Actually, I find that approach more honest. You know from the start where you're getting yourself into.
Unfortunately, that doesn't change the feeling this move gives me. Specifically, that they don't think the game will do well subscription wise, so they had to compliment subscriptions with RMT to compensate. Unfortunately, those poor souls who will end up playing the game, will pay more for such a privilege than if they were playing an actual AAA title P2P game.
All his examples do nothing about the actually issue. The WoW example also doesn't hold up. No one cares if you transfer your character... but if someone is running around and looking cooler than me because they paid more. That's not right and makes the whole game feel very pointless to me. Why try when I can buy? And cosmetic or not... it's still an important part to any MMO. I'm very against the idea. Any thing available in the store could be added at launch or added in an expansion. Doing things like transfer a character, extra character slots are thing that are done on the players end and do not effect the look/feel/play of the actual game. It also bothers me because they sound very greedy, and are trying to be sneeky by having a store at launch. What's the point of a store *at launch* all the stuff is already created and in the game... so it should be available. I could understand a game store once the game is getting older ect... but at launch, is just in bad taste.
In WoW I paid hundreds of dollars for the card game. I got a cool tabard that no one else in my guild had it. How does that not hold up? I spent real money and got items that weren't available otherwise. The Saltwater Snapjaw is a 60% speed mount. That means its has a "Game Effect". Those things sells for $200 and you can't get them from within the game by any means at all. At least Cryptic is promising that game effecting items will be available from within the game. That is quite a bit better that WoW. I think its safe to assume that a game effecting item wouldn't cost $200 on the company's MT shop.
Here is another way to think of it. From a business standpoint the MT sales revenue will always be more than the cost to develop the items that they sell. Otherwise it would be a failed business and they would probably shut down the whole MT shop. That is just common sense for any business. Profits always exceed costs.
So if that is the case then they technically aren't using subscription revenue to put things on the MT shop. That what many of you are worried about. You're worried that they will take your sub money, develop things with that money, then sell them back to you. From a business standpoint the MT shop would never work like that without being a total failure.
This guarantees one thing. The MT shop will only be adding things to the game that would not otherwise be available with a purely sub based game. As long as a subscriber is never put into a situation where they need a MT item to progress in the game then it essentially expands the game for free.
But honestly, I think you're all jumping the gun. There aren't many people complaining about how MT's broke CoX or WoW. This is no different.
WoW has no MT store. CoX added one years after. Selling name changes and server moves is not a MT store.
Here is a store where I can spend real money to receive items that I can use in World of Warcraft. Now unless you're wanting to redefine what words like 'transaction' and 'store' mean then by every definition of the word, WoW has a MT store.
And saying that name changes is not a MT doesn't make it true. You make a one time monetary transaction to receive a service. That is most definitely a micro-transaction.
I'll be happy if CO features such a "RMT", but alas, from the looks of it it won't. Here's the main difference, if you're too much blinded by Roper's marketing spin to see it:
Blizzard is offering a card game based in the same universe as WoW. The two (the card game and the MMO) are independent entities, aka, you can play one without touching the other. Just like you can play the D&D card game and the DDO. The only crossover is that you have a slight chance to get a vanity pet or vanity pet feature in WoW via the card game. You, however, are definitely not enforced or enticed to play the card game in order to gain items in WoW.
CO will most likely feature an in-game application, where you will be able to purchase various items, from costumes to powers to basically anything else (they are purposely vague about it).
I want to see somebody make an argument about Blizzard having an RMT because they sell T-shirts and hats. That would also be as hilarious as the claim that the card game is RMT as well.
I'll be happy if CO features such a "RMT", but alas, from the looks of it it won't. Here's the main difference, if you're too much blinded by Roper's marketing spin to see it:
Blizzard is offering a card game based in the same universe as WoW. The two (the card game and the MMO) are independent entities, aka, you can play one without touching the other. Just like you can play the D&D card game and the DDO. The only crossover is that you have a slight chance to get a vanity pet or vanity pet feature in WoW via the card game. You, however, are definitely not enforced or enticed to play the card game in order to gain items in WoW.
CO will most likely feature an in-game application, where you will be able to purchase various items, from costumes to powers to basically anything else (they are purposely vague about it).
I hope you can see the difference.
So basically, If CO creates a card game with loot cards for costumes and powers that can't be obtain in the actual video game, then it is not MT.
The only crossover is that you have a slight chance to get a vanity pet or vanity pet feature in WoW via the card game. That is exactly the point. The crossover is what makes the card game have an effect on the real game. You aren't slightly pregnant or slightly dead. You either are or you aren't. The card game has a direct effect on the MMOG. There is simply no denying it. The difference between the WoW TCG and a MT store is superficial at best. The disguise is not that hard to see through.
Its also not a slight chance to get a vanity item. Its a slight chance to get a game effecting item. The UDE points accrued by the card game are not random. If you buy X amount of card, you get Y amount of points that can be used to buy items for the MMOG. You are conveniently overlooking the UDE points store full of MMOG items.
You, however, are definitely not enforced or enticed to play the card game in order to gain items in WoW. That is simply not true. The Loot Cards and UDE points is probably the biggest selling point of the card game. There is also a big advertised link on the WoW home page that wants to sell you a Character Re-Customization microtransaction for $15.00.
I can see that nothing would make you see something as obvious as the nose on your own face.
Blizzard is offering a card game based in the same universe as WoW. The two (the card game and the MMO) are independent entities, aka, you can play one without touching the other. Just like you can play the D&D card game and the DDO.
independence of two objects is defined by neither one having any influence at all on the other one, clearly this is not the case with wow and their cardgame. ddo on the other hand has no influence on you playing and/or buying any traditional d&d stuff, neither does the playing/buying of d&d have any influence on ddo. both games are based on a similar ruleset, but they are independent.
this is simply very sad trolling, there isn't even a straw left to grasp at.
You should look up the definition on trolling. Not everyone that has a different opinion than yours is a troll.
I look the card game from the perspective that I will try to describe. When you strap a know IP on something, it has the tendency to market better, than if it was purely original IP, especially on the crowd of unawares. This principle is very prevailing in the MMO market as well, see how many of them are based on already established IPs (including CO, based on Champions IP, not as known as the original Marvel IP of course).
D&D started as a paperback, then they started a card game and at some point they delved into the MMO market. There is some crossover between all the products, from the obvious (the IP) to booster packs etc sold via the MMO (original packaging) etc. You may consider booster packs bundled with the MMO as an RMT for the card game, I don't. Yes, it's a marketing trick to introduce people to the card game, but that's that.
Blizzard started with the MMO product. Then they made enough of a name for themselves, that the card game was instantly recognised. So people not in the MMO market but interested in the card games would grab a pack. The possibility of the vanity pet was just a marketing hook to get those people to move from the card game into the MMO, nothing more. Yes, some achievement burnouts may have spend money on cards for the possibility of vanity pets, but I consider those exception, not the norm.
Besides, how much as you try to spin it, I still don't see a straight RMT as the ones SOE has introduced and as Cryptic is now planning to introduce. In other words, a straight, give me money to give you items monetary possibility. I was really interested about this game, but since they plan on becoming worse penny pinchers than SOE, I will have to pass.
All his examples do nothing about the actually issue. The WoW example also doesn't hold up. No one cares if you transfer your character... but if someone is running around and looking cooler than me because they paid more. That's not right and makes the whole game feel very pointless to me. Why try when I can buy? And cosmetic or not... it's still an important part to any MMO. I'm very against the idea. Any thing available in the store could be added at launch or added in an expansion. Doing things like transfer a character, extra character slots are thing that are done on the players end and do not effect the look/feel/play of the actual game. It also bothers me because they sound very greedy, and are trying to be sneeky by having a store at launch. What's the point of a store *at launch* all the stuff is already created and in the game... so it should be available. I could understand a game store once the game is getting older ect... but at launch, is just in bad taste.
Ok so if someone is running around looking cooler than me because he bought some cosmetic stuff I do not even need is fine by me. As long as it does not efftect gameplay which has been clearly stated it will not then whats the problem ? I forgot through that everyone in the world today has to have what everyone else has even if they can't afford it. People aren't greedy and materialistic either right ? Nahhh no way!
The possibility of the vanity pet was just a marketing hook to get those people to move from the card game into the MMO, nothing more. Yes, some achievement burnouts may have spend money on cards for the possibility of vanity pets, but I consider those exception, not the norm.
A bit off topic but ... hilarious video. I've never seen that chicken pet ingame, although I've known quite a few achievement burnouts.
My original question stands, by the way. You can't buy this via ingame or out of game RMT by Blizzard (unless you consider the ebay link part of Blizzard's RMT scheme).
Even if the items in the item shop are vanity items, the question everyone should be asking is WHY? If I bought the box, and I am paying a monthly subscription, why do I have to pay extra for "fun" items? Why are they not included with the fee I am already paying? It is greed, pure and simple.
It amazes me that people actually go along with this crap. Free to play MMO's need a cash shop because it is their only income. Subscription MMOs make money off of the monthly fee. Combining the two, in ANY way, is nothing but pure greed. The sheeple can get milked for every dime they have if they want, I know I won't be.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
A bit off topic but ... hilarious video. I've never seen that chicken pet ingame, although I've known quite a few achievement burnouts. My original question stands, by the way. You can't buy this via ingame or out of game RMT by Blizzard (unless you consider the ebay link part of Blizzard's RMT scheme).
Its not a chicken pet. Its an epic mount that has an in game effect and can only be attained by Real Money Transactions.
Yes, their RMT shop is run by Upper Deck. It smells like a duck and quacks like a duck. It must be a duck. The Mazda dealership across the street from me right now is owned by a guy name Jim Ellis. Since its not owned by Mazda does that mean its not a Mazda dealer?
That the chicken mount I linked can be bought from the Upper Deck store. Taking into account the odds of getting the loot card puts its store value at nearly $800.00. There are also UDE points that are neither random nor sold in any kind of aftermarket, so many of WoW's MT shop items have a fixed value.
The link you provided is just a collection of ebay transactions. I don't see how ebay is affiliated with Blizzard. Aren't we stretching the RMT boundaries a bit too thin, in order to justify the double subscription model Cryptic is adamant to shove down our throats?
What are the UDE Points / Trade Good cards used for?
Each pack contains a UDE Points/Trade Good card. UDE Points can be redeemed for in-game items and other items from the UDE Points Store. After you’ve redeemed the code, you’ll also be able to save up the cards to use in the Crafting Redemption Program!
You should look up the definition on trolling. Not everyone that has a different opinion than yours is a troll. I look the card game from the perspective that I will try to describe. When you strap a know IP on something, it has the tendency to market better, than if it was purely original IP, especially on the crowd of unawares. This principle is very prevailing in the MMO market as well, see how many of them are based on already established IPs (including CO, based on Champions IP, not as known as the original Marvel IP of course). D&D started as a paperback, then they started a card game and at some point they delved into the MMO market. There is some crossover between all the products, from the obvious (the IP) to booster packs etc sold via the MMO (original packaging) etc. You may consider booster packs bundled with the MMO as an RMT for the card game, I don't. Yes, it's a marketing trick to introduce people to the card game, but that's that. Blizzard started with the MMO product. Then they made enough of a name for themselves, that the card game was instantly recognised. So people not in the MMO market but interested in the card games would grab a pack. The possibility of the vanity pet was just a marketing hook to get those people to move from the card game into the MMO, nothing more. Yes, some achievement burnouts may have spend money on cards for the possibility of vanity pets, but I consider those exception, not the norm.
Besides, how much as you try to spin it, I still don't see a straight RMT as the ones SOE has introduced and as Cryptic is now planning to introduce. In other words, a straight, give me money to give you items monetary possibility. I was really interested about this game, but since they plan on becoming worse penny pinchers than SOE, I will have to pass.
Whatever excuse there is a simple fact, there are items in wow that can only be obtain by buying something outside the de subscription, in other words, money for item. That's the definition of MT. If you want to argue that there is not explicit shop or is a small quantity of items, is fine but it is still MT.
What Roper was trying to explain(my guessing) is that even in games that are not normally considered as using MT you can find them if you look close enough. And yes, he was dodging getting too much into detail, that usually happen in mmos because you dont want to say something that you might later have to change (although Blizzard said no pve->pvp transfers or factions changes ::P).
I can understand your concerns about MT in CO, I have mine too, but it is more about the lack of information that usually leads to speculation.
Even if the items in the item shop are vanity items, the question everyone should be asking is WHY? If I bought the box, and I am paying a monthly subscription, why do I have to pay extra for "fun" items? Why are they not included with the fee I am already paying? It is greed, pure and simple. It amazes me that people actually go along with this crap. Free to play MMO's need a cash shop because it is their only income. Subscription MMOs make money off of the monthly fee. Combining the two, in ANY way, is nothing but pure greed. The sheeple can get milked for every dime they have if they want, I know I won't be.
Chances are you will not need to buy anything from the shop except extra character slots, item storage, name changes and character makeovers if you want. Some just blow things way our of proportion and do not even read before they go off the deep end.
SaintViktor, if that was indeed the case, why would they need to introduce "cryptic bucks"? The services you mentioned are usually handled directly through credit card payments. This extra currency implies that it will not be limited to account management, but also in-game content.
Even if the items in the item shop are vanity items, the question everyone should be asking is WHY? If I bought the box, and I am paying a monthly subscription, why do I have to pay extra for "fun" items? Why are they not included with the fee I am already paying? It is greed, pure and simple. It amazes me that people actually go along with this crap. Free to play MMO's need a cash shop because it is their only income. Subscription MMOs make money off of the monthly fee. Combining the two, in ANY way, is nothing but pure greed. The sheeple can get milked for every dime they have if they want, I know I won't be.
Chances are you will not need to buy anything from the shop except extra character slots, item storage, name changes and character makeovers if you want. Some just blow things way our of proportion and do not even read before they go off the deep end.
Did you read the part where he said vanity items WILL be in the cash shop? Where "fun" cosmetic items WILL be in the cash shop? So my statement still stands. WHY should I have to pay for these items if I am already paying a monthly subscription? It is 100% pure greed, plain and simple. The items should be included with my subscription.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Whatever excuse there is a simple fact, there are items in wow that can only be obtain by buying something outside the de subscription, in other words, money for item. That's the definition of MT. If you want to argue that there is not explicit shop or is a small quantity of items, is fine but it is still MT.
I don't see those as MTs tho.
The in-game stuff are meant to extras... a bonus, on top of getting the cards or going to blizzcon.
SaintViktor, if that was indeed the case, why would they need to introduce "cryptic bucks"? The services you mentioned are usually handled directly through credit card payments. This extra currency implies that it will not be limited to account management, but also in-game content.
We know for sure that there are going to be costume pieces similar to what is available in City of Heroes and their MT shop.
The "Cryptic Bucks" doesn't really imply anything though. If I buy a Chick Fila gift card does that imply that I can start buying underwear from Chick Fila? There is really no relationship between the currency and the product.
Comments
Actually, I find that approach more honest. You know from the start where you're getting yourself into.
Unfortunately, that doesn't change the feeling this move gives me. Specifically, that they don't think the game will do well subscription wise, so they had to compliment subscriptions with RMT to compensate. Unfortunately, those poor souls who will end up playing the game, will pay more for such a privilege than if they were playing an actual AAA title P2P game.
In WoW I paid hundreds of dollars for the card game. I got a cool tabard that no one else in my guild had it. How does that not hold up? I spent real money and got items that weren't available otherwise. The Saltwater Snapjaw is a 60% speed mount. That means its has a "Game Effect". Those things sells for $200 and you can't get them from within the game by any means at all. At least Cryptic is promising that game effecting items will be available from within the game. That is quite a bit better that WoW. I think its safe to assume that a game effecting item wouldn't cost $200 on the company's MT shop.
Here is another way to think of it. From a business standpoint the MT sales revenue will always be more than the cost to develop the items that they sell. Otherwise it would be a failed business and they would probably shut down the whole MT shop. That is just common sense for any business. Profits always exceed costs.
So if that is the case then they technically aren't using subscription revenue to put things on the MT shop. That what many of you are worried about. You're worried that they will take your sub money, develop things with that money, then sell them back to you. From a business standpoint the MT shop would never work like that without being a total failure.
This guarantees one thing. The MT shop will only be adding things to the game that would not otherwise be available with a purely sub based game. As long as a subscriber is never put into a situation where they need a MT item to progress in the game then it essentially expands the game for free.
But honestly, I think you're all jumping the gun. There aren't many people complaining about how MT's broke CoX or WoW. This is no different.
WoW has no MT store. CoX added one years after. Selling name changes and server moves is not a MT store.
Here is a store where I can spend real money to receive items that I can use in World of Warcraft. Now unless you're wanting to redefine what words like 'transaction' and 'store' mean then by every definition of the word, WoW has a MT store.
And saying that name changes is not a MT doesn't make it true. You make a one time monetary transaction to receive a service. That is most definitely a micro-transaction.
That's not a MT store, no matter how many times you repeat it.
LOL!
I'll be happy if CO features such a "RMT", but alas, from the looks of it it won't. Here's the main difference, if you're too much blinded by Roper's marketing spin to see it:
I hope you can see the difference.
I want to see somebody make an argument about Blizzard having an RMT because they sell T-shirts and hats. That would also be as hilarious as the claim that the card game is RMT as well.
So basically, If CO creates a card game with loot cards for costumes and powers that can't be obtain in the actual video game, then it is not MT.
I can see that nothing would make you see something as obvious as the nose on your own face.
independence of two objects is defined by neither one having any influence at all on the other one, clearly this is not the case with wow and their cardgame. ddo on the other hand has no influence on you playing and/or buying any traditional d&d stuff, neither does the playing/buying of d&d have any influence on ddo. both games are based on a similar ruleset, but they are independent.
this is simply very sad trolling, there isn't even a straw left to grasp at.
You should look up the definition on trolling. Not everyone that has a different opinion than yours is a troll.
I look the card game from the perspective that I will try to describe. When you strap a know IP on something, it has the tendency to market better, than if it was purely original IP, especially on the crowd of unawares. This principle is very prevailing in the MMO market as well, see how many of them are based on already established IPs (including CO, based on Champions IP, not as known as the original Marvel IP of course).
D&D started as a paperback, then they started a card game and at some point they delved into the MMO market. There is some crossover between all the products, from the obvious (the IP) to booster packs etc sold via the MMO (original packaging) etc. You may consider booster packs bundled with the MMO as an RMT for the card game, I don't. Yes, it's a marketing trick to introduce people to the card game, but that's that.
Blizzard started with the MMO product. Then they made enough of a name for themselves, that the card game was instantly recognised. So people not in the MMO market but interested in the card games would grab a pack. The possibility of the vanity pet was just a marketing hook to get those people to move from the card game into the MMO, nothing more. Yes, some achievement burnouts may have spend money on cards for the possibility of vanity pets, but I consider those exception, not the norm.
Besides, how much as you try to spin it, I still don't see a straight RMT as the ones SOE has introduced and as Cryptic is now planning to introduce. In other words, a straight, give me money to give you items monetary possibility. I was really interested about this game, but since they plan on becoming worse penny pinchers than SOE, I will have to pass.
Ok so if someone is running around looking cooler than me because he bought some cosmetic stuff I do not even need is fine by me. As long as it does not efftect gameplay which has been clearly stated it will not then whats the problem ? I forgot through that everyone in the world today has to have what everyone else has even if they can't afford it. People aren't greedy and materialistic either right ? Nahhh no way!
Since when is an epic mount a vanity pet?
A bit off topic but ... hilarious video. I've never seen that chicken pet ingame, although I've known quite a few achievement burnouts.
My original question stands, by the way. You can't buy this via ingame or out of game RMT by Blizzard (unless you consider the ebay link part of Blizzard's RMT scheme).
Even if the items in the item shop are vanity items, the question everyone should be asking is WHY? If I bought the box, and I am paying a monthly subscription, why do I have to pay extra for "fun" items? Why are they not included with the fee I am already paying? It is greed, pure and simple.
It amazes me that people actually go along with this crap. Free to play MMO's need a cash shop because it is their only income. Subscription MMOs make money off of the monthly fee. Combining the two, in ANY way, is nothing but pure greed. The sheeple can get milked for every dime they have if they want, I know I won't be.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Its not a chicken pet. Its an epic mount that has an in game effect and can only be attained by Real Money Transactions.
Yes, their RMT shop is run by Upper Deck. It smells like a duck and quacks like a duck. It must be a duck. The Mazda dealership across the street from me right now is owned by a guy name Jim Ellis. Since its not owned by Mazda does that mean its not a Mazda dealer?
That the chicken mount I linked can be bought from the Upper Deck store. Taking into account the odds of getting the loot card puts its store value at nearly $800.00. There are also UDE points that are neither random nor sold in any kind of aftermarket, so many of WoW's MT shop items have a fixed value.
The link you provided is just a collection of ebay transactions. I don't see how ebay is affiliated with Blizzard. Aren't we stretching the RMT boundaries a bit too thin, in order to justify the double subscription model Cryptic is adamant to shove down our throats?
There is the main site for Upper Deck's WoW cards.
http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/WoW/en/
Then, there is the shop where you buy the cards from Upper Deck.
http://store.upperdeck.com/Products/Upper+Deck+Default+Catalog/Trading+Card+Games/A09-World+of+Warcraft/default.aspx
Then there is the UDE points that all purchases contribute to.
http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/points/default.aspx
Finally the UDE point store offering in game items.
http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/points/store/c-9-wow-in-game-codes.aspx
From the FAQ:
What are the UDE Points / Trade Good cards used for?
Each pack contains a UDE Points/Trade Good card. UDE Points can be redeemed for in-game items and other items from the UDE Points Store. After you’ve redeemed the code, you’ll also be able to save up the cards to use in the Crafting Redemption Program!
Got any more questions?
Whatever excuse there is a simple fact, there are items in wow that can only be obtain by buying something outside the de subscription, in other words, money for item. That's the definition of MT. If you want to argue that there is not explicit shop or is a small quantity of items, is fine but it is still MT.
What Roper was trying to explain(my guessing) is that even in games that are not normally considered as using MT you can find them if you look close enough. And yes, he was dodging getting too much into detail, that usually happen in mmos because you dont want to say something that you might later have to change (although Blizzard said no pve->pvp transfers or factions changes ::P).
I can understand your concerns about MT in CO, I have mine too, but it is more about the lack of information that usually leads to speculation.
Chances are you will not need to buy anything from the shop except extra character slots, item storage, name changes and character makeovers if you want. Some just blow things way our of proportion and do not even read before they go off the deep end.
SaintViktor, if that was indeed the case, why would they need to introduce "cryptic bucks"? The services you mentioned are usually handled directly through credit card payments. This extra currency implies that it will not be limited to account management, but also in-game content.
Chances are you will not need to buy anything from the shop except extra character slots, item storage, name changes and character makeovers if you want. Some just blow things way our of proportion and do not even read before they go off the deep end.
Did you read the part where he said vanity items WILL be in the cash shop? Where "fun" cosmetic items WILL be in the cash shop? So my statement still stands. WHY should I have to pay for these items if I am already paying a monthly subscription? It is 100% pure greed, plain and simple. The items should be included with my subscription.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I don't see those as MTs tho.
The in-game stuff are meant to extras... a bonus, on top of getting the cards or going to blizzcon.
We know for sure that there are going to be costume pieces similar to what is available in City of Heroes and their MT shop.
The "Cryptic Bucks" doesn't really imply anything though. If I buy a Chick Fila gift card does that imply that I can start buying underwear from Chick Fila? There is really no relationship between the currency and the product.