Unless their Sub fee is lower then the normal... it's just lame.
Now if they are only charging 8 bucks a month, instead of the normal 15, I'd be a little more willing to accept it... but only a little.
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Originally posted by Raltar Developed for consoles? ...
STO uses the same platform as Champions Online and thus is available for consoles. Considering that both games use the same business models, having Atari as the owner and publisher, and are targeted for the mass market, I believe it is safe to say STO will be designed for use with consoles.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Unless their Sub fee is lower then the normal... it's just lame.
Now if they are only charging 8 bucks a month, instead of the normal 15, I'd be a little more willing to accept it... but only a little.
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
so if they lower the monthy rate are either you going to buy stuff from the cash shop? if your answer is no, then why do you think you deserve to have a lower monthy fee because they are going to have a cash shop you never intended to use anyway.
so if they lower the monthy rate are either you going to buy stuff from the cash shop? if your answer is no, then why do you think you deserve to have a lower monthy fee because they are going to have a cash shop you never intended to use anyway.
It all depends on what is available and what is not. With a lower monthly subscription rate I would be incline to make some additional purchases, for example having one of those cool looking ships (just for the looks) or custom uniforms, heck maybe designer sunglasses. I don't mind since crafting as far as I know is not being implemented.
If the items available are combat impacting then I will not pay or play as then such a game becomes a matter of "how much are you willing to spend to win" type game. I don't believe in spending money should be considered as a form of skill of winning a fight (within a game).
The problem as I have said is that any MMO which has had item malls, cash shops or real money for game money has never stopped at just non-game impacting items. They will first start off with simple items that are really of no concern, and then start adding in game impacting items little at a time as people become accepting of them. Which then leads up to paying a full price subscription along with some additional money for must have combat items or advantages.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
STO uses the same platform as Champions Online and thus is available for consoles. Considering that both games use the same business models, having Atari as the owner and publisher, and are targeted for the mass market, I believe it is safe to say STO will be designed for use with consoles.
Actually, I recall that in the past I heard rumors that Champions was being developed for consoles as well as PC, but there was no definitive anwser on which consoles or if it was actually going to happen. At this time it seems all efforts are being made to get the game released for PC first and maybe consoles later. Unless you have a link to some recently announced information in this reguard I'm going to believe what the official Champions Online FAQ says which is that the game is in development for PC... it doesn't mention consoles.
And the Star Trek Online FAQ says exactly the same thing. So I think its safe to assume the same thing.
That doesn't mean I doubt that they WANT to release this game for consoles. All game developers would probably be willing to push their own mother down a flight of stairs for a dollar, so it doesn't shock me that they would sell out their own game and fanbase to consoles for an extra dollar too. But think about how many MMOs have actually made it to consoles so far. I remember that not so long ago the Age of Conan developers wanted to release their game for both PC and console but the PC release went so badly that the console release was delayed. How did all of that turn out I wonder? I have to hold out some hope that something similar will happen with Champions and STO as well, they will be so busy with the PC version of the game that they may never get around to the console version.
(P.S. I hate Atari. Those jackasses insisted on putting SecuROM into Neverwinter Nights 2 and its various expansion packs.)
Unless their Sub fee is lower then the normal... it's just lame.
Now if they are only charging 8 bucks a month, instead of the normal 15, I'd be a little more willing to accept it... but only a little.
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
If I 'm playing a MMO like APB or something like that, where the game is taking place in the present, I would probably tolerate seeing a billboard or two in the game with ads on them, only because it actually adds to immersion and doesn't detract from it.
Now, if I'm playing SW:TOR or STO or some traditional fantasy MMO, I would immediately log out and cancel. I get bombarded by ads enough in every other aspect of life...I will not tolerate ads in a game like this.
Actually, I recall that in the past I heard rumors that Champions was being developed for consoles as well as PC, but there was no definitive anwser on which consoles or if it was actually going to happen. At this time it seems all efforts are being made to get the game released for PC first and maybe consoles later. Unless you have a link to some recently announced information in this reguard I'm going to believe what the official Champions Online FAQ says which is that the game is in development for PC... it doesn't mention consoles. And the Star Trek Online FAQ says exactly the same thing. So I think its safe to assume the same thing. That doesn't mean I doubt that they WANT to release this game for consoles. All game developers would probably be willing to push their own mother down a flight of stairs for a dollar, so it doesn't shock me that they would sell out their own game and fanbase to consoles for an extra dollar too. But think about how many MMOs have actually made it to consoles so far. I remember that not so long ago the Age of Conan developers wanted to release their game for both PC and console but the PC release went so badly that the console release was delayed. How did all of that turn out I wonder? I have to hold out some hope that something similar will happen with Champions and STO as well, they will be so busy with the PC version of the game that they may never get around to the console version. (P.S. I hate Atari. Those jackasses insisted on putting SecuROM into Neverwinter Nights 2 and its various expansion packs.)
AoC ruined multi-platform MMOs for me. It was my first and last. I'll never play another one.
Just because they may have scrapped plans for actually making this for consoles, doesn't mean the damage hasn't been done. This game may very well end up suffering the same way AoC did, even though the console port is pretty much scrapped for it. I'm talking small, linear zones, ridiculous use of instancing, limiting the number of players/object on screen at an artificially low number, crappy controls/UI, and other compromises made because of wanting it to work with the limitations of today's consoles.
Actually, I recall that in the past I heard rumors that Champions was being developed for consoles as well as PC, but there was no definitive anwser on which consoles or if it was actually going to happen. At this time it seems all efforts are being made to get the game released for PC first and maybe consoles later. Unless you have a link to some recently announced information in this reguard I'm going to believe what the official Champions Online FAQ says which is that the game is in development for PC... it doesn't mention consoles. And the Star Trek Online FAQ says exactly the same thing. So I think its safe to assume the same thing. That doesn't mean I doubt that they WANT to release this game for consoles. All game developers would probably be willing to push their own mother down a flight of stairs for a dollar, so it doesn't shock me that they would sell out their own game and fanbase to consoles for an extra dollar too. But think about how many MMOs have actually made it to consoles so far. I remember that not so long ago the Age of Conan developers wanted to release their game for both PC and console but the PC release went so badly that the console release was delayed. How did all of that turn out I wonder? I have to hold out some hope that something similar will happen with Champions and STO as well, they will be so busy with the PC version of the game that they may never get around to the console version. (P.S. I hate Atari. Those jackasses insisted on putting SecuROM into Neverwinter Nights 2 and its various expansion packs.)
I sat in a Champions Online talk and demonstration last year. Cryptic was designing Champions Online to be used for both PC and Console, so much so of having a Help Page showing how the console controller works. But you got me interested in checking on Champions again. I am surprised to find that the console side of things appears to be either delayed or canceled; even the FAQ no longer lists consoles.
So I guess there is some technological problems with the platform. You may be right that STO may not be ported for consoles... or even designed to work with consoles (in terms of game play and UI).
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
If I 'm playing a MMO like APB or something like that, where the game is taking place in the present, I would probably tolerate seeing a billboard or two in the game with ads on them, only because it actually adds to immersion and doesn't detract from it. Now, if I'm playing SW:TOR or STO or some traditional fantasy MMO, I would immediately log out and cancel. I get bombarded by ads enough in every other aspect of life...I will not tolerate ads in a game like this.
I completely agree.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
Maybe the reason why the Champions developers are no longer promoting a console version of the game is because of the failure of AoC and a massive backlash aginst Funcom for that failure. Perhaps these events have given other MMO developers in the industry a reason to pause and rethink their strategy in reguards to console development. Hopefully this will translate into a decision to keep STO as a PC only title (I noticed they have already stated there will be no MAC or Linux version) and thus produce a better/more focused game as a result. I kinda doubt it, but its atleast a small shred of hope.
And I agree completely with what Darth Osor said about the way PC games must be dumbed down on a technological level in order to make them functional on a console system. And this isn't just a recent issue with the current generation of consoles either. Even ten years or more ago this issue existed where PC games were difficult if not impossible to port to a console and console games ported to PC often seemed too simplistic when compared to their PC exclusive counterparts.
In fact, I used to have a favorite quote about this issue. There was this game developer named "Nick Herres" back in 2000 who worked for "Infogrames" (a company that has since been bought out by Atari of all people) while they were in the process of porting the PC version of Unreal Tournament to the Sega Dreamcast. Nick was in charge of modifing maps from the PC version to function on the Dreamcast version. When he explained how this was done he said the goal was to make the maps "1.5mb or less in order to fit in the memory of the DC" and it was obvious that his job was to strip the maps of all excess detail in order to make them small enough for the DC to handle them. This has always been one of my favorite examples of how inferior a console system is to a desktop PC.
I'm not a huge fan of Champions Online in the first place so I could truly care less what will become of that game. But STO needs to avoid the trap of console development like the plague. You cannot simulate a vast galaxy in a series of small boxes and it won't feel like a proper Star Trek game if the player is constantly crashing their ship into invisible walls every time they get too far away from a planet or starbase. The developers of this game should look to EvE Online when seeking inspiration for how large their universe needs to be. Using a similar system to EvE would work very well in my opinon, just add in the ability to warp between systems in place of always having to use gates. But a galaxy of that size would be impossible on a console.
@Raltor. Its not 2000 anymore. Consoles have harddrives too so your whole comparison to the dreamcast is really outdated.
I agree that cash shops are bad in games such as Requim where its a neccesity for leveling but that really hasn't been the case in Champions so far. If you don't want a Witchcraft action figure well then don't buy one.
@Raltor. Its not 2000 anymore. Consoles have harddrives too so your whole comparison to the dreamcast is really outdated.
Who is RaltOr?
Consoles have hard drives and modems and several other new gadgets, sure. But if I put a washing machine in my car does it cease to be a car? No, its still a car, just with some extra piece of technology stuffed into it for no apparent reason.
Consoles have been held back in terms of progress by two major issues down through gaming history:
The first is Hardware, which as you pointed out is an area where they have begun to catch up. But somehow console creators still have to find a way to create a $500 machine that can compete with a $2000+ desktop computer and that is always going to be an uphill battle. Consoles will never be upgradeable the way a Desktop PC is and they will still always lag behind in terms of cutting edge technology, even if only by a few years.
However its the SECOND issue that holds back consoles much more than the first. And that issue is that the MINDSET of console owners has not greatly changed since the days of the Genesis and SNES. Console owners don't really want to WORK for the console. They want to go to the store, slap down some money and walk home with a game in their hand which they can play within five minues of getting home. They want a quick, easy, simple form of entertainment which doesn't require a great deal of thought. Console developers design their games to cater to this crowd of people...
And thats a big part of why STO isn't getting player crews and a lot of other features which people on this forum are asking for. The average PC gamer wants to play a very deep, complex game with lots of possible social options. But just try selling a game like that to the average drunken frat boy with an Xbox or your little sister with her Wii. Its the mindset of these casual players and their consoles that really holds back the creative aspects of game design.
(P.S. Just an FYI for you, the fact that consoles have hard drives doesn't make my example with the Dreamcast outdated, since the 1.5mb of memory I made refrence to was RAM, not a hard drive. Even todays modern consoles still have less RAM than the average desktop PC owned by a gamer, so the example is still relevant even nine years later.)
I think consumers, like me, will eventually get fed up. Just like people are fed up with insurance, banks and credit cards. The result is going to be a Tea Party of gamers. The IT department I work in has a bit of down time. We can all code, we know artists ... the immediate future is cash shops and game taxation without representation. The not too distant future is a game you can download from my cloud server and play with your friends for free or a donation, whichever you choose.
It will be MUDs with Graphics.
AND ... if BIOWARE was intelligent, they'd be hard at work on a Neverwinter Nights Server toolset, to sell for $150 that would let you install a dedicated NWN server, connect up to 500 (or more) people, build cities and towns, change skills, classes, etc ... easily ... and then sell the client for $50. Offer professional expansions that include things like monsters, settings, spell effects, upgraded base graphics, updated graphic engines ... etc ..
It would be like the CounterStrike of MMOs. Crazy popular WELL beyond the typical lifetime of a game. Guess what their maintenance costs would be too ... ZERO ... but there would be thousands of custom servers out there within six weeks of release. You could get pay to play, free to play, cash shops, hard core, casual, PvP, PvE, RvR ... you could find the EXACT game you wanted and play with people that shared a majority of your opinions ...
Get really crazy and make the client a phone app too (but that's a whole different crazy idea)
It's going to be AWESOME and HUGE ....
So don't be too disheartened by the genre just yet ...
... the immediate future is cash shops and game taxation without representation. The not too distant future is a game you can download from my cloud server and play with your friends for free or a donation, whichever you choose. It will be MUDs with Graphics.
From my time spent playing MUDs back in the day I noticed one major problem which plagued nearly all of them: Their creators treated them as their own personal playground and were quick with the ban hammer any time someone asked for changes/improvements.
I've also seen this problem more recently with small browser based games like Zelderex Online. The owner and sole programmer of that game is just one guy who is only about 20 years old. But he charges five dollars for a subscription fee (you can also play for "free" but 90% of the game is locked out while paying users with all the bells and whistles can still attack you at any time) plus he let his ultra obnoxious wife be an administrator in the game, a power she abused at every oppertunity.
As much as I hate to admit it... capitalism often is the lesser of two evils. I just wish the gaming industry would go back to being just for nerds so the games would actually have to meet a certain level of quality and depth in order to sell. I blame the downfall of the industry on the uneducated Xbox and Wii onwers out there who think a "game" is anything with explosions or something to play at a party when you are too drunk to see straight.
You're certainly right Ralter, there are some very bad MUDs out there. But its not like having some douche stick their toe in your MMO and rush it, or change it, or nerf it ...
You'd buy the client and that'd be it. If you didn't like your current game, change servers.
If my idea was SWG, then you could find a pre-NGE server somewhere.
If my idea was Warhammer Online, you could find a server with a third faction, or fourth, or NO factions and every race was for itself.
And, I just thought of this, but one of the accidental side effects would be that there would be no centralized economy. Every server would have to have a gold farmer in order to be profitable selling gold for that game. And maybe admins would just let their servers go ... but maybe someone would actually read the logs where X4wd73s sold a tree root to Bob the Hack for 100mil gold.
Just as a comparison ... there are 17000 servers available for Call of Duty 4. Imagine if there were 17k servers, most with the same rules, but some with awesome (or crappy) changes ... that you could move to whenever the game you were playing starts moving in a direction you don't agree with.
But again: How many of those servers are going to be run by the kid I used to beat up back in high school who is now getting his revenge by becoming the internet policeman of his own private virtual world?
These sorts of ideas sound great on paper but often fail because the average person can't handle that kind of power and responsibility.
All those evil executives that are coming up with ideas like cash shops and EULAs that give them the right to erase your hard drive were probably just like us once... until someone gave them an ounce of power over another person and it was all down hill from there.
I don't know ... how many kids did you beat up, exactly? hehe
Seriously though, they won't ALL be bad. And if the admin is prick enough, he'll eventually be lording it over no-one because all his players will be on my server. And it's not like you'd have to guy buy a new game, you've already bought the game. So you'd just go to the "Internet Servers" option in your menu and pick one at random. It would be like having every fantasy MMO available for a one time purchase of $50 and then (maybe) some kind of monthly fee.
And it may be a niche market. But development and maintenance would, compared to a modern MMO, be effectively zero.
Random thought ... is it possible that execs actually drive people away from games intentionally so they'll buy new boxes? AoC for example sold 1mil copies but went down to a tiny fraction of that in real subs in less than six months, which means, for that game, they biggest percentage of expenditure for the majority of their players was on the initial purchase ... hmmm ...
So, for AoC, had they JUST released the base world and the tools used to MOD it, they actually would've made more money.
Well, sure, if the admin of the server you are on is a jerk you can always leave. Thats pretty much always the theory though, right? Even if you don't like the guys who develop one MMO or don't like the moderators on a certain forum you can always go elsewhere. But that doesn't mean that things are going to be BETTER anywhere else. More often than not you simply run into the same problems time and time again no matter where you go.
See, my thing is that I believe anyone who gets put into a position where they can lord over their own personal virtual world will eventually turn into a jerk, even you and even me. I think that is simply a sad fact of human nature. I think its the reason why so many game developers are self-serving assholes who won't listen to their customers. And I think if we gave average joe off the street the chance to run his own private MMO it would simply happen to him too.
In the long term people would probably figure out who the biggest assholes were and try to gravitate towards servers which were atleast somewhat to their liking. But then we end up in a situation where people are just breaking themselves down into small groups with each one calling their own private server home and running it with their own rules. At that point people might as well all be members of biker gangs just guarding their turf from rival gangs... except its all happening on a bunch of computers hooked up to the internet.
As for what the AoC developers were thinking... that will remain a mystery for the ages.
Ofcourse I still have faith. All their rmt stuff is all materialistic stuff you do not need, its all wants. Anyway, they are making a good mmo that many will like. You can tell from their forums that most of the people are excited about the game and can't wait to play, like me.
I can't wait either, but I will be watching this cash shop closely. We had a good discussion about this on the forums and I saw the best analogy used for why you shouldn't be able to buy items: Chess. Imagine if you have your opponent near checkmate and then they are able to buy their queen back. That changes the whole dynamic of the board and turns the game from a strategic one to one that is determined by who has the most money. If it's fluff that has no effect on the outcome of battle then I don't care. But if they start making it weapons,clothing or even buffs then I'll be outta there guick.
Ofcourse I still have faith. All their rmt stuff is all materialistic stuff you do not need, its all wants. Anyway, they are making a good mmo that many will like. You can tell from their forums that most of the people are excited about the game and can't wait to play, like me.
I can't wait either, but I will be watching this cash shop closely. We had a good discussion about this on the forums and I saw the best analogy used for why you shouldn't be able to buy items: Chess. Imagine if you have your opponent near checkmate and then they are able to buy their queen back. That changes the whole dynamic of the board and turns the game from a strategic one to one that is determined by who has the most money. If it's fluff that has no effect on the outcome of battle then I don't care. But if they start making it weapons,clothing or even buffs then I'll be outta there guick.
Agreed, as long as its items that have no impact on the game i dont care how much "fluff" they sell. I have my own ideas on the mentality of people who buy such items but thats another topic.
@Raltor. Its not 2000 anymore. Consoles have harddrives too so your whole comparison to the dreamcast is really outdated.
Who is RaltOr?
Consoles have hard drives and modems and several other new gadgets, sure. But if I put a washing machine in my car does it cease to be a car? No, its still a car, just with some extra piece of technology stuffed into it for no apparent reason.
Consoles have been held back in terms of progress by two major issues down through gaming history:
The first is Hardware, which as you pointed out is an area where they have begun to catch up. But somehow console creators still have to find a way to create a $500 machine that can compete with a $2000+ desktop computer and that is always going to be an uphill battle. Consoles will never be upgradeable the way a Desktop PC is and they will still always lag behind in terms of cutting edge technology, even if only by a few years.
However its the SECOND issue that holds back consoles much more than the first. And that issue is that the MINDSET of console owners has not greatly changed since the days of the Genesis and SNES. Console owners don't really want to WORK for the console. They want to go to the store, slap down some money and walk home with a game in their hand which they can play within five minues of getting home. They want a quick, easy, simple form of entertainment which doesn't require a great deal of thought. Console developers design their games to cater to this crowd of people...
And thats a big part of why STO isn't getting player crews and a lot of other features which people on this forum are asking for. The average PC gamer wants to play a very deep, complex game with lots of possible social options. But just try selling a game like that to the average drunken frat boy with an Xbox or your little sister with her Wii. Its the mindset of these casual players and their consoles that really holds back the creative aspects of game design.
(P.S. Just an FYI for you, the fact that consoles have hard drives doesn't make my example with the Dreamcast outdated, since the 1.5mb of memory I made refrence to was RAM, not a hard drive. Even todays modern consoles still have less RAM than the average desktop PC owned by a gamer, so the example is still relevant even nine years later.)
You are raltor or you not clever enough to realize i don't give a damn about getting your name correct you blind pc fanboy.
You do not need to pay $2000.00 to play pc games anymore. Once again welcome to 2009. Lets see how many good pc games with a lot of options have come out lately? Oh wait they were all either released on a console as well or in most cases like KOTOR and Mass Effect they were released on a console first. There is no different mindset anymore!! Gamers want games and most people who have a console also have a pc. Then there are fanboys like you who try to lie to yourself as to why your choice of video game medium is somehow superior to others and how you are the only unique little snow flake.
The removal of player crews has nothing to do with Xbox, or Nintendo, just has everything to do with cryptic. They claimed it would be too difficult to make it engaging for all the players involved in the crew and require too many mini game like mechanics. None of that is impacted on whether its on a console or not so stop fooling yourself. This is a purely developer choice on making the game more WoW like....you know those pc games.
Did a 3do and Neo geo touch you in your special spots or something? Cause all this blind console hate just shows how ignorant you are. Consoles are now just pc's with set, and often weaker specs, but is more stable and convenient to use. You might say this is "not working for the console" but guess what genius, you shouldn't have to work to get a game to run. If you think the pc's greatest quality is the achievement of installing a game and possibly needing to update drivers or whatever "work" you think is needed then you are playing games for the wrong reason.
I would just add that MMO's have lower minimum requirements than single player games. Bioshock and Mass Effect takes more to run than any MMO ive played and as said, it was released on console as well as PC.
Seriously, as long as it is just cosmetic I dont have a problem with it at all. I highly doubt you will be able to buy an "elite bridge officer", or some uber weapon, as that would unbalance the game and virtually destroy it, and Cryptic is smarter than that. Its just another way to gain revenue and that all cycles back into the game development and funding more content being added into the game. To me its a win win. Will I buy items? Sure,most likely Ill buy some cosmetic ship parts or uniforms. I get things I want Cryptic makes money that allows the game im playing to stay running, again, for me its a win win situation. Until I see it become a way to "buy your way to the top" (witch again, I HIGHLY DOUBT), Im not gonna panic or give it another thought. Most MMOS have some form of Micro Transactions (oh god I said the dreaded words!!), but just call it something else and people dont even give it a second thought until the dreaded words are spoken. In a increasingly competitive MMO market get use to seeing it ,as they need all they can get to keep the ship afloat and running with the high development costs of making and running an MMO.
Comments
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
STO uses the same platform as Champions Online and thus is available for consoles. Considering that both games use the same business models, having Atari as the owner and publisher, and are targeted for the mass market, I believe it is safe to say STO will be designed for use with consoles.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
so if they lower the monthy rate are either you going to buy stuff from the cash shop? if your answer is no, then why do you think you deserve to have a lower monthy fee because they are going to have a cash shop you never intended to use anyway.
It all depends on what is available and what is not. With a lower monthly subscription rate I would be incline to make some additional purchases, for example having one of those cool looking ships (just for the looks) or custom uniforms, heck maybe designer sunglasses. I don't mind since crafting as far as I know is not being implemented.
If the items available are combat impacting then I will not pay or play as then such a game becomes a matter of "how much are you willing to spend to win" type game. I don't believe in spending money should be considered as a form of skill of winning a fight (within a game).
The problem as I have said is that any MMO which has had item malls, cash shops or real money for game money has never stopped at just non-game impacting items. They will first start off with simple items that are really of no concern, and then start adding in game impacting items little at a time as people become accepting of them. Which then leads up to paying a full price subscription along with some additional money for must have combat items or advantages.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I lost faith in Cryptic being able to create an MMO game that will do the Star Trek franchise justice a long time ago.
RMT has nothing to do with my reasons.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Actually, I recall that in the past I heard rumors that Champions was being developed for consoles as well as PC, but there was no definitive anwser on which consoles or if it was actually going to happen. At this time it seems all efforts are being made to get the game released for PC first and maybe consoles later. Unless you have a link to some recently announced information in this reguard I'm going to believe what the official Champions Online FAQ says which is that the game is in development for PC... it doesn't mention consoles.
And the Star Trek Online FAQ says exactly the same thing. So I think its safe to assume the same thing.
That doesn't mean I doubt that they WANT to release this game for consoles. All game developers would probably be willing to push their own mother down a flight of stairs for a dollar, so it doesn't shock me that they would sell out their own game and fanbase to consoles for an extra dollar too. But think about how many MMOs have actually made it to consoles so far. I remember that not so long ago the Age of Conan developers wanted to release their game for both PC and console but the PC release went so badly that the console release was delayed. How did all of that turn out I wonder? I have to hold out some hope that something similar will happen with Champions and STO as well, they will be so busy with the PC version of the game that they may never get around to the console version.
(P.S. I hate Atari. Those jackasses insisted on putting SecuROM into Neverwinter Nights 2 and its various expansion packs.)
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
And that's the line I follow, if micro-transactions are used then the monthly subscription would need to be lowered. But this is unlikely to be the case. I do suspect $15/mo with micro-transactions included because people are willing to accept it.
How these mainstream MMO's are going are similar to the history Cable Television. First there Cable Television which had a monthly subscription. Then came in the commercials for certain channels... then to all channels. Originally the idea of Cable Television with a subscription plan was to avoid the commercials of the Network Channels. Now there are watermark logos and pop-up ads (sometimes taking 20% of the screen) for shows, and audio gain boosting. People get use to it and accept it, then something else gets tacked on. I think what will be next is an ad bar at the bottom similar from those running headline news 'tickers' on news channels.
While non-game impacting items may seem fine at first, additional items will be added in due time. It has happened with all games that have micro-transactions. No combat advantages can be bought, but you can buy a +20% XP Bonus Buff since it does not directly impact combat. Eventually there may be other things... How about seeing a "Eat at Chili's" sign at a Starbase? Or a "Ford Tough Trucks" ad as a loading screen? All that with a $15/mo rate.
If I 'm playing a MMO like APB or something like that, where the game is taking place in the present, I would probably tolerate seeing a billboard or two in the game with ads on them, only because it actually adds to immersion and doesn't detract from it.
Now, if I'm playing SW:TOR or STO or some traditional fantasy MMO, I would immediately log out and cancel. I get bombarded by ads enough in every other aspect of life...I will not tolerate ads in a game like this.
AoC ruined multi-platform MMOs for me. It was my first and last. I'll never play another one.
Just because they may have scrapped plans for actually making this for consoles, doesn't mean the damage hasn't been done. This game may very well end up suffering the same way AoC did, even though the console port is pretty much scrapped for it. I'm talking small, linear zones, ridiculous use of instancing, limiting the number of players/object on screen at an artificially low number, crappy controls/UI, and other compromises made because of wanting it to work with the limitations of today's consoles.
I sat in a Champions Online talk and demonstration last year. Cryptic was designing Champions Online to be used for both PC and Console, so much so of having a Help Page showing how the console controller works. But you got me interested in checking on Champions again. I am surprised to find that the console side of things appears to be either delayed or canceled; even the FAQ no longer lists consoles.
So I guess there is some technological problems with the platform. You may be right that STO may not be ported for consoles... or even designed to work with consoles (in terms of game play and UI).
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
I completely agree.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
In reply to Dracus and Darth_Osor:
Maybe the reason why the Champions developers are no longer promoting a console version of the game is because of the failure of AoC and a massive backlash aginst Funcom for that failure. Perhaps these events have given other MMO developers in the industry a reason to pause and rethink their strategy in reguards to console development. Hopefully this will translate into a decision to keep STO as a PC only title (I noticed they have already stated there will be no MAC or Linux version) and thus produce a better/more focused game as a result. I kinda doubt it, but its atleast a small shred of hope.
And I agree completely with what Darth Osor said about the way PC games must be dumbed down on a technological level in order to make them functional on a console system. And this isn't just a recent issue with the current generation of consoles either. Even ten years or more ago this issue existed where PC games were difficult if not impossible to port to a console and console games ported to PC often seemed too simplistic when compared to their PC exclusive counterparts.
In fact, I used to have a favorite quote about this issue. There was this game developer named "Nick Herres" back in 2000 who worked for "Infogrames" (a company that has since been bought out by Atari of all people) while they were in the process of porting the PC version of Unreal Tournament to the Sega Dreamcast. Nick was in charge of modifing maps from the PC version to function on the Dreamcast version. When he explained how this was done he said the goal was to make the maps "1.5mb or less in order to fit in the memory of the DC" and it was obvious that his job was to strip the maps of all excess detail in order to make them small enough for the DC to handle them. This has always been one of my favorite examples of how inferior a console system is to a desktop PC.
I'm not a huge fan of Champions Online in the first place so I could truly care less what will become of that game. But STO needs to avoid the trap of console development like the plague. You cannot simulate a vast galaxy in a series of small boxes and it won't feel like a proper Star Trek game if the player is constantly crashing their ship into invisible walls every time they get too far away from a planet or starbase. The developers of this game should look to EvE Online when seeking inspiration for how large their universe needs to be. Using a similar system to EvE would work very well in my opinon, just add in the ability to warp between systems in place of always having to use gates. But a galaxy of that size would be impossible on a console.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
@Raltor. Its not 2000 anymore. Consoles have harddrives too so your whole comparison to the dreamcast is really outdated.
I agree that cash shops are bad in games such as Requim where its a neccesity for leveling but that really hasn't been the case in Champions so far. If you don't want a Witchcraft action figure well then don't buy one.
Who is RaltOr?
Consoles have hard drives and modems and several other new gadgets, sure. But if I put a washing machine in my car does it cease to be a car? No, its still a car, just with some extra piece of technology stuffed into it for no apparent reason.
Consoles have been held back in terms of progress by two major issues down through gaming history:
The first is Hardware, which as you pointed out is an area where they have begun to catch up. But somehow console creators still have to find a way to create a $500 machine that can compete with a $2000+ desktop computer and that is always going to be an uphill battle. Consoles will never be upgradeable the way a Desktop PC is and they will still always lag behind in terms of cutting edge technology, even if only by a few years.
However its the SECOND issue that holds back consoles much more than the first. And that issue is that the MINDSET of console owners has not greatly changed since the days of the Genesis and SNES. Console owners don't really want to WORK for the console. They want to go to the store, slap down some money and walk home with a game in their hand which they can play within five minues of getting home. They want a quick, easy, simple form of entertainment which doesn't require a great deal of thought. Console developers design their games to cater to this crowd of people...
And thats a big part of why STO isn't getting player crews and a lot of other features which people on this forum are asking for. The average PC gamer wants to play a very deep, complex game with lots of possible social options. But just try selling a game like that to the average drunken frat boy with an Xbox or your little sister with her Wii. Its the mindset of these casual players and their consoles that really holds back the creative aspects of game design.
(P.S. Just an FYI for you, the fact that consoles have hard drives doesn't make my example with the Dreamcast outdated, since the 1.5mb of memory I made refrence to was RAM, not a hard drive. Even todays modern consoles still have less RAM than the average desktop PC owned by a gamer, so the example is still relevant even nine years later.)
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
Bill Roper dropped the soap on a rope, hes just waiting for you to bend over and pick it up. That sums up the kind of business model Cryptic is using.
I think consumers, like me, will eventually get fed up. Just like people are fed up with insurance, banks and credit cards. The result is going to be a Tea Party of gamers. The IT department I work in has a bit of down time. We can all code, we know artists ... the immediate future is cash shops and game taxation without representation. The not too distant future is a game you can download from my cloud server and play with your friends for free or a donation, whichever you choose.
It will be MUDs with Graphics.
AND ... if BIOWARE was intelligent, they'd be hard at work on a Neverwinter Nights Server toolset, to sell for $150 that would let you install a dedicated NWN server, connect up to 500 (or more) people, build cities and towns, change skills, classes, etc ... easily ... and then sell the client for $50. Offer professional expansions that include things like monsters, settings, spell effects, upgraded base graphics, updated graphic engines ... etc ..
It would be like the CounterStrike of MMOs. Crazy popular WELL beyond the typical lifetime of a game. Guess what their maintenance costs would be too ... ZERO ... but there would be thousands of custom servers out there within six weeks of release. You could get pay to play, free to play, cash shops, hard core, casual, PvP, PvE, RvR ... you could find the EXACT game you wanted and play with people that shared a majority of your opinions ...
Get really crazy and make the client a phone app too (but that's a whole different crazy idea)
It's going to be AWESOME and HUGE ....
So don't be too disheartened by the genre just yet ...
From my time spent playing MUDs back in the day I noticed one major problem which plagued nearly all of them: Their creators treated them as their own personal playground and were quick with the ban hammer any time someone asked for changes/improvements.
I've also seen this problem more recently with small browser based games like Zelderex Online. The owner and sole programmer of that game is just one guy who is only about 20 years old. But he charges five dollars for a subscription fee (you can also play for "free" but 90% of the game is locked out while paying users with all the bells and whistles can still attack you at any time) plus he let his ultra obnoxious wife be an administrator in the game, a power she abused at every oppertunity.
As much as I hate to admit it... capitalism often is the lesser of two evils. I just wish the gaming industry would go back to being just for nerds so the games would actually have to meet a certain level of quality and depth in order to sell. I blame the downfall of the industry on the uneducated Xbox and Wii onwers out there who think a "game" is anything with explosions or something to play at a party when you are too drunk to see straight.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
You're certainly right Ralter, there are some very bad MUDs out there. But its not like having some douche stick their toe in your MMO and rush it, or change it, or nerf it ...
You'd buy the client and that'd be it. If you didn't like your current game, change servers.
If my idea was SWG, then you could find a pre-NGE server somewhere.
If my idea was Warhammer Online, you could find a server with a third faction, or fourth, or NO factions and every race was for itself.
And, I just thought of this, but one of the accidental side effects would be that there would be no centralized economy. Every server would have to have a gold farmer in order to be profitable selling gold for that game. And maybe admins would just let their servers go ... but maybe someone would actually read the logs where X4wd73s sold a tree root to Bob the Hack for 100mil gold.
Just as a comparison ... there are 17000 servers available for Call of Duty 4. Imagine if there were 17k servers, most with the same rules, but some with awesome (or crappy) changes ... that you could move to whenever the game you were playing starts moving in a direction you don't agree with.
But again: How many of those servers are going to be run by the kid I used to beat up back in high school who is now getting his revenge by becoming the internet policeman of his own private virtual world?
These sorts of ideas sound great on paper but often fail because the average person can't handle that kind of power and responsibility.
All those evil executives that are coming up with ideas like cash shops and EULAs that give them the right to erase your hard drive were probably just like us once... until someone gave them an ounce of power over another person and it was all down hill from there.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
I don't know ... how many kids did you beat up, exactly? hehe
Seriously though, they won't ALL be bad. And if the admin is prick enough, he'll eventually be lording it over no-one because all his players will be on my server. And it's not like you'd have to guy buy a new game, you've already bought the game. So you'd just go to the "Internet Servers" option in your menu and pick one at random. It would be like having every fantasy MMO available for a one time purchase of $50 and then (maybe) some kind of monthly fee.
And it may be a niche market. But development and maintenance would, compared to a modern MMO, be effectively zero.
Random thought ... is it possible that execs actually drive people away from games intentionally so they'll buy new boxes? AoC for example sold 1mil copies but went down to a tiny fraction of that in real subs in less than six months, which means, for that game, they biggest percentage of expenditure for the majority of their players was on the initial purchase ... hmmm ...
So, for AoC, had they JUST released the base world and the tools used to MOD it, they actually would've made more money.
Well, sure, if the admin of the server you are on is a jerk you can always leave. Thats pretty much always the theory though, right? Even if you don't like the guys who develop one MMO or don't like the moderators on a certain forum you can always go elsewhere. But that doesn't mean that things are going to be BETTER anywhere else. More often than not you simply run into the same problems time and time again no matter where you go.
See, my thing is that I believe anyone who gets put into a position where they can lord over their own personal virtual world will eventually turn into a jerk, even you and even me. I think that is simply a sad fact of human nature. I think its the reason why so many game developers are self-serving assholes who won't listen to their customers. And I think if we gave average joe off the street the chance to run his own private MMO it would simply happen to him too.
In the long term people would probably figure out who the biggest assholes were and try to gravitate towards servers which were atleast somewhat to their liking. But then we end up in a situation where people are just breaking themselves down into small groups with each one calling their own private server home and running it with their own rules. At that point people might as well all be members of biker gangs just guarding their turf from rival gangs... except its all happening on a bunch of computers hooked up to the internet.
As for what the AoC developers were thinking... that will remain a mystery for the ages.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
I can't wait either, but I will be watching this cash shop closely. We had a good discussion about this on the forums and I saw the best analogy used for why you shouldn't be able to buy items: Chess. Imagine if you have your opponent near checkmate and then they are able to buy their queen back. That changes the whole dynamic of the board and turns the game from a strategic one to one that is determined by who has the most money. If it's fluff that has no effect on the outcome of battle then I don't care. But if they start making it weapons,clothing or even buffs then I'll be outta there guick.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I can't wait either, but I will be watching this cash shop closely. We had a good discussion about this on the forums and I saw the best analogy used for why you shouldn't be able to buy items: Chess. Imagine if you have your opponent near checkmate and then they are able to buy their queen back. That changes the whole dynamic of the board and turns the game from a strategic one to one that is determined by who has the most money. If it's fluff that has no effect on the outcome of battle then I don't care. But if they start making it weapons,clothing or even buffs then I'll be outta there guick.
Agreed, as long as its items that have no impact on the game i dont care how much "fluff" they sell. I have my own ideas on the mentality of people who buy such items but thats another topic.
Who is RaltOr?
Consoles have hard drives and modems and several other new gadgets, sure. But if I put a washing machine in my car does it cease to be a car? No, its still a car, just with some extra piece of technology stuffed into it for no apparent reason.
Consoles have been held back in terms of progress by two major issues down through gaming history:
The first is Hardware, which as you pointed out is an area where they have begun to catch up. But somehow console creators still have to find a way to create a $500 machine that can compete with a $2000+ desktop computer and that is always going to be an uphill battle. Consoles will never be upgradeable the way a Desktop PC is and they will still always lag behind in terms of cutting edge technology, even if only by a few years.
However its the SECOND issue that holds back consoles much more than the first. And that issue is that the MINDSET of console owners has not greatly changed since the days of the Genesis and SNES. Console owners don't really want to WORK for the console. They want to go to the store, slap down some money and walk home with a game in their hand which they can play within five minues of getting home. They want a quick, easy, simple form of entertainment which doesn't require a great deal of thought. Console developers design their games to cater to this crowd of people...
And thats a big part of why STO isn't getting player crews and a lot of other features which people on this forum are asking for. The average PC gamer wants to play a very deep, complex game with lots of possible social options. But just try selling a game like that to the average drunken frat boy with an Xbox or your little sister with her Wii. Its the mindset of these casual players and their consoles that really holds back the creative aspects of game design.
(P.S. Just an FYI for you, the fact that consoles have hard drives doesn't make my example with the Dreamcast outdated, since the 1.5mb of memory I made refrence to was RAM, not a hard drive. Even todays modern consoles still have less RAM than the average desktop PC owned by a gamer, so the example is still relevant even nine years later.)
You are raltor or you not clever enough to realize i don't give a damn about getting your name correct you blind pc fanboy.
You do not need to pay $2000.00 to play pc games anymore. Once again welcome to 2009. Lets see how many good pc games with a lot of options have come out lately? Oh wait they were all either released on a console as well or in most cases like KOTOR and Mass Effect they were released on a console first. There is no different mindset anymore!! Gamers want games and most people who have a console also have a pc. Then there are fanboys like you who try to lie to yourself as to why your choice of video game medium is somehow superior to others and how you are the only unique little snow flake.
The removal of player crews has nothing to do with Xbox, or Nintendo, just has everything to do with cryptic. They claimed it would be too difficult to make it engaging for all the players involved in the crew and require too many mini game like mechanics. None of that is impacted on whether its on a console or not so stop fooling yourself. This is a purely developer choice on making the game more WoW like....you know those pc games.
Did a 3do and Neo geo touch you in your special spots or something? Cause all this blind console hate just shows how ignorant you are. Consoles are now just pc's with set, and often weaker specs, but is more stable and convenient to use. You might say this is "not working for the console" but guess what genius, you shouldn't have to work to get a game to run. If you think the pc's greatest quality is the achievement of installing a game and possibly needing to update drivers or whatever "work" you think is needed then you are playing games for the wrong reason.
I would just add that MMO's have lower minimum requirements than single player games. Bioshock and Mass Effect takes more to run than any MMO ive played and as said, it was released on console as well as PC.
Seriously, as long as it is just cosmetic I dont have a problem with it at all. I highly doubt you will be able to buy an "elite bridge officer", or some uber weapon, as that would unbalance the game and virtually destroy it, and Cryptic is smarter than that. Its just another way to gain revenue and that all cycles back into the game development and funding more content being added into the game. To me its a win win. Will I buy items? Sure,most likely Ill buy some cosmetic ship parts or uniforms. I get things I want Cryptic makes money that allows the game im playing to stay running, again, for me its a win win situation. Until I see it become a way to "buy your way to the top" (witch again, I HIGHLY DOUBT), Im not gonna panic or give it another thought. Most MMOS have some form of Micro Transactions (oh god I said the dreaded words!!), but just call it something else and people dont even give it a second thought until the dreaded words are spoken. In a increasingly competitive MMO market get use to seeing it ,as they need all they can get to keep the ship afloat and running with the high development costs of making and running an MMO.