its not witchery, its about bioware wanting the game to be in a period when they have enough artistic freedom to tell a story without interfering with existing canon. and why should jedi be something you have to earn? i dont have anything against swg at all, but regarding this jedi starting class business, alot of people are being too unreasonable. its a different game, in a different time period. jedi were hard to unlock in swg because of the time period, which is the same reason they are available from the start in swtor.
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
its not witchery, its about bioware wanting the game to be in a period when they have enough artistic freedom to tell a story without interfering with existing canon. and why should jedi be something you have to earn? i dont have anything against swg at all, but regarding this jedi starting class business, alot of people are being too unreasonable. its a different game, in a different time period. jedi were hard to unlock in swg because of the time period, which is the same reason they are available from the start in swtor.
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
Not really a Jedi thing specifically.
If they'd have forced roleplaying on Jedi, both to actually achieve the unlock and to survive, you wouldn't have had casual players getting stomped 24/7. Or almost ever. SOE failed at that. For other alpha classes in other games, I agree with you, but considering the lore I'm a firm believer that player Jedi could have absolutely co-existed with other players without causing problems, and without ruining everyone else's experience.
That said, in TOR it makes more sense that they are doing it the way they are for the reasons Toquio3 outlined. Different game, different time period, and they are telling everyone up front - other players will be equal to Jedi. Players are considered 'heroes' in TOR, which by definition is 'exceptional citizens'. In SWG pre-CU, you could be absolutely anyone, meaning you had to make a choice to be an 'exceptional citizen' - you weren't considered one from the outset.
That whole thing about being able to basically be the same and be a jedi though just doesn't seem like it should be. But maybe that's just cause I'm too prejudiced cause I liked SWG. I just wish they would have a game that was coming out that would be something like it or at least something that had a similar system, you don't see many games with the kinda skill system they had that was that intricate.
its not witchery, its about bioware wanting the game to be in a period when they have enough artistic freedom to tell a story without interfering with existing canon. and why should jedi be something you have to earn? i dont have anything against swg at all, but regarding this jedi starting class business, alot of people are being too unreasonable. its a different game, in a different time period. jedi were hard to unlock in swg because of the time period, which is the same reason they are available from the start in swtor.
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
Not really a Jedi thing specifically.
Jedi are not supposed to be in star wars galaxies.
People were made that they worked hard to unlock them and then the switch was flipped so anyone could play one. Again, they should never have been in the game in the first place. Dangling the jedi carrot in front of people was a tragic mismanagement of the game. People only worked at unlocking jedi, because there just wasn't much to do in the game content wise. Again a result of mismanagment from the team.
The holocron craze was such a short term bandaid fix to problem that only made the situation worse. It really started the downward spiral that was not recoverable.
I gave my holocron away for a haiku, because honestly I hated what it was doing to the game and I really enjoyed my professions. Enticing people to grind profession after profession for the hopes of possibly getting something to do was terrible content and such lack of vision. That seems to be the soe way though. Either grind empty experience bars or pay cash for loot cards. *shrug*
Jedi are fine in the old republic, because they make sense there. Making them a playable race pretty much ensures they are going to be toned down to average human levels to keep balance, but it is a game after all.
Ryzom also has the skill based system that works, meaningfull crafting, fun harvesting system. Plus it has some nice extra features, like u can create your own skills, create your own instances etc.
If they'd have forced roleplaying on Jedi, both to actually achieve the unlock and to survive, you wouldn't have had casual players getting stomped 24/7. Or almost ever. SOE failed at that. For other alpha classes in other games, I agree with you, but considering the lore I'm a firm believer that player Jedi could have absolutely co-existed with other players without causing problems, and without ruining everyone else's experience. That said, in TOR it makes more sense that they are doing it the way they are for the reasons Toquio3 outlined. Different game, different time period, and they are telling everyone up front - other players will be equal to Jedi. Players are considered 'heroes' in TOR, which by definition is 'exceptional citizens'. In SWG pre-CU, you could be absolutely anyone, meaning you had to make a choice to be an 'exceptional citizen' - you weren't considered one from the outset.
An off topic remark from me... just showcasing how different Jedi have been depicted from the days of the Original Trilogy movie releases to the Prequel / Old Republic era.
In the Original Trilogy, Jedi were treated as something special. Something that fans could be held in awe with. For as little times lightsabers and force usage was shown in the Original Trilogy, Jedi were still deemed special and powerful.
But, with the advent of the Prequel movies, Jedi are really nothing special. A simple blaster shot to the back in cold blood, or simple deception and betrayal are more than enough powerful weapons in dealing with Jedi, who were once considered great.
All the fancy force usage and fancy lightsaber swings, supposed "connection" with the Force, all the Jedi wisdom and insight, the lifetime worth of training and indoctrination, the special and powerful place the Jedi Order had in the Republic, didn't prevent one simple fact: That the Jedi were essentially wiped out by plain 'ol deception, played out from right in front of their faces, in their very own backyard, by a very patient, scheming, clever man. He planned it. And simple Clonetroopers executed that plan (and the Jedi) with plain 'ol deception.
The Force... Ha!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I sort of the miss how the old game did things...but it got realy lame real quick.
The first things that happened where the develoeprs constantly listening to a fe idiot pvpers onthe forums.
I mean get this....a player decided to go and camp out a spawn point at a shuttle area...anyone loading in of the other faction he would kill.
So then people figurted out what was going on and had their creature handler chaarcters kick his behind...the player whined becasue it wasnt fair that he got beaten by a creature handler.......so the developers made the creatures formthe creture handler weaker...alot weaker....so much more so that the ones you encounter inthe wilderness could kill the creatures now in a few hits....
it got worse form there...that same person and some friends decided to realy get revenge so they decided to not only make creture handlers but do things to try and grief other players....like putting rancors or the giant lizards into the coantinas....so the developers instead of making those areas no pet places they decided oh....now creature handlers can only use so many of specifc creature levels.
Weakenign their threat....the same people rallied and proceeded to pick on anyone who chose to be of the imperial faction...they would go tothe broken imperial bases that had non-working faction detectors and grief people....if they died they would come back and keep doing it....yepo they could choose to clone close by and could get revenge becasue of the way the game worked...and no one else could attack them until they did what they did...
This got complained about time and again but the develoeprs didnt do anything becasue the people griefing where there friends...
At one point the friends....of the develoeprs decided to attack a town being attempted to be created by imperial players.....they did the same old grief tactics...this time though a clever imperial player found out heck!! why not put land mines in front of hte clone facility so if they come out they die......oh this killed them and then they whined and in less then a day a change was made to stop that.
This went on like htis for months.....eventualy the devloeprs put jedis inthe game.....they didnt have them coded yet.....but they put them in....and guess who the first jedis where? Why the cherry picked favorites of the developers......the devs made excuses like they only gave the class to people who had mastered all professions.....yeah about 50 people including myself had done that...yet didnt get the class.....
So in a short time they then added this holocron to tell you what you needed to do.....guess what mine and those same people i mentioned who didnt unlock the jedi.....we got a holocron that said inthe text: The Holocron is silent....
Yep...lets just says that was the start of the great exodus from that game......i actualy stayed for a while.....until they added the jet pack schematic thing.......if you played...you knew about the msision and the schematic and how broken that mission was and how the jet pack did nada.
I actualy quit at that point......i just got sick of hte lies from their team....the excuses they made as to why they wouldnt change the color palletes from 4 green collors 4 browns and an off white and a black......
The engine was based on everquest and was the same engine used for ever quest 2...yet the developement team refused to add anything everquest or everquest 2 added...they made excuses and promises they never kept.
So for me...do i miss the game....kind of......maybe before they started altering it too much....like when players could actualy kill the enemies and when players could set up a house and things anywhere they wanted......before the creature handler original nerf.....
You should have seen what they did to bounty hunters and terakasai masters and to commandos before i left......boy they nerfed them hard.....
Teh explanation was that those classes where too strong......never mind that the enemies we faced had 100% resistance to all and 100 times more health......a quote form a post.
"We dont find that a Rocket Launcher or Lightning Gun should be able to do as much damage on specifc encountersas they do...so we have temporarily rebalnced them to do lower damage."
Yeah they lowered the damage to about 100 damage....from the once 1000 damage per shot....which was not only less damage then a laser pistol but also even when it did 1000 dmage...it only would one shot kill another player at that time.
Yah that was another issue.....they felt that a player with 1000 damage on all three...health, mind and agility was enough....never mind everything had 100 times more of everything.....
Oh well you really got me going there about what the develoeprs did to that game.....
The new changes at least make the game playable...there was a point that my bioengineer doctor was considered so high a level when they started trying to use a level system that i didnt get any exp for anything that would rip me to shreds......it was kind of sad....
As i said i left and never came back.....seeing how sony handles things...i dont think i will come back either...
Thats not to say the present version is bad.....it simply a choice from an unpleasent experience.....
I am happy with the newer game i am playing now....which has customer service and things in it...that blows away any other game.....and onthe plus side it doesnt have the familiar railroad track physics and grinding offered by WOW or SWG.....I can fly for as long as i want...run at super speed as long as i want....and go pretty much anywhere...and that is alot more fun to me.
Does anyone else miss the way Star Wars Galaxies used to be, YES the skill based system that would allow you to be any kind of character you want to, YES instead of the lousy way it is now where you can just pick something and grind away like any other MMO? That is PURE a playstyle of people who try to play as you are not forced by the game to grind only YOU the player choises to grind but it is NOT needed unless a person is not playing but working a game. I remember when you used to see a Jedi in that game and you would be like holy bajesus, that guy/girl would rape my face and they must be some sort of god. And now it's like, oh look, I can pick a Jedi from the start. Yeah the first 6 month to a year where nice, after that it already was going downhill when people figured out how to get jedi as for many it seemed to only thing that they could do ingame at the time, so please lets not pretend that the jedi thing was brought in by the CU or NGE as anyone who REALLY playede back then already saw the influx of more jedi by the day long before CU or NGE. Lousy retardedness. I guess my rant was just wondering if there will ever be another good game like the old Star Wars, so if there will be, help me out and list them. The biggest thing in SWG which made the game what it was, was mostly it's community, since in my opinion the majority of players into this genre are more into greed overall most MMORPG could be fun if only the community treated the genre as they can treath it, but nooooooo everyone is in such a rush these day's that they in my opinion have forgotten to have fun as most I see more doing a online job then actualy playing a MMORPG. Again it's people's playstyls that for the largest part has degraded this genre into just online games. Thanks for your time.
You are missing the point of the Jedi Craze in early SWG...
I was doing it to unlock the 2nd character slot. Which back then, we didn't have a lot of info about it. I still to this day can't remember if you HAD to make a Jedi in the 2nd slot, or if you could make anything.
I wanted to be a trader on character A, and a 2hander/Doc on character B.
That was the only real downfall that impacted me... The 1 character per server was harsh. I see it's purpose, and think it was great... but when we found out 2nd slot opened for Jedi... it just really changed the atmosphere. Back then I was a hardcore player, easily 8 hours a day after work and all weekend. Yet I even felt like it was aimed at a promoting account sharing(which we almost did just to get it unlocked) and also taking away from the galactic battle. We had tons of PvP in our city until the holocrons(or even before that when people, including myself, simply started maxing every profession in hopes of it being the right one).
While I'm sad to see the game stray from a classless system... I also realize that the casual market can't seem to handle classless yet. I mean, name me 5 classless MMOs that have been commericial subs(requiring monthly payment, no free to play crap).
UO... Asherons Call... EVE(which has certificates now, great way of helping new players and casual players with proper-ish training routes)... and... thats about all I can think of that REQUIRE a monthly subscription. Feel free to add to that list... I'd love to try some more classless!
Oh, and on a side note... since I probably won't make another post a year... I miss Earth & Beyond. Best beta experience I've ever had, next to Asherons Call.
forget 'bout jedi for a sec. TOR is gonna be just like NGE anyway. it won't have complex skills and crafting system that made SWG so great and unique in the first place...
Yes, classless mmo's are almost non-existing. And EVE isn't exactly a mainstream game either.
Though it would seem there are some mainstream mmo's in the make with classless systems, Champions Online for example, The Secret World also. But yeah, even with games in the making I can only come up with 2 names
Heat, pressure and time. The three things that make a diamond, also make a waffle. Also known as Ardanwen.
Ryzom is classless and sub-based, though not nearly mainstream, it has some of the features that made the old SWG unique, and even more player freedom.
Comments
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
Not really a Jedi thing specifically.
I guess you mean Mortal Online, and i think from the website the shop opens 29th of this month. So i guess its soon.
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
Not really a Jedi thing specifically.
If they'd have forced roleplaying on Jedi, both to actually achieve the unlock and to survive, you wouldn't have had casual players getting stomped 24/7. Or almost ever. SOE failed at that. For other alpha classes in other games, I agree with you, but considering the lore I'm a firm believer that player Jedi could have absolutely co-existed with other players without causing problems, and without ruining everyone else's experience.
That said, in TOR it makes more sense that they are doing it the way they are for the reasons Toquio3 outlined. Different game, different time period, and they are telling everyone up front - other players will be equal to Jedi. Players are considered 'heroes' in TOR, which by definition is 'exceptional citizens'. In SWG pre-CU, you could be absolutely anyone, meaning you had to make a choice to be an 'exceptional citizen' - you weren't considered one from the outset.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
That whole thing about being able to basically be the same and be a jedi though just doesn't seem like it should be. But maybe that's just cause I'm too prejudiced cause I liked SWG. I just wish they would have a game that was coming out that would be something like it or at least something that had a similar system, you don't see many games with the kinda skill system they had that was that intricate.
I think the key aspect that people liked was the fact that there was an unlockable alpha class, you don't get that in many MMOs these days as they don't tend to want their casual players getting stomped on 24/7.
Not really a Jedi thing specifically.
Jedi are not supposed to be in star wars galaxies.
People were made that they worked hard to unlock them and then the switch was flipped so anyone could play one. Again, they should never have been in the game in the first place. Dangling the jedi carrot in front of people was a tragic mismanagement of the game. People only worked at unlocking jedi, because there just wasn't much to do in the game content wise. Again a result of mismanagment from the team.
The holocron craze was such a short term bandaid fix to problem that only made the situation worse. It really started the downward spiral that was not recoverable.
I gave my holocron away for a haiku, because honestly I hated what it was doing to the game and I really enjoyed my professions. Enticing people to grind profession after profession for the hopes of possibly getting something to do was terrible content and such lack of vision. That seems to be the soe way though. Either grind empty experience bars or pay cash for loot cards. *shrug*
Jedi are fine in the old republic, because they make sense there. Making them a playable race pretty much ensures they are going to be toned down to average human levels to keep balance, but it is a game after all.
Ryzom also has the skill based system that works, meaningfull crafting, fun harvesting system. Plus it has some nice extra features, like u can create your own skills, create your own instances etc.
more here: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/katriell
An off topic remark from me... just showcasing how different Jedi have been depicted from the days of the Original Trilogy movie releases to the Prequel / Old Republic era.
In the Original Trilogy, Jedi were treated as something special. Something that fans could be held in awe with. For as little times lightsabers and force usage was shown in the Original Trilogy, Jedi were still deemed special and powerful.
But, with the advent of the Prequel movies, Jedi are really nothing special. A simple blaster shot to the back in cold blood, or simple deception and betrayal are more than enough powerful weapons in dealing with Jedi, who were once considered great.
All the fancy force usage and fancy lightsaber swings, supposed "connection" with the Force, all the Jedi wisdom and insight, the lifetime worth of training and indoctrination, the special and powerful place the Jedi Order had in the Republic, didn't prevent one simple fact: That the Jedi were essentially wiped out by plain 'ol deception, played out from right in front of their faces, in their very own backyard, by a very patient, scheming, clever man. He planned it. And simple Clonetroopers executed that plan (and the Jedi) with plain 'ol deception.
The Force... Ha!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I sort of the miss how the old game did things...but it got realy lame real quick.
The first things that happened where the develoeprs constantly listening to a fe idiot pvpers onthe forums.
I mean get this....a player decided to go and camp out a spawn point at a shuttle area...anyone loading in of the other faction he would kill.
So then people figurted out what was going on and had their creature handler chaarcters kick his behind...the player whined becasue it wasnt fair that he got beaten by a creature handler.......so the developers made the creatures formthe creture handler weaker...alot weaker....so much more so that the ones you encounter inthe wilderness could kill the creatures now in a few hits....
it got worse form there...that same person and some friends decided to realy get revenge so they decided to not only make creture handlers but do things to try and grief other players....like putting rancors or the giant lizards into the coantinas....so the developers instead of making those areas no pet places they decided oh....now creature handlers can only use so many of specifc creature levels.
Weakenign their threat....the same people rallied and proceeded to pick on anyone who chose to be of the imperial faction...they would go tothe broken imperial bases that had non-working faction detectors and grief people....if they died they would come back and keep doing it....yepo they could choose to clone close by and could get revenge becasue of the way the game worked...and no one else could attack them until they did what they did...
This got complained about time and again but the develoeprs didnt do anything becasue the people griefing where there friends...
At one point the friends....of the develoeprs decided to attack a town being attempted to be created by imperial players.....they did the same old grief tactics...this time though a clever imperial player found out heck!! why not put land mines in front of hte clone facility so if they come out they die......oh this killed them and then they whined and in less then a day a change was made to stop that.
This went on like htis for months.....eventualy the devloeprs put jedis inthe game.....they didnt have them coded yet.....but they put them in....and guess who the first jedis where? Why the cherry picked favorites of the developers......the devs made excuses like they only gave the class to people who had mastered all professions.....yeah about 50 people including myself had done that...yet didnt get the class.....
So in a short time they then added this holocron to tell you what you needed to do.....guess what mine and those same people i mentioned who didnt unlock the jedi.....we got a holocron that said inthe text: The Holocron is silent....
Yep...lets just says that was the start of the great exodus from that game......i actualy stayed for a while.....until they added the jet pack schematic thing.......if you played...you knew about the msision and the schematic and how broken that mission was and how the jet pack did nada.
I actualy quit at that point......i just got sick of hte lies from their team....the excuses they made as to why they wouldnt change the color palletes from 4 green collors 4 browns and an off white and a black......
The engine was based on everquest and was the same engine used for ever quest 2...yet the developement team refused to add anything everquest or everquest 2 added...they made excuses and promises they never kept.
So for me...do i miss the game....kind of......maybe before they started altering it too much....like when players could actualy kill the enemies and when players could set up a house and things anywhere they wanted......before the creature handler original nerf.....
You should have seen what they did to bounty hunters and terakasai masters and to commandos before i left......boy they nerfed them hard.....
Teh explanation was that those classes where too strong......never mind that the enemies we faced had 100% resistance to all and 100 times more health......a quote form a post.
"We dont find that a Rocket Launcher or Lightning Gun should be able to do as much damage on specifc encountersas they do...so we have temporarily rebalnced them to do lower damage."
Yeah they lowered the damage to about 100 damage....from the once 1000 damage per shot....which was not only less damage then a laser pistol but also even when it did 1000 dmage...it only would one shot kill another player at that time.
Yah that was another issue.....they felt that a player with 1000 damage on all three...health, mind and agility was enough....never mind everything had 100 times more of everything.....
Oh well you really got me going there about what the develoeprs did to that game.....
The new changes at least make the game playable...there was a point that my bioengineer doctor was considered so high a level when they started trying to use a level system that i didnt get any exp for anything that would rip me to shreds......it was kind of sad....
As i said i left and never came back.....seeing how sony handles things...i dont think i will come back either...
Thats not to say the present version is bad.....it simply a choice from an unpleasent experience.....
I am happy with the newer game i am playing now....which has customer service and things in it...that blows away any other game.....and onthe plus side it doesnt have the familiar railroad track physics and grinding offered by WOW or SWG.....I can fly for as long as i want...run at super speed as long as i want....and go pretty much anywhere...and that is alot more fun to me.
you're welcome.
You are missing the point of the Jedi Craze in early SWG...
I was doing it to unlock the 2nd character slot. Which back then, we didn't have a lot of info about it. I still to this day can't remember if you HAD to make a Jedi in the 2nd slot, or if you could make anything.
I wanted to be a trader on character A, and a 2hander/Doc on character B.
That was the only real downfall that impacted me... The 1 character per server was harsh. I see it's purpose, and think it was great... but when we found out 2nd slot opened for Jedi... it just really changed the atmosphere. Back then I was a hardcore player, easily 8 hours a day after work and all weekend. Yet I even felt like it was aimed at a promoting account sharing(which we almost did just to get it unlocked) and also taking away from the galactic battle. We had tons of PvP in our city until the holocrons(or even before that when people, including myself, simply started maxing every profession in hopes of it being the right one).
While I'm sad to see the game stray from a classless system... I also realize that the casual market can't seem to handle classless yet. I mean, name me 5 classless MMOs that have been commericial subs(requiring monthly payment, no free to play crap).
UO... Asherons Call... EVE(which has certificates now, great way of helping new players and casual players with proper-ish training routes)... and... thats about all I can think of that REQUIRE a monthly subscription. Feel free to add to that list... I'd love to try some more classless!
Oh, and on a side note... since I probably won't make another post a year... I miss Earth & Beyond. Best beta experience I've ever had, next to Asherons Call.
forget 'bout jedi for a sec. TOR is gonna be just like NGE anyway. it won't have complex skills and crafting system that made SWG so great and unique in the first place...
Yes, classless mmo's are almost non-existing. And EVE isn't exactly a mainstream game either.
Though it would seem there are some mainstream mmo's in the make with classless systems, Champions Online for example, The Secret World also. But yeah, even with games in the making I can only come up with 2 names
Heat, pressure and time. The three things that make a diamond, also make a waffle.
Also known as Ardanwen.
Ryzom is classless and sub-based, though not nearly mainstream, it has some of the features that made the old SWG unique, and even more player freedom.