What I don't understand is why companies bitch so much about the hassle and expense of official RP servers, but they don't bother to monetize them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people will pay a higher monthly fee for premium service, and the extra revenue can pay for the additional csr staff, live event staff, or whatever. Hell, for an RP server like Sanya describes at the end of the article, I'd pay $50.00 a month, and I'm not alone.
The bean counters and executives need to wake up. They're all masturbating over their new cash shops, yet no one sees similar potential for tailored ruleset servers.
I'd be willing to pay extra to play on a server that meets the ruleset you mentioned Sanya, even if I don't roleplay that much. I do agree that most of the companies do not enforce the few rp rules they do have on rp type servers.
Although the rp server I play on Wow seems to be half decent. Dumb names seem to be removed if a ticket is made, players that harrass the roleplayers seem to be quickly silenced. Better than most.
You made a very good point though, this is something that the developers need to address early in the design phase or just rule out rp servers and be prepared to defend that decision from the suits. You can't add rules like you propose late in the design phase.
Oh and to all those posts above, name control is a must, if you don't have someone reviewing them, you at must at least have someone who reviews and acts on complaints about names. Nothing worse than a dumb name to ruin any immersion and no ignore is not a substitute for this either.
BTW really good article. As we can see from all the posts you have disagreement across the board, pretty much proves your point what a morass this subject is.
While this was certainly a better article with Rping at it's heart then the piece of drivel that was "The Myth of RP Servers", I still feel that the general point the article reaches, and some of the things it suggests should be changed, is still largely off base.
First off, the changes you present are rather horrendous. Most of them, if I'm projecting this correctly, would turn a thriving RP community into an elitist, highly moderated "no fun zone." You seem to be under the impression that an RP server, or RPing in general, requires a shit ton of strict rules and allowances to work.
Even your example of 50 people trying to play hide and go seek and win a prize is extremely off. Generally speaking the "best" roleplay groups are no more then 10-20 people, and 20 is really pushing it. This is due to the fact that more then 20 people talking at once becomes to chaotic for even the fastest readers/typists, but this is straying somewhat from my main point.
You guys aren't simply doing enough research when it comes to these RP pieces.
All that is required for "good" rp to take place in any game is another RPer. That's it. 99% of all RP actions, stories, plot twists, whatever, are conveyed through in-game text between person-to-person. Sure, some like to get more extravagant, but I've always found, the more props, the more little fancy doodads you like to mix in, the more the actual quality of the writing begins to diminish.
For example: The best, hands down, roleplaying you can ever encounter is on dedicated message boards that are structured around either a central IP, or some type of familiar cannon. There are no doo-dads. It's all conveyed through text.
This is mainly why, as many people have mentioned, SWG was such a perfect RPing environment at one time. You could do so much to alter how your character spoke and how text was conveyed, that it was nearly endless.
The only "tool" any game really needs to foster roleplaying is the /ignore functionality. No other community moderation controls are needed for someone who really loves the craft of writing, which is who the true RPers really are.
To me an RP server means I can play a female character without someone asking the tiresome, "Are you a girl in real life?" Unfortunately that is not the case all to often though, as horniness will trump geekiness 9 times out of 10.
I will usually play on an RP server because usually it seems as though the people on them tend to be using their imagination a bit more. It also seems to attract an older or more mature crowd.
The people who responded and said they thought the article was good fell into a trap and helped the author drive roleplaying out of the genre. All the non-roleplayers reading this thread are going to look at the points made and the list of RP requirements, see the responses, and say... "Yup, that is way too much work for what it is worth."
I think OddJobXL did a pretty good job on addressing the staff issues. As far as I'm concerned the chat stuff IS trivial, and I've seen them work in some of the better F2P games, and I think those make for better examples because we get far worse (immature etc) players compared to pay games.
Roleplaying and what’s needed for a RP server is very subjective. But I don’t think what she had as the problem list or what is needed for a RP is quite correct.
You cannot do Proper tabletop RP in a MMORPG, but you can do your best given the tools at hand. The 10% figure was way out, that’s more like the percentage who are really dedicated. About another 20% like to do some roleplaying, just not as consistently. What about Never Winter Nights, the author talks as if no MMO has ever been released with good in game development tools?
The dilution of the RP server by people seeking a haven from the teenies is a problem. But only if they have no intention of roleplaying. If they are very casual roleplayers that’s fine, we can tempt them to the roleplaying side. ( ) But I have seen RP servers where so many have turned up with no intention of roleplaying that the server dies for roleplayers. If you have no intention of roleplaying please don’t join a RP server, would you join a PvP server with no intention to do PvP?
All you need for a RP server is an enforced naming policy and players being told they are meant to RP, that’s all! Yes the box of chocolates and GM run events would be nice but are not a must. So you see I don’t think having a roleplay server is such a big deal, it’s the players that make it a RP server, give us a naming policy and we are up and running.
RP servers have worked, are working well right now and with a little less negative spin on our pundits side will sail on into the future.
i wont bother trying to argue for or against the list of features the OP thinks should be required for a rp server.
What i will say is that a list like that, with that level of thought and MAINTAINED EFFORT is required to make an mmo actually promote RP.
if any company actually did this..... no matter the actual setting they would pull in a vast majority of the rp'ers. who have been waiting for something like this to come along so they can stop playing NwN and get some actual graphics (sorry second life)
Next time y'all try to do a good cop bad cop article.... the bad cop should be a bit less retarded, and a tad more informed.
By developer do you mean programmer? Because I see nothing technically difficult in those objectives, over half of them are trivial chat addons. Hell, many of them are already in existing MMORPGs, scattered here and there. Give us a reason, what exactly don't you like instead of some vague "unachievable" crap. The only thing I haven't seen is the dedicated staff part, because this is where most companies don't allocate resources. Then you wonder why the community turns to shit. That's because all the good players leave when they see they aren't getting any help, so you're left with the constant trickling in and out of the casuals and the griefers, which leads to the inevitable spiral of fail and closing of doors a year later.
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry at the responses to this article. The author succeeded in placing the guilt by association on the entire roleplaying spectrum, simply because a few stick-in-the-mud roleperformers can't take it when someone interrupts their wedding.
I am sure that some of the items on the list are achievable and already existent in some MMO somewhere. The biggies, however, were slipped into the list in disguise because the author knew that many self-important RPers would take no objection to them:
1) Dedicated event team: Huh? Why? As soon as one minority gets dev attention, they will all want dev attention. The object is not to make more work for yourself as a developer, it's to make less. Roleplaying does that by entertaining itself, simply through application of game tools. You make the tools for the sandbox, the roleplayers will play.
Why? Because they can crank out multitudes of various events in game, giving NPC cities "life" by holding festivals and carnivals, holding criminal trials of NPC (heck, even PC) characters, in general doing "daily life" events that would be "normally happening" in civilized settings of peoples. You can sit there and take it in a narrow focused, "doing the event for small groups of people" way, but you are only displaying a limited ability of thought/imagination. Nothing wrong with having this on top of the sandbox tools.
2) Item creation: Huh? Why? Roleplayers should consider themselves a part of the game world and should use the same economy and crafting system that everyone else uses. If you need a hundred special hats, you should craft them - assuming the game is sandboxy enough for that to occur.
Item creation falls in line with sandbox tools. The whole idea of giving players the ability to put their imaginations/roleplaying to work through the ability to create the appropriate props to facilitate it. Yes, a really in-depth, "wide view" crafting system chock full of non-combat aiding craftables would accomplish this too. The trouble is, outside of SWG and maybe ATITD, no game has come near this point.
3) Community specialist approval on all names: No, completely unnecessary. In a game with a significant roleplaying population, you just created several full-time positions for no real reason at all. The better way is to simply not have names dangling in mid-air, or to make it so that /ignore makes someone completely invisible.
No, it's not. Players have proven time and again (and I know, I play on RP servers and I see them running around) that they are "creative enough" to come up with spellings and phrases to bypass the standard naming filter. Names should be names, for one. Not phrases or little cutesy plays on words (on an RP server that is). Even when games provide cultural information about the character races and give that races naming conventions, you still are guaranteed to see people who don't follow them. So no, if a company is willing to provide the staff to monitor this, and charge a few dollars more for characters on that server, then by all means it should be done. They make their money, their players are happy and players like you who disagree with it can play on a regular non-RP server. Win win.
The people who responded and said they thought the article was good fell into a trap and helped the author drive roleplaying out of the genre. All the non-roleplayers reading this thread are going to look at the points made and the list of RP requirements, see the responses, and say... "Yup, that is way too much work for what it is worth."
No. Most people who agreed and have been playing MMOs for 5+ years and like the idea of RP servers have been requesting options like these for years and years. and as far as it being too much effort for what it is worth, the happiness of as many customers as you can achieve is very much worth the effort around 5 event team members and 2 community name specialist to implement this.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Another interesting read from you and while there are some areas i disagree with, your writing style puts across your points in a decent manner
Having played a few MMOs on RP servers, some policed heavily some not, I do agree having a team of CS who understand the ruleset and likely minds of players on these servers is a good thing, not having a OOC channel at all isnt such a important thing
While dev run live events are great (and pretty rare) i guess this comes down to how many servers are running, if its 2 or 3 sure live events are possible and really a needed thing in many games both on the RP and normal servers, if the game is a "success"/running many servers i can sort of understand how dev live events are going to be harder to achieve without some sort of backlash from the community as a whole - player run events on the other hand should be more supported, there are some great minds out there for fun,interesting, deep etc etc storys/games which giving the players the right tools would be a huge benefit to the game
The players can and often do take pride in the RP servers, so having a team of CS checking all player/guild names really is not needed, let the players find the rule breaking names and report them surely this would be a much easier system
I also think a player volunteer CS program is under estimated by most of the dev companies, while that doesnt appeal to me, in those games who have it, it seems to be a very good way of bolstering the CS/storytelling etc in a semi offiicial way, which works very well
I wont nit pick at the article anymore but thanks for your views and some insider information from a few company "big wigs"
I'm going to stray a bit from the articles - Yes gaming itself is an escape as is RP, but.....
If I were to apply my focus to how much gear I can get or how fast can I buff my stats to kill the next guy then what's the point? I could do that at home on a console. After watching many gamestyles and players the RP gamers actually tend to be the most mentally stable group unlike the players who are all about the gear and PVP. Yes, RP is about gear to the extent of "If I were this character what would he be wearing, carrying, doing". Can't tell you how many times I've seen "hardcore gamers" (loose term) fly into a rage for no reason or get discouraged because they didn't get immediate gratification. From experience that type of gamer typically has no drive in life itself and seeks an easy way to get ahead without having to do anything. You could assume teenager, but I've seen grown men who definitely fit this category living in mom's basement or the faux bachelor pad crawling with cockroaches. Physical fitness is out of the question and their attitudes are miserable.
After reading both articles in the end isn't it RP really about immersion in something we can't truly experience in this reality? Something any gamer is really doing when they sit down at a system or console.
The RP players I've met aren't all "care bears". Some in fact experience the same rage issues as hardcore gamers, but they at least are expressing the anger in a healthy way through a character in a fantasy world (RP is used succesfully in the psychiatry field). They experience the same excitement in character building as other gamers, but it's more a matter of satisfaction in seeing this new beings life fulfilled rather than gratification and let's move on to the next perk. Yes RP servers are great because the naming is more restrictive, the channels are less cluttered, if you're not rp'ing you can beremoved from most servers on excessive reports and no not everyone will approach you and go all "care bear". In fact it takes a while of popping up on some servers before anyone does notice you.
Both articles did what they were supposed to and evoked an emotional reaction from many. Do RP servers require more work and maintenance or don't they? I feel they do and some of you expressed valid points on other servers where they don't. I feel it helps as a solid foundation for fledgling RP servers to do such though to attract the type of player on that server. I also believe RP players are the most financially beneficial in the long run for a company. They tend to have such level of involvement with a character that they'll keep returning years later to check in on them like an old friend (or mental baggage deposit depending upon your state of mind). They tend to be dedicated gamers rather than flitting off to the next FPS for achievements. Someone should do an article though on how these things play out internationally. A number of games (LOTRO,Conan,Witcher,etc) that have a strong history and RP focus tend to do extremely well overseas and in the UK where they may see marginal success in the US. Is it just that we're shallow minded Americans in the end and lack the maturity and emotional intelligence for quality gaming?
Why? Because they can crank out multitudes of various events in game, giving NPC cities "life" by holding festivals and carnivals, holding criminal trials of NPC (heck, even PC) characters, in general doing "daily life" events that would be "normally happening" in civilized settings of peoples. You can sit there and take it in a narrow focused, "doing the event for small groups of people" way, but you are only displaying a limited ability of thought/imagination. Nothing wrong with having this on top of the sandbox tools. As you pointed out, these are simply game events that make the setting more real. If a company wants to go to the expense of an event team to increase the verisimilitude of their game, that is somewhat different than events aimed purely at groups of dedicated roleplayers. While certainly dedicated roleplayers would benefit from the increased verisimilitude, saying that such would be a requisite for their gameplay is going way too far, and the events would really be more of an enticement for the rest of the playerbase to become more dedicated to realism and roleplay. Some of these events could be done via structured coding that is randomly spawned, without the need for a human event controller. In this thread, we're talking about the things that are manditory for roleplay to be worthwhile. Remember? Item creation falls in line with sandbox tools. The whole idea of giving players the ability to put their imaginations/roleplaying to work through the ability to create the appropriate props to facilitate it. Yes, a really in-depth, "wide view" crafting system chock full of non-combat aiding craftables would accomplish this too. The trouble is, outside of SWG and maybe ATITD, no game has come near this point. Again, is this manditory? No, it's not. Players have proven time and again (and I know, I play on RP servers and I see them running around) that they are "creative enough" to come up with spellings and phrases to bypass the standard naming filter. Names should be names, for one. Not phrases or little cutesy plays on words (on an RP server that is). Even when games provide cultural information about the character races and give that races naming conventions, you still are guaranteed to see people who don't follow them. So no, if a company is willing to provide the staff to monitor this, and charge a few dollars more for characters on that server, then by all means it should be done. They make their money, their players are happy and players like you who disagree with it can play on a regular non-RP server. Win win. A roleplayer dedicated to realism in their stories would ask why it's even necessary to have nametags. In the real world we go by appearance, people do not wear nametags everywhere they go. In the 3D graphical, highly customizable worlds of modern MMOs it seems to me that we have reached the stage where nametags should be dropped alltogether and you should have to ask someone their name in order to get it. IMO, you are asking for something here that actually detracts from roleplay, and is most certainly not a requirement. No. Most people who agreed and have been playing MMOs for 5+ years and like the idea of RP servers have been requesting options like these for years and years. and as far as it being too much effort for what it is worth, the happiness of as many customers as you can achieve is very much worth the effort around 5 event team members and 2 community name specialist to implement this.
Not everyone has agreed to these requirements in this thread. I've been playing online roleplaying games for almost 20 years, and I don't agree. If you and others who have agreed feel that these items are actually requirements for a successful roleplay experience, then know that I and a few others stand apart.
Just as a general response to a lot of posts in this thread, I think many roleplayers here don't really understand the current nature of MMOs anymore. They are acting like wet, uncomfortable puppy dogs that have been kicked out into the rain temporarily and are making small noises so that their masters will realize it and let them back in.
In case anyone hasn't noticed, MMOs are big business. The design team and art budgets are astronomical. Subscribers can range into the hundreds of thousands of people, and even that is considered a failure.
This web site is not about little Mom and Pop roleplaying shops. It's about the focus of a massive industry that could get even larger, if it doesn't castrate itself. I think the future is roleplay and realism. Others think it is commercialism and pecking orders. The truth is that without the realism and roleplay, the commercialism and pecking orders simply immitate a life that most of us already know and dislike.
Personally i think that any MMORPG that has a significant ammount of shards/servers absolutly needs a dedicated roleplaying server, otherwise finding other people to roleplay with becomes pretty much impossible. And roleplaying is really not a solo activity.
And no you don't need everything on that list, not even close. You need a server that has "Roleplay" in the name, and you need GMs that will intervene if anyone actively harasses roleplayers. As long as the roleplaying community is large enough, it will happen on it's own.
Yes people who can't stand a word of OOC on any channel, or who will have a seizure if they see IPWNYou hunting boars in the distance, will never be satisfied, but there's plenty of people who realise that just as MMO combat is not D&D dice combat, MMO roleplay is not the same as D&D roleplay, you need to chill a bit and have fun pretending to be your character, and not expect other people to play along with your scripts.
The only game that can cater to Roleplaying fans are games exactly like NWN and NWN2. This is the only game at retail that really caters toward Roleplayers. Why exactly?
Because player made worlds using the building tools NWN offers allows people to create and really change the world. Want to start a band of rebels that take down the militia the main city? That is all possible in player made worlds who can change things at will.
So I will agree, That there really is no sense in MMORPG's having Roleplaying servers, especially since they don't enforce roleplay. Roleplaying should be an actual community within the server itself, not a whole seperate server that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
As you pointed out, these are simply game events that make the setting more real. If a company wants to go to the expense of an event team to increase the verisimilitude of their game, that is somewhat different than events aimed purely at groups of dedicated roleplayers. While certainly dedicated roleplayers would benefit from the increased verisimilitude, saying that such would be a requisite for their gameplay is going way too far, and the events would really be more of an enticement for the rest of the playerbase to become more dedicated to realism and roleplay. Some of these events could be done via structured coding that is randomly spawned, without the need for a human event controller. In this thread, we're talking about the things that are manditory for roleplay to be worthwhile. Remember? Again, you continue to think from the frame of view of aiming at small groups of "dedicated roleplayers" and I'm talking from the point of "services" available to any roleplayer on a RP server. I'm not concerned about other servers (as adding such functions to all Regular PvE and PvP flagged servers would be pointless. Players there for the most part don't look for those extras and just want to "play a game". And again, I don't think you can list anywhere in this column where I stated Sanya's list was manditory for anyone. I stated that it is a doable list (which it is) and that such a list of options would entice me to spend more for a monthly subscription than the standard $15. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who would do so, which was proven by others in this thread. I understand you may be content with structured coding, but I and others think it's time for companies to begin implementing more human generated dynamic content. Human company paid employees who go over story arcs with the writing team and the take on roles as key players in the game world and help drive the story.
Again, is this manditory? For you, no. For others it is something that is desired as we are just plain tired of riding rails from quest hub to quest hub doing the same kill quests ad infinum. MMOs for the most part are hack-n-slash, tear things down over and over. Paying more attention to the building/creation things (and no, I'm not talking your typical crafting of items that aid in combat), and more positive, non-destructive cooperative gameplay mechanics and systems is sorely missed in this genre. Is this manditory? No, not in every game. But as it stands, it isn't in any game in a cohesive and broad manner. Worlds should be made like this to offer more options and if some don't want to participate in them, then they have the current crop of games to fall to for play.
A roleplayer dedicated to realism in their stories would ask why it's even necessary to have nametags. In the real world we go by appearance, people do not wear nametags everywhere they go. In the 3D graphical, highly customizable worlds of modern MMOs it seems to me that we have reached the stage where nametags should be dropped alltogether and you should have to ask someone their name in order to get it. IMO, you are asking for something here that actually detracts from roleplay, and is most certainly not a requirement. Nametags...if a game is going to use them, then I stick by what I have said above. I'm not against a game doing away with the tags above player's characters. It would be nice to be able to click a button which allows a player you have targeted to click on you moving forward and have a pop-up that displays you name, sure. Of a practical nature, however, companies would need to incorporate valid methods to identify players for harrassment reports and TOS violation reports, etc. Names are an easy way to do it currently. If they continue to be something that you assign at generation and something that can be displayed, then on an RP server that has naming convention rules, it needs to be enforced. And again, the server isn't intelligent enough to see the little cutesy plays on words/phrases players try to use. Only another human being can and if a company is offering the naming convention feature, then it should make good on that promise/offer' implementation.
Not everyone has agreed to these requirements in this thread. I've been playing online roleplaying games for almost 20 years, and I don't agree. If you and others who have agreed feel that these items are actually requirements for a successful roleplay experience, then know that I and a few others stand apart. I doubt you will find anything on this earth that everyone will agree on. I've never had an expectation to have everyone agree with my viewpoint, lol! That's absurd. What I have said, though you have interpretted in your own way, is that the items offered in Sanya's list are for me (and it seems others) "terms" for a roleplay server that I would indeed like to see in play. That list generates in me a feeling of the creation of an environment in which I would like to game/RP in. I never said anyone else had to agree with me or that this is the only way to do it. I just stated that I liked it. Pure and simple. As I've said before, in my view RP servers on just about every game have been unsupported game mechanic-wise and live team wise. Sanya's list bolsters that support (giving more tools for RPers to implement the events they imagine as well as having a live team to drive the storyline through in character interaction) and adding 5 event team members and 2 community team members per RP server (and most games only have 1-2 RP servers as is) is not going to "break the bank" of the company. Especially if they are charging more/month for access to those servers.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Roleplay in MMOs has nothing to do with all that bullshit you think is required. RP has functioned without it in the past - The key is a game based on freedom of choice and interaction. If a game is on rails then there's no significant roleplaying to be had.
"Customizable faction and resource objectives run the risk of increasing complexity."
Oh noes, heaven forbid that the players be required to think!
...and adding 5 event team members and 2 community team members per RP server (and most games only have 1-2 RP servers as is) is not going to "break the bank" of the company. Especially if they are charging more/month for access to those servers.
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
...and adding 5 event team members and 2 community team members per RP server (and most games only have 1-2 RP servers as is) is not going to "break the bank" of the company. Especially if they are charging more/month for access to those servers.
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
Well I'll chime in that before something really irritating happened I was on "The Interest Team" for Ultima Online. Each server had a dedicated volunteer team Seer, Elder, Troubs, Ancients (supervisors) and there were two Interest Game Masters (paid employees) that did all the back and forth between the volunteer teams and "the company".
I'm not going into why that went away to long and off topic and wasn't really related to The Interest Team regardless.
Its already been done as far as having dedicated groups on every server, that did server specific content. As well as Official Events that were the same for all servers (run by IGM's with help from Volunteers).
As to the topic. You know what the biggest problem with RP servers is? They magnify the problem that pisses me off the most with MMO's. You have this wonderful ToS/Eula thing that you agree to... and its like a contract. Yet its a one sided contract... If they choose to enforce it then you might get a ban. Yet they don't usually enforce it.
RP servers have higher petition rates because people want the ToS/Eula enforced. I know its an amazing concept and all.
Roleplayers are NOT 10% of the gaming population (that's pvp actually). Roleplayers who actually ask for a dedicated RP server may make up 10% of the RP Community. We never had "role play" servers in UO and there was more role-play going on in UO than I've ever seen on a "rp server".
Then again that's just me and my experience. I haven't worked for a company in that industry since late 2005 when I started my current company... so the numbers may have changed.
UO had a great rp community. I was a counselor and I had some good friends who were seers. They managed to put on some truely unique events. Unfortunately a few had to ruin it for the many because of labor dept. rules.
...and adding 5 event team members and 2 community team members per RP server (and most games only have 1-2 RP servers as is) is not going to "break the bank" of the company. Especially if they are charging more/month for access to those servers.
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
Ahh, so it would seem. Well, what's a forum without some wavelength crossing, eh?
As to those 7 people and whether they could handle it, I see no reason why not. It's not like those 5-10K players are going to be online at the same time...ever. And there's always those people being the brain children behind the events and pulling other devs in that are available to aid/play storyline figures as needed. And I don't think I'll jump into the salary/benefits argument. Unless you are in the relative position in a company there is no way to know what that would cost. What I do know is that other companies in other service industries add "premium services" for a few dollars more and allocate staff members in a greater amount than 7-10 and manage ok. I'm sure an MMO company would as well.
As far as the event problems you mention, they aren't. They are convienent counter points on which to draw from for the purposes of an argument, sure. The only thing involved here is a little more work and effort on the part of a service provider to provide another level of service. None of the challenges listed are worthy of a "cold fusion-esque" mantel as some here try to make them out to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Enjoyed the article! Wow look at the responses! Wonderful job Sanya.
I would consider myself a casual roleplayer. (SWG was a blast!). I love the depth that it can potentially add to a game.
At times it can be more than a little annoying. (try explaining IM's in a role play setting). Having a high level character is more challenging due to the fact that these people do not always place a high emphasis on learning game mechanics. Oh and lets not forget the oversexed, gender ambiguious, harlet that is always trying to flirt with you when all you want to do is get a guild that can RP and has some aspiration of raiding.
That out of the way. There are times when I actually prefer standing at the local tavern engaging in improv to the nearest dungeon crawl. I agree with what many of you are saying about establishing ground rules for social enteractions. How many low level characters have come up to you as a role player claiming some sort of royalty and demanding subjectation?
"Pardon me M'Lord, but can we please set some peramiters for our iambic pentameter?" Rathbone.
But hey, sometimes you can even have some fun messing with those individuals.
I must say I relly enjoyed article. I am so called "Casual RP Player" and I have only 2 people on my ignore liste, and both of them are Ninja Looters *winks*
Anyhoo, I just dont get one thing... Why people who dont want RP choise RP servers... its like Hey I dnon't like Meat but I'l order Hamburger in McDonald... You dont like PvP? You dont pick PvP servers. You dont like RP? Why you pick RP server?
Most games in our time got servers marked as RP - Maybe people dont know what RP means, and think its some kind of cookie?
Originally posted by Horusek Anyhoo, I just dont get one thing... Why people who dont want RP choise RP servers... its like Hey I dnon't like Meat but I'l order Hamburger in McDonald... You dont like PvP? You dont pick PvP servers. You dont like RP? Why you pick RP server?
I'll try to answer this... I don't really RP but I love the RP community, I find that most of the community is really friendly compared to a normal server and a pvp server usually has a horrible community. I don't usually talk to anyone while I play MMOs anyway though so no one would know that I wasn't an RPer so I guess 'the silent one' is my role =D. I also like RP servers because the audience has a more mature persona and are very helpful.
It is also very rare that I see people being utterly rotten to one another in general world channels, the community conversations do not look like I am reading comments on a youtube video (those are always negative)
So to all you RPers out there I sincerly thank you for helping better the experience found in the MMO world ^^;
Comments
What I don't understand is why companies bitch so much about the hassle and expense of official RP servers, but they don't bother to monetize them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some people will pay a higher monthly fee for premium service, and the extra revenue can pay for the additional csr staff, live event staff, or whatever. Hell, for an RP server like Sanya describes at the end of the article, I'd pay $50.00 a month, and I'm not alone.
The bean counters and executives need to wake up. They're all masturbating over their new cash shops, yet no one sees similar potential for tailored ruleset servers.
Dumb.
QFT. The best roleplay I've ever seen is in LARP (live-action roleplay) simulators in SecondLife.
Most games out today are MMOGs, not MMORPGs. They should be ashamed of themselves for even suggesting they are roleplaying games.
I'd be willing to pay extra to play on a server that meets the ruleset you mentioned Sanya, even if I don't roleplay that much. I do agree that most of the companies do not enforce the few rp rules they do have on rp type servers.
Although the rp server I play on Wow seems to be half decent. Dumb names seem to be removed if a ticket is made, players that harrass the roleplayers seem to be quickly silenced. Better than most.
You made a very good point though, this is something that the developers need to address early in the design phase or just rule out rp servers and be prepared to defend that decision from the suits. You can't add rules like you propose late in the design phase.
Oh and to all those posts above, name control is a must, if you don't have someone reviewing them, you at must at least have someone who reviews and acts on complaints about names. Nothing worse than a dumb name to ruin any immersion and no ignore is not a substitute for this either.
BTW really good article. As we can see from all the posts you have disagreement across the board, pretty much proves your point what a morass this subject is.
While this was certainly a better article with Rping at it's heart then the piece of drivel that was "The Myth of RP Servers", I still feel that the general point the article reaches, and some of the things it suggests should be changed, is still largely off base.
First off, the changes you present are rather horrendous. Most of them, if I'm projecting this correctly, would turn a thriving RP community into an elitist, highly moderated "no fun zone." You seem to be under the impression that an RP server, or RPing in general, requires a shit ton of strict rules and allowances to work.
Even your example of 50 people trying to play hide and go seek and win a prize is extremely off. Generally speaking the "best" roleplay groups are no more then 10-20 people, and 20 is really pushing it. This is due to the fact that more then 20 people talking at once becomes to chaotic for even the fastest readers/typists, but this is straying somewhat from my main point.
You guys aren't simply doing enough research when it comes to these RP pieces.
All that is required for "good" rp to take place in any game is another RPer. That's it. 99% of all RP actions, stories, plot twists, whatever, are conveyed through in-game text between person-to-person. Sure, some like to get more extravagant, but I've always found, the more props, the more little fancy doodads you like to mix in, the more the actual quality of the writing begins to diminish.
For example: The best, hands down, roleplaying you can ever encounter is on dedicated message boards that are structured around either a central IP, or some type of familiar cannon. There are no doo-dads. It's all conveyed through text.
This is mainly why, as many people have mentioned, SWG was such a perfect RPing environment at one time. You could do so much to alter how your character spoke and how text was conveyed, that it was nearly endless.
The only "tool" any game really needs to foster roleplaying is the /ignore functionality. No other community moderation controls are needed for someone who really loves the craft of writing, which is who the true RPers really are.
To me an RP server means I can play a female character without someone asking the tiresome, "Are you a girl in real life?" Unfortunately that is not the case all to often though, as horniness will trump geekiness 9 times out of 10.
I will usually play on an RP server because usually it seems as though the people on them tend to be using their imagination a bit more. It also seems to attract an older or more mature crowd.
I think OddJobXL did a pretty good job on addressing the staff issues. As far as I'm concerned the chat stuff IS trivial, and I've seen them work in some of the better F2P games, and I think those make for better examples because we get far worse (immature etc) players compared to pay games.
" In Defeat, Malice; In Victory, Revenge! "
To me a role-play server means ... I'm less likely to deal with kids who act like well, kids.
I don't have to deal with people named "Imuberleet".
I don't have to deal with obnoxious chat in "region" type areas.
I can generally have more fun, meet people that have similar gaming likes, and be anoyed a little less frequent.
http://sayoc.mybrute.com
Roleplaying and what’s needed for a RP server is very subjective. But I don’t think what she had as the problem list or what is needed for a RP is quite correct.
You cannot do Proper tabletop RP in a MMORPG, but you can do your best given the tools at hand. The 10% figure was way out, that’s more like the percentage who are really dedicated. About another 20% like to do some roleplaying, just not as consistently. What about Never Winter Nights, the author talks as if no MMO has ever been released with good in game development tools?
The dilution of the RP server by people seeking a haven from the teenies is a problem. But only if they have no intention of roleplaying. If they are very casual roleplayers that’s fine, we can tempt them to the roleplaying side. (
) But I have seen RP servers where so many have turned up with no intention of roleplaying that the server dies for roleplayers. If you have no intention of roleplaying please don’t join a RP server, would you join a PvP server with no intention to do PvP?
All you need for a RP server is an enforced naming policy and players being told they are meant to RP, that’s all! Yes the box of chocolates and GM run events would be nice but are not a must. So you see I don’t think having a roleplay server is such a big deal, it’s the players that make it a RP server, give us a naming policy and we are up and running.
RP servers have worked, are working well right now and with a little less negative spin on our pundits side will sail on into the future.
i wont bother trying to argue for or against the list of features the OP thinks should be required for a rp server.
What i will say is that a list like that, with that level of thought and MAINTAINED EFFORT is required to make an mmo actually promote RP.
if any company actually did this..... no matter the actual setting they would pull in a vast majority of the rp'ers. who have been waiting for something like this to come along so they can stop playing NwN and get some actual graphics (sorry second life)
Next time y'all try to do a good cop bad cop article.... the bad cop should be a bit less retarded, and a tad more informed.
I don't know whether to laugh or to cry at the responses to this article. The author succeeded in placing the guilt by association on the entire roleplaying spectrum, simply because a few stick-in-the-mud roleperformers can't take it when someone interrupts their wedding.
I am sure that some of the items on the list are achievable and already existent in some MMO somewhere. The biggies, however, were slipped into the list in disguise because the author knew that many self-important RPers would take no objection to them:
1) Dedicated event team: Huh? Why? As soon as one minority gets dev attention, they will all want dev attention. The object is not to make more work for yourself as a developer, it's to make less. Roleplaying does that by entertaining itself, simply through application of game tools. You make the tools for the sandbox, the roleplayers will play.
Why? Because they can crank out multitudes of various events in game, giving NPC cities "life" by holding festivals and carnivals, holding criminal trials of NPC (heck, even PC) characters, in general doing "daily life" events that would be "normally happening" in civilized settings of peoples. You can sit there and take it in a narrow focused, "doing the event for small groups of people" way, but you are only displaying a limited ability of thought/imagination. Nothing wrong with having this on top of the sandbox tools.
2) Item creation: Huh? Why? Roleplayers should consider themselves a part of the game world and should use the same economy and crafting system that everyone else uses. If you need a hundred special hats, you should craft them - assuming the game is sandboxy enough for that to occur.
Item creation falls in line with sandbox tools. The whole idea of giving players the ability to put their imaginations/roleplaying to work through the ability to create the appropriate props to facilitate it. Yes, a really in-depth, "wide view" crafting system chock full of non-combat aiding craftables would accomplish this too. The trouble is, outside of SWG and maybe ATITD, no game has come near this point.
3) Community specialist approval on all names: No, completely unnecessary. In a game with a significant roleplaying population, you just created several full-time positions for no real reason at all. The better way is to simply not have names dangling in mid-air, or to make it so that /ignore makes someone completely invisible.
No, it's not. Players have proven time and again (and I know, I play on RP servers and I see them running around) that they are "creative enough" to come up with spellings and phrases to bypass the standard naming filter. Names should be names, for one. Not phrases or little cutesy plays on words (on an RP server that is). Even when games provide cultural information about the character races and give that races naming conventions, you still are guaranteed to see people who don't follow them. So no, if a company is willing to provide the staff to monitor this, and charge a few dollars more for characters on that server, then by all means it should be done. They make their money, their players are happy and players like you who disagree with it can play on a regular non-RP server. Win win.
The people who responded and said they thought the article was good fell into a trap and helped the author drive roleplaying out of the genre. All the non-roleplayers reading this thread are going to look at the points made and the list of RP requirements, see the responses, and say... "Yup, that is way too much work for what it is worth."
No. Most people who agreed and have been playing MMOs for 5+ years and like the idea of RP servers have been requesting options like these for years and years. and as far as it being too much effort for what it is worth, the happiness of as many customers as you can achieve is very much worth the effort around 5 event team members and 2 community name specialist to implement this.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Another interesting read from you and while there are some areas i disagree with, your writing style puts across your points in a decent manner
Having played a few MMOs on RP servers, some policed heavily some not, I do agree having a team of CS who understand the ruleset and likely minds of players on these servers is a good thing, not having a OOC channel at all isnt such a important thing
While dev run live events are great (and pretty rare) i guess this comes down to how many servers are running, if its 2 or 3 sure live events are possible and really a needed thing in many games both on the RP and normal servers, if the game is a "success"/running many servers i can sort of understand how dev live events are going to be harder to achieve without some sort of backlash from the community as a whole - player run events on the other hand should be more supported, there are some great minds out there for fun,interesting, deep etc etc storys/games which giving the players the right tools would be a huge benefit to the game
The players can and often do take pride in the RP servers, so having a team of CS checking all player/guild names really is not needed, let the players find the rule breaking names and report them surely this would be a much easier system
I also think a player volunteer CS program is under estimated by most of the dev companies, while that doesnt appeal to me, in those games who have it, it seems to be a very good way of bolstering the CS/storytelling etc in a semi offiicial way, which works very well
I wont nit pick at the article anymore but thanks for your views and some insider information from a few company "big wigs"
I'm going to stray a bit from the articles - Yes gaming itself is an escape as is RP, but.....
If I were to apply my focus to how much gear I can get or how fast can I buff my stats to kill the next guy then what's the point? I could do that at home on a console. After watching many gamestyles and players the RP gamers actually tend to be the most mentally stable group unlike the players who are all about the gear and PVP. Yes, RP is about gear to the extent of "If I were this character what would he be wearing, carrying, doing". Can't tell you how many times I've seen "hardcore gamers" (loose term) fly into a rage for no reason or get discouraged because they didn't get immediate gratification. From experience that type of gamer typically has no drive in life itself and seeks an easy way to get ahead without having to do anything. You could assume teenager, but I've seen grown men who definitely fit this category living in mom's basement or the faux bachelor pad crawling with cockroaches. Physical fitness is out of the question and their attitudes are miserable.
After reading both articles in the end isn't it RP really about immersion in something we can't truly experience in this reality? Something any gamer is really doing when they sit down at a system or console.
The RP players I've met aren't all "care bears". Some in fact experience the same rage issues as hardcore gamers, but they at least are expressing the anger in a healthy way through a character in a fantasy world (RP is used succesfully in the psychiatry field). They experience the same excitement in character building as other gamers, but it's more a matter of satisfaction in seeing this new beings life fulfilled rather than gratification and let's move on to the next perk. Yes RP servers are great because the naming is more restrictive, the channels are less cluttered, if you're not rp'ing you can beremoved from most servers on excessive reports and no not everyone will approach you and go all "care bear". In fact it takes a while of popping up on some servers before anyone does notice you.
Both articles did what they were supposed to and evoked an emotional reaction from many. Do RP servers require more work and maintenance or don't they? I feel they do and some of you expressed valid points on other servers where they don't. I feel it helps as a solid foundation for fledgling RP servers to do such though to attract the type of player on that server. I also believe RP players are the most financially beneficial in the long run for a company. They tend to have such level of involvement with a character that they'll keep returning years later to check in on them like an old friend (or mental baggage deposit depending upon your state of mind). They tend to be dedicated gamers rather than flitting off to the next FPS for achievements. Someone should do an article though on how these things play out internationally. A number of games (LOTRO,Conan,Witcher,etc) that have a strong history and RP focus tend to do extremely well overseas and in the UK where they may see marginal success in the US. Is it just that we're shallow minded Americans in the end and lack the maturity and emotional intelligence for quality gaming?
Just as a general response to a lot of posts in this thread, I think many roleplayers here don't really understand the current nature of MMOs anymore. They are acting like wet, uncomfortable puppy dogs that have been kicked out into the rain temporarily and are making small noises so that their masters will realize it and let them back in.
In case anyone hasn't noticed, MMOs are big business. The design team and art budgets are astronomical. Subscribers can range into the hundreds of thousands of people, and even that is considered a failure.
This web site is not about little Mom and Pop roleplaying shops. It's about the focus of a massive industry that could get even larger, if it doesn't castrate itself. I think the future is roleplay and realism. Others think it is commercialism and pecking orders. The truth is that without the realism and roleplay, the commercialism and pecking orders simply immitate a life that most of us already know and dislike.
I disagree with the article.
Personally i think that any MMORPG that has a significant ammount of shards/servers absolutly needs a dedicated roleplaying server, otherwise finding other people to roleplay with becomes pretty much impossible. And roleplaying is really not a solo activity.
And no you don't need everything on that list, not even close. You need a server that has "Roleplay" in the name, and you need GMs that will intervene if anyone actively harasses roleplayers. As long as the roleplaying community is large enough, it will happen on it's own.
Yes people who can't stand a word of OOC on any channel, or who will have a seizure if they see IPWNYou hunting boars in the distance, will never be satisfied, but there's plenty of people who realise that just as MMO combat is not D&D dice combat, MMO roleplay is not the same as D&D roleplay, you need to chill a bit and have fun pretending to be your character, and not expect other people to play along with your scripts.
The only game that can cater to Roleplaying fans are games exactly like NWN and NWN2. This is the only game at retail that really caters toward Roleplayers. Why exactly?
Because player made worlds using the building tools NWN offers allows people to create and really change the world. Want to start a band of rebels that take down the militia the main city? That is all possible in player made worlds who can change things at will.
So I will agree, That there really is no sense in MMORPG's having Roleplaying servers, especially since they don't enforce roleplay. Roleplaying should be an actual community within the server itself, not a whole seperate server that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Roleplay in MMOs has nothing to do with all that bullshit you think is required. RP has functioned without it in the past - The key is a game based on freedom of choice and interaction. If a game is on rails then there's no significant roleplaying to be had.
"Customizable faction and resource objectives run the risk of increasing complexity."
Oh noes, heaven forbid that the players be required to think!
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
Well I'll chime in that before something really irritating happened I was on "The Interest Team" for Ultima Online. Each server had a dedicated volunteer team Seer, Elder, Troubs, Ancients (supervisors) and there were two Interest Game Masters (paid employees) that did all the back and forth between the volunteer teams and "the company".
I'm not going into why that went away to long and off topic and wasn't really related to The Interest Team regardless.
Its already been done as far as having dedicated groups on every server, that did server specific content. As well as Official Events that were the same for all servers (run by IGM's with help from Volunteers).
As to the topic. You know what the biggest problem with RP servers is? They magnify the problem that pisses me off the most with MMO's. You have this wonderful ToS/Eula thing that you agree to... and its like a contract. Yet its a one sided contract... If they choose to enforce it then you might get a ban. Yet they don't usually enforce it.
RP servers have higher petition rates because people want the ToS/Eula enforced. I know its an amazing concept and all.
Roleplayers are NOT 10% of the gaming population (that's pvp actually). Roleplayers who actually ask for a dedicated RP server may make up 10% of the RP Community. We never had "role play" servers in UO and there was more role-play going on in UO than I've ever seen on a "rp server".
Then again that's just me and my experience. I haven't worked for a company in that industry since late 2005 when I started my current company... so the numbers may have changed.
UO had a great rp community. I was a counselor and I had some good friends who were seers. They managed to put on some truely unique events. Unfortunately a few had to ruin it for the many because of labor dept. rules.
I'll refrain from readdressing the rest of the post, but you might want to go back and notice that you replied to a post of mine where I was posting in reply to someone else. It has gotten us on different wavelengths.
Assuming 7 people can handle the needs of 5,000 to 10,000 people on a roleplaying server cluster, you are still looking at more than a $20/month subscription just talking gross salary and benefits.
Events also have many other problems associated with them, the most noteworthy being latency, customization to the players, participation, and additional art/engineering needed to pull them off.
Ahh, so it would seem. Well, what's a forum without some wavelength crossing, eh?
As to those 7 people and whether they could handle it, I see no reason why not. It's not like those 5-10K players are going to be online at the same time...ever. And there's always those people being the brain children behind the events and pulling other devs in that are available to aid/play storyline figures as needed. And I don't think I'll jump into the salary/benefits argument. Unless you are in the relative position in a company there is no way to know what that would cost. What I do know is that other companies in other service industries add "premium services" for a few dollars more and allocate staff members in a greater amount than 7-10 and manage ok. I'm sure an MMO company would as well.
As far as the event problems you mention, they aren't. They are convienent counter points on which to draw from for the purposes of an argument, sure. The only thing involved here is a little more work and effort on the part of a service provider to provide another level of service. None of the challenges listed are worthy of a "cold fusion-esque" mantel as some here try to make them out to be.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Enjoyed the article! Wow look at the responses! Wonderful job Sanya.
I would consider myself a casual roleplayer. (SWG was a blast!). I love the depth that it can potentially add to a game.
At times it can be more than a little annoying. (try explaining IM's in a role play setting). Having a high level character is more challenging due to the fact that these people do not always place a high emphasis on learning game mechanics. Oh and lets not forget the oversexed, gender ambiguious, harlet that is always trying to flirt with you when all you want to do is get a guild that can RP and has some aspiration of raiding.
That out of the way. There are times when I actually prefer standing at the local tavern engaging in improv to the nearest dungeon crawl. I agree with what many of you are saying about establishing ground rules for social enteractions. How many low level characters have come up to you as a role player claiming some sort of royalty and demanding subjectation?
"Pardon me M'Lord, but can we please set some peramiters for our iambic pentameter?" Rathbone.
But hey, sometimes you can even have some fun messing with those individuals.
~R~
I must say I relly enjoyed article. I am so called "Casual RP Player" and I have only 2 people on my ignore liste, and both of them are Ninja Looters *winks*
Anyhoo, I just dont get one thing... Why people who dont want RP choise RP servers... its like Hey I dnon't like Meat but I'l order Hamburger in McDonald... You dont like PvP? You dont pick PvP servers. You dont like RP? Why you pick RP server?
Most games in our time got servers marked as RP - Maybe people dont know what RP means, and think its some kind of cookie?
I'll try to answer this... I don't really RP but I love the RP community, I find that most of the community is really friendly compared to a normal server and a pvp server usually has a horrible community. I don't usually talk to anyone while I play MMOs anyway though so no one would know that I wasn't an RPer so I guess 'the silent one' is my role =D. I also like RP servers because the audience has a more mature persona and are very helpful.
It is also very rare that I see people being utterly rotten to one another in general world channels, the community conversations do not look like I am reading comments on a youtube video (those are always negative)
So to all you RPers out there I sincerly thank you for helping better the experience found in the MMO world ^^;