My first experience of regular raiding was a few months after WoW started. I had refused to join any guild but I got invited to raids by the top guild on my server because not many players were ready for raiding and I happened to be one of them.
Everything was fine until I won some loot. Soon after, I learned that some people had started some pretty nasty bitching about me behind my back. The ringleader was a fellow rogue with whom I had always been on good terms. The whole incident really opened my eyes to the ugly effect loot-greed has on people in a game based on gear progression.
I quit raiding immediately and ended up not playing WoW again for 15 months.
I used too a couple of years ago but I now lack the patience. Getting 25-40 people through a raid is an act of futility. You always have 3-4 people afk without telling the raid leader - attending kids/babies, gone for a smoke or top up the Jack Danials - 2-4 other are constantly dueling and not paying attention and 3-4 more either can't follow simple instructions or don't know how to play there class. You always get people who turn up late which means the raid start late resulting in people who need to finsih by a certain time leave early. People never brings consumables (pootions/elixirs/buff food), rangers/hunters forget arrows or bullets or they have there pet on aggressive and agro the whole dungeon. So, why don't you raid anymore?
I couldn't have said that better, before I quit WoW back in april I had a limited time schedule and i had to be off by a certain time. People always sat and screwed around, had no respect for the raid leader and to make things worse the guild leader didnt even want to schedule raids at times convenient for anyone else but the high up people in the guild, or when it was convenient for him. The whole aura of it was way to serious and it was just a huge blame one person game that got to be horrible. People starting take the game way to seriously, and weren't willing to compromise to meet the needs of anyone
Just reading some of the replies here makes me wonder what guilds/games people come from. I have lead a raid guild in every game ive played as in eq/ eq2/wow etc. I cant help but think most of the replies here are from people in mid to low tier guilds. In my opinion, I equate guilds to jobs. Sure if your in a 25k a year job washing dishes then yea, that sucks. If your in a 125k a year job working with a team and accomplishing goals then you will be more fulfilled there. Each guild and its structure is different and all have different ways to accomplish goals. You just have to find the one best suited for you. I enjoy raiding and unlike some posters here, we dont read the strats after they are posted. We write them. Theres a difference in the game between being a leader and a follower. Followers tend to get bored easily and give up. Leaders keep slogging along and in the end usually get the job done. In my experience, most people look up the farthest progressed guild on thier server and try to join it hoping for easy loots with little involvement or dedication. Those are the people that burn out quick and your always having to replace them. Dont do this and your raiding experience will be better not only for you but the guild. In closing, its up to you to get the most out of raiding. You make it fun or not.
Yeah the problem being is if you have a $125k a year job, you're not spending all of your free time raiding because you don't have a lot of free time to begin with and most of the people in the "hardcore" guilds fail so much at real life and are usually the one on the low end of the real life scale...
So win in life = fail at raids
Win in games = call Gamers anonymous because it is probably destroying your life, relationships and work.
One steps to making raids less of a damn drag would be to completely eliminate lock out timers... so it wouldn't such a friggin chore to get 6/10/25 to run an instance etc.
you totally missed the reference to a good guild being like a 125k guild. a bad guild being like a 25k job. reading comprehension isnt your strong point.
And your reference to no lifers being good at mmos is way off also. i am retired at 40. Guess what, im rich and I came from a single mother of 4 boys. Winners are winners regardless of what medium they are in be it life or an MMO. In the same light, losers are losers in everything.
I don't raid because I find it boring. It's much too long of a time commitment for a lot of the same, and encounters either are stale or get screwed up by one person. That's actually what I disliked about a lot of raiding in WoW, one person screwing up can destroy the raid. I totally understand why it should be like that but it made it less of a challenge and more of me tearing my hair out, when I'm doing what I need to be doing and someone else is dicking around and fucks up.
As far as the entire debate goes about how you can make it different I do think raids could get some better life into them. I don't know if it's really as much about the difficulty (although you can certainly make something really difficult if you want) and more about just making something entertaining enough that you'll want to go do it multiple times. I also would much prefer encounters that don't practically require you to read a strategy guide online to do them because it ends up that that is all the encounter is about. It becomes less about personal skills and more about how well do you know a fight.
In a single player game (a hard one) even if I know what a boss does that doesn't mean that it still might be difficult. Sure, in DMC4 I might know what that boss is going to do but I still need the reaction, timing, ability to pull off combos and such to do it. In Street Fighter IV against the CPU even though I know what Seth can do, I know his moves and general info about them, I still need to have the skill and quick thinking to adapt.
I actually really enjoyed doing things such as diablo and Bhaal runs in Diablo II, which could probably be seen as a less hardcore version of raiding. You get in there, fuck some shit up and kill the boss and get loot. It was pretty simple but I'll be damned if it wasn't fun.
I do think that trying to stray away from pure mathematical formulas (which I understand that in development terms is very difficult to do) but it would be nice to make it so that encounters could be challenging while not being so ... strict? I'm probably just rambling right now, but I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. It would be nice to see some more epic feeling encounters although I feel that they would have to dwell much more into action RPG elements to do so than the current way MMOs work.
It certainly would be possible to set up certain things within an action RPG setting though I think. Like make it so that the tank (or someone) has to watch out for an opening on the boss and then stab him in the eye allowing him to take damage for a bit. Really stupid and simple example but you get the idea, even though it's only possible in an action RPG oriented system.
The reasons why i do not raid are: 1. It's nothing more than a Boss fight. A stale and old game mechanic that is massively over used in RPGs both single player and mmo. In my opinion it is only used because it is easy to make and therfore cheap. 2. They are also usually made to be predictable, so once you have figured out how to do it you only need to use the same method all the rest of the times. 3. Repeat the raid ad infinitum to get all your gear and the gear for everyone else. No thanks, bored of the idea already. I play games to have fun. Now if raids where done without bosses and with a degree of randomness requiring the raid to be able to adapt to changing situations or wipe, then I may be interested. Oh and if you are wondering what senarios this would involve RamenTheif7 gave a good example of a possible senario on page 4.
Even though I am a hardcore raider, I do agree with those points. My opinion of raiding is that it's fun if the situation is unpredicatable. That can be difficult to do with scripted pve enemies in most mmorpgs, but I have heard of a few mmorpgs that had invented a way around this problem.
The Monster Hunter series (I think that's what it's called, it's a game with a complete craft-based economy and you fight dinosaurs) did have scripted pve enemies, but the would spawn randomly at random times and in random quantities. So if you were happily manslaughtering a few enemies, and thought you were invincible, well, all of a sudden a mob of 7 enemies suddenly surrounds you out of the blue, which could very well get you wasted. So the elements of pve in that series are unpredictable, and you can't simply lolligag through the whole thing, you have to watch your back to make sure the game doesn't sick you with a mob out of nowhere.
Edit Part: My raid story that Maeiliu talks about is actually located on page 2 (though it may differ with different computer screens, but it should be on either page 1,2, or 3.
500 hrs at a raid= A pair virtual magical boots that you can equip and look at and...that's about it. 500 hrs at a low paying second job=A high class hooker that will do anything you want.
Feh, for me those "500 hours" meant I made friends with the right thief-only guild, and went on many more memorable raiding adventures to kick ass and install fear inside Silkroad Online, as well as make a decent living off of thieving alone. Also noticable is that I attained alot of loot on those raids, which benefited my alchemy, thus I crafted powerful alchemic stones thanks to the extra loot I attained as my share of helping out the guild on these raids. It's too bad I never joined their guild (I already belonged to one), but I thank my lucky stars that I became great friends with them and they invited me on many of their raids.
Sigh...It's too bad Silkroad Online realized too late that a max level cap past level 80 would spell doom for the average legit non-bot using player...
I don't raid, because it's not my play style. It's too time consuming, political and must be repeated ad nauseum in order to get geared up. I'ts a cheap paradigm that was designed to waste time more than entertain and really only appeals to over achievers and masochists.
The one good thing about the industry's obsession over raiding is that it keeps me from becoming an MMO addict, since the industry is too stupid and blind to come up with an alternative.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
well, i guess if you think about it. In these WOW type games. What else can a guild do together? Without raiding, what else can 25-40 people from your guild go and do together? Would people still join guilds without raiding? If fewer people join guilds..what happens then? Would people pay 15 a month for a game that allows you to see a bunch of people, but only interact with 8 at a time? its just diablo. Nothing massive about it. A big scam to get 15 a month. maybe raiding is the illusion that holds it all together.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
4 Years of WoW, and in the end it was all that I found fun in the game...
The trouble is once you get good or get into the rotation, it never seems to be fulfilling enough for the time investment. I wish it could be login & have a ball whenever you feel like it, but to keep a guild together & raid capable, gotta have static times & schedules...unless you have a thick RL/ingame crew with you. I'm waiting for the game where raiding doesnt become part-time job, or feel like it in the least...
There is an amazing epiphany a person can have after long term raiding, working 40+ hours a week, to come home and -not- have to microwave a meal or scramble for the headset, instead I can do whatever I like...and that freedom & relaxation is better than any raiding, anyday
Get a job, friends, a significant other, an RL hobby and then you can easily answer...Its a fine experience, once in a lifetime when your young and in retrospect I feel (almost) sorry for the older folks who just can't stop.
I don't raid, because it's not my play style. It's too time consuming, political and must be repeated ad nauseum in order to get geared up. I'ts a cheap paradigm that was designed to waste time more than entertain and really only appeals to over achievers and masochists. The one good thing about the industry's obsession over raiding is that it keeps me from becoming an MMO addict, since the industry is too stupid and blind to come up with an alternative.
Ohhhh...but I liked wasting merchants with a highly coordinated team, that made raiding fun for me...
Plus, you do know that right now the industry's obsession is about hating the raiding concept, not supporting it, which is why us hardcore raiders are appearing in masses right now. Plus, can you honestly say that highly coordinated teamwork is always a drag? In my opinion, raiding which involves uncertainties (you may be up against opponents that are very tough, even for your entire group) can be alot of fun. Too many people look at the negatives of raiding and just don't see how much fun raiding can be. I'm all up for balance as well, but I don't think the raiding concept should be killed off, it does add a whole new level of fun and adventuring for me personally, as well as alot of raiders out there too.
Ohhhh...but I liked wasting merchants with a highly coordinated team, that made raiding fun for me... Plus, you do know that right now the industry's obsession is about hating the raiding concept, not supporting it, which is why us hardcore raiders are appearing in masses right now. Plus, can you honestly say that highly coordinated teamwork is always a drag? In my opinion, raiding which involves uncertainties (you may be up against opponents that are very tough, even for your entire group) can be alot of fun. Too many people look at the negatives of raiding and just don't see how much fun raiding can be. I'm all up for balance as well, but I don't think the raiding concept should be killed off, it does add a whole new level of fun and adventuring for me personally, as well as alot of raiders out there too.
I would not say that highly coordinated teamwork is a drag, but let's be honest. There are very few epic encounters in any game right now that take it. Get your tanks, get your healers, get your dps. Ok what's the trick to this mob? Ahh tanks: tank, healers: heal , rez, and rebuff , dps : kill the adds and wear down the boss.
I have never been a fan of raiding in any game i've played. why? because i don't see the point in spending hours upon hours of my life just for a slim CHANCE of getting an item that people say is THE BEST...
During my time in Lord of the Rings Online a fellow guild member got friendly with the leader of another guild, one day they were asked to fill in for one of their regulars that couldn't make it, my guildie knew what she was doing and with the promise of the loot being rolled on in some way she accepted the invite and off they went. My guild friend mentioned was at mine during this raid so i set my character afk as it was late and quiet and then watched her in the raid, after the raid i had a steaming argument with the guild leader who was leading the raid as he told an outright lie to my friend, instead of the loot being on a roll system when they had short breaks before moving on he actually looted a very rare item straight away and stated, "this is for the healer who couldn't make it today" the rest of the group may have agreed with this decision but i was far from happy as it went completely against what he said to start with. As my blood continued to boil with repeated looting of the rares purely so he could share them with his guild mates i eventually told my friend to leave the raid and let em all die. I HATE LIERS!!!!!
At the end of it all he contacted me (the GL/RL) and asked why i'd pulled my friend out of the raid (i take responcibility for my actions and decisions instead of leaving my friend to take the flak) i told him exactly why i had done it and his response was something like this "i only asked your friend to fill the open slot, all loots are for those that have raided with us before, you do so many raids and at a certain stage you recieve rewards for helping out" this really made my blood boil over as i detest the way people do that, if the group/raid changes in ANY way then the loot should be rolled on at random NOT just for those that have raided in the same group no matter how many times.
Sorry for the long text for that but it's the best way i can describe my main reason for hating raids personally..
I tip my hat to those that enjoy raiding for the fun factor though.
A long time ago i came to the conclusion that if one of the following were to change regarding raids then more people may enjoy them or we'd actually see just how many people do them purely for the loot.
A. remove the so called "best items" from raids and put them in the normal non raid aspects of games.
B. The duration it takes to complete a raid is lowered as well as lockout times decreased to match.
C. Make some other form of content for "end game" thats neither PvP or Raid orientated. (before crafting is mentioned i've only known one game provide enough enjoyment in crafting, SWG and i've played quite a few MMO's)
My apologies if you consider this a wall of text and thank you for reading it to the end.
Ohhhh...but I liked wasting merchants with a highly coordinated team, that made raiding fun for me... Plus, you do know that right now the industry's obsession is about hating the raiding concept, not supporting it, which is why us hardcore raiders are appearing in masses right now. Plus, can you honestly say that highly coordinated teamwork is always a drag? In my opinion, raiding which involves uncertainties (you may be up against opponents that are very tough, even for your entire group) can be alot of fun. Too many people look at the negatives of raiding and just don't see how much fun raiding can be. I'm all up for balance as well, but I don't think the raiding concept should be killed off, it does add a whole new level of fun and adventuring for me personally, as well as alot of raiders out there too.
I would not say that highly coordinated teamwork is a drag, but let's be honest. There are very few epic encounters in any game right now that take it. Get your tanks, get your healers, get your dps. Ok what's the trick to this mob? Ahh tanks: tank, healers: heal , rez, and rebuff , dps : kill the adds and wear down the boss.
Pretty much sums up most every PvE encounter.
Yes, but it is a much different beast when the prey that your raiding company is seeking out is other people (i.e. raid pvp). Read post #36, and start to imagine what would happen if the raiding company I was with was up against a coordinated team of merchants that used their roles to tactical advantage (they send out rogues to kill the weaker support groups for example). Also, in the game Silkroad Online, hunters (the bodyguards of merchants and essentially the "police" of Silkroad Online who hunted down and killed thieves) could deal more damage than normal when attacking a thief, while a thief got no attack bonus against a hunter. Therefore, thief tankers fighting hunters who weren't support-based characters wouldn't fit the role here well, nor would the rogues, but an invisible wizard who could 1 hit people easily, on the other hand...
I have never been a fan of raiding in any game i've played. why? because i don't see the point in spending hours upon hours of my life just for a slim CHANCE of getting an item that people say is THE BEST... During my time in Lord of the Rings Online a fellow guild member got friendly with the leader of another guild, one day they were asked to fill in for one of their regulars that couldn't make it, my guildie knew what she was doing and with the promise of the loot being rolled on in some way she accepted the invite and off they went. My guild friend mentioned was at mine during this raid so i set my character afk as it was late and quiet and then watched her in the raid, after the raid i had a steaming argument with the guild leader who was leading the raid as he told an outright lie to my friend, instead of the loot being on a roll system when they had short breaks before moving on he actually looted a very rare item straight away and stated, "this is for the healer who couldn't make it today" the rest of the group may have agreed with this decision but i was far from happy as it went completely against what he said to start with. As my blood continued to boil with repeated looting of the rares purely so he could share them with his guild mates i eventually told my friend to leave the raid and let em all die. I HATE LIERS!!!!! At the end of it all he contacted me (the GL/RL) and asked why i'd pulled my friend out of the raid (i take responcibility for my actions and decisions instead of leaving my friend to take the flak) i told him exactly why i had done it and his response was something like this "i only asked your friend to fill the open slot, all loots are for those that have raided with us before, you do so many raids and at a certain stage you recieve rewards for helping out" this really made my blood boil over as i detest the way people do that, if the group/raid changes in ANY way then the loot should be rolled on at random NOT just for those that have raided in the same group no matter how many times. Sorry for the long text for that but it's the best way i can describe my main reason for hating raids personally.. I tip my hat to those that enjoy raiding for the fun factor though. A long time ago i came to the conclusion that if one of the following were to change regarding raids then more people may enjoy them or we'd actually see just how many people do them purely for the loot. A. remove the so called "best items" from raids and put them in the normal non raid aspects of games. B. The duration it takes to complete a raid is lowered as well as lockout times decreased to match. C. Make some other form of content for "end game" thats neither PvP or Raid orientated. (before crafting is mentioned i've only known one game provide enough enjoyment in crafting, SWG and i've played quite a few MMO's)
My apologies if you consider this a wall of text and thank you for reading it to the end.
Hmmm...I must agree, I am hoping at this point that the guild leader who was in charge of the raid has his computer spontaneously burst on fire.
You had a bad case there boyo, I feel sorry for your friend. But there are cases in which raids can be good and beneficial. Read post #36. I was in the situation like your friend, but in this case the guild was nice to me and let me in on my deserved share of the loot. It all comes down to the guild, I suppose...
i use to raid it was alot of fun, but my guild was new and we was all learning the instances together, probably why it was fun. i think it would be boring as hell joining a guild that knew everything and just goin through the motions.died alot spent alot on repairs but was worth it. that was when i was on a temp, lay-off from work lasted like 3 months. got called back and that ended my raiding and ever playing WoW again and enjoying it really. was about 2 years ago, tried to go back and try WoTLK but just couldn't do it. Raided on my enhancement orc shaman, was in t5 raids. class leader and all sucked but gotta make money..lol
work is the main reason i don't raid, leave for work around 2:20 get home around midnight pretty much rules out any raiding in any game.
Except the person playing that game did eventually win, even though they just screwed around at the end. Yes, it might have taken 4 lives to do it but they still did.
You're just plain wrong.
Watch the video again. The player used four continues which adds up to twelve lives. Since this was an arcade game, it would have taken an investment of two dollars just to beat this boss. Arcade games were never designed to let players win unless they coughed up several large sacks of coinage. The idea that everyone should be able to win any given game is actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
Expect this kind of thing to make a comeback in the next few years. Mainstream game developers dread the idea of their game being considered as a "rental only" title. This is why JRPGs became so popular in the past and why "open world" games are so big right now. If it takes 100+ hours to beat a game, you'll be more inclined to buy it rather than rent it. The problem is that making games this way is expensive as hell and most titles never see a return on their investment. So expect to see shorter, cheaper, more difficult games in the next few years.
Isn't it impossible to do single-player like bosses and AI because of all the network traffic?
Like, not only does your toon and PC have to communicate to the server to send updates and such about your status/health etc and the bosses and such but then it all has to be transmitted to and from all the other group and raid members too?
I mean, your healer doesn't see your health go down from a hit without your game communicating to the server, then back to you, and then the server to the healer, then the healer back to the server back to your to see your health go back up etc. etc. etc.
Isn't this why you can't spend too much processing power on really advanced AI and instead have to use scripts and stuff?
I'm no network designer or game designer, but it seems like common sense stuff to me.
I do agree with one thing though, that PvE at least in a GOOD game is designed so that the player(s) can and will eventually win once they acquire the neccessary skills and gear and such.
I'd hate playing a game where it's not designed for me to win, doesn't mean it doesn't have to be challenging to get that victory, if anything I love and appreciate the challenge, but designed to fail? No thanks, I'm not paying 15$ a month to play a game that I have no chance of ever winning.
Isn't it impossible to do single-player like bosses and AI because of all the network traffic? Like, not only does your toon and PC have to communicate to the server to send updates and such about your status/health etc and the bosses and such but then it all has to be transmitted to and from all the other group and raid members too? I mean, your healer doesn't see your health go down from a hit without your game communicating to the server, then back to you, and then the server to the healer, then the healer back to the server back to your to see your health go back up etc. etc. etc. Isn't this why you can't spend too much processing power on really advanced AI and instead have to use scripts and stuff? I'm no network designer or game designer, but it seems like common sense stuff to me.
I do agree with one thing though, that PvE at least in a GOOD game is designed so that the player(s) can and will eventually win once they acquire the neccessary skills and gear and such. I'd hate playing a game where it's not designed for me to win, doesn't mean it doesn't have to be challenging to get that victory, if anything I love and appreciate the challenge, but designed to fail? No thanks, I'm not paying 15$ a month to play a game that I have no chance of ever winning.
If you were dealing with a true real-time system it would be too much. With MMORPGs, you're dealing with a system that processes everything in batches. We refer to this as a "tic" based system. Every time the server goes through one game loop it equals a tic. Usually this takes close to one second. So MMORPGs are really just turn based games where many turns are taken care of automatically. It's kind of like the "kill" command in most MUDs.
Tics in instances, where most raids take place, can actually be shorter but that depends on how the server cluster manages instances. If you have a machined dedicated to running running multiple instances of the same... instance then processing can actually be much faster than on open world server.
Think of instances like tables in Yahoo Poker. While one machine may be running multiple tables, each table is actually an instance of a dedicated Poker server. The advantage here is that the server knows how many players can be in each dedicated instance and sets a timer for each players turn. Since we know the number of players and the amount of time between each action, that gives the server time process game logic. MMORPGs have a shorter timer, but it's the same basic principle.
If you want to get a better handle on how these games work under the hood, go check out The CircleMUD codebase or just look get the source for a UO or Lineage 2 server emulator. When I started looking into the coding of these things I was absolutely shocked at how small the actual code was and how much of the process was really just database scripting.
If you were dealing with a true real-time system it would be too much. With MMORPGs, you're dealing with a system that processes everything in batches. We refer to this as a "tic" based system. Every time the server goes through one game loop it equals a tic. Usually this takes close to one second. So MMORPGs are really just turn based games where many turns are taken care of automatically. It's kind of like the "kill" command in most MUDs. Tics in instances, where most raids take place, can actually be shorter but that depends on how the server cluster manages instances. If you have a machined dedicated to running running multiple instances of the same... instance then processing can actually be much faster than on open world server. Think of instances like tables in Yahoo Poker. While one machine may be running multiple tables, each table is actually an instance of a dedicated Poker server. The advantage here is that the server knows how many players can be in each dedicated instance and sets a timer for each players turn. Since we know the number of players and the amount of time between each action, that gives the server time process game logic. MMORPGs have a shorter timer, but it's the same basic principle. If you want to get a better handle on how these games work under the hood, go check out The CircleMUD codebase or just look get the source for a UO or Lineage 2 server emulator. When I started looking into the coding of these things I was absolutely shocked at how small the actual code was and how much of the process was really just database scripting.
But still aren't you limited by the amount of data you can transmit over a single tic back and forth?
I mean, not everyone runs on super high speed broadband or better, I doubt many people who play MMOs use dial up anymore, but even low level broadband isn't too great.
Seems like the more people you have and the more complicated the fight is and the more scripts the server has to call for per tic and such etc. etc. it'd really eat up the bandwidth and thus cause lag and dead players.
Hell you can even throw in individual PC performance because not everyone has super computers and such, so you can cause a lot of lag that way.
I had burned out on raiding, but Vanguard has got me back into it. Also, having a great guild of adults that are punctual and listen helps a ton. We plan our raids in advance and use a custom scheduler. We also vary the raid targets, smaller raids for days when people have less time (maybe just a 12-man 1 hour raid) and larger raids for Friday nights when people have a few hours for a good dungeon crawel (24-man for 3-4 hours).
Variety and flexibility with raid targets plus a great group of folks has made raiding something that I look forward to during the week. If we schedule for 7pm, everyone is ready by 6:45pm. In fact, we've had our first target dead before the schedule start time on some evenings. That kind of committment makes it fun for everyone.
Comments
My first experience of regular raiding was a few months after WoW started. I had refused to join any guild but I got invited to raids by the top guild on my server because not many players were ready for raiding and I happened to be one of them.
Everything was fine until I won some loot. Soon after, I learned that some people had started some pretty nasty bitching about me behind my back. The ringleader was a fellow rogue with whom I had always been on good terms. The whole incident really opened my eyes to the ugly effect loot-greed has on people in a game based on gear progression.
I quit raiding immediately and ended up not playing WoW again for 15 months.
I couldn't have said that better, before I quit WoW back in april I had a limited time schedule and i had to be off by a certain time. People always sat and screwed around, had no respect for the raid leader and to make things worse the guild leader didnt even want to schedule raids at times convenient for anyone else but the high up people in the guild, or when it was convenient for him. The whole aura of it was way to serious and it was just a huge blame one person game that got to be horrible. People starting take the game way to seriously, and weren't willing to compromise to meet the needs of anyone
Yeah the problem being is if you have a $125k a year job, you're not spending all of your free time raiding because you don't have a lot of free time to begin with and most of the people in the "hardcore" guilds fail so much at real life and are usually the one on the low end of the real life scale...
So win in life = fail at raids
Win in games = call Gamers anonymous because it is probably destroying your life, relationships and work.
One steps to making raids less of a damn drag would be to completely eliminate lock out timers... so it wouldn't such a friggin chore to get 6/10/25 to run an instance etc.
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you totally missed the reference to a good guild being like a 125k guild. a bad guild being like a 25k job. reading comprehension isnt your strong point.
And your reference to no lifers being good at mmos is way off also. i am retired at 40. Guess what, im rich and I came from a single mother of 4 boys. Winners are winners regardless of what medium they are in be it life or an MMO. In the same light, losers are losers in everything.
I don't raid because I find it boring. It's much too long of a time commitment for a lot of the same, and encounters either are stale or get screwed up by one person. That's actually what I disliked about a lot of raiding in WoW, one person screwing up can destroy the raid. I totally understand why it should be like that but it made it less of a challenge and more of me tearing my hair out, when I'm doing what I need to be doing and someone else is dicking around and fucks up.
As far as the entire debate goes about how you can make it different I do think raids could get some better life into them. I don't know if it's really as much about the difficulty (although you can certainly make something really difficult if you want) and more about just making something entertaining enough that you'll want to go do it multiple times. I also would much prefer encounters that don't practically require you to read a strategy guide online to do them because it ends up that that is all the encounter is about. It becomes less about personal skills and more about how well do you know a fight.
In a single player game (a hard one) even if I know what a boss does that doesn't mean that it still might be difficult. Sure, in DMC4 I might know what that boss is going to do but I still need the reaction, timing, ability to pull off combos and such to do it. In Street Fighter IV against the CPU even though I know what Seth can do, I know his moves and general info about them, I still need to have the skill and quick thinking to adapt.
I actually really enjoyed doing things such as diablo and Bhaal runs in Diablo II, which could probably be seen as a less hardcore version of raiding. You get in there, fuck some shit up and kill the boss and get loot. It was pretty simple but I'll be damned if it wasn't fun.
I do think that trying to stray away from pure mathematical formulas (which I understand that in development terms is very difficult to do) but it would be nice to make it so that encounters could be challenging while not being so ... strict? I'm probably just rambling right now, but I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. It would be nice to see some more epic feeling encounters although I feel that they would have to dwell much more into action RPG elements to do so than the current way MMOs work.
It certainly would be possible to set up certain things within an action RPG setting though I think. Like make it so that the tank (or someone) has to watch out for an opening on the boss and then stab him in the eye allowing him to take damage for a bit. Really stupid and simple example but you get the idea, even though it's only possible in an action RPG oriented system.
Even though I am a hardcore raider, I do agree with those points. My opinion of raiding is that it's fun if the situation is unpredicatable. That can be difficult to do with scripted pve enemies in most mmorpgs, but I have heard of a few mmorpgs that had invented a way around this problem.
The Monster Hunter series (I think that's what it's called, it's a game with a complete craft-based economy and you fight dinosaurs) did have scripted pve enemies, but the would spawn randomly at random times and in random quantities. So if you were happily manslaughtering a few enemies, and thought you were invincible, well, all of a sudden a mob of 7 enemies suddenly surrounds you out of the blue, which could very well get you wasted. So the elements of pve in that series are unpredictable, and you can't simply lolligag through the whole thing, you have to watch your back to make sure the game doesn't sick you with a mob out of nowhere.
Edit Part: My raid story that Maeiliu talks about is actually located on page 2 (though it may differ with different computer screens, but it should be on either page 1,2, or 3.
500 hrs at a raid= A pair virtual magical boots that you can equip and look at and...that's about it.
500 hrs at a low paying second job=A high class hooker that will do anything you want.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Feh, for me those "500 hours" meant I made friends with the right thief-only guild, and went on many more memorable raiding adventures to kick ass and install fear inside Silkroad Online, as well as make a decent living off of thieving alone. Also noticable is that I attained alot of loot on those raids, which benefited my alchemy, thus I crafted powerful alchemic stones thanks to the extra loot I attained as my share of helping out the guild on these raids. It's too bad I never joined their guild (I already belonged to one), but I thank my lucky stars that I became great friends with them and they invited me on many of their raids.
Sigh...It's too bad Silkroad Online realized too late that a max level cap past level 80 would spell doom for the average legit non-bot using player...
I don't raid, because it's not my play style. It's too time consuming, political and must be repeated ad nauseum in order to get geared up. I'ts a cheap paradigm that was designed to waste time more than entertain and really only appeals to over achievers and masochists.
The one good thing about the industry's obsession over raiding is that it keeps me from becoming an MMO addict, since the industry is too stupid and blind to come up with an alternative.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Raids are only fun if you only have to run them once or twice.
Farming raids weekly for a couple months is what blows ass.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
1) Drama
2) Lootwhore
3) Asshats
4) Rinse and repeat, nothing new.
5) ????
6) Boring.
7) Huge repair bills with nubz
*Added #7.
You could list those for pvp as well. For loot whores the people that just afk through pvp or cheat are the whores that ruin it.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
well, i guess if you think about it. In these WOW type games. What else can a guild do together? Without raiding, what else can 25-40 people from your guild go and do together? Would people still join guilds without raiding? If fewer people join guilds..what happens then? Would people pay 15 a month for a game that allows you to see a bunch of people, but only interact with 8 at a time? its just diablo. Nothing massive about it. A big scam to get 15 a month. maybe raiding is the illusion that holds it all together.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
4 Years of WoW, and in the end it was all that I found fun in the game...
The trouble is once you get good or get into the rotation, it never seems to be fulfilling enough for the time investment. I wish it could be login & have a ball whenever you feel like it, but to keep a guild together & raid capable, gotta have static times & schedules...unless you have a thick RL/ingame crew with you. I'm waiting for the game where raiding doesnt become part-time job, or feel like it in the least...
There is an amazing epiphany a person can have after long term raiding, working 40+ hours a week, to come home and -not- have to microwave a meal or scramble for the headset, instead I can do whatever I like...and that freedom & relaxation is better than any raiding, anyday
Get a job, friends, a significant other, an RL hobby and then you can easily answer...Its a fine experience, once in a lifetime when your young and in retrospect I feel (almost) sorry for the older folks who just can't stop.
Ohhhh...but I liked wasting merchants with a highly coordinated team, that made raiding fun for me...
Plus, you do know that right now the industry's obsession is about hating the raiding concept, not supporting it, which is why us hardcore raiders are appearing in masses right now. Plus, can you honestly say that highly coordinated teamwork is always a drag? In my opinion, raiding which involves uncertainties (you may be up against opponents that are very tough, even for your entire group) can be alot of fun. Too many people look at the negatives of raiding and just don't see how much fun raiding can be. I'm all up for balance as well, but I don't think the raiding concept should be killed off, it does add a whole new level of fun and adventuring for me personally, as well as alot of raiders out there too.
I would not say that highly coordinated teamwork is a drag, but let's be honest. There are very few epic encounters in any game right now that take it. Get your tanks, get your healers, get your dps. Ok what's the trick to this mob? Ahh tanks: tank, healers: heal , rez, and rebuff , dps : kill the adds and wear down the boss.
Pretty much sums up most every PvE encounter.
I have never been a fan of raiding in any game i've played. why? because i don't see the point in spending hours upon hours of my life just for a slim CHANCE of getting an item that people say is THE BEST...
During my time in Lord of the Rings Online a fellow guild member got friendly with the leader of another guild, one day they were asked to fill in for one of their regulars that couldn't make it, my guildie knew what she was doing and with the promise of the loot being rolled on in some way she accepted the invite and off they went. My guild friend mentioned was at mine during this raid so i set my character afk as it was late and quiet and then watched her in the raid, after the raid i had a steaming argument with the guild leader who was leading the raid as he told an outright lie to my friend, instead of the loot being on a roll system when they had short breaks before moving on he actually looted a very rare item straight away and stated, "this is for the healer who couldn't make it today" the rest of the group may have agreed with this decision but i was far from happy as it went completely against what he said to start with. As my blood continued to boil with repeated looting of the rares purely so he could share them with his guild mates i eventually told my friend to leave the raid and let em all die. I HATE LIERS!!!!!
At the end of it all he contacted me (the GL/RL) and asked why i'd pulled my friend out of the raid (i take responcibility for my actions and decisions instead of leaving my friend to take the flak) i told him exactly why i had done it and his response was something like this "i only asked your friend to fill the open slot, all loots are for those that have raided with us before, you do so many raids and at a certain stage you recieve rewards for helping out" this really made my blood boil over as i detest the way people do that, if the group/raid changes in ANY way then the loot should be rolled on at random NOT just for those that have raided in the same group no matter how many times.
Sorry for the long text for that but it's the best way i can describe my main reason for hating raids personally..
I tip my hat to those that enjoy raiding for the fun factor though.
A long time ago i came to the conclusion that if one of the following were to change regarding raids then more people may enjoy them or we'd actually see just how many people do them purely for the loot.
A. remove the so called "best items" from raids and put them in the normal non raid aspects of games.
B. The duration it takes to complete a raid is lowered as well as lockout times decreased to match.
C. Make some other form of content for "end game" thats neither PvP or Raid orientated. (before crafting is mentioned i've only known one game provide enough enjoyment in crafting, SWG and i've played quite a few MMO's)
My apologies if you consider this a wall of text and thank you for reading it to the end.
I would not say that highly coordinated teamwork is a drag, but let's be honest. There are very few epic encounters in any game right now that take it. Get your tanks, get your healers, get your dps. Ok what's the trick to this mob? Ahh tanks: tank, healers: heal , rez, and rebuff , dps : kill the adds and wear down the boss.
Pretty much sums up most every PvE encounter.
Yes, but it is a much different beast when the prey that your raiding company is seeking out is other people (i.e. raid pvp). Read post #36, and start to imagine what would happen if the raiding company I was with was up against a coordinated team of merchants that used their roles to tactical advantage (they send out rogues to kill the weaker support groups for example). Also, in the game Silkroad Online, hunters (the bodyguards of merchants and essentially the "police" of Silkroad Online who hunted down and killed thieves) could deal more damage than normal when attacking a thief, while a thief got no attack bonus against a hunter. Therefore, thief tankers fighting hunters who weren't support-based characters wouldn't fit the role here well, nor would the rogues, but an invisible wizard who could 1 hit people easily, on the other hand...
Hmmm...I must agree, I am hoping at this point that the guild leader who was in charge of the raid has his computer spontaneously burst on fire.
You had a bad case there boyo, I feel sorry for your friend. But there are cases in which raids can be good and beneficial. Read post #36. I was in the situation like your friend, but in this case the guild was nice to me and let me in on my deserved share of the loot. It all comes down to the guild, I suppose...
i use to raid it was alot of fun, but my guild was new and we was all learning the instances together, probably why it was fun. i think it would be boring as hell joining a guild that knew everything and just goin through the motions.died alot spent alot on repairs but was worth it. that was when i was on a temp, lay-off from work lasted like 3 months. got called back and that ended my raiding and ever playing WoW again and enjoying it really. was about 2 years ago, tried to go back and try WoTLK but just couldn't do it. Raided on my enhancement orc shaman, was in t5 raids. class leader and all sucked but gotta make money..lol
work is the main reason i don't raid, leave for work around 2:20 get home around midnight pretty much rules out any raiding in any game.
Why don't I raid? Because I play EVE.
Just Plain Wrong.
Except the person playing that game did eventually win, even though they just screwed around at the end. Yes, it might have taken 4 lives to do it but they still did.
You're just plain wrong.
Watch the video again. The player used four continues which adds up to twelve lives. Since this was an arcade game, it would have taken an investment of two dollars just to beat this boss. Arcade games were never designed to let players win unless they coughed up several large sacks of coinage. The idea that everyone should be able to win any given game is actually a fairly recent phenomenon.
Expect this kind of thing to make a comeback in the next few years. Mainstream game developers dread the idea of their game being considered as a "rental only" title. This is why JRPGs became so popular in the past and why "open world" games are so big right now. If it takes 100+ hours to beat a game, you'll be more inclined to buy it rather than rent it. The problem is that making games this way is expensive as hell and most titles never see a return on their investment. So expect to see shorter, cheaper, more difficult games in the next few years.
Isn't it impossible to do single-player like bosses and AI because of all the network traffic?
Like, not only does your toon and PC have to communicate to the server to send updates and such about your status/health etc and the bosses and such but then it all has to be transmitted to and from all the other group and raid members too?
I mean, your healer doesn't see your health go down from a hit without your game communicating to the server, then back to you, and then the server to the healer, then the healer back to the server back to your to see your health go back up etc. etc. etc.
Isn't this why you can't spend too much processing power on really advanced AI and instead have to use scripts and stuff?
I'm no network designer or game designer, but it seems like common sense stuff to me.
I do agree with one thing though, that PvE at least in a GOOD game is designed so that the player(s) can and will eventually win once they acquire the neccessary skills and gear and such.
I'd hate playing a game where it's not designed for me to win, doesn't mean it doesn't have to be challenging to get that victory, if anything I love and appreciate the challenge, but designed to fail? No thanks, I'm not paying 15$ a month to play a game that I have no chance of ever winning.
Your opinion is immaterial.
If you were dealing with a true real-time system it would be too much. With MMORPGs, you're dealing with a system that processes everything in batches. We refer to this as a "tic" based system. Every time the server goes through one game loop it equals a tic. Usually this takes close to one second. So MMORPGs are really just turn based games where many turns are taken care of automatically. It's kind of like the "kill" command in most MUDs.
Tics in instances, where most raids take place, can actually be shorter but that depends on how the server cluster manages instances. If you have a machined dedicated to running running multiple instances of the same... instance then processing can actually be much faster than on open world server.
Think of instances like tables in Yahoo Poker. While one machine may be running multiple tables, each table is actually an instance of a dedicated Poker server. The advantage here is that the server knows how many players can be in each dedicated instance and sets a timer for each players turn. Since we know the number of players and the amount of time between each action, that gives the server time process game logic. MMORPGs have a shorter timer, but it's the same basic principle.
If you want to get a better handle on how these games work under the hood, go check out The CircleMUD codebase or just look get the source for a UO or Lineage 2 server emulator. When I started looking into the coding of these things I was absolutely shocked at how small the actual code was and how much of the process was really just database scripting.
But still aren't you limited by the amount of data you can transmit over a single tic back and forth?
I mean, not everyone runs on super high speed broadband or better, I doubt many people who play MMOs use dial up anymore, but even low level broadband isn't too great.
Seems like the more people you have and the more complicated the fight is and the more scripts the server has to call for per tic and such etc. etc. it'd really eat up the bandwidth and thus cause lag and dead players.
Hell you can even throw in individual PC performance because not everyone has super computers and such, so you can cause a lot of lag that way.
Your opinion is immaterial.
I had burned out on raiding, but Vanguard has got me back into it. Also, having a great guild of adults that are punctual and listen helps a ton. We plan our raids in advance and use a custom scheduler. We also vary the raid targets, smaller raids for days when people have less time (maybe just a 12-man 1 hour raid) and larger raids for Friday nights when people have a few hours for a good dungeon crawel (24-man for 3-4 hours).
Variety and flexibility with raid targets plus a great group of folks has made raiding something that I look forward to during the week. If we schedule for 7pm, everyone is ready by 6:45pm. In fact, we've had our first target dead before the schedule start time on some evenings. That kind of committment makes it fun for everyone.