in RL? And then people always were ganked. Killed. It was hardcore. Which is also something that escapes me. Escapism is my drive to go into a game, computer or not. I want to feel great, like a hero or warrior or adventurer, as a contrast to the average nobody I am like all of us in RL. Why should I feel like a powerless everybody again?? That is why things like hardcore gameplay, death penalities or crafting are entirely illogical to me. They all serve to reinforce this concept that I am a weak nobody. And sorry I have that all day for free already. No need to pay a MMO for that again! If I want hardcore penality experience, I go to my jobcenter and I get it all hardcore and penalities for free! (Hello fellow Germans, who know what I speak of.^^)
I think the WOW model is one of the worst way, always hanging new carrots, driving people with greed and envy... I find that too "restless" and artificial. I value MMO memories of doing some adventure with good friends. Thats why I dont understand that soloism trend at all. Whats it worth doing it all alone? For me it is the shared experience, the adventure you can talk with you friends year later "hey, you still recall when we hunted those rare boars on Tatooine for days?", and it brings a smile on all your friend's faces. I bring this SWG memory for a reason. The planets were so big, you rarely saw too many other players really at the exact same thing. It made the illusion that your team made something genuine easier. In crowded, densly populated worlds that is much more difficult, at least without heavy instancing, which I dont like either. LOTRO book quests were also great, and AoC Tortage, even tho the latter was way to solo-oriented. LOTRO book and the cutscene / event character of the highlights of the stories in LOTRO are a good way, and looking at SWTOR I hope that is the future trend of MMOs, bringing finally this feeling you really did something special, and not farm 78687 mobs of X for the gear to kill mob Z asf.
One way you can make people more special is class specific experiences. I recall when I was in that Ranger training camp in Vanguard, where I got some special skills at the end of the quest-line, which was only for Rangers, that was cool. Or in my brief days in WOW, when my Druid got access to the Druid valley, where at that time only Druids could enter. I felt so special! I liked that, and it didnt matter that other Druids could enter it, not but it generated a feeling of "us selected few". Or in Free Realms, when I did Medic quests, which really gave me the feeling "hey I am a doctor"; I did stuff which was only for that class in the world, and for the first time I had a really good feeling for a healer class, because it was connected to special tasks in the world only my class could do. I found that kind of special tasks for classes very interesting. Or you could think of special racial quest-lines or theme parks, like Imperial & Rebel Themepark. There are many things which have already been tried, but far too less and rarely.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yeah, mmo's make everyone a hero and the 'special' person running around saving the world blablabla thereby making everyone some bleeding copycats and nobodys. I like how AoC tell you this backstory in the beginning that you're destined to save stuff etc. All that lose its shine when you realise every other person you see is all the same. Reminds me of a joke Yathzee took on that - You're the chosen one or some shit but it all get a little less epic when you have that nimbling thought in the back of your mind that all the other players you see also is the chosen one, all dickheads who are plotting your murder, all special and all some bleeding twatmonkeys I tend to agree...Heroes don't exists in mmo's. We're all just the same old buggers doing the same old stuff over and over again. That become quite ironic in City of Heroes. No heroes in City of Heroes..hahah
I've never felt more of a hero than when I've been apart of a small, very skilled PvP group in Lineage 2. Sometimes we would have to take on overwhelming odds in order to be victorious. In Lineage 2, being a hero really didn't mean saving the day, no one really cared if you killed Baium at the top of Tower of Insolence. In fact people often resented you for it, because you had something they would hope to achieve and you are standing in your way. On the way to becoming a hero you sometimes become the villain. That sometimes is how it works in these games, yes you become a hero in that people admire and look up to you, but they want to achieve what you've done and then envy and jealousy take over. You eventually become both a Hero and a Villain.
Like previously said I love being apart of a team and working together to complete a task. Whether if it's a sport like Hockey and assisting on the winning goal or if it's in an MMO where I pulled off a huge AoE combo that was the deciding factor in our PvP win. I don't play MMO's for the quests, the text or any of that. I simply play because they are the best games with the mindset of "if you and friends work together you can achieve anything". I don't play to be immersed or to feel like a guy in 16th century with a sword swinging and decapitating infidels.
We were once heroes, today we are but mercenaries lost in a forest of gear updates and titles.
It was that pride in our realm that made us feel we were heroes of the realm. Otherwise what does being better (in any way) in the game matter?
The 3 realm system is essential. It stops one realm dominating the game permantly, I remember my realm in DAOC allying with another to push back the third.
To have real RvR you must have realm pride and this must come beofore guild and personnal achievment. Making the best leveling area RvR dependent and giving realms bonuses for holding areas does that. Making dungeons a realm effort helps too.
CodenameXen talked about the decline in the heroic behaviour of helping other players. Spot on, that’s dieing out as well.
I wonder how much of our MMO problems have occurred due to a reduction in the average age of those who play? What with cartoon graphics, the introduction of consoles and so on it’s a wonder anyone over 25 plays anymore.
Me I keep waiting for the day SoE unveils the practical use of the idea it patented several years ago. The idea they patented was to use ultra sonic pulses to stimulate the brain for fully in your head vr, with a reciver attached to your head to read what your brain did to that an react in turn. The basic idea if applied would be the most impressive idea ever in gaming, course that patent was aquired three years ago an after it was no news since. Until you get a living world in mmo's your not going to feel heroic. The cloest I ever felt was playing in muds and EQ back in the day, when they did GM events that effected the world. Those events took on a almost legendary aspect as "You had to be there to believe it" became a big part of it. The players that came later always had to deal with the fact they missed those moments.
With the current degrading returns in mmo's I don't see us ever having those moments again, with things like the architect in CoH. As well as many other games turning to the idea of player built content and sand box worlds you see an increase in what I call lazy gming. The gods that just build a world in a story then walk away suck, it's the ones that keep mixing it up that are fun. It's the same with devs and gms. If you build it then stop, it gets dull.
I do believe that the heroics in MMOs come from working as a team. Whether it is a raid or giant PvP fight, working together is the reason I have played MMOs from the beginning. Like the D&D groups of old, it is fun to have a role and play it well. For now write in and let me know if you have ever felt heroic in an MMO, or if MMOs just make us all the same.
Ironically, very seldom do I ever feel "heroic" when working with a team, though beating an instance with a small group can occasionally feel that way. I am MUCH more likely to feel "heroic" when I accomplish something on my own.
The game that did the best job of taking me through a story and giving me a sense of accomplishment was Guild Wars, and I completed all three campaigns and the expansion, pretty much all by my badself (using henchmen/Heroes) -- only grouping in that game when a friend was online or I just felt a bit more social.
Thus, I would respectfully take issue with your statement that "the heroics in MMOs come from working as a team". It is, oddly, working in a team that is most likely to destroy any sense (for me) of feeling heroic, because (again, for me) feeling heroic is linked to immersion, and too many real-life players do their level best to speak OOC, act like spoiled brats and cretins, and destroy immersion: "We so totally owned that $%&#-er!" Yeah, right. "Heroic." NOT.
*Sigh*
I do wish more MMOs would offer players more options on how to complete content.... I would play with people for casual fun but group only with NPCs/solo/RP-ers (a rare breed) when I felt like immersion and feeling "heroic."
I never feel heroic doing the kind of hoops the game has in place for me to jump though. More often than not I feel like crap while somebody using an exploit or who bands together with a regular group freight trains over me. Then there are the guilds who have people who take advantage of players in order for them to get on the A list for grouping. Its all rather depressing.
Back in the earlier days of mmorpgs I felt more heroic because then there was a tendency for players to really be a hero helping out other players. Now days it seems its all about selfishness, not much heroics in that.
We were once heroes, today we are but mercenairs lost in a forest of gear updates and titles. It was that pride in our realm that made us feel we were heroes of the realm. Otherwise what does being better (in any way) in the game matter? The 3 realm system is essential. It stops one realm dominating the game permantly, I remember my realm in DAOC allying with another to push back the third. To have real RvR you must have realm pride and this must come beofore guild and personnal achievment. Making the best leveling area RvR dependent and giving realms bonuses for holding areas does that. Making dungeons a realm effort helps too. CodenameXen talked about the decline in the heroic behaviour of helping other players. Spot on, that’s dieing out as well. I wonder how much of our MMO problems have occurred due to a reduction in the average age of those who play? What with cartoon graphics, the introduction of consoles and so on it’s a wonder anyone over 25 plays anymore.
I can relate to this. I play RF Online and its 3 realm system, Accretia(cyborgs), Bellato(namely cute dwarves) and Cora(elves). I do feel like whenever I can run to low lvl areas when they are yelling "raiders in 213", as I play Accretia. I might or might not wipe out the raiders, but just the rush of running and helping my fellow racemates makes me feel a real hero!!
Another thing is when I go raiding the other races realm, I do feel like a hero when taking the fight to them, even better when there is a guild raid!!! when we get back to our hq and start counting how much kills and CP(contribution points) we got really makes the day!!
So summing up, I think feeling heroic in a game is just a matter of personal liking, just IMHO
I dont know who decided to use words like "heroic" and "epic" in MMORPGs, but it dont fit the definition of the words at all. The majority of the games is linear, with time, money or hacks as the deciding factor for who the "best" players are. And even then, the characters are rarely unique in any way.
The definition of someone "heroic" / "epic":
"A person of distinguished courage or ability, of legendary or mythical proportions"
Most games are about as epic as a trip to McDonalds.
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
Comments
love to have a deformed muscles?...that just looks gross tbh.
id rather be lean and have a defined form that looks good
http://acominos.evony.com <- if your bored at work
I rather prefer humility overall. But will list achievements like anyone else will if the situation calls for it.
As to heroic the only times I feel "heroic, which to me is the entirely wrong term", are when I manage to do something solo or in a very small group that people say I/we shouldn't be able to do. Even then I rarely feel the need to brag about it to anyone. It is a virtual environment, a game that each of us has to make our own way in and decide what makes us feel happy for having spent time in it.
ie, to me there is no "heroism", there is only the relative happiness and sense of accomplishment each person gets and how they go about getting it. If to you it requires a group and raiding for 12 hours a day that is fine. If it requires nothing more than gaining a level every few days and slowly making your way through all the content of a game, also fine. Yes I am almost always unimpressed with anything anyone does anywhere in an MMO. If you want to see true heroism or be a real hero then it requires doing something in reality for the good of others.
Hero? No.
Cog in a gigantic cash register? Yes.
love to have a deformed muscles?...that just looks gross tbh.
id rather be lean and have a defined form that looks good
If that's gross, then I'd love to be gross. That is awesome!
And that is lean and defined. You can make out the different sections of the muscle. You have to do different types of curls to focus on each part. I want to know what he does.
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Bravo, you hit it on the head. You have a better understanding of this than the reviewier.
I've felt heroic often... but the frequency of this occurence for me has declined drastically over the passed years.
Before open beta jumping to get the edge on other players- seeking the most hardcore grind groups to blow through levels- before being the first to the end was the only thing you could openly be proud of in the gaming community- your own accomplishments meant something not only to you- but to other people as well... Now it seems there is no reason to do anything but rush to the highest level... because nothing you do on the way matters in the end... all that epic gear you sought after is worthless at cap because there is better to get much easier and everyone knows it...
No one is around to help out in places they have already been, because zones are instanced or linear... there is no reason to stay in spot A after lvl X because the most efficient exp is now spot B- and since the gear doesn't matter until the end, because achievements can be achieved at any level and because most gamers possess at least a basic grasping of logic, it is actually unefficient and wasteful to do anything else...
At one point being an explorer- knowing where things were because you took the time to seek it out was a useful and sought after thing... As a community we truly have begun our own demise... we are too efficient- we gather data on every drop from every mob, we see that fighting mob 1 over a 2 hour period yields more exp than questing in location B for the same amount of time... If we want to know what the best item we can get for our level is... we google, or one of the many springboard sites that offer everything you want to know about the game you're playing...
For me- Heroism is dead... not because you can't go back and be that cool guy that helps out... but because you will be laughed at when you were helping some noob while your friends grinded 2 levels. But if you play only for you... turn your global/regional/trade chat off and are ok with knowing that you aren't the best and don't have a shot at it because you choose not to... then Heroism is alive and well for you.
ALL YOUR PLAYER BASE ARE BELONG TO KITTY!
I think that MMO developers are slowly learning that entering a instance with 24 other people you barley know and can hardly stand to be around is the furthest thing from feeling heroic. Smaller more tight knit groups akin to the days of Pen and Paper D&D are more likely to give that heroic feeling than having some 14 year old sociopath shout orders at you over vent. I hear it all the time from groups in WoW Man uthgarde pinnacle was a blast......but Ulduar was stab your eyes out stupid not because of the content it was dealing with all the attitudes. And Blizzard developers are hearing this too, last Blizzcon Metzen said 85% of the players were doing less than 55% of the content.
They are doing less because every member you add to the group the asshat chance increases by 20%. This is why I doubt very highly that we will see more 25 man Raids in the next WoW expansion, it will be five and ten man with heroic versions of each. SOE is even saying this is too much, DCUO will have Heroic missions for Two to Five players that scales depending on group size. The message that we are seeing is the EQ raid structure and the archaic Guild system is dead, peopel don't have time for complex scocial networks in their real lives much less their virtual ones unless they have no life at all.
It will be interesting to revisit this in two years.
Another great article. MMORPG.com are doing top job picking up stuff to write about. Thumbs up !
But about feeling heroic. There were the days when I felt heroic playing pure grinders (LOM 3 for example) on a private server with 3-5 other ppl playing. There were also the times when I felt heroic when doing Deadmines at lvl 15 (or something). That was then... this is now - and beeing heroic in a game is no longer what this is about. And why not ? you might ask ?
The main reason why MMOs are no longer heroic is based on the way that the CORE builds of the games have changed. Quests and questlines (like the early class questlines in WOW) made you feel that bit special. Getting my paladin mount in Scholomance was special - and surely felt heroic. Then BLizzard desided that class questlines are bad... and removed it. And then Blizzard desided that the lvling wasn't really anything heroic anymore. The journey through 10 more lvls was secondary and unbalanced cause it was all about BALANCE at highest lvl.
And now games are even taking it one step further - you can lvl by just killing others. Thing is... I dont find anything heroic about PVP. If someone wins in PVP - then it also means that someone lost too. So no matter how you look at it - there can be no real winner - unless you mean the connection you play through or SPEC of your PC. But that has exactly nothing to do with heros.
I have always said from from my first day of mmoRPG gaming that I play with ppl - not against ppl. It doesn't mean Im a bad player. I just dont see the purpose of beating up ppl in a game. - I rather talk with them. Laughing at them when they are dead on the ground gives me no pleasure. So - my version of heros are those that work together - just like the OP suggested. And after years of totally pointless raiding - I still feel that way. But in a slighty diffrent way.
So... here is the thing.. MMOs today have nothing to do with RPG. Games like WOW today are just about compettition of this and that and you can aparently only feel heroic if you kill this or that before some other did it . Or won this many Arena matches while exactly same amount of players lost the same amount of matches. And your character - your class - your progress - your journey through the game.... thats worth nothing.
The current heros of MMOs are nobodies that deticate(destroy) their lifes playing these games. PPL like KUNGEN are the heros ... acording to BLizzard and their major leage gaming promotions. Its the person behind the character that gets the publicity - not the character. And thats why MMOs are no longer about RPG. And to me - thats when the heroic part fades off.
As soon as MMO games will be able to go back to the journey instead of beeing about the end - then we can go back talking about heros. It has nothing to do about who gets to the end first... thats the biggest lowlife on your server most likely. His character is the hero... and thats why he plays.
Its all about RPG. Games are about having fun, forgetting the daily, stressfull real life that most NORMAL ppl (including kids) go through every day. Its not about beeing BETTER than others that play with or against you. Its about beeing a hero WITH THEM.
Having wings and be able to fly (in AION) should be special to everyone. It doesn't matter who can fly first - or highest - or longest. Good LONG questlines with a quality cutshenes (yes, even in an MMO) can't hurt. Sadly the good old days of class quests seems to be over... The reason for it tho ... is because the DEVELOPERS only focused on the end content. NOT the journey.
Anyway - that was my heroic rant for today. Back to babysitting my 2 year old ! Hes questing in the bathrom atm !
the problem isn't that we haven't really been given the opportunity to feel like heroes it's that the devs assume everyone wants to be a hero (and if everyone is a hero then i sort of defeats the purpose of heroes...). I know plenty of people who don't mind being that random (insert class and race here) that lives in the forest and hunts bears all day. Granted i also know people who truely do want to be a hero, but it's not eveyone i meet. These MMO's seem to cater to the later far too much and focus too much on one players story rather than the games story (how many times have we heard calls for changing worlds based on our actions?).
If i really wanted to feel like a hero then i would play one of the many single player games who trump MMO's in the story/immersion department. I come to play MMO's to explore and live in a persistant and different world.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I think there is more to being a hero than just what the devs give you. You have to act like a hero in the game. If I see someone who is acting like a jerk, I don't care what gear they're wearing or what skills they've leveled up. As far as I'm concerned, they're a peon living in the gutters.
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here here!
Good topic and congratz on the Little one Garrett!
Where is our heroic experience? I think it got lost when i believe alot ppl stopped rping or pretending they are somewhere else. Too many ppl tunnel vision to the next level or aquiring that sword of ganking infinity. I hate to say this but console game provide a better heroic experience because its just you vs the world and not the amount of heroes on a server.
Played : WOW, LOTRO, COH/COV, EQ2, SWG, and WAR.
Playing EVE Online and AOC.
Wtg for SW:TOR and WOD
I like the article and this mans view point, more please.
You can do some spectacular things in WoW, but in all the games I've played there was nothing like old school EQ. Before there was a solid understanding if things like hate lists, poll times, hell, we were all wearing fine steel vendor armor, our public raiding server reached Bzzazzt island in Sky.. before Kunark. We cleared Pegasus island when the Shimmering Meteors were all mistakenly given boss abilities including death touch. It wasn't about what I personally had done, but the monumental sense of communal accomplishment. In EQ, just getting out with your current level and your gear was a challenge in some encounters, and some of my most vivid memories are elaborate corpse recovery schemes, from naked planes breaks to salvaging a semi-successful first attempt on the Chardok Queen for the server's first warrior epic.
I forgot about Vox.. ours was about the last of the original servers to kill Vox, primarily because of the public-first initiative kept the server back until around Kunark came out. When one of the community leaders finally decided it was time for her to die, we had well over 100 people, which we divided into two waves, one inside the zone and one outside the zone, and went at her for eight hours (yes, the problem was we had too many people, hah) . I bound myself in her escape corridor, and ended up losing three levels by the time, eight hours later, we'd finally lost enough people that we could take her down without half the raid going linkdead. I had screenshots of myself futily meleeing her with no color in any of my bars (which also amusingly showed how ignorant we were at the time, with our server's lead enchanter busily chain casting AE stun against unstunnable mobs)
This columnist looks like Richard Nixon.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
Very interesting read! It covers my main issues with MMOs, and one reason I stayed away from MMOs in the early days. I come from a pen and paper background myself, and the one thing which always frustrated me about MMOs is simply, you kill those 10 gnolls and the repop behind you. For the next folks. It entirely always kills my feeling of having an impact. Sure, when I play a Pen and Paper game, I know thousands of others do that too. But I dont see them. In my perception it is me and my friends only who did that. There is a story which happens to me and my group. No one else. That is what made me feel heroic. Not the loot, not the drops, no - the fact that I dont see the world repop right behind me for the next one. It is like you go to a stage wizard, and he shows you the tricks. It spoils the fun. That is for me what spoils MMOs, I can see the mechanics working, and I can see it is all just fake. It makes it difficult to feel pride about your accomplishments, when that boss mob is back 5 minutes later. At least that is my biggest issue.
I recall vividly when I heard first time of UO, when it was one of the only 2 MMOs. I let a UO gamers show it to me... and I was totally baffled why anyone would play that. Why should I want to be a TAILOR? Or a Blacksmith?? To this very day, crafting is entirely beyond me. I mean, I'd play tetris or Pacman rather than crafting. I mean... its WORK, hello? And why would I like to be an anonymous worker-nobody again, like in RL? And then people always were ganked. Killed. It was hardcore. Which is also something that escapes me. Escapism is my drive to go into a game, computer or not. I want to feel great, like a hero or warrior or adventurer, as a contrast to the average nobody I am like all of us in RL. Why should I feel like a powerless everybody again?? That is why things like hardcore gameplay, death penalities or crafting are entirely illogical to me. They all serve to reinforce this concept that I am a weak nobody. And sorry I have that all day for free already. No need to pay a MMO for that again! If I want hardcore penality experience, I go to my jobcenter and I get it all hardcore and penalities for free! (Hello fellow Germans, who know what I speak of.^^)
I think the WOW model is one of the worst way, always hanging new carrots, driving people with greed and envy... I find that too "restless" and artificial. I value MMO memories of doing some adventure with good friends. Thats why I dont understand that soloism trend at all. Whats it worth doing it all alone? For me it is the shared experience, the adventure you can talk with you friends year later "hey, you still recall when we hunted those rare boars on Tatooine for days?", and it brings a smile on all your friend's faces. I bring this SWG memory for a reason. The planets were so big, you rarely saw too many other players really at the exact same thing. It made the illusion that your team made something genuine easier. In crowded, densly populated worlds that is much more difficult, at least without heavy instancing, which I dont like either. LOTRO book quests were also great, and AoC Tortage, even tho the latter was way to solo-oriented. LOTRO book and the cutscene / event character of the highlights of the stories in LOTRO are a good way, and looking at SWTOR I hope that is the future trend of MMOs, bringing finally this feeling you really did something special, and not farm 78687 mobs of X for the gear to kill mob Z asf.
One way you can make people more special is class specific experiences. I recall when I was in that Ranger training camp in Vanguard, where I got some special skills at the end of the quest-line, which was only for Rangers, that was cool. Or in my brief days in WOW, when my Druid got access to the Druid valley, where at that time only Druids could enter. I felt so special! I liked that, and it didnt matter that other Druids could enter it, not but it generated a feeling of "us selected few". Or in Free Realms, when I did Medic quests, which really gave me the feeling "hey I am a doctor"; I did stuff which was only for that class in the world, and for the first time I had a really good feeling for a healer class, because it was connected to special tasks in the world only my class could do. I found that kind of special tasks for classes very interesting. Or you could think of special racial quest-lines or theme parks, like Imperial & Rebel Themepark. There are many things which have already been tried, but far too less and rarely.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yeah, mmo's make everyone a hero and the 'special' person running around saving the world blablabla thereby making everyone some bleeding copycats and nobodys. I like how AoC tell you this backstory in the beginning that you're destined to save stuff etc. All that lose its shine when you realise every other person you see is all the same. Reminds me of a joke Yathzee took on that - You're the chosen one or some shit but it all get a little less epic when you have that nimbling thought in the back of your mind that all the other players you see also is the chosen one, all dickheads who are plotting your murder, all special and all some bleeding twatmonkeys
I tend to agree...Heroes don't exists in mmo's. We're all just the same old buggers doing the same old stuff over and over again. That become quite ironic in City of Heroes. No heroes in City of Heroes..hahah
I'm logging off now...
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Grammar nazi's. This one is for you.
I've never felt more of a hero than when I've been apart of a small, very skilled PvP group in Lineage 2. Sometimes we would have to take on overwhelming odds in order to be victorious. In Lineage 2, being a hero really didn't mean saving the day, no one really cared if you killed Baium at the top of Tower of Insolence. In fact people often resented you for it, because you had something they would hope to achieve and you are standing in your way. On the way to becoming a hero you sometimes become the villain. That sometimes is how it works in these games, yes you become a hero in that people admire and look up to you, but they want to achieve what you've done and then envy and jealousy take over. You eventually become both a Hero and a Villain.
Like previously said I love being apart of a team and working together to complete a task. Whether if it's a sport like Hockey and assisting on the winning goal or if it's in an MMO where I pulled off a huge AoE combo that was the deciding factor in our PvP win. I don't play MMO's for the quests, the text or any of that. I simply play because they are the best games with the mindset of "if you and friends work together you can achieve anything". I don't play to be immersed or to feel like a guy in 16th century with a sword swinging and decapitating infidels.
Just a Hardcore PvP players take on this subject.
We were once heroes, today we are but mercenaries lost in a forest of gear updates and titles.
It was that pride in our realm that made us feel we were heroes of the realm. Otherwise what does being better (in any way) in the game matter?
The 3 realm system is essential. It stops one realm dominating the game permantly, I remember my realm in DAOC allying with another to push back the third.
To have real RvR you must have realm pride and this must come beofore guild and personnal achievment. Making the best leveling area RvR dependent and giving realms bonuses for holding areas does that. Making dungeons a realm effort helps too.
CodenameXen talked about the decline in the heroic behaviour of helping other players. Spot on, that’s dieing out as well.
I wonder how much of our MMO problems have occurred due to a reduction in the average age of those who play? What with cartoon graphics, the introduction of consoles and so on it’s a wonder anyone over 25 plays anymore.
Me I keep waiting for the day SoE unveils the practical use of the idea it patented several years ago. The idea they patented was to use ultra sonic pulses to stimulate the brain for fully in your head vr, with a reciver attached to your head to read what your brain did to that an react in turn. The basic idea if applied would be the most impressive idea ever in gaming, course that patent was aquired three years ago an after it was no news since. Until you get a living world in mmo's your not going to feel heroic. The cloest I ever felt was playing in muds and EQ back in the day, when they did GM events that effected the world. Those events took on a almost legendary aspect as "You had to be there to believe it" became a big part of it. The players that came later always had to deal with the fact they missed those moments.
With the current degrading returns in mmo's I don't see us ever having those moments again, with things like the architect in CoH. As well as many other games turning to the idea of player built content and sand box worlds you see an increase in what I call lazy gming. The gods that just build a world in a story then walk away suck, it's the ones that keep mixing it up that are fun. It's the same with devs and gms. If you build it then stop, it gets dull.
For me i feel the guild that down The Sleeper are all heroes, the level 40 player at FF also...
Just me...
RIP Orc Choppa
Ironically, very seldom do I ever feel "heroic" when working with a team, though beating an instance with a small group can occasionally feel that way. I am MUCH more likely to feel "heroic" when I accomplish something on my own.
The game that did the best job of taking me through a story and giving me a sense of accomplishment was Guild Wars, and I completed all three campaigns and the expansion, pretty much all by my badself (using henchmen/Heroes) -- only grouping in that game when a friend was online or I just felt a bit more social.
Thus, I would respectfully take issue with your statement that "the heroics in MMOs come from working as a team". It is, oddly, working in a team that is most likely to destroy any sense (for me) of feeling heroic, because (again, for me) feeling heroic is linked to immersion, and too many real-life players do their level best to speak OOC, act like spoiled brats and cretins, and destroy immersion: "We so totally owned that $%&#-er!" Yeah, right. "Heroic." NOT.
*Sigh*
I do wish more MMOs would offer players more options on how to complete content.... I would play with people for casual fun but group only with NPCs/solo/RP-ers (a rare breed) when I felt like immersion and feeling "heroic."
I never feel heroic doing the kind of hoops the game has in place for me to jump though. More often than not I feel like crap while somebody using an exploit or who bands together with a regular group freight trains over me. Then there are the guilds who have people who take advantage of players in order for them to get on the A list for grouping. Its all rather depressing.
Back in the earlier days of mmorpgs I felt more heroic because then there was a tendency for players to really be a hero helping out other players. Now days it seems its all about selfishness, not much heroics in that.
I can relate to this. I play RF Online and its 3 realm system, Accretia(cyborgs), Bellato(namely cute dwarves) and Cora(elves). I do feel like whenever I can run to low lvl areas when they are yelling "raiders in 213", as I play Accretia. I might or might not wipe out the raiders, but just the rush of running and helping my fellow racemates makes me feel a real hero!!
Another thing is when I go raiding the other races realm, I do feel like a hero when taking the fight to them, even better when there is a guild raid!!! when we get back to our hq and start counting how much kills and CP(contribution points) we got really makes the day!!
So summing up, I think feeling heroic in a game is just a matter of personal liking, just IMHO
I dont know who decided to use words like "heroic" and "epic" in MMORPGs, but it dont fit the definition of the words at all. The majority of the games is linear, with time, money or hacks as the deciding factor for who the "best" players are. And even then, the characters are rarely unique in any way.
The definition of someone "heroic" / "epic":
"A person of distinguished courage or ability, of legendary or mythical proportions"
Most games are about as epic as a trip to McDonalds.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin