Originally posted by Dafong This is like arguing that you have the same job as a park keeper because you could go to the park at 9pm when it opens and leave at 5pm when it shuts so why should he get paid for being there?
The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job. The visitor doesn't do anything, and isn't paid.
Nobody in this thread has claimed "you should get rewarded for doing nothing", which makes me wonder if you're just here to troll.
There are jobs in life where you're on scheduled time, and jobs where you have some (or complete) freedom over what hours you work. These jobs aren't paid based on any of that, they're paid based on the difficulty of work done. You aren't paid more simply because you're on a team of 2000 people, nor are you paid less just because your park keeper job has you basically "soloing" most of the time.
You'll probably be paid more if you work longer hours, but that's the aspect of raid rewards I don't ahve as much problem with (if I have to do 3-hour-long solo content to get equivalent rewards to a 3-hour raid, that's fair...even if it doesn't really make a ton of sense to have 3-hour-long content period.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
With the above post, I know you have to work hard for what you get in anything, but why make it that way in a game? You go to work in RL and come home to...'work'. lol (just a slight observation, nothing more) ;0)
Ok, seriously .. I saw someone earlier in the thread tell you to lay off the analogies and they're absolutely right because you royally suck at them. Answer the question. What is the difference between those three people? Simply "having to be there" is not a valid answer. Leaving mid-raid is no different than leaving mid-group.
You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them.
Simply 'having to be there' is a valid answer. leaving Mid-raid is NOT the same as leaving mid-group. You cannot leave mid-raid consistently in any hardcore raid guild and expect to get picked for raids in the future, which will have a heavy impact on your enjoyment of the content.
Look at WoW for an example, 25 people to a raid, yet there are 35 people logged on wanting to raid that night in the guild. So that means 10 people will be left out, there is no way around that. You keep leaving mid-raid, you will be the one left out. Besides which you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hardcore raid guild if you left mid-raid more then once or twice, once you start making a habit of it you will be out on your ear, they don't want people who cannot commit the time.
How about, just for a change, you answre a question or a criticism of your decision.
How is turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like, comparable to having to be somewhere at a particular time, for a particular length of time and doing something that is mandated by someone else?
How the hell are they the same thing? How in your twisted mind did they amount to the same thing?
With the above post, I know you have to work hard for what you get in anything, but why make it that way in a game? You go to work in RL and come home to...'work'. lol (just a slight observation, nothing more) ;0)
Alright, time to go back to my WoW-crack. lol
Because if something is just given to you, and everyone else by extraction, then it has no value, it has no meaning.
If everyone was given a trillion dollars, the dollar would be worthless. So working for something gives it value.
This is the crux of the argument and it is why I don't play WoW anymore.
They have given everything to everyone and it has lost all meaning and value in having it.
Originally posted by Dafong Well I have never seen raiding in any game that didn't take longer then solo content, so that is kind of a moot argument, it may not be inherent to raiding but since every single incarnation of raiding has included it we might as well count it.
Well if you care about the truth of why games dish out better rewards, then it's important for us to track down the root reasons the content is rewarded better.
We shouldn't have idiots going around claiming raiding deserves better rewards if the truth was that longer content deserved better rewards. Those are significantly different things.
Also level of skill difficulty is not the major issue here. If it was merely about skill levels then raiding would offer no more rewards, there is no proof that raiding requires any more skill then solo or group content.
Yes, raiding doesn't innately require more skill than solo/group content. Although the currently implemented content (for the most part) does require more skill...which is why it makes sense for raiding to offer better rewards currently.
But it doesn't make sense for there to be zero challenging solo/group content.
As for difficulty being subjective? None of that matters - a game's difficulty only matters in relation to itself. Harder content yields better rewards.
You might as well base your opinion on an emotional response....do raiders love move then non-raiders? It is about as meaningful.
The relationship between difficulty and reward is intrinsic to good game design. Do something easy, get a reward. Do something hard, get a better reward.
Ironically your argument perfectly tears apart your own claim that "because I have to be there at a certain time, I should get better rewards." Unlike the relationship between difficulty and reward, your claim has little or no logical backing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well if you care about the truth of why games dish out better rewards, then it's important for us to track down the root reasons the content is rewarded better. We shouldn't have idiots going around claiming raiding deserves better rewards if the truth was that longer content deserved better rewards. Those are significantly different things.
Yes, raiding doesn't innately require more skill than solo/group content. Although the currently implemented content (for the most part) does require more skill...which is why it makes sense for raiding to offer better rewards currently. But it doesn't make sense for there to be zero challenging solo/group content. As for difficulty being subjective? None of that matters - a game's difficulty only matters in relation to itself. Harder content yields better rewards.
The relationship between difficulty and reward is intrinsic to good game design. Do something easy, get a reward. Do something hard, get a better reward. Ironically your argument perfectly tears apart your own claim that "because I have to be there at a certain time, I should get better rewards." Unlike the relationship between difficulty and reward, your claim has little or no logical backing.
As has been pointed out, the way raids are implemented requires very little skill on an individual level and as I have pointed out to you, its a subjective matter.
Do you understand what a subjective matter is? The idea is that when you measure something different people will record a different level off of the same people. What YOU think requires skill another person might not think that requires skill and may think something else requires skill.
No my argument does not tear apart my claim, because my claim is an OBJECTIVE matter, it means that no matter who measures, they will all measure the same thing.
As far as I am concerned skill level in raids is something that raiders kid themselves of to make themselves feel better. There is no skill involved, what there is is an amount of ineptitude that takes place that makes one group appear better then another by the lack of ineptitude, but a trained chimp could finish most of the raids in WoW and could have finished most of the raids in Everquest.
My argument is more simply an objective point.
If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
It should not reward solo players the same, for not having to do any of those things.
Ok, seriously .. I saw someone earlier in the thread tell you to lay off the analogies and they're absolutely right because you royally suck at them. Answer the question. What is the difference between those three people? Simply "having to be there" is not a valid answer. Leaving mid-raid is no different than leaving mid-group.
You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them.
Simply 'having to be there' is a valid answer. leaving Mid-raid is NOT the same as leaving mid-group. You cannot leave mid-raid consistently in any hardcore raid guild and expect to get picked for raids in the future, which will have a heavy impact on your enjoyment of the content.
Look at WoW for an example, 25 people to a raid, yet there are 35 people logged on wanting to raid that night in the guild. So that means 10 people will be left out, there is no way around that. You keep leaving mid-raid, you will be the one left out. Besides which you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hardcore raid guild if you left mid-raid more then once or twice, once you start making a habit of it you will be out on your ear, they don't want people who cannot commit the time.
How about, just for a change, you answre a question or a criticism of your decision.
How is turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like, comparable to having to be somewhere at a particular time, for a particular length of time and doing something that is mandated by someone else?
How the hell are they the same thing? How in your twisted mind did they amount to the same thing?
I don't like your analogies because they're stupid. You can attempt to glean some strange sense of superiority by my continuing to ignore them but make no mistake, The only reason that I ignore them is because they're stupid.
You keep leaving raids, you don't get invited to raids.
You keep leaving groups, you don't get invited to groups.
See the pattern? .. and for the love of god, don't even start with the "hardcore" drivel.
I'm going to say this again, because you seem to have some trouble grasping it and I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with answering my (very logical) question by arbitrarily changing the entire bloody nature of it before responding to a question I didn't ask.
A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm.
How exactly does that rearrange itself in your mind to "turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like" .. answer the damn question WITHOUT changing it.
These two people play for the exact same time and with the exact same commitment and these are the two values by which you have consistently measured the difference between groupers and raiders in this thread. So I ask you again, of these two people, who deserves the greater reward?
Answer this question, and if you can't do so without obfuscation and/or devolving into hypothetical gibberings, I will just write you off as simply yet another epeen-oriented forum troll.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't like your analogies because they're stupid. You can attempt to glean some strange sense of superiority by my continuing to ignore them but make no mistake, I ignore them because they're stupid. You keep leaving raid, you don't get invited to raids.
You keep leaving groups, you don't get invited to groups. See the pattern? .. and for the love of god, don't even start with the "hardcore" drivel. I'm going to say this again, because you seem to have some trouble grasping it and I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with answering my (very logical) question by arbitrarily changing the entire bloody nature of it before responding to a question I didn't ask. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm. How exactly does that rearrange itself in your mind to "turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like" .. answer the damn question WITHOUT changing it.
These two people play for the exact same time and with the exact same commitment and these are the two values by which you have consistently measured the difference between groupers and raiders in this thread. So I ask you again, of these two people, who deserves the greater reward? Answer this question, and if you can't do so without obfuscation and/or devolving into hypothetical gibberings, I will just write you off as simply yet another epeen-oriented forum troll.
How can you fail to accept that you are under no obligation to be on at that time?
That you could choose not to be on at that time, choose to play later and it make no difference?
Yet it would make a difference if you were raiding.
Originally posted by Dafong How can you fail to accept that you are under no obligation to be on at that time? That you could choose not to be on at that time, choose to play later and it make no difference? Yet it would make a difference if you were raiding.
You realise what you're saying is:
One has no obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 5-man dungeon run.
One has an obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 25-man dungeon run.
Aside from the difference in group members, what's the difference? .. how many people do you need before it becomes an obligation? Is it 25 because that's what suits your argument best?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
This is getting stupid, let's make some summary of this fruitful discussion and move on.
Originally posted by Dafong If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
As opposed argument was used statement that ingame effort should be valued more than real life time schedule.
There is nothing to argue about, those are two different opinions, two different views.
If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
It should not reward solo players the same, for not having to do any of those things.
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
Ok, seriously .. I saw someone earlier in the thread tell you to lay off the analogies and they're absolutely right because you royally suck at them. Answer the question. What is the difference between those three people? Simply "having to be there" is not a valid answer. Leaving mid-raid is no different than leaving mid-group.
You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them. Simply 'having to be there' is a valid answer. leaving Mid-raid is NOT the same as leaving mid-group. You cannot leave mid-raid consistently in any hardcore raid guild and expect to get picked for raids in the future, which will have a heavy impact on your enjoyment of the content. Look at WoW for an example, 25 people to a raid, yet there are 35 people logged on wanting to raid that night in the guild. So that means 10 people will be left out, there is no way around that. You keep leaving mid-raid, you will be the one left out. Besides which you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hardcore raid guild if you left mid-raid more then once or twice, once you start making a habit of it you will be out on your ear, they don't want people who cannot commit the time. How about, just for a change, you answre a question or a criticism of your decision.
How is turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like, comparable to having to be somewhere at a particular time, for a particular length of time and doing something that is mandated by someone else? How the hell are they the same thing? How in your twisted mind did they amount to the same thing?
I don't like your analogies because they're stupid. You can attempt to glean some strange sense of superiority by my continuing to ignore them but make no mistake, The only reason that I ignore them is because they're stupid. You keep leaving raids, you don't get invited to raids. You keep leaving groups, you don't get invited to groups. See the pattern? .. and for the love of god, don't even start with the "hardcore" drivel. I'm going to say this again, because you seem to have some trouble grasping it and I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with answering my (very logical) question by arbitrarily changing the entire bloody nature of it before responding to a question I didn't ask. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm. A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm. How exactly does that rearrange itself in your mind to "turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like" .. answer the damn question WITHOUT changing it.
These two people play for the exact same time and with the exact same commitment and these are the two values by which you have consistently measured the difference between groupers and raiders in this thread. So I ask you again, of these two people, who deserves the greater reward? Answer this question, and if you can't do so without obfuscation and/or devolving into hypothetical gibberings, I will just write you off as simply yet another epeen-oriented forum troll.
You're correct, but Dafong is not understanding you because he sees raiding as a job. He feels that he simply must be there at 6 and stay until 10. Because he feels forced to by his guild, or whoever, he feels that he deserves more reward. He's wrong, and probably not very clever, but there it is. That's what he's thinking. You could chose not to be online at 6 if you are just doing solo content. You could play from 7-11 if you wanted, or anything, and in his mind, that freedom means you deserve less.
The simple answer is that it is easier to do raids, actually. You build one decent raid and that lasts you for a while, because people need to farm it. Take any content patch with a raid in WoW. People act like it is a big deal, but it doesn't take that much dev time compared to the amount of unique content it would take to keep a soloist occupied for the same length of time. That's because the soloist is less inclined to do the same things on the same days over and over and over, which is what you have to do in a raid.
Now that I talk about it...it really does feel like a job. That's depressing. Some game.
EDIT:
Maybe I don't understand this mentality because I'm always a healer. I never agree to something ahead of time because something in the real world might come up, and that take priority. I just log on to whatever game I want and say "(healing class) looking for (whatever I want to do)," and I have a group in seconds. There are never enough healers, so I can do anything I want. Go me.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
One has no obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 5-man dungeon run.
One has an obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 25-man dungeon run. Aside from the difference in group members, what's the difference? .. how many people do you need before it becomes an obligation? Is it 25 because that's what suits your argument best?
That is not what is being said, what IS being said is this.
You can turn up at 7.30pm instead, or at 4am, or at 3pm in the afternoon and STILL take part in 5-man dungeon runs.
You can not do that with raiding. If you are not there at the pre-arranged time, you don't get to do the raid.
If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
It should not reward solo players the same, for not having to do any of those things.
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
Well it does, in the same way that a game makes you level up, that a games makes you loot for equipment, that a game makes y ou use your skill book or spell book.
You could choose not to do those things and therefore the game has not made you do anything, but then, what would be the point of you playing that game.
One has no obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 5-man dungeon run.
One has an obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 25-man dungeon run. Aside from the difference in group members, what's the difference? .. how many people do you need before it becomes an obligation? Is it 25 because that's what suits your argument best?
That is not what is being said, what IS being said is this.
You can turn up at 7.30pm instead, or at 4am, or at 3pm in the afternoon and STILL take part in 5-man dungeon runs.
You can not do that with raiding. If you are not there at the pre-arranged time, you don't get to do the raid.
How is that the same?
Selective reading does not excuse you from being wrong.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Selective reading does not excuse you from being wrong.
So your argument is that getting 25 people, which was chosen because that is the standard in WoW, is the same as getting 5 people online at the same time.
If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
It should not reward solo players the same, for not having to do any of those things.
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
Well it does, in the same way that a game makes you level up, that a games makes you loot for equipment, that a game makes y ou use your skill book or spell book.
You could choose not to do those things and therefore the game has not made you do anything, but then, what would be the point of you playing that game.
You are not arguing that leveling up should give you the same rewards as raiding since the game 'makes' you do both, are you?
Anyway you do not have to show up at a specific time to do raids. You can log in at anytime and just join/create a PuG raid.
You also seem to conveniently want to ignore the fact that you don't have to arrange 5-man content, you can turn up and join a random group at any time.
The fact that you pre-arranged it was a choice you did not have to make. With a raid involving 25 people it is not a choice, in high end raiding, you need to arrange to meet 24 other people at the right time, you can't just roll on with 24 random people and complete high end raid content.
You can roll on with 4 other random people and finish random 5 man content.
You are not arguing that leveling up should give you the same rewards as raiding since the game 'makes' you do both, are you? Anyway you do not have to show up at a specific time to do raids. You can log in at anytime and just join/create a PuG raid.
We are talking about high end raiding here, not Naxx.
You won't find PuGs downing Algalon for awhile yet.
Also what i am arguing is that if I turn up and put in more time and effort then you, shouldn't I be entitled to be a higher level? The opposite argument is, no I have played the same number of hours, therefore I am entiteld to be the same level, regardless of what I did during that playtime.
The fact that I was logged in while sleeping, shouldn't stop me being the same level as you.
Which is stupid when talking about MMORPGs yet here we are 10 pages later, and I am still trying to explaining it.
Originally posted by Dafong Do you understand what a subjective matter is? The idea is that when you measure something different people will record a different level off of the same people. What YOU think requires skill another person might not think that requires skill and may think something else requires skill.
Why are you even talking about that?
The discussion is about Rewards. Rewards are given out based on the relative difficulty of a game's own challenges.
If Boss A requires 10 skill and Boss B requires 20 skill, Boss B should yield better loot. Rewards are based on the objective comparison between bosses. We don't have numeric metrics to measure skill requirement, but it's pretty obvious that Boss B can be said to be "harder" if Boss B is exactly like Boss A, except he self-heals if you don't interrupt the spell..
Joe may have 5 skill and consider both bosses impossible, and Bob may have 40 skill and consider both bosses ridiculously easy. Sure that's subjective. But it's utterly inconsequential to the discussion at hand.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Everybody needs a game to suit their play styles. You cannot have solo content = group content. those 2 are polar oppisites Your going to end up pissing off both crowds if you try. Group/raid content will always have greater rewards, tough live with it or leave the PVE MMO's alone, because its not for you. Even if there is a strictly solo centric game where you can do anything solo, that game will be nothing but a flash in the pan lasting no longer than an single player RPG. It will either be 1 of 2 things; 1) a massive grind of epic proportions (to limit people from getting everything so fast), or 2) everyone running around wearing the exact same thing because any monkey with 2 brain cells can get the stuff. Ya thats really fun. Might as well just give everybody everything at the start I hope you guys get your solo centric game, just like I am hoping for another grouping game like ffxi since i beat that horse to death over a 4 year span.
I hope we get one too. It's about time there was a true solo friendly game in the genre, but I have serious doubts that it would be a flash in the pan and since it would be made for soloers, they would make some if not most of it challenging. Current games pruposefully make solo content easy and tedious in order to encourage grouping AND to justify greater rewards for groupers. Current developers want pecking orders in their games, specifically for the drama it creates. Lets not forget that developers can be just as self centered and egotisitcal as your typical raider and occasional grouper.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Why are you even talking about that? The discussion is about Rewards. Rewards are given out based on the relative difficulty of a game's own challenges. If Boss A requires 10 skill and Boss B requires 20 skill, Boss B should yield better loot. Rewards are based on the objective comparison between bosses. We don't have numeric metrics to measure skill requirement, but it's pretty obvious that Boss B can be said to be "harder" if Boss B is exactly like Boss A, except he self-heals if you don't interrupt the spell.. Joe may have 5 skill and consider both bosses impossible, and Bob may have 40 skill and consider both bosses ridiculously easy. Sure that's subjective. But it's utterly inconsequential to the discussion at hand.
Because the argument is that on an individual basis Person X displays no more skill in interupting Boss B then Person Y does interupting the Boss W of a 5-man instance.
Therefore the skill levels are the same and the rewards should be the same too.
Which is stupid, but what is your subjective argument against that? Oh noes it doesn't? Its an arbitrary measurement and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about that skill level.
Selective reading does not excuse you from being wrong.
So your argument is that getting 25 people, which was chosen because that is the standard in WoW, is the same as getting 5 people online at the same time.
Really, you think that holds water?
Yup. It takes 1 guy to say "Let's do a raid/group at 6pm" .. everyone else just needs to log in.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
With the above post, I know you have to work hard for what you get in anything, but why make it that way in a game? You go to work in RL and come home to...'work'. lol (just a slight observation, nothing more) ;0)
Alright, time to go back to my WoW-crack. lol
Amen to that. What the hell ever happened to being rewarded for playing the game. No matter your play style, you ARE playing the game and therefore should be rewarded for it.
This arbitrary scale of work, time investment crap is for the birds. If I wanted a game to be a job, I'd expect to be paid for it, not the other way around.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Dafong Because the argument is that on an individual basis Person X displays no more skill in interupting Boss B then Person Y does interupting the Boss W of a 5-man instance. Therefore the skill levels are the same and the rewards should be the same too. Which is stupid, but what is your subjective argument against that? Oh noes it doesn't? Its an arbitrary measurement and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about that skill level.
I don't have a subjective argument against that, because I agree with the objective conclusion:
The skill requirements are the same and the rewards should be the same.
Given equal difficulty (and duration) only the weakest of subjective rationale suggests that raiders should get better rewards. Slightly better rewards as a concession for dealing with the tedium and mob mentality associated with raiding is fair. But currently the difference can't be described as "slight". It's massive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job. The visitor doesn't do anything, and isn't paid.
Nobody in this thread has claimed "you should get rewarded for doing nothing", which makes me wonder if you're just here to troll.
There are jobs in life where you're on scheduled time, and jobs where you have some (or complete) freedom over what hours you work. These jobs aren't paid based on any of that, they're paid based on the difficulty of work done. You aren't paid more simply because you're on a team of 2000 people, nor are you paid less just because your park keeper job has you basically "soloing" most of the time.
You'll probably be paid more if you work longer hours, but that's the aspect of raid rewards I don't ahve as much problem with (if I have to do 3-hour-long solo content to get equivalent rewards to a 3-hour raid, that's fair...even if it doesn't really make a ton of sense to have 3-hour-long content period.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
With the above post, I know you have to work hard for what you get in anything, but why make it that way in a game? You go to work in RL and come home to...'work'. lol (just a slight observation, nothing more) ;0)
Alright, time to go back to my WoW-crack. lol
http://zazzle.com/drooling_tiger*
You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them.
Simply 'having to be there' is a valid answer. leaving Mid-raid is NOT the same as leaving mid-group. You cannot leave mid-raid consistently in any hardcore raid guild and expect to get picked for raids in the future, which will have a heavy impact on your enjoyment of the content.
Look at WoW for an example, 25 people to a raid, yet there are 35 people logged on wanting to raid that night in the guild. So that means 10 people will be left out, there is no way around that. You keep leaving mid-raid, you will be the one left out. Besides which you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hardcore raid guild if you left mid-raid more then once or twice, once you start making a habit of it you will be out on your ear, they don't want people who cannot commit the time.
How about, just for a change, you answre a question or a criticism of your decision.
How is turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like, comparable to having to be somewhere at a particular time, for a particular length of time and doing something that is mandated by someone else?
How the hell are they the same thing? How in your twisted mind did they amount to the same thing?
Because if something is just given to you, and everyone else by extraction, then it has no value, it has no meaning.
If everyone was given a trillion dollars, the dollar would be worthless. So working for something gives it value.
This is the crux of the argument and it is why I don't play WoW anymore.
They have given everything to everyone and it has lost all meaning and value in having it.
Well if you care about the truth of why games dish out better rewards, then it's important for us to track down the root reasons the content is rewarded better.
We shouldn't have idiots going around claiming raiding deserves better rewards if the truth was that longer content deserved better rewards. Those are significantly different things.
Yes, raiding doesn't innately require more skill than solo/group content. Although the currently implemented content (for the most part) does require more skill...which is why it makes sense for raiding to offer better rewards currently.
But it doesn't make sense for there to be zero challenging solo/group content.
As for difficulty being subjective? None of that matters - a game's difficulty only matters in relation to itself. Harder content yields better rewards.
The relationship between difficulty and reward is intrinsic to good game design. Do something easy, get a reward. Do something hard, get a better reward.
Ironically your argument perfectly tears apart your own claim that "because I have to be there at a certain time, I should get better rewards." Unlike the relationship between difficulty and reward, your claim has little or no logical backing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
As has been pointed out, the way raids are implemented requires very little skill on an individual level and as I have pointed out to you, its a subjective matter.
Do you understand what a subjective matter is? The idea is that when you measure something different people will record a different level off of the same people. What YOU think requires skill another person might not think that requires skill and may think something else requires skill.
No my argument does not tear apart my claim, because my claim is an OBJECTIVE matter, it means that no matter who measures, they will all measure the same thing.
As far as I am concerned skill level in raids is something that raiders kid themselves of to make themselves feel better. There is no skill involved, what there is is an amount of ineptitude that takes place that makes one group appear better then another by the lack of ineptitude, but a trained chimp could finish most of the raids in WoW and could have finished most of the raids in Everquest.
My argument is more simply an objective point.
If the game makes one group of players turn up at a specified time, for a specified duration to complete a specified task it should reward those players for making that effort.
It should not reward solo players the same, for not having to do any of those things.
You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them.
Simply 'having to be there' is a valid answer. leaving Mid-raid is NOT the same as leaving mid-group. You cannot leave mid-raid consistently in any hardcore raid guild and expect to get picked for raids in the future, which will have a heavy impact on your enjoyment of the content.
Look at WoW for an example, 25 people to a raid, yet there are 35 people logged on wanting to raid that night in the guild. So that means 10 people will be left out, there is no way around that. You keep leaving mid-raid, you will be the one left out. Besides which you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a hardcore raid guild if you left mid-raid more then once or twice, once you start making a habit of it you will be out on your ear, they don't want people who cannot commit the time.
How about, just for a change, you answre a question or a criticism of your decision.
How is turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like, comparable to having to be somewhere at a particular time, for a particular length of time and doing something that is mandated by someone else?
How the hell are they the same thing? How in your twisted mind did they amount to the same thing?
I don't like your analogies because they're stupid. You can attempt to glean some strange sense of superiority by my continuing to ignore them but make no mistake, The only reason that I ignore them is because they're stupid.
You keep leaving raids, you don't get invited to raids.
You keep leaving groups, you don't get invited to groups.
See the pattern? .. and for the love of god, don't even start with the "hardcore" drivel.
I'm going to say this again, because you seem to have some trouble grasping it and I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with answering my (very logical) question by arbitrarily changing the entire bloody nature of it before responding to a question I didn't ask.
A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does group content 'til 10pm.
A guy who logs on at 6pm every day and does raid content 'til 10pm.
How exactly does that rearrange itself in your mind to "turning up when you like, doing what you like, for as long as you like" .. answer the damn question WITHOUT changing it.
These two people play for the exact same time and with the exact same commitment and these are the two values by which you have consistently measured the difference between groupers and raiders in this thread. So I ask you again, of these two people, who deserves the greater reward?
Answer this question, and if you can't do so without obfuscation and/or devolving into hypothetical gibberings, I will just write you off as simply yet another epeen-oriented forum troll.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
How can you fail to accept that you are under no obligation to be on at that time?
That you could choose not to be on at that time, choose to play later and it make no difference?
Yet it would make a difference if you were raiding.
You realise what you're saying is:
One has no obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 5-man dungeon run.
One has an obligation to turn up to a pre-arranged 6 hour long 25-man dungeon run.
Aside from the difference in group members, what's the difference? .. how many people do you need before it becomes an obligation? Is it 25 because that's what suits your argument best?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
This is getting stupid, let's make some summary of this fruitful discussion and move on.
As opposed argument was used statement that ingame effort should be valued more than real life time schedule.
There is nothing to argue about, those are two different opinions, two different views.
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
You're correct, but Dafong is not understanding you because he sees raiding as a job. He feels that he simply must be there at 6 and stay until 10. Because he feels forced to by his guild, or whoever, he feels that he deserves more reward. He's wrong, and probably not very clever, but there it is. That's what he's thinking. You could chose not to be online at 6 if you are just doing solo content. You could play from 7-11 if you wanted, or anything, and in his mind, that freedom means you deserve less.
The simple answer is that it is easier to do raids, actually. You build one decent raid and that lasts you for a while, because people need to farm it. Take any content patch with a raid in WoW. People act like it is a big deal, but it doesn't take that much dev time compared to the amount of unique content it would take to keep a soloist occupied for the same length of time. That's because the soloist is less inclined to do the same things on the same days over and over and over, which is what you have to do in a raid.
Now that I talk about it...it really does feel like a job. That's depressing. Some game.
EDIT:
Maybe I don't understand this mentality because I'm always a healer. I never agree to something ahead of time because something in the real world might come up, and that take priority. I just log on to whatever game I want and say "(healing class) looking for (whatever I want to do)," and I have a group in seconds. There are never enough healers, so I can do anything I want. Go me.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
That is not what is being said, what IS being said is this.
You can turn up at 7.30pm instead, or at 4am, or at 3pm in the afternoon and STILL take part in 5-man dungeon runs.
You can not do that with raiding. If you are not there at the pre-arranged time, you don't get to do the raid.
How is that the same?
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
Well it does, in the same way that a game makes you level up, that a games makes you loot for equipment, that a game makes y ou use your skill book or spell book.
You could choose not to do those things and therefore the game has not made you do anything, but then, what would be the point of you playing that game.
That is not what is being said, what IS being said is this.
You can turn up at 7.30pm instead, or at 4am, or at 3pm in the afternoon and STILL take part in 5-man dungeon runs.
You can not do that with raiding. If you are not there at the pre-arranged time, you don't get to do the raid.
How is that the same?
Selective reading does not excuse you from being wrong.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
So your argument is that getting 25 people, which was chosen because that is the standard in WoW, is the same as getting 5 people online at the same time.
Really, you think that holds water?
What do you mean that the game 'makes' you do something? That seems to be the key point in your argument about distinguishing between why raid content should be treated differntly then sole/small group content.
Well it does, in the same way that a game makes you level up, that a games makes you loot for equipment, that a game makes y ou use your skill book or spell book.
You could choose not to do those things and therefore the game has not made you do anything, but then, what would be the point of you playing that game.
You are not arguing that leveling up should give you the same rewards as raiding since the game 'makes' you do both, are you?
Anyway you do not have to show up at a specific time to do raids. You can log in at anytime and just join/create a PuG raid.
You also seem to conveniently want to ignore the fact that you don't have to arrange 5-man content, you can turn up and join a random group at any time.
The fact that you pre-arranged it was a choice you did not have to make. With a raid involving 25 people it is not a choice, in high end raiding, you need to arrange to meet 24 other people at the right time, you can't just roll on with 24 random people and complete high end raid content.
You can roll on with 4 other random people and finish random 5 man content.
Why won't you accept that simple truth?
We are talking about high end raiding here, not Naxx.
You won't find PuGs downing Algalon for awhile yet.
Also what i am arguing is that if I turn up and put in more time and effort then you, shouldn't I be entitled to be a higher level? The opposite argument is, no I have played the same number of hours, therefore I am entiteld to be the same level, regardless of what I did during that playtime.
The fact that I was logged in while sleeping, shouldn't stop me being the same level as you.
Which is stupid when talking about MMORPGs yet here we are 10 pages later, and I am still trying to explaining it.
Why are you even talking about that?
The discussion is about Rewards. Rewards are given out based on the relative difficulty of a game's own challenges.
If Boss A requires 10 skill and Boss B requires 20 skill, Boss B should yield better loot. Rewards are based on the objective comparison between bosses. We don't have numeric metrics to measure skill requirement, but it's pretty obvious that Boss B can be said to be "harder" if Boss B is exactly like Boss A, except he self-heals if you don't interrupt the spell..
Joe may have 5 skill and consider both bosses impossible, and Bob may have 40 skill and consider both bosses ridiculously easy. Sure that's subjective. But it's utterly inconsequential to the discussion at hand.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I hope we get one too. It's about time there was a true solo friendly game in the genre, but I have serious doubts that it would be a flash in the pan and since it would be made for soloers, they would make some if not most of it challenging. Current games pruposefully make solo content easy and tedious in order to encourage grouping AND to justify greater rewards for groupers. Current developers want pecking orders in their games, specifically for the drama it creates. Lets not forget that developers can be just as self centered and egotisitcal as your typical raider and occasional grouper.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Because the argument is that on an individual basis Person X displays no more skill in interupting Boss B then Person Y does interupting the Boss W of a 5-man instance.
Therefore the skill levels are the same and the rewards should be the same too.
Which is stupid, but what is your subjective argument against that? Oh noes it doesn't? Its an arbitrary measurement and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about that skill level.
So your argument is that getting 25 people, which was chosen because that is the standard in WoW, is the same as getting 5 people online at the same time.
Really, you think that holds water?
Yup. It takes 1 guy to say "Let's do a raid/group at 6pm" .. everyone else just needs to log in.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Amen to that. What the hell ever happened to being rewarded for playing the game. No matter your play style, you ARE playing the game and therefore should be rewarded for it.
This arbitrary scale of work, time investment crap is for the birds. If I wanted a game to be a job, I'd expect to be paid for it, not the other way around.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I don't have a subjective argument against that, because I agree with the objective conclusion:
Given equal difficulty (and duration) only the weakest of subjective rationale suggests that raiders should get better rewards. Slightly better rewards as a concession for dealing with the tedium and mob mentality associated with raiding is fair. But currently the difference can't be described as "slight". It's massive.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver