So they are reskinning a few zones. Adding in raids and making a couple classic heroics. Opening the gates is ok and fine and the new races arent very interesting without adding some classes. I dont know...seems lazy but thats just me. I dont hate or love WOW just observing here but I would consider this groundbreaking or even good right now until more is released.
They're also redesigning all the quests in the game. Changing an entire game from the inside out hardly seems small to me...
This is far larger than the frontiers free booster that DAoC did, remodeling one large zone is not nearly as complex as redeisgning their game from the ground up.
Redoing multiple classes to be entirely different, changing the landscapes and quests you have to do to level, redoing the crafting system...
Every single complaint that the community has was addressed wtih this being released. They actually listened.
Apologies if this has aleady been discussed here - if it has, I couldn't find an example of it...
Blizzard is very fond of the "phasing" that they introduced in the Lich King. Unless they've specificly explained otherwise, I imagine that the reworking of these zones in Azeroth will be phased, ie, a basicly modified duplication of the exisitng zone. This will mean that they will not have to touch their thousands of pre-existing quests, and the level 1-to 60 experience will not be altered in any way. Its a timeline thing. They simply phase in the post-Cataclysm zones for players who have (for example) already leveled to 80.
Phasing solves every problem that altering existing zones in an otherwise non-dynamic gameworld would, with the exception of a shared sense of reality with other players:
"Click on the vendor to repair. Why can't you see it? You're right on top of it! Are you blind?"
"Maybe. Or perhaps you exist in the future and myself in the past and our voices are being broadcasted through the space-time continuum. Either way, my brain is melting and my gear is still red."
I'll be nonplussed and eating all of my many hats if they actually permenantly alter the existing Azeroth, because of the nightmare of re-writing all those vanilla quests. But we'll see.
I'm quite stoked for the expansion, as it's addressing a number of the concerns I've had with WoW over the past few months. The main concern was that of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms effectively feeling dead and rather useless. The two continents simply lost the charm and appeal they used to have.
It's great Blizzard aren't creating yet another continent for high level players to further spread out players in the game. I look forward to seeing high and low level characters alike running around, playing both new and old content that was greatly designed and is currently going to such waste.
Now this part i agree 100% with.I never liked the idea of spreading out the population,alienating all the levels.However,with some good effort ,you can create NEW levels,and content and keep the common zones as through ways,The design of ALWAYS making NEW levels FURTHER away is just ridiculous.
You can also bet Blizzard,with their lack of creativity,WILL create more instances for a NEW "Tier" of armour,it is pretty much all they know how to do,it is again,just like this expansion,very easy to pull off more instances.
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Total cop-out! WoW has become a joke with this expansion. It's not enough to bring me back... I'm just kidding.. seriously though I have no desire to see areas that I've already leveled up in millions of times, re designed. Plus I doubt all areas will be drastically changed.. so I'm afriad vets will be disspointment, because all they can do is make yet ANOTHER alt or fly around and look at the difference.. that excitment will last a day or two.
It's pretty cool when hear they are going to change everything.. but when you think about the reality of it.... meh.
They do it again, the reason myself and most of my original guild stopped playing years ago
As I understand from my friends who still play, Arthas still isnt even in the game yet.....and here they are announcing the next expansion. So I ask what is the point of even playing the game to get all that stuff, when this looms on the horizon and essentially all your stuff will be useless....I understand the business side, but from a game standpoint that kinda sucks
WoW was one of the best and most fun games I ever played during its first few years, but I dunno, from an MMO perspective it just seems pointless to play if they are gunna keep rendering all your accomplishments obsolete.
Playing : DayZ
Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift, AA, WS
Downplaying this will make you very trolly indeed. "Hey, the new WOW is just a redone landscape with a few zones and holes to fill in textures." Hey this is a videogame with a monitor, a keyboard and some colors.....
wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
Zone art/terrain is not code. They have a huge jump on the zone art for the expansion being able to load the original and modifing it.
3 times more money and resources? grats on pulling that number out of your ass.
And with that said, I'm not a wow player but I am impressed at the road they are going down. They are learning from some mistakes that EQ had.
So they are reskinning a few zones. Adding in raids and making a couple classic heroics. Opening the gates is ok and fine and the new races arent very interesting without adding some classes. I dont know...seems lazy but thats just me. I dont hate or love WOW just observing here but I would consider this groundbreaking or even good right now until more is released.
They're also redesigning all the quests in the game. Changing an entire game from the inside out hardly seems small to me...
This is far larger than the frontiers free booster that DAoC did, remodeling one large zone is not nearly as complex as redeisgning their game from the ground up.
Redoing multiple classes to be entirely different, changing the landscapes and quests you have to do to level, redoing the crafting system...
Every single complaint that the community has was addressed wtih this being released. They actually listened.
I guess you didn't play DAOC then did you? NF wasn't a remodel because each Frontier zone was seperate and outside of your own realm reached by a teleportation pad. they made 3 extremely larger zones, had a connecting island (i think that came later?), diveable water, new mobs, new siege equipment, a revamped keep system, guard towers, teleporting keep paths, entirely new realm abilities which also effected class designs, that was altered
so all in all, you are seriously mistaken at the largeness and major overhall NF was, try again
I did, I'm not mistaken, I was a 50 reaver and a 50 warden.
Im not seriously mistaken, I have no idea how you can think that the re model of a few zones can compare to the overhaul of two entire continents, adding in many zones and dungeons that were always unavailable to enter. Considering with that they are entirely overhauling classes and quests and dungeons...
There is no comparison. They are adding in three new battle grounds, that alone trumps what you are mentioning.
They do it again, the reason myself and most of my original guild stopped playing years ago As I understand from my friends who still play, Arthas still isnt even in the game yet.....and here they are announcing the next expansion. So I ask what is the point of even playing the game to get all that stuff, when this looms on the horizon and essentially all your stuff will be useless....I understand the business side, but from a game standpoint that kinda sucks WoW was one of the best and most fun games I ever played during its first few years, but I dunno, from an MMO perspective it just seems pointless to play if they are gunna keep rendering all your accomplishments obsolete.
They're dropping the gloves against SW:TOR. If SW:TOR gets delayed, you can bet so will Cataclysm. It's also not a coincidence that this announcement comes out 2 weeks before Champions is released.
Escalating content is nothing new and inevitable in MMO's. All you can do is have fun while it lasts.
They do it again, the reason myself and most of my original guild stopped playing years ago As I understand from my friends who still play, Arthas still isnt even in the game yet.....and here they are announcing the next expansion. So I ask what is the point of even playing the game to get all that stuff, when this looms on the horizon and essentially all your stuff will be useless....I understand the business side, but from a game standpoint that kinda sucks WoW was one of the best and most fun games I ever played during its first few years, but I dunno, from an MMO perspective it just seems pointless to play if they are gunna keep rendering all your accomplishments obsolete.
They're dropping the gloves against SW:TOR. If SW:TOR gets delayed, you can bet so will Cataclysm. It's also not a coincidence that this announcement comes out 2 weeks before Champions is released.
Escalating content is nothing new and inevitable in MMO's. All you can do is have fun while it lasts.
I some how doubt blizzard planned this with Champions in mind. They planned it for Blizzon.
Downplaying this will make you very trolly indeed. "Hey, the new WOW is just a redone landscape with a few zones and holes to fill in textures." Hey this is a videogame with a monitor, a keyboard and some colors.....
wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
negative lol
and daoc had underwater worlds in 2003, with a much smaller dev team then the games you listed... jus saying , free flying doesn't fit into most of the lore of the games you speak of if any at all (i'm no expert, i may be wrong on 1 of them) and as far as aion, i think ncsoft is just a shitty company that put in a feature here and there to limit their work, and make the most possible profit with the time involved
regardless neither of us will get any push on each others opinions, so it is what it is
Being an avid DAoC player and having played since release I can comment on this, you seem to have confirmed what he was saying, as DAoC did have a waterworld in 2003 yes, but trials of atlantis added a completley new continent in which this "water world" was ( and was made from scratch ). Remind you, although swimming was allowed in this new zone, in the classic DAoC water was still NOT able to support underwater swimming.
you don't say? and then they updated all the other water in the game with the same thing, no big deal... new frontiers was a bigger expansion then this, shit TOA was huge and way more work then this expansion
Yeah :P And I know they fixed the water =D I was just using that release point to prove Zorn's point.And no NF/ToA were not in the same scope as this, ToA was considered a let down by the players in terms of content ect, many consider this the downfall of DAoC. ToA was a big expansion yes,Before release it was hyped a lot yes, but no where near the size/magnitude of Catacylsm, I don't even have to mention NF, the closest expansion DAoC had that had similarities would have to be Catacombs I would think. ToA just added ML/arti raids and an underwater Continent, and took the games PVP to hell. Who knows Catacylsm might be in the same boat as ToA and bring WoW to its knees, I'm just saying the expansions are not comparable :P
ya, but my point is they didn't re-design all of the original zones/si zones/and anywhere else with water to add a water you could dive into
and we aren't talking about let downs or players not liking the game, and i don't need your history of daoc, i played from day one with a breaks here and there, but more or less its entire life
toa/nf were huge expansions, we are talking about size and content of expansions are we not? i mean otherwise we shouldn't be talking at all, because this wow expansion isn't out and whats known is very little. these aren't really game altering things blizzard is doing, unlike what daoc did, game altering, and it didn't work out... mainly because they tried to make the pve people happy and in turn most of the players didn't want all that pve (they would have been playing everquest)
and your right, i shouldn't have let catacombs off the hook there, that changed the entire look of the game (which i still think looks great despite what people say about the graphics)
raiding aside, DAoC still has more depth then WoW ever will, thats pretty bad considering its the end all be all of mmos according to everyone
fact of the matter is, its a nice thing WoW is doing, changing the original zones, and its something more themepark MMOs should do to make it more interesting for re-rolls and new players, but the size of the content is minimal, this SHOULD be a free expansion
Yeah I understood your point, and we are obviously talking of content/size of the expansions, I was just saying the expansion's are not comparable, and mentioned their downfall because a ton of the content they promised in ToA was delayed until furthur "free expansions" NF was huge yes ( But they're still working on their class "dedicated class balancing/RA's" that came with NF all these years later ) so was TOA but they were both standard addon expansions that add a new content/quest ect, not changing the core part of the world drastically, this is huge, DAoC attempted this with the dragon campaigns, those were incredibly lame however. Yes I agree with you that WoW 's depth will never be what DAoC's was....I have not played an mmorpg that had the true world/depth feeling of DAoC. And I'd love for this to be a free expansion, but no mmorpg out there offers that much content for free ( aside from Lineage 2 which comes very close ) Either way, we seem to be 2 stop signs arguing with each other
P.S. they claim NF/housing were "free expansions" but do you remember after SI was launched NF/player housing/player mounts were promised in the next expansion, Instead, one expansion went retail lacking that specific content then future "free" expansions came with it.
Downplaying this will make you very trolly indeed. "Hey, the new WOW is just a redone landscape with a few zones and holes to fill in textures." Hey this is a videogame with a monitor, a keyboard and some colors.....
wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
negative lol
and daoc had underwater worlds in 2003, with a much smaller dev team then the games you listed... jus saying , free flying doesn't fit into most of the lore of the games you speak of if any at all (i'm no expert, i may be wrong on 1 of them) and as far as aion, i think ncsoft is just a shitty company that put in a feature here and there to limit their work, and make the most possible profit with the time involved
regardless neither of us will get any push on each others opinions, so it is what it is
Being an avid DAoC player and having played since release I can comment on this, you seem to have confirmed what he was saying, as DAoC did have a waterworld in 2003 yes, but trials of atlantis added a completley new continent in which this "water world" was ( and was made from scratch ). Remind you, although swimming was allowed in this new zone, in the classic DAoC water was still NOT able to support underwater swimming.
you don't say? and then they updated all the other water in the game with the same thing, no big deal... new frontiers was a bigger expansion then this, shit TOA was huge and way more work then this expansion
Yeah :P And I know they fixed the water =D I was just using that release point to prove Zorn's point.And no NF/ToA were not in the same scope as this, ToA was considered a let down by the players in terms of content ect, many consider this the downfall of DAoC. ToA was a big expansion yes,Before release it was hyped a lot yes, but no where near the size/magnitude of Catacylsm, I don't even have to mention NF, the closest expansion DAoC had that had similarities would have to be Catacombs I would think. ToA just added ML/arti raids and an underwater Continent, and took the games PVP to hell. Who knows Catacylsm might be in the same boat as ToA and bring WoW to its knees, I'm just saying the expansions are not comparable :P
ya, but my point is they didn't re-design all of the original zones/si zones/and anywhere else with water to add a water you could dive into
and we aren't talking about let downs or players not liking the game, and i don't need your history of daoc, i played from day one with a breaks here and there, but more or less its entire life
toa/nf were huge expansions, we are talking about size and content of expansions are we not? i mean otherwise we shouldn't be talking at all, because this wow expansion isn't out and whats known is very little. these aren't really game altering things blizzard is doing, unlike what daoc did, game altering, and it didn't work out... mainly because they tried to make the pve people happy and in turn most of the players didn't want all that pve (they would have been playing everquest)
and your right, i shouldn't have let catacombs off the hook there, that changed the entire look of the game (which i still think looks great despite what people say about the graphics)
raiding aside, DAoC still has more depth then WoW ever will, thats pretty bad considering its the end all be all of mmos according to everyone
fact of the matter is, its a nice thing WoW is doing, changing the original zones, and its something more themepark MMOs should do to make it more interesting for re-rolls and new players, but the size of the content is minimal, this SHOULD be a free expansion
Yeah I understood your point, and we are obviously talking of content/size of the expansions, I was just saying the expansion's are not comparable, and mentioned their downfall because a ton of the content they promised in ToA was delayed until furthur "free expansions" NF was huge yes ( But they're still working on their class "dedicated class balancing/RA's" that came with NF all these years later ) so was TOA but they were both standard addon expansions that add a new content/quest ect, not changing the core part of the world drastically, this is huge, DAoC attempted this with the dragon campaigns, those were incredibly lame however. Yes I agree with you that WoW 's depth will never be what DAoC's was....I have not played an mmorpg that had the true world/depth feeling of DAoC. And I'd love for this to be a free expansion, but no mmorpg out there offers that much content for free ( aside from Lineage 2 which comes very close ) Either way, we seem to be 2 stop signs arguing with each other
P.S. they claim NF/housing were "free expansions" but do you remember after SI was launched NF/player housing/player mounts were promised in the next expansion, Instead, one expansion went retail lacking that specific content then future "free" expansions came with it.
your point about the class/ra balance is really a useless point, as nerfs and love happens in ALL mmos o_O
It was an added note and not the subject of my post.
With this move they can reassemble everyone in the zones of Azeroth (but redone and adapted to 2010 techniques in world design and questing and - no doubt - some phasing). That's a real challenge these days of Fantasy MMORPG's. Regroup the people instead of spreading out the population is the key phrase of this expansion. Blizzard did it again. While others launch time and again content after content, class after class,.... these MMO's simply dig their own grave by spreading populations to a point you hardly see one other person per session.
Zorndorf, i just have to say..... I agree.
(ouch, think I broke something there).
I think its a great idea to pull the players back together and give people a reason to revisit the original zones and not have large tracts of tired and worn out content just laying about.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With this move they can reassemble everyone in the zones of Azeroth (but redone and adapted to 2010 techniques in world design and questing and - no doubt - some phasing). That's a real challenge these days of Fantasy MMORPG's. Regroup the people instead of spreading out the population is the key phrase of this expansion. Blizzard did it again. While others launch time and again content after content, class after class,.... these MMO's simply dig their own grave by spreading populations to a point you hardly see one other person per session.
Zorndorf, i just have to say..... I agree.
(ouch, think I broke something there).
I think its a great idea to pull the players back together and give people a reason to revisit the original zones and not have large tracts of tired and worn out content just laying about.
I think this is spot on in addressing something that is a problem in mmo that get older (especially ones with to many expansions).
Still, I am not sold that this is the right solution to prevent or reinvigorate old content. In the past I have had severe doubts about how blizzard handles things and to my surprise it almost always works out for the better, so it would be unwise for me to dismiss this as something bad without reason.
Yet I just can't look at it and say it sounds awesome. Maybe when more details come out.
Well I think the game is being fairly shaken up as is by improving/adding on to what it already is ( expansion ), and they are adding new zones, I Guess we'll never change each other's mind here But considering mmorpg expansions of late and the past I don't see how this is being practical/safe by any means. But I do agree it's probably going to be well recieved
The only REAL risk for any MMO expansion or "improvement" is pretty much changing the entire game, completely *cough* NGE *cough*.
To be honest, WoW's old area definitely needed a major overhal/improvements so this is probably well recieved by most WoW fans. I'll give this expansion a try but as of right now, I'm hooked on aion
I have to say, I did not even finish watching the trailer for it. The only interesting thing I saw was the archeology profession, that lets you customize skills or something.
I mean, they are repackaging the entire first part of the game......
.....?
Really? Sure, it will be phased but, mehhh. Ragnaros..onyxia...black rock mountain. Deadmines and that other lowbie instance.
Yeah. I Dunno. Don't hate the game or anything, but I can't understand how people can eat this all up <.<.
i can see why my friends left that game a while ago and have never returned. It looks like your playing a cartoon . seems outdated for a game now adays .
Let's remember for a second, this is all speculation, none of us know how successful or unsuccessful this expansion will really be.
Now my personal opinion as an ex-WoW 'r, I look forward to coming back for one thing. Flying in EK/Kalim.
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I'm actually pretty excited for this. I was already considering returning to WoW, and I think this seals the deal (albeit sometime down the road... likely Q2 or Q3 2010 or later). As others have said, I think re-doing existing areas was an excellent idea. Everquest seems like a ghost town now, not just because of fewer players, but because the expansions kept adding zones upon zones upon zones... so they ended up with like 300 empty zones because everyone went to play the newest content in the newest 25 zones (I'm just throwing numbers out there, I don't know the actual numbers of zones anymore, except that there are way too many of them). Giving players reason to re-visit old zones is a wonderful idea. The complete quest re-vamp (if I understand correctly) is a nice one too. I don't much care for the goblin race, but I think Worgens will be interesting. Won't necessarily add a huge new dynamic, but it might be fun to play a Worgen. I'm interested to see how the old-world revamp is going to affect major cities and dungeons too. Will Deadmines change? Will there be new instances? Will I finally be able to enter that annoying barred off instance portal in Stormwind? I quit the summer before Wrath of the Lich King and swore I was never coming back, but you know how that goes The other thing is that some friends of mine recently moved back to WoW, so... friend gravity I guess. But I am really excited for the expansion. The one thing I'm not sure I like is the new class/race combos. I don't think they make much sense. Why can Taurens suddenly be paladins and priests? I don't really think priest and paladin fits with the Tauren background / culture at all. I don't think I like orc mages either, but that's a little more acceptable since they have always been playable warlocks... The gnome priests are odd too, but I guess they were in Gnomeregan. It just doesn't sit quite right with me. Oh well.
But for the record, I'm an MMO jumper mostly. I've played many different MMOs, liked most of them, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. When I get bored with the strengths of one I leave what's left behind and play a different game. The repetitive nature of most MMOs ensures that this will happen for me, and until an MMO comes along that significantly reduces repetitive grind, I'm perfectly happy game hopping to keep things fresh.
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I have to say, I did not even finish watching the trailer for it. The only interesting thing I saw was the archeology profession, that lets you customize skills or something.
Sounds like the stigma system to me.
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LOL at everyone on this board too funny. Face it blizz is an unstoppable force, they employ the best artists, writers, graphic designers, engine programmers and 3d designers in the business. This expansion will shatter all expectations sell millions of copies and millions of people will play and casually enjoy themselves while anime weirdos enjoy flying around with wings get tired and come back to WOW . You know its going to happen. I played EQ, DAOC (thoroughly enjoyed them until they got ruined by bad ideas), EQ2, WAR (god what a horrible game), Vanguard (made by 10 yr olds game is terrible) and UO (not too into it for some odd reason). WOW is fun, casual and the best animations, graphic art style in the business. Go load up AOC, WAR, EQ2 sorry none of those games make me go wow thats really nice. Oh well enjoy the rest of the subpar 100 k sub games.
BTW STar wars TOR will be huge as well and I plan on playing that Guild Wars 2 and of course wow. Bioware will do a great job and probably be right up there with blizz as #2 mmo on the planet they're doing a great job (just dont expect an open world though its going to be alot of instancing).
This looks like the very definition of phoning it in to me. Old green bits of land? Add some fire and lava. Old desert bits of land? Add some green. Old firey bits of land? Add more fire. Need new races? Take some old graphics and make them playable (bet the talent trees for those will be really well thought through). Need new dungeons? Take old dungeons and make them heroic. Don't design anywhere new to go, just add flying mounts so people can go to the same places in a slightly different way. And don't forget the 'reskin - resize - rename' design method of new creatures. Great stuff.
Any news of them changing the 'stand there and hit something whilst being hit yourself until one of you falls over' combat method?
Nah. But here's lava where once there was grass. Epic.
Blizzard - milking the cash cow until the teats go purple.
The ruptured capillaries in your nose belie the clarity of your wisdom.
Ah ha, you'll be buying it and loggin in day one. I love these boards lol.
Lies! First I have to buy several other MMOs, be profoundly disappointed in them, cry bitterly, weakly attempt to try and live a normal life and THEN go scurrying back to WoW. Once there I will proceed to bitch and whine endlessly about it until some other new MMOs appear.
Rinse, repeat.
The ruptured capillaries in your nose belie the clarity of your wisdom.
Ah ha, you'll be buying it and loggin in day one. I love these boards lol.
Lies! First I have to buy several other MMOs, be profoundly disappointed in them, cry bitterly, weakly attempt to try and live a normal life and THEN go scurrying back to WoW. Once there I will proceed to bitch and whine endlessly about it until some other new MMOs appear.
Rinse, repeat.
Sadly that seems to be the gameplan of many people here. All that anger for not having a replacement game has to go somewhere after all.
Comments
They're also redesigning all the quests in the game. Changing an entire game from the inside out hardly seems small to me...
This is far larger than the frontiers free booster that DAoC did, remodeling one large zone is not nearly as complex as redeisgning their game from the ground up.
Redoing multiple classes to be entirely different, changing the landscapes and quests you have to do to level, redoing the crafting system...
Every single complaint that the community has was addressed wtih this being released. They actually listened.
Apologies if this has aleady been discussed here - if it has, I couldn't find an example of it...
Blizzard is very fond of the "phasing" that they introduced in the Lich King. Unless they've specificly explained otherwise, I imagine that the reworking of these zones in Azeroth will be phased, ie, a basicly modified duplication of the exisitng zone. This will mean that they will not have to touch their thousands of pre-existing quests, and the level 1-to 60 experience will not be altered in any way. Its a timeline thing. They simply phase in the post-Cataclysm zones for players who have (for example) already leveled to 80.
Phasing solves every problem that altering existing zones in an otherwise non-dynamic gameworld would, with the exception of a shared sense of reality with other players:
"Click on the vendor to repair. Why can't you see it? You're right on top of it! Are you blind?"
"Maybe. Or perhaps you exist in the future and myself in the past and our voices are being broadcasted through the space-time continuum. Either way, my brain is melting and my gear is still red."
I'll be nonplussed and eating all of my many hats if they actually permenantly alter the existing Azeroth, because of the nightmare of re-writing all those vanilla quests. But we'll see.
Now this part i agree 100% with.I never liked the idea of spreading out the population,alienating all the levels.However,with some good effort ,you can create NEW levels,and content and keep the common zones as through ways,The design of ALWAYS making NEW levels FURTHER away is just ridiculous.
You can also bet Blizzard,with their lack of creativity,WILL create more instances for a NEW "Tier" of armour,it is pretty much all they know how to do,it is again,just like this expansion,very easy to pull off more instances.
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Total cop-out! WoW has become a joke with this expansion. It's not enough to bring me back... I'm just kidding.. seriously though I have no desire to see areas that I've already leveled up in millions of times, re designed. Plus I doubt all areas will be drastically changed.. so I'm afriad vets will be disspointment, because all they can do is make yet ANOTHER alt or fly around and look at the difference.. that excitment will last a day or two.
It's pretty cool when hear they are going to change everything.. but when you think about the reality of it.... meh.
They do it again, the reason myself and most of my original guild stopped playing years ago
As I understand from my friends who still play, Arthas still isnt even in the game yet.....and here they are announcing the next expansion. So I ask what is the point of even playing the game to get all that stuff, when this looms on the horizon and essentially all your stuff will be useless....I understand the business side, but from a game standpoint that kinda sucks
WoW was one of the best and most fun games I ever played during its first few years, but I dunno, from an MMO perspective it just seems pointless to play if they are gunna keep rendering all your accomplishments obsolete.
Playing : DayZ
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wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
Zone art/terrain is not code. They have a huge jump on the zone art for the expansion being able to load the original and modifing it.
3 times more money and resources? grats on pulling that number out of your ass.
And with that said, I'm not a wow player but I am impressed at the road they are going down. They are learning from some mistakes that EQ had.
They're also redesigning all the quests in the game. Changing an entire game from the inside out hardly seems small to me...
This is far larger than the frontiers free booster that DAoC did, remodeling one large zone is not nearly as complex as redeisgning their game from the ground up.
Redoing multiple classes to be entirely different, changing the landscapes and quests you have to do to level, redoing the crafting system...
Every single complaint that the community has was addressed wtih this being released. They actually listened.
I guess you didn't play DAOC then did you? NF wasn't a remodel because each Frontier zone was seperate and outside of your own realm reached by a teleportation pad. they made 3 extremely larger zones, had a connecting island (i think that came later?), diveable water, new mobs, new siege equipment, a revamped keep system, guard towers, teleporting keep paths, entirely new realm abilities which also effected class designs, that was altered
so all in all, you are seriously mistaken at the largeness and major overhall NF was, try again
I did, I'm not mistaken, I was a 50 reaver and a 50 warden.
Im not seriously mistaken, I have no idea how you can think that the re model of a few zones can compare to the overhaul of two entire continents, adding in many zones and dungeons that were always unavailable to enter. Considering with that they are entirely overhauling classes and quests and dungeons...
There is no comparison. They are adding in three new battle grounds, that alone trumps what you are mentioning.
They're dropping the gloves against SW:TOR. If SW:TOR gets delayed, you can bet so will Cataclysm. It's also not a coincidence that this announcement comes out 2 weeks before Champions is released.
Escalating content is nothing new and inevitable in MMO's. All you can do is have fun while it lasts.
They're dropping the gloves against SW:TOR. If SW:TOR gets delayed, you can bet so will Cataclysm. It's also not a coincidence that this announcement comes out 2 weeks before Champions is released.
Escalating content is nothing new and inevitable in MMO's. All you can do is have fun while it lasts.
I some how doubt blizzard planned this with Champions in mind. They planned it for Blizzon.
wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
negative lol
and daoc had underwater worlds in 2003, with a much smaller dev team then the games you listed... jus saying , free flying doesn't fit into most of the lore of the games you speak of if any at all (i'm no expert, i may be wrong on 1 of them) and as far as aion, i think ncsoft is just a shitty company that put in a feature here and there to limit their work, and make the most possible profit with the time involved
regardless neither of us will get any push on each others opinions, so it is what it is
Being an avid DAoC player and having played since release I can comment on this, you seem to have confirmed what he was saying, as DAoC did have a waterworld in 2003 yes, but trials of atlantis added a completley new continent in which this "water world" was ( and was made from scratch ). Remind you, although swimming was allowed in this new zone, in the classic DAoC water was still NOT able to support underwater swimming.
you don't say? and then they updated all the other water in the game with the same thing, no big deal... new frontiers was a bigger expansion then this, shit TOA was huge and way more work then this expansion
Yeah :P And I know they fixed the water =D I was just using that release point to prove Zorn's point.And no NF/ToA were not in the same scope as this, ToA was considered a let down by the players in terms of content ect, many consider this the downfall of DAoC. ToA was a big expansion yes,Before release it was hyped a lot yes, but no where near the size/magnitude of Catacylsm, I don't even have to mention NF, the closest expansion DAoC had that had similarities would have to be Catacombs I would think. ToA just added ML/arti raids and an underwater Continent, and took the games PVP to hell. Who knows Catacylsm might be in the same boat as ToA and bring WoW to its knees, I'm just saying the expansions are not comparable :P
ya, but my point is they didn't re-design all of the original zones/si zones/and anywhere else with water to add a water you could dive into
and we aren't talking about let downs or players not liking the game, and i don't need your history of daoc, i played from day one with a breaks here and there, but more or less its entire life
toa/nf were huge expansions, we are talking about size and content of expansions are we not? i mean otherwise we shouldn't be talking at all, because this wow expansion isn't out and whats known is very little. these aren't really game altering things blizzard is doing, unlike what daoc did, game altering, and it didn't work out... mainly because they tried to make the pve people happy and in turn most of the players didn't want all that pve (they would have been playing everquest)
and your right, i shouldn't have let catacombs off the hook there, that changed the entire look of the game (which i still think looks great despite what people say about the graphics)
raiding aside, DAoC still has more depth then WoW ever will, thats pretty bad considering its the end all be all of mmos according to everyone
fact of the matter is, its a nice thing WoW is doing, changing the original zones, and its something more themepark MMOs should do to make it more interesting for re-rolls and new players, but the size of the content is minimal, this SHOULD be a free expansion
Yeah I understood your point, and we are obviously talking of content/size of the expansions, I was just saying the expansion's are not comparable, and mentioned their downfall because a ton of the content they promised in ToA was delayed until furthur "free expansions" NF was huge yes ( But they're still working on their class "dedicated class balancing/RA's" that came with NF all these years later ) so was TOA but they were both standard addon expansions that add a new content/quest ect, not changing the core part of the world drastically, this is huge, DAoC attempted this with the dragon campaigns, those were incredibly lame however. Yes I agree with you that WoW 's depth will never be what DAoC's was....I have not played an mmorpg that had the true world/depth feeling of DAoC. And I'd love for this to be a free expansion, but no mmorpg out there offers that much content for free ( aside from Lineage 2 which comes very close ) Either way, we seem to be 2 stop signs arguing with each other
P.S. they claim NF/housing were "free expansions" but do you remember after SI was launched NF/player housing/player mounts were promised in the next expansion, Instead, one expansion went retail lacking that specific content then future "free" expansions came with it.
S H A D O W H A N D
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wow is wow, landscape doesn't change that i think the game isn't fun, to each is own on that
its a marketing thing, games getting desolate in the lower level areas
you think the designers said, lets re-do the entire original zones from scratch? hell no, they modified content that was already there, ripped it up, filled in the gaps, re-textured shit.. i promise you that its not 100% new coding and modeling its probably more like 10%
the genius behind it all is the fact that they said
lets allow new race/class combinations, people will re-roll and that in turn will help new players have groups and meet people
kudos to them, i could care less if wow lasts another 20 years, as far as a marketing scheme this is GIGANTIC, as far as actual work, its not so big, i'm sorry if it upsets you, but its the honest truth
Just one example:
To make a zone 3D fly-able means it takes around 3 times more resources to accomplish this. Instead of "fake" 3D/2D borders to create mountains that can't be surpassed, you DO need to redo the original code from scratch.
BTW, that's one of the reasons ... AoC, WAR, LotrO don't have ANY free flying in their lands AND why Aion only has limited zones where you can stretch the wings. Underwater worlds is just an extra that is skipped by those MMO's (just to save money ... and development time...)
Earlier discussions with Blizzard developpers showed that creating FULL 3D passable landscapes takes indeed 3 times more money to create.
So if that's not "big" to you, no problem, it shows you don't have a clue of world designs and just how costly it is to make it FULL 3D without loading screens or the dreadful "zoning".
negative lol
and daoc had underwater worlds in 2003, with a much smaller dev team then the games you listed... jus saying , free flying doesn't fit into most of the lore of the games you speak of if any at all (i'm no expert, i may be wrong on 1 of them) and as far as aion, i think ncsoft is just a shitty company that put in a feature here and there to limit their work, and make the most possible profit with the time involved
regardless neither of us will get any push on each others opinions, so it is what it is
Being an avid DAoC player and having played since release I can comment on this, you seem to have confirmed what he was saying, as DAoC did have a waterworld in 2003 yes, but trials of atlantis added a completley new continent in which this "water world" was ( and was made from scratch ). Remind you, although swimming was allowed in this new zone, in the classic DAoC water was still NOT able to support underwater swimming.
you don't say? and then they updated all the other water in the game with the same thing, no big deal... new frontiers was a bigger expansion then this, shit TOA was huge and way more work then this expansion
Yeah :P And I know they fixed the water =D I was just using that release point to prove Zorn's point.And no NF/ToA were not in the same scope as this, ToA was considered a let down by the players in terms of content ect, many consider this the downfall of DAoC. ToA was a big expansion yes,Before release it was hyped a lot yes, but no where near the size/magnitude of Catacylsm, I don't even have to mention NF, the closest expansion DAoC had that had similarities would have to be Catacombs I would think. ToA just added ML/arti raids and an underwater Continent, and took the games PVP to hell. Who knows Catacylsm might be in the same boat as ToA and bring WoW to its knees, I'm just saying the expansions are not comparable :P
ya, but my point is they didn't re-design all of the original zones/si zones/and anywhere else with water to add a water you could dive into
and we aren't talking about let downs or players not liking the game, and i don't need your history of daoc, i played from day one with a breaks here and there, but more or less its entire life
toa/nf were huge expansions, we are talking about size and content of expansions are we not? i mean otherwise we shouldn't be talking at all, because this wow expansion isn't out and whats known is very little. these aren't really game altering things blizzard is doing, unlike what daoc did, game altering, and it didn't work out... mainly because they tried to make the pve people happy and in turn most of the players didn't want all that pve (they would have been playing everquest)
and your right, i shouldn't have let catacombs off the hook there, that changed the entire look of the game (which i still think looks great despite what people say about the graphics)
raiding aside, DAoC still has more depth then WoW ever will, thats pretty bad considering its the end all be all of mmos according to everyone
fact of the matter is, its a nice thing WoW is doing, changing the original zones, and its something more themepark MMOs should do to make it more interesting for re-rolls and new players, but the size of the content is minimal, this SHOULD be a free expansion
Yeah I understood your point, and we are obviously talking of content/size of the expansions, I was just saying the expansion's are not comparable, and mentioned their downfall because a ton of the content they promised in ToA was delayed until furthur "free expansions" NF was huge yes ( But they're still working on their class "dedicated class balancing/RA's" that came with NF all these years later ) so was TOA but they were both standard addon expansions that add a new content/quest ect, not changing the core part of the world drastically, this is huge, DAoC attempted this with the dragon campaigns, those were incredibly lame however. Yes I agree with you that WoW 's depth will never be what DAoC's was....I have not played an mmorpg that had the true world/depth feeling of DAoC. And I'd love for this to be a free expansion, but no mmorpg out there offers that much content for free ( aside from Lineage 2 which comes very close ) Either way, we seem to be 2 stop signs arguing with each other
P.S. they claim NF/housing were "free expansions" but do you remember after SI was launched NF/player housing/player mounts were promised in the next expansion, Instead, one expansion went retail lacking that specific content then future "free" expansions came with it.
your point about the class/ra balance is really a useless point, as nerfs and love happens in ALL mmos o_O
It was an added note and not the subject of my post.
S H A D O W H A N D
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Played - All mainstream MMORPGS/Many others.
Favorites- Dark Age of Camelot/mordred,Shadowbane , Old school Ultima Online
Zorndorf, i just have to say..... I agree.
(ouch, think I broke something there).
I think its a great idea to pull the players back together and give people a reason to revisit the original zones and not have large tracts of tired and worn out content just laying about.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Zorndorf, i just have to say..... I agree.
(ouch, think I broke something there).
I think its a great idea to pull the players back together and give people a reason to revisit the original zones and not have large tracts of tired and worn out content just laying about.
I think this is spot on in addressing something that is a problem in mmo that get older (especially ones with to many expansions).
Still, I am not sold that this is the right solution to prevent or reinvigorate old content. In the past I have had severe doubts about how blizzard handles things and to my surprise it almost always works out for the better, so it would be unwise for me to dismiss this as something bad without reason.
Yet I just can't look at it and say it sounds awesome. Maybe when more details come out.
The only REAL risk for any MMO expansion or "improvement" is pretty much changing the entire game, completely *cough* NGE *cough*.
To be honest, WoW's old area definitely needed a major overhal/improvements so this is probably well recieved by most WoW fans. I'll give this expansion a try but as of right now, I'm hooked on aion
I have to say, I did not even finish watching the trailer for it. The only interesting thing I saw was the archeology profession, that lets you customize skills or something.
I mean, they are repackaging the entire first part of the game......
.....?
Really? Sure, it will be phased but, mehhh. Ragnaros..onyxia...black rock mountain. Deadmines and that other lowbie instance.
Yeah. I Dunno. Don't hate the game or anything, but I can't understand how people can eat this all up <.<.
i can see why my friends left that game a while ago and have never returned. It looks like your playing a cartoon . seems outdated for a game now adays .
Let's remember for a second, this is all speculation, none of us know how successful or unsuccessful this expansion will really be.
Now my personal opinion as an ex-WoW 'r, I look forward to coming back for one thing. Flying in EK/Kalim.
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I'm actually pretty excited for this. I was already considering returning to WoW, and I think this seals the deal (albeit sometime down the road... likely Q2 or Q3 2010 or later). As others have said, I think re-doing existing areas was an excellent idea. Everquest seems like a ghost town now, not just because of fewer players, but because the expansions kept adding zones upon zones upon zones... so they ended up with like 300 empty zones because everyone went to play the newest content in the newest 25 zones (I'm just throwing numbers out there, I don't know the actual numbers of zones anymore, except that there are way too many of them). Giving players reason to re-visit old zones is a wonderful idea. The complete quest re-vamp (if I understand correctly) is a nice one too. I don't much care for the goblin race, but I think Worgens will be interesting. Won't necessarily add a huge new dynamic, but it might be fun to play a Worgen. I'm interested to see how the old-world revamp is going to affect major cities and dungeons too. Will Deadmines change? Will there be new instances? Will I finally be able to enter that annoying barred off instance portal in Stormwind? I quit the summer before Wrath of the Lich King and swore I was never coming back, but you know how that goes
The other thing is that some friends of mine recently moved back to WoW, so... friend gravity I guess. But I am really excited for the expansion. The one thing I'm not sure I like is the new class/race combos. I don't think they make much sense. Why can Taurens suddenly be paladins and priests? I don't really think priest and paladin fits with the Tauren background / culture at all. I don't think I like orc mages either, but that's a little more acceptable since they have always been playable warlocks... The gnome priests are odd too, but I guess they were in Gnomeregan. It just doesn't sit quite right with me. Oh well.
But for the record, I'm an MMO jumper mostly. I've played many different MMOs, liked most of them, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. When I get bored with the strengths of one I leave what's left behind and play a different game. The repetitive nature of most MMOs ensures that this will happen for me, and until an MMO comes along that significantly reduces repetitive grind, I'm perfectly happy game hopping to keep things fresh.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
Sounds like the stigma system to me.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
LOL at everyone on this board too funny. Face it blizz is an unstoppable force, they employ the best artists, writers, graphic designers, engine programmers and 3d designers in the business. This expansion will shatter all expectations sell millions of copies and millions of people will play and casually enjoy themselves while anime weirdos enjoy flying around with wings get tired and come back to WOW
. You know its going to happen. I played EQ, DAOC (thoroughly enjoyed them until they got ruined by bad ideas), EQ2, WAR (god what a horrible game), Vanguard (made by 10 yr olds game is terrible) and UO (not too into it for some odd reason). WOW is fun, casual and the best animations, graphic art style in the business. Go load up AOC, WAR, EQ2 sorry none of those games make me go wow thats really nice. Oh well enjoy the rest of the subpar 100 k sub games.
BTW STar wars TOR will be huge as well and I plan on playing that Guild Wars 2 and of course wow. Bioware will do a great job and probably be right up there with blizz as #2 mmo on the planet they're doing a great job (just dont expect an open world though its going to be alot of instancing).
This looks like the very definition of phoning it in to me. Old green bits of land? Add some fire and lava. Old desert bits of land? Add some green. Old firey bits of land? Add more fire. Need new races? Take some old graphics and make them playable (bet the talent trees for those will be really well thought through). Need new dungeons? Take old dungeons and make them heroic. Don't design anywhere new to go, just add flying mounts so people can go to the same places in a slightly different way. And don't forget the 'reskin - resize - rename' design method of new creatures. Great stuff.
Any news of them changing the 'stand there and hit something whilst being hit yourself until one of you falls over' combat method?
Nah. But here's lava where once there was grass. Epic.
Blizzard - milking the cash cow until the teats go purple.
The ruptured capillaries in your nose belie the clarity of your wisdom.
Ah ha, you'll be buying it and loggin in day one. I love these boards lol.
haha let the haters hate i mean thats what these boards are for.
Lies! First I have to buy several other MMOs, be profoundly disappointed in them, cry bitterly, weakly attempt to try and live a normal life and THEN go scurrying back to WoW. Once there I will proceed to bitch and whine endlessly about it until some other new MMOs appear.
Rinse, repeat.
The ruptured capillaries in your nose belie the clarity of your wisdom.
Lies! First I have to buy several other MMOs, be profoundly disappointed in them, cry bitterly, weakly attempt to try and live a normal life and THEN go scurrying back to WoW. Once there I will proceed to bitch and whine endlessly about it until some other new MMOs appear.
Rinse, repeat.
Sadly that seems to be the gameplan of many people here. All that anger for not having a replacement game has to go somewhere after all.