Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
July polls: 66% of Americans view Obama favorably, Palin now at 40%
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
www.orgnet.com/divided.html
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance to hijack the identity of the US.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
In other words he was a Christian. And a Deist. And a Unitarian Universalist (which is really what he mostly was, at least by what he said).
There is no monolith called "Christian conservatives." Different people want you to believe different things for different reasons. I have never seen a "Christian Conservative" who wants you to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed everything the bible said. In fact most of the people I have seen attacking jefferson for NOT being a "real" Christian are Christian conservatives.
Please show me the writing of this Christian conservative who makes this claim. I don't believe you.
Sorry, I don't believe you on the gay issue either. I read those threads, posted in those threads, and since I am a Christian who believes in Gay Marriage (I'll even perform the ceremony if you like), I think I am uniquely qualified to see how other Christians develop their arguments. I have never seen any of them try and hide that they think that gay marriage is wrong because of their religious views.
I think you are reading your own prejudices against Christians and anything "conservative" and drawing an incorrect conclusion about ulterior motives. I see their motives as completely open -- they believe homosexuality is a sin, they believe allowing gay marriage will corrupt the family, and so on. Nothing hidden there. I have strong disagreements, as a Christian, with their approach to homosexuality, so I pay pretty close attention to these things.
Again if you can prove your cases (find me a Christian conservative who makes the claim that jefferson believed everything that was in the Bible was true, and show me a Christian conservative poster who tries to hide that he is aganst gay marriage because of his religion), do so. If not, oh well.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
In other words he was a Christian. And a Deist. And a Unitarian Universalist (which is really what he mostly was, at least by what he said).
There is no monolith called "Christian conservatives." Different people want you to believe different things for different reasons. I have never seen a "Christian Conservative" who wants you to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed everything the bible said. In fact most of the people I have seen attacking jefferson for NOT being a "real" Christian are Christian conservatives.
Please show me the writing of this Christian conservative who makes this claim. I don't believe you.
Sorry, I don't believe you on the gay issue either. I read those threads, posted in those threads, and since I am a Christian who believes in Gay Marriage (I'll even perform the ceremony if you like), I think I am uniquely qualified to see how other Christians develop their arguments. I have never seen any of them try and hide that they think that gay marriage is wrong because of their religious views.
I think you are reading your own prejudices against Christians and anything "conservative" and drawing an incorrect conclusion about ulterior motives. I see their motives as completely open -- they believe homosexuality is a sin, they believe allowing gay marriage will corrupt the family, and so on. Nothing hidden there. I have strong disagreements, as a Christian, with their approach to homosexuality, so I pay pretty close attention to these things.
Again if you can prove your cases (find me a Christian conservative who makes the claim that jefferson believed everything that was in the Bible was true, and show me a Christian conservative poster who tries to hide that he is aganst gay marriage because of his religion), do so. If not, oh well.
You cannot be a Christian and believe in Gay marriage. That’s like saying you are an Atheist and believe in God. I love all these people that think they are Christian and are not. You are wannabes. There is no gray there is only the burning light or the pitch of darkness. People who try to rationalize religion into some kind of logical conversation where they can twist and interpret what God wants out of them are fooling themselves in the worst kind of way. There is no logic in faith its emotional and revealing in the integrity of its pure knowingness. You don’t need to test anything, calculate or devise parameters. Some will call this blind Faith and they themselves I say have false reasoning’s of faith.
Then there’s a level that’s more than faith and that is reserved for the called. Not the preacher or some madman with a bomb but those who are touched and in touch and can see all the lies and not be fooled. They are beyond evils grip and escape to the light surviving temptation and learn from their mistakes. The Devils greatest trick was to convince the world he doesn’t exist and now for his next act he is going to convince the world that right is wrong, up is down, left is right and marriage can be gay, truth is lie, weakness is strength, reason is lost.
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
In other words he was a Christian. And a Deist. And a Unitarian Universalist (which is really what he mostly was, at least by what he said).
There is no monolith called "Christian conservatives." Different people want you to believe different things for different reasons. I have never seen a "Christian Conservative" who wants you to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed everything the bible said. In fact most of the people I have seen attacking jefferson for NOT being a "real" Christian are Christian conservatives.
Please show me the writing of this Christian conservative who makes this claim. I don't believe you.
Sorry, I don't believe you on the gay issue either. I read those threads, posted in those threads, and since I am a Christian who believes in Gay Marriage (I'll even perform the ceremony if you like), I think I am uniquely qualified to see how other Christians develop their arguments. I have never seen any of them try and hide that they think that gay marriage is wrong because of their religious views.
I think you are reading your own prejudices against Christians and anything "conservative" and drawing an incorrect conclusion about ulterior motives. I see their motives as completely open -- they believe homosexuality is a sin, they believe allowing gay marriage will corrupt the family, and so on. Nothing hidden there. I have strong disagreements, as a Christian, with their approach to homosexuality, so I pay pretty close attention to these things.
Again if you can prove your cases (find me a Christian conservative who makes the claim that jefferson believed everything that was in the Bible was true, and show me a Christian conservative poster who tries to hide that he is aganst gay marriage because of his religion), do so. If not, oh well.
You cannot be a Christian and believe in Gay marriage. That’s like saying you are an Atheist and believe in God. I love all these people that think they are Christian and are not. You are wannabes. There is no gray there is only the burning light or the pitch of darkness. People who try to rationalize religion into some kind of logical conversation where they can twist and interpret what God wants out of them are fooling themselves in the worst kind of way. There is no logic in faith its emotional and revealing in the integrity of its pure knowingness. You don’t need to test anything, calculate or devise parameters. Some will call this blind Faith and they themselves I say have false reasoning’s of faith.
Then there’s a level that’s more than faith and that is reserved for the called. Not the preacher or some madman with a bomb but those who are touched and in touch and can see all the lies and not be fooled. They are beyond evils grip and escape to the light surviving temptation and learn from their mistakes. The Devils greatest trick was to convince the world he doesn’t exist and now for his next act he is going to convince the world that right is wrong, up is down, left is right and marriage can be gay, truth is lie, weakness is strength, reason is lost.
Then explain to me how their are Churches who, looking at the same scripture as you are (Isuppose, it's hard to tell from what you are saying here), come to the same conclusions as I am?
Being a Christian who accepts gay marriage is NOT the same thing -- it's not even similar -- as saying you are an atheist who believes in God.
A-theist, means "not a theist." It's very definition presupposes that one does not believe in a God. So you are saying I don't believe in a God but I DO believe in God. That is a direct contradiction based upon the words you are using.
Christianity is a different story. How we settle the effects of Christ's work on the Cross is something Christians have been disagreeing with one another for two thousand years. How we approach sin is another one. Is sin to be condemned? If so, how do we "imitate Christ in ALL things." Christ condemns NO sin -- He dies for and FORGIVES it all -- even his own murderers.
Now, forgiveness means, biblically speaking, as total restoration. If that is the case, and homosexuals are in sin. they are already forgiven of that sin and thus the sin is already restored in Christ. It's a done deal. Christians have been struggling with these paradoxes all along.
I believe we should follow Christ and err on the side of LOVE. I take Paul's advice about marriage. IT is better to be unmarried, BUT IF YOU BURN, then you may marry.
BURNING for a woman as opposed to God is "falling short" of pertection, therefore it is sin. Just as "burning" for a man is. So, if a man burns for a man, or a woman for a woman, then I say it is more in keeping with faith and love that they marry, lest their burning be a distraction to their faith in and journey with God.
These are not easy questions and there are no easy answers. Obviously I have been called differently than you have, What as awesome God we have that He can call us to do and believe different things so that we may reason together!
fishermage.blogspot.com
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
In other words he was a Christian. And a Deist. And a Unitarian Universalist (which is really what he mostly was, at least by what he said).
There is no monolith called "Christian conservatives." Different people want you to believe different things for different reasons. I have never seen a "Christian Conservative" who wants you to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed everything the bible said. In fact most of the people I have seen attacking jefferson for NOT being a "real" Christian are Christian conservatives.
Please show me the writing of this Christian conservative who makes this claim. I don't believe you.
Sorry, I don't believe you on the gay issue either. I read those threads, posted in those threads, and since I am a Christian who believes in Gay Marriage (I'll even perform the ceremony if you like), I think I am uniquely qualified to see how other Christians develop their arguments. I have never seen any of them try and hide that they think that gay marriage is wrong because of their religious views.
I think you are reading your own prejudices against Christians and anything "conservative" and drawing an incorrect conclusion about ulterior motives. I see their motives as completely open -- they believe homosexuality is a sin, they believe allowing gay marriage will corrupt the family, and so on. Nothing hidden there. I have strong disagreements, as a Christian, with their approach to homosexuality, so I pay pretty close attention to these things.
Again if you can prove your cases (find me a Christian conservative who makes the claim that jefferson believed everything that was in the Bible was true, and show me a Christian conservative poster who tries to hide that he is aganst gay marriage because of his religion), do so. If not, oh well.
You cannot be a Christian and believe in Gay marriage. That’s like saying you are an Atheist and believe in God. I love all these people that think they are Christian and are not. You are wannabes. There is no gray there is only the burning light or the pitch of darkness. People who try to rationalize religion into some kind of logical conversation where they can twist and interpret what God wants out of them are fooling themselves in the worst kind of way. There is no logic in faith its emotional and revealing in the integrity of its pure knowingness. You don’t need to test anything, calculate or devise parameters. Some will call this blind Faith and they themselves I say have false reasoning’s of faith.
Then there’s a level that’s more than faith and that is reserved for the called. Not the preacher or some madman with a bomb but those who are touched and in touch and can see all the lies and not be fooled. They are beyond evils grip and escape to the light surviving temptation and learn from their mistakes. The Devils greatest trick was to convince the world he doesn’t exist and now for his next act he is going to convince the world that right is wrong, up is down, left is right and marriage can be gay, truth is lie, weakness is strength, reason is lost.
Then explain to me how their are Churches who, looking at the same scripture as you are (Isuppose, it's hard to tell from what you are saying here), come to the same conclusions as I am?
Being a Christian who accepts gay marriage is NOT the same thing -- it's not even similar -- as saying you are an atheist who believes in God.
A-theist, means "not a theist." It's very definition presupposes that one does not believe in a God. So you are saying I don't believe in a God but I DO believe in God. That is a direct contradiction based upon the words you are using.
Christianity is a different story. How we settle the effects of Christ's work on the Cross is something Christians have been disagreeing with one another for two thousand years. How we approach sin is another one. Is sin to be condemned? If so, how do we "imitate Christ in ALL things." Christ condemns NO sin -- He dies for and FORGIVES it all -- even his own murderers.
Now, forgiveness means, biblically speaking, as total restoration. If that is the case, and homosexuals are in sin. they are already forgiven of that sin and thus the sin is already restored in Christ. It's a done deal. Christians have been struggling with these paradoxes all along.
I believe we should follow Christ and err on the side of LOVE. I take Paul's advice about marriage. IT is better to be unmarried, BUT IF YOU BURN, then you may marry.
BURNING for a woman as opposed to God is "falling short" of pertection, therefore it is sin. Just as "burning" for a man is. So, if a man burns for a man, or a woman for a woman, then I say it is more in keeping with faith and love that they marry, lest their burning be a distraction to their faith in and journey with God.
These are not easy questions and there are no easy answers. Obviously I have been called differently than you have, What as awesome God we have that He can call us to do and believe different things so that we may reason together!
There you go trying to rationalize Religion. Its already stated in the bible that in the last days the churches are going to be bad and full of mis-information. Its also stated in the last page of the book of revelations that altering these words will result in damnation so obviously you are reading some altered text and possibly some bad churches. You need to read Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with woman womankind: it is abomination." I don’t think there is any wiggle room there bro...
Forgiveness is given in repentance not just being sinful and knowing of Christ’s sacrifice. You don’t put the cart before the horse. You have to repent your sin, you repent on the blood of Christ so that you can be forgiven and saved.
Listen this is easier than getting all tangled up in knots over arguments. God is Pure Positive Energy. The only way to be able to be in the same area as God is to become Pure positive Energy otherwise the negative energy will be cancelled out. You repent to purge your sin which is the negative Energy so that you can be one with God. Jesus Christ created a vehicle for this transformation called the crucible. You repent there, purge your negative energy.
Its pretty simple. But, you cannot purge all things unless within your heart you really are asking for forgiveness. You cant just go through the motions.
Think of this as a Video Game. There are rules, play your character the way you want but we all know what happens to those who choose to ignore or re-create their own rules…they get breathed on by the Dragon.
I know this sounds childish but simplicity is a way to present your argument plainly so no one needs to think you are hiding something…plus I gotta get back to work.
Not really.
Try having a discussion on say, gay marriage. You'll find a storm of excuses presented by conservatives as they try to hide their real motivation: religion.
Conservatives also love to hide that many of the founding fathers they use in their argument aren't christian at all. Christian Conservatives have been trying to rewrite American history for a very long time, trying to make it seem as if the US is a christian nation.
If anybody is being dishonnest, it's christian conservatives.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you. Very few people are honest about everything. My point is that when conservatives put forth anything, they say, "I am a conservative," and then explain how and why what they do and believe fits with their notion of conservatism.
However, when a liberal tries to do the same thing; they can't. A liberal can't admit to being a LIBERAL. If they do they will lose; or no one will buy their books.
No one sells a book by saying "noted liberal bestseller." However, one does talk about the many notable conservative bestsellers. Once again. conservative is a selling point. Liberal loses you sales and points in popularity. Had Obama declared on a regular basis "I am a liberal" he would not be in the white house.
Even now he tries to hide it.
Now on to your mention of gay marriage: I have never met a conservative person opposed to gay marriage who tries to hide that his views stem from his religion. He may give all sorts of parrallel reasons but I have never seen them hide what they are. Even those parrallel rasons openly come from his religious beliefs about family, society, etc., so I don't really know what you are talking about there.
Most of the founding fathers were Christians, even if many were Christian Universalists -- those that were deists also considered themselves Christians after a fashion -- even Jefferson. His Unitarian Universalism was a OUTGROWTH of enlightenment Christianity; as were all the Unitarians and Universalists at the time. It meant to them they followed the teachings of Christ. If that is the case than we do live in a nation founded on Christian PRINCIPLES.
Therefore it is appropriate to call such men Christians even if they were not fundamentalist ones. If they consiedr themelves Christians that's good enough for me -- even if I might have disagreements with their theological ideas.
It is not up to YOU to decide who is a Christian and who is not one. It's a funny kind of arrogance that declares people incorrect about what they themselves say they are.
Either way, no one is hiding their conservatism -- they are merely including people in THEIR group that you don't think belong there. That's a difference of opinion, not wholesale dishonesty, as is the case when liberals try and hide what they are so they won't lose votes or sales in their books -- or ratings on their news show.
So if they don't put "THIS IS A LIBERAL BOOK!" on the cover, that means they are being dishonest? That's plain silly.
Also, Liberal books are selling.
www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/14/liberal_authors_triumphant_as_us_bookshelves_lean_left/
If you haven't seen any conservative person trying to hide they are against it because of religious motivations, you clearly haven't spend a lot of time following debates. Even on this very forum christian conservatives attempt to hide their religious motivations and will only admit to it if you shoot down all of their excuses and push them into a corner.
So in the sense nobody is hiding their conservatism as in calling themselves conservatists, you're right, but conservatives certainly love to hide some of their conservatives aspects.
Many of the "leading" founding fathers were Deists. Not Christians, this includes Thomas Jefferson.
So when Jefferson called himself a Christian, he was lying? Or that he didn't see a contradiction in being BOTH. I say it is far more likely the latter.
I said that many were Deists -- however, almost all those Deists also considered themselves Christians. In tyhat no one has pronounced High Lord of Theology, I'll take Jefferson's word for it, not yours. The fact is that regardless of his beliefs about the deity of Christ, he was a practicing Christian as well. He certainly wasn't a born-again or a fundamentalist Christian, but he was a Christian by his own words and actions.
Again, I know, since YOu are the High Lord Annointed by His Emminence the Lord Himself as the arbiter of what person belings in which little box of yours, Jefferson was a Deist and NOT a Christian. Sorry. that's nonsense.
Am I a Christian or a Taoist? I am BOTH. I am also a Deist, a Universalist, and a great many other things that do not contradict one another.
Plus, I've been following these debates abut gay rights and such for longer than you've been alive, my young friend. Please, prove your case, Show me an example of a conservative christian hiding that he is a conservative christian to argue against gay marriage. If you are going to make these statements, prove them. I want to see the quotes that lefd you to this point of view.
As for conservatives hiding some of their "conservative aspects," well, when you have to leave the entire context I was carefully drawing, I think that shows you can't actually argue what you were arguing in the first place.
My statement stands and has been untouched by you: Conservatives succeed when they ARE what they say they are. Liberals succeed when they can HIDE what they are.
if Thomas Jefferson was indeed a christian, he apparently had a strong dislike for his own faith.
Quotes:
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
— Thomas Jefferson
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
— Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
"The Christian God is a being of terrific character — cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust."
— Thomas Jefferson
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
— Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, 1823
I'm not going to spend a significant amount of time looking up old threads, nor am I going to mention other posters of this forum that might not be aware i'm attacking them right here. Simply visit the last few threads regarding gay marriage and you'll find the Christian conservatives first comming up with excuses before finally admitting the truth.
Christian conservatives claim they are in favor of freedom, but the moment something comes up that goes against their personal moral code, they will cry foul and try to get it banned.
I don't see anywhere there where he is denying being a Christian. I could have said most of those things. You know many religious Christians consider the Pope to be the anti-Christ? Christianity is the most varied and diverse religion in history -- with many from one denomination despising all who came before. This isn't about throwing quotes around, this is looking at a man and taking him at his word.
Also, date and context for each statement if you are actually trying to make a case.
Also you obviously can't prove what you said about the gay issue -- obviously you just made that up and when called on it, balked.
My statement stands -- and you haven't touched it; even with your attempted diversions.
Conservatives succeed when they say they are conservatives; liberals succeed when they can hide that they are liberals.
That's because he describing christianity in general.
If you consider a person who only agrees with the messages of jesus without believing any of the miracles or divine intervention, then yes he was a christian. However if you only consider people who believe everything the bible says as christians, then no. he isn't a christian. Christian conservatives, however, want you and everybody else to believe that Thomas Jefferson was a person who believed everything the bible said, which is why they added "In god we trust" on the dollar bill and "One nation under god" on the pledge of allegiance.
I can prove what I said about the gay issue, I even pointed you where you have to find them, But I'm not going to slam people here by naming them without having them being able to defend themselves.
In other words he was a Christian. And a Deist. And a Unitarian Universalist (which is really what he mostly was, at least by what he said).
There is no monolith called "Christian conservatives." Different people want you to believe different things for different reasons. I have never seen a "Christian Conservative" who wants you to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed everything the bible said. In fact most of the people I have seen attacking jefferson for NOT being a "real" Christian are Christian conservatives.
Please show me the writing of this Christian conservative who makes this claim. I don't believe you.
Sorry, I don't believe you on the gay issue either. I read those threads, posted in those threads, and since I am a Christian who believes in Gay Marriage (I'll even perform the ceremony if you like), I think I am uniquely qualified to see how other Christians develop their arguments. I have never seen any of them try and hide that they think that gay marriage is wrong because of their religious views.
I think you are reading your own prejudices against Christians and anything "conservative" and drawing an incorrect conclusion about ulterior motives. I see their motives as completely open -- they believe homosexuality is a sin, they believe allowing gay marriage will corrupt the family, and so on. Nothing hidden there. I have strong disagreements, as a Christian, with their approach to homosexuality, so I pay pretty close attention to these things.
Again if you can prove your cases (find me a Christian conservative who makes the claim that jefferson believed everything that was in the Bible was true, and show me a Christian conservative poster who tries to hide that he is aganst gay marriage because of his religion), do so. If not, oh well.
You cannot be a Christian and believe in Gay marriage. That’s like saying you are an Atheist and believe in God. I love all these people that think they are Christian and are not. You are wannabes. There is no gray there is only the burning light or the pitch of darkness. People who try to rationalize religion into some kind of logical conversation where they can twist and interpret what God wants out of them are fooling themselves in the worst kind of way. There is no logic in faith its emotional and revealing in the integrity of its pure knowingness. You don’t need to test anything, calculate or devise parameters. Some will call this blind Faith and they themselves I say have false reasoning’s of faith.
Then there’s a level that’s more than faith and that is reserved for the called. Not the preacher or some madman with a bomb but those who are touched and in touch and can see all the lies and not be fooled. They are beyond evils grip and escape to the light surviving temptation and learn from their mistakes. The Devils greatest trick was to convince the world he doesn’t exist and now for his next act he is going to convince the world that right is wrong, up is down, left is right and marriage can be gay, truth is lie, weakness is strength, reason is lost.
Then explain to me how their are Churches who, looking at the same scripture as you are (Isuppose, it's hard to tell from what you are saying here), come to the same conclusions as I am?
Being a Christian who accepts gay marriage is NOT the same thing -- it's not even similar -- as saying you are an atheist who believes in God.
A-theist, means "not a theist." It's very definition presupposes that one does not believe in a God. So you are saying I don't believe in a God but I DO believe in God. That is a direct contradiction based upon the words you are using.
Christianity is a different story. How we settle the effects of Christ's work on the Cross is something Christians have been disagreeing with one another for two thousand years. How we approach sin is another one. Is sin to be condemned? If so, how do we "imitate Christ in ALL things." Christ condemns NO sin -- He dies for and FORGIVES it all -- even his own murderers.
Now, forgiveness means, biblically speaking, as total restoration. If that is the case, and homosexuals are in sin. they are already forgiven of that sin and thus the sin is already restored in Christ. It's a done deal. Christians have been struggling with these paradoxes all along.
I believe we should follow Christ and err on the side of LOVE. I take Paul's advice about marriage. IT is better to be unmarried, BUT IF YOU BURN, then you may marry.
BURNING for a woman as opposed to God is "falling short" of pertection, therefore it is sin. Just as "burning" for a man is. So, if a man burns for a man, or a woman for a woman, then I say it is more in keeping with faith and love that they marry, lest their burning be a distraction to their faith in and journey with God.
These are not easy questions and there are no easy answers. Obviously I have been called differently than you have, What as awesome God we have that He can call us to do and believe different things so that we may reason together!
There you go trying to rationalize Religion. Its already stated in the bible that in the last days the churches are going to be bad and full of mis-information. Its also stated in the last page of the book of revelations that altering these words will result in damnation so obviously you are reading some altered text and possibly some bad churches. You need to read Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with woman womankind: it is abomination." I don’t think there is any wiggle room there bro...
Forgiveness is given in repentance not just being sinful and knowing of Christ’s sacrifice. You don’t put the cart before the horse. You have to repent your sin, you repent on the blood of Christ so that you can be forgiven and saved.
Listen this is easier than getting all tangled up in knots over arguments. God is Pure Positive Energy. The only way to be able to be in the same area as God is to become Pure positive Energy otherwise the negative energy will be cancelled out. You repent to purge your sin which is the negative Energy so that you can be one with God. Jesus Christ created a vehicle for this transformation called the crucible. You repent there, purge your negative energy.
Its pretty simple. But, you cannot purge all things unless within your heart you really are asking for forgiveness. You cant just go through the motions.
Think of this as a Video Game. There are rules, play your character the way you want but we all know what happens to those who choose to ignore or re-create their own rules…they get breathed on by the Dragon.
I know this sounds childish but simplicity is a way to present your argument plainly so no one needs to think you are hiding something…plus I gotta get back to work.
Repentance is not something you DO, it is a gift from God. Righteousness is not chosen, it is imputed to you through the Grace of God.
Forgiveness is given BEFORE repentance -- repentance is the REACTION to forgiveness. The soldiers murdering Christ were NOT repentant, yet Christ forgave them. Sorry but your doctrine falls short of Christ's own words on the subject.
fishermage.blogspot.com
This political thread ends as as so many do--with a flame storm, misunderstandings, and overall nastiness. Locked. (My suggestion--start a political blog, where you can say anything you want.) ;-)