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Perma death
jb2000
Member Posts: 7
Hi
Im new to this forum and this is my first post. I dont know if this topic already have been to discussion. (I could not find any search on this forum)
I think that is on time that some mmorpg introduce perma death to the genre. Now everyone gets to the higher level, its only a mater off time. 80% of all players are at the same area, and after a while the newbee area gets empty on people.
I also think that the excitement of the game disappear when there is almost none penalty to die. "look a dragon, can we take it? Lets try, we can only die"
I think that people are that god at mmorpg now so they shod handle perma death. Its important that the game have flexibility, so if you die, you dont have to do all things on the same way again (in eq2 that had been the case if you had perma death)
By they way, is there a mmorpg that have perma death? I dont know so much about the minor mmorpg, maybe some brave game developer already have it in a game?
//jb
//jb2K
Comments
Death is inevitable. With perma death I think PvP wouldnt work, noone would go on raids and the game would eventually just become boring because IF you die you have to start all over again. Or you would of course have to design the game so it would work with perma death. But because most people don't like the idea of loosing their char forever I don't think there really is a big market out there for MMORPG makers.
And don't forget about things like lag and disconnects, then it wouldnt even be your fault if you died. It would just piss you off, I know it would piss me of. :P
Flych - 70 Blood Elf Retribution Paladin - Tarren Mill (EU)
Mediocre - 70 Undead Discipline Priest - Tarren Mill (EU)
This issue has been beaten to death (no pun intended) in many forums, but I agree completely with you - permadeath in some form is needed. I admit that there are some issues to be worked out - but I do believe it is not only mandatory but will be well accepted if and when the issues can be worked out.
Contrary to what the second poster said, I feel that it will push players to PvP even more because of the additional "rush of danger" that a permadeath system will impose. Further (with the details of the game properly supporting the concept) it will provide for MUCH more roleplay experiences than current games do.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Games are ment to be fun, not realistic.
What you would get from perma death...?
That isnt even funny.
Maybe others would have fun time when you get panic when a mutant spider bites your ass.
And if you buy a game what costs about 50/$
That would be insane that youll die same day you buy it loss of money, no one would buy them
Game makers wouldnt do that cause any one wouldnt buy em'
Writer tell me onething, why do you want perma death?
Perma death would be cool of one thing, that you dont kill any creatures you want and that when you are injured you get manic (if you want panic play man hunt).
There are many things that some form of permadeath would provide - this is not intended to be an all inclusive list - just off the top of my head. Please note that I said "some form of permadeath" - NOT necessarily precisely like real life. Yes, these are games and thus are intended to be fun.
Also you MUST understand that just adding permadeath to an existing game such as Everquest (or any of them) would NOT work at all - the MMORPG MUST be designed from the ground up with the concept of permadeath in place. There would by necessity be many differences in the game (balance, things to do, etc.) compared to today's MMORPG.
1) Some form of permadeath would make for better overall roleplayabiltiy of the game.
2) Permadeath would make players play in a more "sensible" manner - being more careful in their approach to combat for instance. One of the things wrong with current MMORPGs is that there is little or no consequence to one's actions - there needs to be. Game play in general (particularly surrounding combat) would by necessity (and design) much more tactical in nature rather than simple hack & slash.
3) It would add MUCH more excitement (and consequence) to all combat. This is one of the critiques of MMORPG combat I hear from almost all gamers - it quickly becomes boring and tedius. Adding the threat of permadeath would make all combat much, much more exciting for all types of players - careful and ballsy alike.
4) Further, imagine if (forgetting combat for the moment) one were an explorer and now had to worry about possible death from simple things like jumping off cliffs or swimming underwater - MUCH more excitement and danger (both are good in a game). Further due to the added danger, players automatically would be required to pay more attention to details in the game - again good. Again, so many players recognize how boring and simple MMORPGs of current design are - this would go a long way to providing excitement and danger to MMORPGs for all player types.
4) Having some form of in game permadeath (if properly designed into the game) would allow for adding many other features into the game that would have real gameplay value for many players (real need for insurance for example, and wills, etc., etc.). I could go on about the possible features that could easily be added - but the list would be huge - but most if not all of them depend on the concept that death is real (just like in real life).
I could go on, but this is just a brief list for you. Use your imagination. The way I envision designing an MMORPG is to look to real life - see how systems work - then modify those systems so that they (1) can work in the game world and (2) can add to the fun. I agree completely that games are about fun and thus need not to fully realistic - BUT, adding game playable versions of reality is the proper way to go.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Perma death and very small or inexistant character progression might be a solution to many problems in mmorpg :
- Botting/exploiting would be useless
- PvP wouldnt be for the hardcores only
- Its a solution to grinding
- It would really be a different mmorpg, not another EQ clone.
- The best player would be the stronger, not the highest lvl.
Perma Death and normal character progression would be a very bad design decision, i dont think this kind of game could be successfull.
There are many things that some form of permadeath would provide - this is not intended to be an all inclusive list - just off the top of my head. Please note that I said "some form of permadeath" - NOT necessarily precisely like real life. Yes, these are games and thus are intended to be fun.
Also you MUST understand that just adding permadeath to an existing game such as Everquest (or any of them) would NOT work at all - the MMORPG MUST be designed from the ground up with the concept of permadeath in place. There would by necessity be many differences in the game (balance, things to do, etc.) compared to today's MMORPG.
1) Some form of permadeath would make for better overall roleplayabiltiy of the game.
2) Permadeath would make players play in a more "sensible" manner - being more careful in their approach to combat for instance. One of the things wrong with current MMORPGs is that there is little or no consequence to one's actions - there needs to be. Game play in general (particularly surrounding combat) would by necessity (and design) much more tactical in nature rather than simple hack & slash.
3) It would add MUCH more excitement (and consequence) to all combat. This is one of the critiques of MMORPG combat I hear from almost all gamers - it quickly becomes boring and tedius. Adding the threat of permadeath would make all combat much, much more exciting for all types of players - careful and ballsy alike.
4) Further, imagine if (forgetting combat for the moment) one were an explorer and now had to worry about possible death from simple things like jumping off cliffs or swimming underwater - MUCH more excitement and danger (both are good in a game). Further due to the added danger, players automatically would be required to pay more attention to details in the game - again good. Again, so many players recognize how boring and simple MMORPGs of current design are - this would go a long way to providing excitement and danger to MMORPGs for all player types.
4) Having some form of in game permadeath (if properly designed into the game) would allow for adding many other features into the game that would have real gameplay value for many players (real need for insurance for example, and wills, etc., etc.). I could go on about the possible features that could easily be added - but the list would be huge - but most if not all of them depend on the concept that death is real (just like in real life).
I could go on, but this is just a brief list for you. Use your imagination. The way I envision designing an MMORPG is to look to real life - see how systems work - then modify those systems so that they (1) can work in the game world and (2) can add to the fun. I agree completely that games are about fun and thus need not to fully realistic - BUT, adding game playable versions of reality is the proper way to go.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
You speak true mostly
Perma death would fit in some games, yes
But at the moment is a big problem.
Guys dont RP in MMORPGs so they would say "this is stupid game".
But if we put perma death in to UO for example it would maybe work, but there is so much spammers too. So dunno.
People chooses do they want perma death or not.
Im 17,94% nerd.
Just tested.
I've played a game with a possibility of permadeath. You had to buy a number of these "Deeds" or something (cant remember the name) the goddess lorminstra (Goddess of death and life or something like that) and if you died and got resurrected you lost 1 deed or if your body decomposed then you woke up in really bad shape and xp loss and 2 deeds gone... if you died and had 0 deeds you were permadead. However, i played the game for like 4 years and never lost a character that i can think of. This game (Gemstone III) also had PvP everywhere. If you wanted you could attack anyone at anytime but you might get in trouble with the Gods (GMs). If you were in town they would take all you were wearing and all of your posesions on you and send you to jail. When you got out you would have to run naked to the bank and pay a huge fine or lose all of your stuff. I saw one guy reach his hand in my brother's pocket. So i decapitated him. I had to explain it to the gods but i didnt get in any trouble.
It was a fun game and there was a fear of death.
ohh I forgot after i quit they changed the game from gemstone III to gemstone IV if you care..
You are absolutely correct - which is why I said that the game would by necessity be designed quite differently than today's MMORPGs AND with the concept of the permadeath system in place from the beginning of the design.
I agree, UO is the only one I can imagine that it could easily be added into today.
You are also correct that many (if not most) players don't roleplay. But let's remember what an MMORPG is SUPPOSED to be (at it's core) - a roleplay game! I suspect the truth is that most players don't roleplay at all in MMORPGs NOT because they don't want to or they wouldn't enjoy it - but for the simple fact that most (if not all) current MMORPGs do NOT have any roleplayability (another whole discussion topic btw). All that current games are about is killing - with little or nothing else to do in the game. And further, killing in the best of the current MMORPGs has little or no consequence (in game or oog) at any level. People kill (both mobs and other players) for extremely simple reasons - thus leaving little or no room for roleplay.
Further, the overall simplistic game design of today's MMORPGs (character advancement, character actions available, etc.) are so trivial that one cannot roleplay even if one wanted to. For example (a simple example to make a point): name an MMORPG where one can sit down in a tavern and order food and drink and then have that food and drink delivered by an NPC or other player? I do not know of a single one. Thus, even IF the game bothers to have an Inn (or restaurant depending on the genre), nobody bothers to use them. Why? Because there are NO in game mechanisms to allow for the roleplay surrounding an Inn and what one does in an Inn.
I have long lists of other examples that game designers don't bother to put into their games. All they bother with are mobs to kill - for no reason other than to level (and maybe to get stuff). Thus, NO ROLEPLAY VALUE AT ALL - just hack & slash. I firmly believe that IF game designers added the necessary game mechanisms to provide for a rich roleplay environment, many (if not most) players WOULD roleplay to some extent and enjoy it.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Without reading everyone's post, I'll just say this:
I enjoy perma death. I played a game for 4-5 years that had perma death in it. I thought it added excitement to hunting and PvPing. Granted, I never died permanently since when you died in this game, you usually had a good chance that someone would resurrect you. If you decayed under dire circumstances, then that was when you would die permanently. In the mean time, your soul was bound to your body and would slowly slip away.
I have to say, I watched my fair share of PvP conflicts in this game as well. I saw anything from feuds to friends just battling for fun. Actually now that I remember, I did PvP once and got owned (when I was new to the game). And, I also killed another person one time. This game (which I'm sure people have heard me name all too often) probably had about 2000 subscriptions to it. Granted, I also saw plenty of people die permanently in game (as it was announced that someone "lost their soul to the demonic"). I've already discussed this issue, and know that perma death is quite controversial, but perhaps not as controversial as one might think. If done properly, I believe it would be a great aspect to a game (even if I lost my lvl 100 character).
p.s. And, yes, I have died from disconnect issues in this anonymous game before. I still continued to play it and enjoy it.
________________________________
The meaning of your life is not found in words but in your actions.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Bloodlust is a free mmorpg with permadeath. Too bad it is a terrible game with only 25 players.
-----------------
"The Job Of Art Is To Chase Away Ugliness" - Bono
"Whoever controls the media controls the mind..-'Jim Morrison"
"When decorum is repression, the only dignity free men have is to speak out." ~Abbie Hoffman
Pvp everywhere(and perma death), I like that. Sound like a fun ide.
Lets say that you have to side like in WoW and eq2. A good side and a bad side. On the good side there should be NPC gards in the towns. Then if you attack any other player this guards should atomatic attack the one that attacked. Maybe this is hard to implant to the game engin, I dont know when I not a programmer.
Then on the bad side, like orc or some other "bad" race there shoud not be any guards. Only the strongers will survive or you have to join a strong guild. On this way you will get atomatic "roleplaying" when the diffrent sides will shape diffrent. On this way you will also get a choice if you whant total anarcy or some more peaceful playstyle.
//jb
//jb2K
Perma Death is good as long as ....
It isn't a level based grinding game: Most people whine if they spent 40+ horus on a character and then he DIES.
If the game is Endowment, and Skill based, it will work fine.
You will have no weapon requirements or silly things like that.
Therefore when you create a new character you don't feel so FAR away from being bad ass. You just have to find, or come across the right armor and weapons to make yourself viable again.
i think perma death is a really really bad idea atleast for the next years ... just think about it lag or disconnects can kill you always and bugs are in a mmorpg too usualy so its not skill based to keep your char alive in a perma death game its 50% skill and 50% luck and that sucks
but maybe some counter would be nice like the first 10 times you just get knocked down and at death number 11 it was to much for you and you die ;p
Perma death, while more realistic, it's not fun AT ALL! You work hard to become good, and you are punished if you do something that kills you.
I come back from work, exhausted, I just wanna relax in front of my PC with a good MMORPG, I grind XP, die for a stupid reason, I have huge experience debt to pay, I quit playing for the night. Next day, still exhausted from work, I go back in the game, try to pay off my debt, die again, have even more experience debt than before, cancel my account, and play another MMORPG that does not have that crap, like World of Warcraft.
Sorry but some people love realism, but more people prefer just having fun. We're already being punished for enough crap in real life, do we really need more pain when playing a game? I don't, and that's why I love WoW!
Yes, people will exploit this because like you said, you see a huge dragon, you will see no harm in trying to beat it even if you have a 10% chance of survival cause you will just be punished by having to walk back to your corpse or ask the Guardian to resurect you and have 10 minutes of resurection sickness. But who cares? At least I don't have 1-2 hours worth of grinding just to pay off debt or even have my character deleted or lose a level.
I say play City of Heroes. You lose so much experience for dying, you're gonna love trying to pay it back! Or play Star Wars Galaxies, invest 6-12 months to unlock your Jedi, and who knows, maybe one day they will bring back permadeath cause there was a time where if you died 3 times with your jedi, you lose ALL skills and become a Jedi Padawan and have to start all over again. And see what that did... so many Jedi died 3 times and had to restart that 75% of them quit SWG and sold their accounts for 1000$ and more on Ebay cause they hated the perma death system.
___________ ___ __ _ _ _
Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
Do you really WANT perma death or an amount of lifes per month would be better?
Perma death mean you lose something for good, an amount of lifes per month mean you lose it for the month, be more carefull next month, didnt it have the same benefits without most drawbacks?
If I lose my precious Anofalye for the month, I am cursing, I am roaring, but...I am not outraged, I am looking forward to do better and not die like a noob next time! Of course I wont be happy to lose my precious for the month, but the death system is meaningfull, dont need any CR, decay, XP penalty, I DONT want to die...CR may restore lifes points that can be exchange for more life(s), so everyone want to do them, but nobody will do a suicide CR. If I lose my precious for good, the game lose me, if I lose for the month, I will be on alternates and developping them and maybe losing an alternate for the month as I will be unhappily daredevil!
It would make a HUGE difference to play an elf with 5 lifes per month or a human with 15 lifes per month...(a casual dont die 15 times in a month, so they can play humans safely).
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
If all else in life fails you, buy a vowel.
Lifes per month would be more then welcome as far as I am concerned, a real perma death would make me cry like a baby and move away.
- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I have to say that I completely agree with just about every aspect of what JoeyNipps has stated in this thread. The is definately little to no roleplay-ability in the current spawn of MMORPGs. I think of the idea of Perma-Death as an exciting thing.
A game involving it could include, resurrection and resurrect true etc, spirit planes and even a valhala style progression. OR even like a Budhist belief where, yes you start a new character, but based on the activities of the previous character you could bonuses to the new life that you start. For example in Budhism if you were a good person you would return as a person again but if you were an evil person you could return as an earth worm or snail or goat. That I think would lend itself to some funky progression related to the game.
Furthermore the player themself could be treated like the immortal spirit of the character because they possess the memories of the experiences that the character has gone through, through all it's planes of existanct. In a multiple parallel plane structure, you could have limitations to communication and interaction between characters on different planes. With special class/professions you could have abilities to communicate to characters in other planes and if you were powerful enough bring them back through if they so desired.... Hmmm possibilities are mind boggling.
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 41
No Guild
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 50
No Guild
It seems you are all looking at this from the perspective of the existing MMORPGs. Think progression and innovation people.
Yes, Perma death needs to be worked into a totally new concept of MMORPGs (that may perhaps even involve the RP part).
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 41
No Guild
Y!PP:
Captain Drumunki
Screaming Eels
Lord of the Flag of Convenience
oRO:
Kahyr Swordsman LVL 50
No Guild
Yes, if the mmorpg were actually fun from early stage to late, then permadeath wouldn't be so bad.
It should be hard to permanently die though... like maybe after your health falls to zero, you just become comatose or something, and you only permadie if something continues thrashing or eating your body. It'd give you a chance to be rescued and restored.
Simple answer as to why most MMORPGs do not have permadeath is that folk get attached to their chars having spent some time on them and would not play a game where the can just die and lose everything.
I know I wouldnt.
However It might work where the skills/items were transferred to another char, maybe kill the char/forename and new char has the same surname/skills/items maybe....
I get bored with my characters after a month or two, so I start a new one. So I wouldn't mind permadeath.
of course, your new character should have acces to the same bank.
Why?