Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy.
I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't like any part of it at all.As a matter of fact ,i doubt ANYONE actually likes it,the ONLY reason players do it,is for drops or to finish a quest,there is nothing special about it other than those two reasons.If you took away the drops and the quest,would players take part in Raiding just for the sake of it?or the fun of it?
Let's say developers all of a sudden made the design ,so you had to 1 on 1 battle a boss for the best drops in the game.Would anyone care about raiding anymore?answer is a big fat NO.
Lets say the developer made crafting produce the best drops,and NO you don't need to raid to get the drops for crafting,simple rare harvests would allow it.I bet you would see all those Raiding players out harvesting 24/7 looking for those rares.Or they would cry about it and say crafting sucks.SO would the players then Raid for green drops instead of those purples?again nope.
You know why?because there is nothing l33t or able to show off your ego in crafting.Raiding is a stigma that players think,"look at me i'm leet".So they get to attach a stereotype that makes them l33t and they get the best drops,so they think raiding is it..pfft it's nothing to me.
The other part that shows th flaw of the design,is the fact that so many want the uber drops,so they have to put Raiding into instances to overcome the traffic.I know EQ2 managed a Raid scenario out in the open against a few dragons through the guild options,but for the most part Raiding is 99% instances.Instances are a VERY cheap way to implement anything into a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You are not arguing that leveling up should give you the same rewards as raiding since the game 'makes' you do both, are you? Anyway you do not have to show up at a specific time to do raids. You can log in at anytime and just join/create a PuG raid.
We are talking about high end raiding here, not Naxx.
You won't find PuGs downing Algalon for awhile yet.
Also what i am arguing is that if I turn up and put in more time and effort then you, shouldn't I be entitled to be a higher level? The opposite argument is, no I have played the same number of hours, therefore I am entiteld to be the same level, regardless of what I did during that playtime.
The fact that I was logged in while sleeping, shouldn't stop me being the same level as you.
Which is stupid when talking about MMORPGs yet here we are 10 pages later, and I am still trying to explaining it.
And if I log in and put in more time and effort then is required of a raider while playing solo and/or doing 5mans then I should be entitled to better rewards than raiding, correct?
Also why is beating Algalon giving out better rewards than beating Naxx if the time and scheduling requirements are rpetty much the same?
Originally posted by Dafong Originally posted by Axehilt Why are you even talking about that? The discussion is about Rewards. Rewards are given out based on the relative difficulty of a game's own challenges. If Boss A requires 10 skill and Boss B requires 20 skill, Boss B should yield better loot. Rewards are based on the objective comparison between bosses. We don't have numeric metrics to measure skill requirement, but it's pretty obvious that Boss B can be said to be "harder" if Boss B is exactly like Boss A, except he self-heals if you don't interrupt the spell.. Joe may have 5 skill and consider both bosses impossible, and Bob may have 40 skill and consider both bosses ridiculously easy. Sure that's subjective. But it's utterly inconsequential to the discussion at hand.
Because the argument is that on an individual basis Person X displays no more skill in interupting Boss B then Person Y does interupting the Boss W of a 5-man instance.
Therefore the skill levels are the same and the rewards should be the same too.
Which is stupid, but what is your subjective argument against that? Oh noes it doesn't? Its an arbitrary measurement and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about that skill level.
You just proved your own argument invalid. If a boss requires (to use Axehilt's idea) 20 skill from five players in a five-man dungeon, and a different boss takes 20 skill from 25 players in a 25-man dungeon, both bosses should yield comparable rewards.
You are trying to say that because it is more difficult to get 25 people in the same room and on the same page, you should get better rewards. That doesn't make sense, as it has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Say I am in a guild that can and does run 25 mans on a whim. It doesn't take me more time or effort to kill that 25 -man 20 skill boss as it would for me to get into a five-man group and kill that five-man 20 skill boss.
I am starting think you are one of three things:
1) A very bad troll. 2) Incredibly, incredibly stupid. 3) Desperate to maintain your pixel epeen by asserting (falsely) that 25 man content is more difficult and harder to handle than five-man content. (This is of course assuming all 25 people or all five people have the same skill levels.)
I am really not sure which is true. Can you tell us?
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by Dafong You don't like my analogies because you have no answer for them.
I'm reminded of Barney Frank. Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy. I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
I remember watching that on C-Span. That was incredible.
Dafong, on what planet do you spend most of your time?
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
for me it was simply getting together with a group of friends/guildies and taking on a BBEG in a dungeon (which gets more love than the standard level to cap dungeons). The variety of the raids (even in WoW) also attracts me. I suppose it's something to do with my love for instances.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds -Solid non level based game -Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
I was a big raider back in my EQ days and carried that through alot of games. I raided to "see" the content though .. not for the loot. A vast majority of my raiding friends did have the "better then thou" attitude though and its one I dont really understand.
Raiding is no harded than grouping or soloing from a play-skill perspective. Infact raiding allows less skilled players to "coast" along alot of the time. Sure cutting edge raiding means being on your top game but thats a very small minority of actual raiders, most people who claim to be raiders are the same ones who quickly run to the forums for walk-throughs and strat guides because they lack the ability to review combat logs and adapt themselves. Until you've spent hours reading over combat logs and breaking down new boss fights your not a raider .. your a carebear with a walkthough who just thinks they are a shit-hot raider.
As for the time Vs effort shit being touted in this thread. GET REAL.
Even hardcore raiders spend alot more time outside the raid environment working towards goals than in it. If it was just a time = reward thing raider would get nothing special. Someone can spend hours each day progressing thier character and get a few faction patterns for crafting .. a raider can raid a few nights a week and get phat loots? The time = reward argument is stupid so you need to drop it right away.
WoW has lost most of that difficulty in its efforts to become more casual.
People get hung up on the Time = reward or the effort = reward arguments. That has never really been the argument for better gear. The better gear equation has always been Time + Effort = reward. (Effort meaning difficulty) Lets face it .. there is no "difficulty" in WoW anymore. Its a system of gear checks. The bosses in the new raids are no harder than the older ones (hell most are easier technically) they just require you to have X gear set. Thats not difficulty thats TIME.
So now Blizzard is rewarding casuals that put in the time with better gear. Honestly thats all raiders do .. put in time. Why are you crying? As long as its taking a balanced amount of TIME I really dont see an issue with it. (If it take a raid of 25 people 5hours to get 8 pieces of gear thats 15.5 Man hours per item (I rounded ) so if a solo player is putting in 15.5 Man hours whats your QQ point? Its "harder" for you to get 25 people online at the same time? Gimme a break .. get friends with wristwatches and you'll be fine.
You should raid because you like to raid. I only raided because i enjoyed it .. if I did'ent I would'ent raid. Would I be pissed if someone get phat loot from soloing instead of raiding? Not if he'd put in the same man-hours as my raid ... now if hes getting that loot strolling around with his thumb up his arse? Yer I'd have issue ... thats simply not that case though so man up and deal with it.
Bottom line if your all upset because casuals are getting loot for NOT raiding ... thats telling me one thing, Raiding for you is WORK .. something that you really dont want to do and only do for the shiney at the end. Take my advice .. join the casuals and get your phat loots that way. You'll be less buttsore and we wont have to listen to you bitch. Raid because you enjoy it .. its a freaking game after all ... not because you think that doing this "tedious chore" will make you magically "better" than everyone else.
Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy.
I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
I see Barney Frank is the new Captain Picard of those on the internet who think they have debated a point well.
Your response was to talk about the difficulty of a park keepers job. A park keeper. Difficult.
His payment has nothing to do with the fact that he has to be there at a set time, and you don't, it has nothing to do with the fact that he has to stay there all day, and you don't. No, it is all based around some sort of difficulty level in being a park keeper.
I didn't respond, because I thought you were making a joke.
And if I log in and put in more time and effort then is required of a raider while playing solo and/or doing 5mans then I should be entitled to better rewards than raiding, correct?
Yes I have agreed as much already in this thread.
If solo or group content required you to log in 3 nights a week for 5 hours and you couldn't log without failing the objectives, then you should be entitled to the same loot.
"Also why is beating Algalon giving out better rewards than beating Naxx if the time and scheduling requirements are rpetty much the same?"
The thing about killing Algalon, or other 'end bosses' is not that it takes more skill, it simply requires that you have cleared Naxx, and you have cleared Ulduar. So you have already put in more effort then those who only beat Naxx. The time requirements are not the same. While the time logged in is, it is like saying, why don't i get 10,000 gold and 2m XP when I hand in 10 fox pelts at level 1, but he gets that reward when he hands in 10 dragon pelts at level 80.
Are we to claim that killing those dragons at level 80 was any harder then the foxes at level 1? Of course they weren't, it is simply that it took him ages to get to level 80 and thus the rewards are better.
Originally posted by Dafong Your response was to talk about the difficulty of a park keepers job. A park keeper. Difficult. His payment has nothing to do with the fact that he has to be there at a set time, and you don't, it has nothing to do with the fact that he has to stay there all day, and you don't. No, it is all based around some sort of difficulty level in being a park keeper. I didn't respond, because I thought you were making a joke.
As others have pointed out, you're an idiot or a troll.
My quote from #77: "The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job."
His job isn't very difficult; he's also not paid much. But he's paid more than the person who did absolutely nothing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The original topic here was "What Do You Like About Raiding / End-Game?". One poster posted off-topic and started an argument. That argument has now spanned nearly 11 pages (not counting the first page which was still mostly on topic). There's a word for people who do that. Anyway, if it's a topic that interests you, feel free to post a thread with that as the subject. This thread however, has a different subject ENTIRELY. If the off-topic debate continues, I'm going to have to look into getting the thread locked. At this point, it's just a massive pile of troll food. Those who have remained on topic, thank you. Your opinions are interesting and valuable. The debate at hand could make for an interesting thread. Sadly, this is not that thread, and sifting through the troll food to find relevant replies is not at all interesting.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
As others have pointed out, you're an idiot or a troll. My quote from #77: "The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job." His job isn't very difficult; he's also not paid much. But he's paid more than the person who did absolutely nothing.
I am an idiot, you have just made my point and called me an idiot while you made it? How stupid are you?
Yes the other person did nothing, but they were still in the park. How come they got nothing, if not based on difficulty, as I said, was it because he had to be there and they did not?
Yes it is.
And what has been my argument through this entire debacle?
That people who raid are required to be somewhere by hte game designers and people who do group content can do it when they like with no requirement to do it at anytime, and until that requirement is in place, group/solo content should not offer the same rewards.
So you have completely agreed with my point, and called me an idiot while you did it. Well done.
It seems that post-WoW MMOs are starting to focus more on making the leveling process faster so that end-game content can be reached more quickly. WoW itself has been taking steps to decrease its leveling time as well. Personally, I enjoy leveling a lot, and I'm not sure if I would enjoy raiding or not. Because I enjoy leveling so much, I usually have a ton of alts and jump games a lot. I've only been to level cap on DAoC (which is probably one of 10+ MMOs I've played); the closest I've come to cap in any other game is lv 64 in WoW when the cap was 70. Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
This is one of the few rare opportunities where I respond without reading the whole thread first and only because I been reading a lot all day. Was practicing programming C and reading about Lua and a novel on top of it all.
Anyways, before I digress too much, I would say I like absolutely NOTHING about raiding and end game and its starting to turn some popular games very 1-dimensional. I would much prefer other ways introduced in playing a game that might offer rewards on par to the "current end-game".
And whats with this concept of "end-game", whats the point of leveling then if most of the game is when I get to the maximum level? If there is so much emphasis on the end-game, why not just eliminate the leveling prerequisite and let the players have fun and get their MONEYS worth (oh I guess thats the key thing isn't it, *sigh* companies).
I think its absurd and games should take a step back and take lessons from the earlier MMORPGs. Make achieving maximum level actually something to brag about rather than a prerequisite for access to the other "half" of the game. I used to pride myself on DAoC for being mid level 40s (think max level was 50 at the time) and I never achieved maximum level in that game, but that never stopped me from feeling good being at that level, like I am amongst the upper echelon in the world (it was a game where death penalty involved a hefty exp loss). Make death penalties actually make people NOT want to die rather then not care, it seems like all I can get mad about in regards to dying is a 1 minute run to my "corpse". I would't mind if I saw some gold missing from my corpse or a random item in my inventory or something. Make the game exciting, you developers
As others have pointed out, you're an idiot or a troll. My quote from #77: "The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job." His job isn't very difficult; he's also not paid much. But he's paid more than the person who did absolutely nothing.
I am an idiot, you have just made my point and called me an idiot while you made it? How stupid are you?
Yes the other person did nothing, but they were still in the park. How come they got nothing, if not based on difficulty, as I said, was it because he had to be there and they did not?
Yes it is.
And what has been my argument through this entire debacle?
That people who raid are required to be somewhere by hte game designers and people who do group content can do it when they like with no requirement to do it at anytime, and until that requirement is in place, group/solo content should not offer the same rewards.
So you have completely agreed with my point, and called me an idiot while you did it. Well done.
Basically what I get from your post is this: "Because I managed to get 25 ppl online I deserve better loot"... No where in that sentence the skill of a player its involved. So youre actually being rewarded something better for the simple fact of knowning more ppl or being in a bigger guild.
When a game content difficulty lies over the ammount of ppl you can get, well, I dont think that speak well of the game.
The difficulty has to be inherent to the Dungeon and not to how hard is to get ppl at the same time, at the same day.
Youre right. Getting 25 ppl online at the same time, at the same day might be harder, but that does not make the Dungeon harder. If THE GAME CONTENT is not harded why should you get better rewards?
Rewards are based on the difficulty of the game content, not on how many ppl you know or on how big your guild is.
Originally posted by Draco91 The original topic here was "What Do You Like About Raiding / End-Game?". One poster posted off-topic and started an argument. That argument has now spanned nearly 11 pages (not counting the first page which was still mostly on topic). There's a word for people who do that. Anyway, if it's a topic that interests you, feel free to post a thread with that as the subject. This thread however, has a different subject ENTIRELY. If the off-topic debate continues, I'm going to have to look into getting the thread locked. At this point, it's just a massive pile of troll food. Those who have remained on topic, thank you. Your opinions are interesting and valuable. The debate at hand could make for an interesting thread. Sadly, this is not that thread, and sifting through the troll food to find relevant replies is not at all interesting.
You are right, and I apologize for helping to feed the troll.
As per your topic, I don't really like "end games" or games that use that idea. Take the example someone else had of EVE. Eve doesn't really have an endgame. Yes, you will increase in power and versatility as you continue (you don't increase in a way that feels organic to me, but that's a different story) to play, as well you should, but there is no point where you can say, "I beat the game." That's because there is no "end game" idea and no "end game" content. CCP created a massive and engaging world, and they attracted players that manage to run the world themselves. It is an ongoing set of relationships/conflicts that continues but doesn't end. Most sandbox/pvp games can give you this, but some cannot.
Take GW. One of my favorite games, to play. It is not a game that feels like a world to me, and doesn't really have a serious community to speak of until you get into, yes, "end game" pvp. Of course, you can start a max-level person and only pvp with them, in fact this is encouraged. But there are four campaigns now, and when you beat them, you've beaten the game as it is, and are only left with very controlled pvp. So even though there is a community based around the pvp, and in and out of game relationships forged as a result (which is usually good for a game), it is still the "end game" so I feel that I'm done.
EDIT:
I want to add something about EVE that makes it amazing. Your equipment will wear out over time, and you will have to get new equipment, whereas in most MMOs you can simply repair it ad infinitum. Add to that the fact that equipment is player crafted (i.e. you cannot raid pve constantly and expect to outfit yourself with the ships and lasers or whatever that you need. At least, I don't think this is the case now.) and you have, amazingly, a real and active player-run economy within this harsh pvp reality.
Players control everything that happens in the world. And that one idea is what we need in our games. The devs just need to give us those worlds.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Raiding as end game is the most moronic ideal ever tossed into an mmo. Outside of large scale pvp raids its serves no function other than to let people flex their epeen. Raiding does not equal skill it just equals less of a real life to dedicate to the 4+ nighs of 5+ hours raiding. I would rather see endgames be long involved storyline quests or even small group content. The worst part about raiding is the people who do it hardcore i have seen their ilk destroy many guilds. My favorite raider quote to me was that I should lock my kids in their room and get my priorities straight. That is raider mentality and that is why I place them one step above pedophiles in categories of people I can not tolerate. Old raiders I can tolerate because it seems to me the whole community had more class back in EQ and DAoC but this new group of players is sorely lacking in any socially redeeming qualities.
The amount of bullshit and ignorance in this thread is amazing.
A bunch of people who raided Everquest and vanilla wow thinking they know about current high end wow raiding and throwing around the name "Algalon" like it makes it seem they know what they are talking about.
Anyone who thinks WoW raiding takes absolutely no skill has never fought bosses such as Mimiron and Yog Saron on normal mode - yet alone hard modes. Those bosses are not remotely gear checks. They are all about skill. Having 10 or 25 people move in co-ordination with each-other. All in the right places and doing the right things at the same time.
WowProgress.com tracks raid progress. Lets look at it's 25 man statistics. It reports that 20% or the guilds it is tracking have completed the first part of Ulduar (the siege area). However, only 6% have killed the end boss Yog Saron, and only 0.58% have completed Firefighter (Mimiron hard mode).
It's been my experience that any guild that has the gear to clear the first four bosses (the siege) has the gear to clear Ulduar. There are no real gear check bosses. So the difference between that 20% and the 6% that have killed Yog Saron is entirely in skill. Nothing else. This contrasts heavily with vanilla wow raiding, which had lots of gear check bosses - such as Ragnaros, who you couldn't even think about defeating until you had loads of fire res gear.
And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...
As for the claim that solo content can be made as hard as raiding - that's complete crap. Maybe 5 man content can. There's a good chance 10-man can. But solo - no way.
There's a simple reason why. The classes are not balanced around solo play. Not remotely. So something that, for example, a priest finds extremely challenging might be a walk in the park for a strong soloing class such as a feral druid. Some classes can solo incredibly well. For example, I read recently about a blood spec'd death knight who had soloed Loken from the Halls of Lightning heroic - one of the hardest 5-man bosses in Warcraft. There is simply no way players of most classes could even imagine doing that. Any non-tank class would probably be pulverised in seconds.
So, without completely redesigning the game and it's classes, how can you possibly construct solo challenges that are considered difficult for all classes? There are only two avenues open. One - use big grinds. Or secondly, you can make the challenge rely on non-class abilities. For example, a challenge that relied almost entirely on movement, maybe something like playing pocket simon with your character, without using most of your class abiltiies and skills. But I doubt that would be very popular with players - since most people enjoy playing their character with all the skills it has earned as it has levelled up.
...And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...
I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).
Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).
The Reason I quit WoW was mostly because of noobs ruining my raiding experience. Even with T7(10 man) in WoW, I was dealing nearly 4k dps in Naxx consistently. This is on a huntard, after nerfs, of course. Before I quit, I had 4pc T8(25 man) and barely got to use it, lol. Anyway, Ulduar isn't so Hunter friendly but I'd get over 5k mostly. There were countless numbers of people in my guild with good gear. Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.
What I love about End Game is RAIDING! I log on only for raids. That's it. I set myself up so I sell Jewels on the AH to pay for repairs and that's it. I love to be the first, or fighting to be first, on the server to do something as a guild. Damn my friends, I quit WoW before and then they started playing. Alliance... Of course... If they told me that they were playing again I would have made them go Horde. maybe I'd still be playing.
...And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...
I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).
Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).
That would make it exactly the same as any skill in the real world. Skills take time and practice to develop. Tiger woods wasn't the best golf player in the world the first time he picked up a golf club. And different people learn skills at different rates. Some never learn them. And TBH, it sounds to me like you simply don't understand because you've had very little experience of raiding. You haven't held fealt the incredible frustration of wiping 10 times in a row on a boss that you fealt was easy because many other people in your raid were still stuggling to move correctly, simply because half your raid lacked skill. And the most important skill in wow raiding is the ability to learn quickly - without it, you will be wiping on the early bosses again and again. With it, and even casual guilds can conquer Ulduar.
As for your complaints about heroics, to a large extent I agree with you. Wrath of the Lich King heroics failed badly. They are simply too easy. Most normal mode level 80 dungeons can be easily completed by a group of 78 players, and many players progress to heroics within a week of hitting 80. They are far too easy for any experienced player. It's stupid that they now offer some of the best rewards in the game - but that's Blizzard's attempt to cater to whiners.
As for putting crazy long grinds to get the best gear. Why? Soloers already have ways to get a fair number of decent upgrades (e.g. through the Argent Tournament). At the moment the best gear in the game is available through skill - making equal gear available through grinding would, in my opinion, cheapen the game. And what would happen - well for the truely hardcore, the progression would be obvious - they would do the grinds, and the raids, and get both sets of gear. Because that's how truely hardcore people play. So they'd still have much better gear than you. The difference is that they'd now also have better gear than the skillful non-hardcore players.
Originally posted by Xyfire1 Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.
Agree completely - any DPS who can't pull at least 3.5k DPS in Ulduar 25 shouldn't be there. They either lack skill or gear. And the gear is pretty easy to get in Naxx, so most failures are due to lack of skill.
Personally, I was always amazed at the number of idiots who couldn't even avoid Flash Freeze on Hodir. That boss is so easy....
That would make it exactly the same as any skill in the real world. Skills take time and practice to develop. Tiger woods wasn't the best golf player in the world the first time he picked up a golf club. And different people learn skills at different rates. Some never learn them. And TBH, it sounds to me like you simply don't understand because you've had very little experience of raiding. You haven't held fealt the incredible frustration of wiping 10 times in a row on a boss that you fealt was easy because many other people in your raid were still stuggling to move correctly, simply because half your raid lacked skill. And the most important skill in wow raiding is the ability to learn quickly - without it, you will be wiping on the early bosses again and again. With it, and even casual guilds can conquer Ulduar.
As for your complaints about heroics, to a large extent I agree with you. Wrath of the Lich King heroics failed badly. They are simply too easy. Most normal mode level 80 dungeons can be easily completed by a group of 78 players, and many players progress to heroics within a week of hitting 80. They are far too easy for any experienced player. It's stupid that they now offer some of the best rewards in the game - but that's Blizzard's attempt to cater to whiners.
As for putting crazy long grinds to get the best gear. Why? Soloers already have ways to get a fair number of decent upgrades (e.g. through the Argent Tournament). At the moment the best gear in the game is available through skill - making equal gear available through grinding would, in my opinion, cheapen the game. And what would happen - well for the truely hardcore, the progression would be obvious - they would do the grinds, and the raids, and get both sets of gear. Because that's how truely hardcore people play. So they'd still have much better gear than you. The difference is that they'd now also have better gear than the skillful non-hardcore players.
I guess the difference between skill and "experience and knowledge" is that, I (along with 9 or 24 other people) can watch a video and greatly improve our chances on defeating a boss. That didn't mean upon watching the video I acquired some amount of skill that I didn't possess in the past, but it has helped the chances of not wiping none-the-less without practice. In terms of skill, I compare it to like playing the piano and by this regard, everybody in the game has been practicing and honing "skill" while playing their character and fulfilling their appropriate roles. Not to say you don't need to acquire this form of skill, but you cannot discount the importance of knowing what you are doing and seeing it done successfully by someone else. Most raid encounters have more to do with a combination of group coordination, fulfilling your role well, and gear.
You're quite wrong in regards to my experience in raids, I have raided once a week before and know how it feels to fail and succeed alongside my guild. The PvE in terms of raiding in WoW have never fallen short, but at the same time has been WoW's only great emphasis.
When I think in terms of a long quest lines etc. (I was thinking in terms of grind, it should be an enriched experience hence where RPG originated from), I was actually thinking more along the lines of more 1-2 hour long group type activities more so than just solo dailies/quests. More diversity would enrich the experience of the game as a whole to hardcore and casual alike. I agree that skill should be rewarded but I disagree that raiding is the ONLY way to provide a reward AND showcase skill. Why not hard quest lines that require as much "skill" then, that are equally as hard? It wouldn't cheapen the game if the best means of gear is still raiding, it'll merely add onto it because it would not be in a hardcore player's best interest to spend more time doing a long and hard quest line for 1 or 2 pieces of gear when they can get the same, if not better (even if slightly better) with less time i.e. 7-8 hours in the highest tiered raid.
Why shouldn't a casual gamer be rewarded for picking apart a long arduous quest (that was equally as hard as the hardest instance) over the course of a month with a piece that is equal or slightly less than the higher tiered pieces? A casual gamer doesn't necessarily have the option to run a raid, but its make the game fairly stale when that is their only options after they are done with the same "5-man content" for the last year aside from 30-60 minutes of a little more fun through 5 man ToC. My qualm with WoW right now is two fold, where are the new challenges (content) for the casual gamers (challenges that don't take longer than 1 1/2 hours-2 hours at a time outside of just 1 instance) and why aren't they challenging at all?
It seems all the casual gamer content is compromised by being much easier. In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on raiding for PvE in WoW when there are should be more diversity in what is supposed to be the "best MMORPG", but there isn't.
I'm not sure how much content you saw in terms of one day a week raiding. If you didn't get past Kara (TBC) or Naxx (Wotlk) then that's not really enough to understand the skill required for raiding.
However, if you want harder group (5-man) activity, then we are in agreement. The 5-mans are far too easy. And if (only if) 5-mans can be made as difficult as raids, then I've got no problem with them offering equivalent rewards.
It's just many people on this thread seem to think that difficulty can be reached purely through solo content. But that's just not practical for reasons I've already explained.
Comments
I'm reminded of Barney Frank.
Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy.
I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't like any part of it at all.As a matter of fact ,i doubt ANYONE actually likes it,the ONLY reason players do it,is for drops or to finish a quest,there is nothing special about it other than those two reasons.If you took away the drops and the quest,would players take part in Raiding just for the sake of it?or the fun of it?
Let's say developers all of a sudden made the design ,so you had to 1 on 1 battle a boss for the best drops in the game.Would anyone care about raiding anymore?answer is a big fat NO.
Lets say the developer made crafting produce the best drops,and NO you don't need to raid to get the drops for crafting,simple rare harvests would allow it.I bet you would see all those Raiding players out harvesting 24/7 looking for those rares.Or they would cry about it and say crafting sucks.SO would the players then Raid for green drops instead of those purples?again nope.
You know why?because there is nothing l33t or able to show off your ego in crafting.Raiding is a stigma that players think,"look at me i'm leet".So they get to attach a stereotype that makes them l33t and they get the best drops,so they think raiding is it..pfft it's nothing to me.
The other part that shows th flaw of the design,is the fact that so many want the uber drops,so they have to put Raiding into instances to overcome the traffic.I know EQ2 managed a Raid scenario out in the open against a few dragons through the guild options,but for the most part Raiding is 99% instances.Instances are a VERY cheap way to implement anything into a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
We are talking about high end raiding here, not Naxx.
You won't find PuGs downing Algalon for awhile yet.
Also what i am arguing is that if I turn up and put in more time and effort then you, shouldn't I be entitled to be a higher level? The opposite argument is, no I have played the same number of hours, therefore I am entiteld to be the same level, regardless of what I did during that playtime.
The fact that I was logged in while sleeping, shouldn't stop me being the same level as you.
Which is stupid when talking about MMORPGs yet here we are 10 pages later, and I am still trying to explaining it.
And if I log in and put in more time and effort then is required of a raider while playing solo and/or doing 5mans then I should be entitled to better rewards than raiding, correct?
Also why is beating Algalon giving out better rewards than beating Naxx if the time and scheduling requirements are rpetty much the same?
Because the argument is that on an individual basis Person X displays no more skill in interupting Boss B then Person Y does interupting the Boss W of a 5-man instance.
Therefore the skill levels are the same and the rewards should be the same too.
Which is stupid, but what is your subjective argument against that? Oh noes it doesn't? Its an arbitrary measurement and anyone is entitled to argue what they like about that skill level.
You just proved your own argument invalid. If a boss requires (to use Axehilt's idea) 20 skill from five players in a five-man dungeon, and a different boss takes 20 skill from 25 players in a 25-man dungeon, both bosses should yield comparable rewards.
You are trying to say that because it is more difficult to get 25 people in the same room and on the same page, you should get better rewards. That doesn't make sense, as it has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Say I am in a guild that can and does run 25 mans on a whim. It doesn't take me more time or effort to kill that 25 -man 20 skill boss as it would for me to get into a five-man group and kill that five-man 20 skill boss.
I am starting think you are one of three things:
1) A very bad troll.
2) Incredibly, incredibly stupid.
3) Desperate to maintain your pixel epeen by asserting (falsely) that 25 man content is more difficult and harder to handle than five-man content. (This is of course assuming all 25 people or all five people have the same skill levels.)
I am really not sure which is true. Can you tell us?
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I'm reminded of Barney Frank.
Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy.
I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
I remember watching that on C-Span. That was incredible.
Dafong, on what planet do you spend most of your time?
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
for me it was simply getting together with a group of friends/guildies and taking on a BBEG in a dungeon (which gets more love than the standard level to cap dungeons). The variety of the raids (even in WoW) also attracts me. I suppose it's something to do with my love for instances.
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Some interesting opinions in this thread indeed.
I was a big raider back in my EQ days and carried that through alot of games. I raided to "see" the content though .. not for the loot. A vast majority of my raiding friends did have the "better then thou" attitude though and its one I dont really understand.
Raiding is no harded than grouping or soloing from a play-skill perspective. Infact raiding allows less skilled players to "coast" along alot of the time. Sure cutting edge raiding means being on your top game but thats a very small minority of actual raiders, most people who claim to be raiders are the same ones who quickly run to the forums for walk-throughs and strat guides because they lack the ability to review combat logs and adapt themselves. Until you've spent hours reading over combat logs and breaking down new boss fights your not a raider .. your a carebear with a walkthough who just thinks they are a shit-hot raider.
As for the time Vs effort shit being touted in this thread. GET REAL.
Even hardcore raiders spend alot more time outside the raid environment working towards goals than in it. If it was just a time = reward thing raider would get nothing special. Someone can spend hours each day progressing thier character and get a few faction patterns for crafting .. a raider can raid a few nights a week and get phat loots? The time = reward argument is stupid so you need to drop it right away.
WoW has lost most of that difficulty in its efforts to become more casual.
People get hung up on the Time = reward or the effort = reward arguments. That has never really been the argument for better gear. The better gear equation has always been Time + Effort = reward. (Effort meaning difficulty) Lets face it .. there is no "difficulty" in WoW anymore. Its a system of gear checks. The bosses in the new raids are no harder than the older ones (hell most are easier technically) they just require you to have X gear set. Thats not difficulty thats TIME.
So now Blizzard is rewarding casuals that put in the time with better gear. Honestly thats all raiders do .. put in time. Why are you crying? As long as its taking a balanced amount of TIME I really dont see an issue with it. (If it take a raid of 25 people 5hours to get 8 pieces of gear thats 15.5 Man hours per item (I rounded
) so if a solo player is putting in 15.5 Man hours whats your QQ point? Its "harder" for you to get 25 people online at the same time? Gimme a break .. get friends with wristwatches and you'll be fine.
You should raid because you like to raid. I only raided because i enjoyed it .. if I did'ent I would'ent raid. Would I be pissed if someone get phat loot from soloing instead of raiding? Not if he'd put in the same man-hours as my raid ... now if hes getting that loot strolling around with his thumb up his arse? Yer I'd have issue ... thats simply not that case though so man up and deal with it.
Bottom line if your all upset because casuals are getting loot for NOT raiding ... thats telling me one thing, Raiding for you is WORK .. something that you really dont want to do and only do for the shiney at the end. Take my advice .. join the casuals and get your phat loots that way. You'll be less buttsore and we wont have to listen to you bitch. Raid because you enjoy it .. its a freaking game after all ... not because you think that doing this "tedious chore" will make you magically "better" than everyone else.
I'm reminded of Barney Frank.
Ilvaldyr has no interest in "arguing with a dining room table," so he dismissed your terrible analogy.
I'm a bit kinder (or perhaps foolish,) as I genuinely want people to understand games better. So in post #77 I explained why your analogy was terrible. I don't believe I noticed a response?
I see Barney Frank is the new Captain Picard of those on the internet who think they have debated a point well.
Your response was to talk about the difficulty of a park keepers job. A park keeper. Difficult.
His payment has nothing to do with the fact that he has to be there at a set time, and you don't, it has nothing to do with the fact that he has to stay there all day, and you don't. No, it is all based around some sort of difficulty level in being a park keeper.
I didn't respond, because I thought you were making a joke.
Yes I have agreed as much already in this thread.
If solo or group content required you to log in 3 nights a week for 5 hours and you couldn't log without failing the objectives, then you should be entitled to the same loot.
"Also why is beating Algalon giving out better rewards than beating Naxx if the time and scheduling requirements are rpetty much the same?"
The thing about killing Algalon, or other 'end bosses' is not that it takes more skill, it simply requires that you have cleared Naxx, and you have cleared Ulduar. So you have already put in more effort then those who only beat Naxx. The time requirements are not the same. While the time logged in is, it is like saying, why don't i get 10,000 gold and 2m XP when I hand in 10 fox pelts at level 1, but he gets that reward when he hands in 10 dragon pelts at level 80.
Are we to claim that killing those dragons at level 80 was any harder then the foxes at level 1? Of course they weren't, it is simply that it took him ages to get to level 80 and thus the rewards are better.
As others have pointed out, you're an idiot or a troll.
My quote from #77: "The park keeper is paid based on the difficulty of his job."
His job isn't very difficult; he's also not paid much. But he's paid more than the person who did absolutely nothing.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The original topic here was "What Do You Like About Raiding / End-Game?". One poster posted off-topic and started an argument. That argument has now spanned nearly 11 pages (not counting the first page which was still mostly on topic). There's a word for people who do that. Anyway, if it's a topic that interests you, feel free to post a thread with that as the subject. This thread however, has a different subject ENTIRELY. If the off-topic debate continues, I'm going to have to look into getting the thread locked. At this point, it's just a massive pile of troll food. Those who have remained on topic, thank you. Your opinions are interesting and valuable. The debate at hand could make for an interesting thread. Sadly, this is not that thread, and sifting through the troll food to find relevant replies is not at all interesting.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
I am an idiot, you have just made my point and called me an idiot while you made it? How stupid are you?
Yes the other person did nothing, but they were still in the park. How come they got nothing, if not based on difficulty, as I said, was it because he had to be there and they did not?
Yes it is.
And what has been my argument through this entire debacle?
That people who raid are required to be somewhere by hte game designers and people who do group content can do it when they like with no requirement to do it at anytime, and until that requirement is in place, group/solo content should not offer the same rewards.
So you have completely agreed with my point, and called me an idiot while you did it. Well done.
This is one of the few rare opportunities where I respond without reading the whole thread first and only because I been reading a lot all day. Was practicing programming C and reading about Lua and a novel on top of it all.
Anyways, before I digress too much, I would say I like absolutely NOTHING about raiding and end game and its starting to turn some popular games very 1-dimensional. I would much prefer other ways introduced in playing a game that might offer rewards on par to the "current end-game".
And whats with this concept of "end-game", whats the point of leveling then if most of the game is when I get to the maximum level? If there is so much emphasis on the end-game, why not just eliminate the leveling prerequisite and let the players have fun and get their MONEYS worth (oh I guess thats the key thing isn't it, *sigh* companies).
I think its absurd and games should take a step back and take lessons from the earlier MMORPGs. Make achieving maximum level actually something to brag about rather than a prerequisite for access to the other "half" of the game. I used to pride myself on DAoC for being mid level 40s (think max level was 50 at the time) and I never achieved maximum level in that game, but that never stopped me from feeling good being at that level, like I am amongst the upper echelon in the world (it was a game where death penalty involved a hefty exp loss). Make death penalties actually make people NOT want to die rather then not care, it seems like all I can get mad about in regards to dying is a 1 minute run to my "corpse". I would't mind if I saw some gold missing from my corpse or a random item in my inventory or something. Make the game exciting, you developers
NOTHING!!!! Running the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over.............
I am an idiot, you have just made my point and called me an idiot while you made it? How stupid are you?
Yes the other person did nothing, but they were still in the park. How come they got nothing, if not based on difficulty, as I said, was it because he had to be there and they did not?
Yes it is.
And what has been my argument through this entire debacle?
That people who raid are required to be somewhere by hte game designers and people who do group content can do it when they like with no requirement to do it at anytime, and until that requirement is in place, group/solo content should not offer the same rewards.
So you have completely agreed with my point, and called me an idiot while you did it. Well done.
Basically what I get from your post is this: "Because I managed to get 25 ppl online I deserve better loot"... No where in that sentence the skill of a player its involved. So youre actually being rewarded something better for the simple fact of knowning more ppl or being in a bigger guild.
When a game content difficulty lies over the ammount of ppl you can get, well, I dont think that speak well of the game.
The difficulty has to be inherent to the Dungeon and not to how hard is to get ppl at the same time, at the same day.
Youre right. Getting 25 ppl online at the same time, at the same day might be harder, but that does not make the Dungeon harder. If THE GAME CONTENT is not harded why should you get better rewards?
Rewards are based on the difficulty of the game content, not on how many ppl you know or on how big your guild is.
You are right, and I apologize for helping to feed the troll.
As per your topic, I don't really like "end games" or games that use that idea. Take the example someone else had of EVE. Eve doesn't really have an endgame. Yes, you will increase in power and versatility as you continue (you don't increase in a way that feels organic to me, but that's a different story) to play, as well you should, but there is no point where you can say, "I beat the game." That's because there is no "end game" idea and no "end game" content. CCP created a massive and engaging world, and they attracted players that manage to run the world themselves. It is an ongoing set of relationships/conflicts that continues but doesn't end. Most sandbox/pvp games can give you this, but some cannot.
Take GW. One of my favorite games, to play. It is not a game that feels like a world to me, and doesn't really have a serious community to speak of until you get into, yes, "end game" pvp. Of course, you can start a max-level person and only pvp with them, in fact this is encouraged. But there are four campaigns now, and when you beat them, you've beaten the game as it is, and are only left with very controlled pvp. So even though there is a community based around the pvp, and in and out of game relationships forged as a result (which is usually good for a game), it is still the "end game" so I feel that I'm done.
EDIT:
I want to add something about EVE that makes it amazing. Your equipment will wear out over time, and you will have to get new equipment, whereas in most MMOs you can simply repair it ad infinitum. Add to that the fact that equipment is player crafted (i.e. you cannot raid pve constantly and expect to outfit yourself with the ships and lasers or whatever that you need. At least, I don't think this is the case now.) and you have, amazingly, a real and active player-run economy within this harsh pvp reality.
Players control everything that happens in the world. And that one idea is what we need in our games. The devs just need to give us those worlds.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
Raiding as end game is the most moronic ideal ever tossed into an mmo. Outside of large scale pvp raids its serves no function other than to let people flex their epeen. Raiding does not equal skill it just equals less of a real life to dedicate to the 4+ nighs of 5+ hours raiding. I would rather see endgames be long involved storyline quests or even small group content. The worst part about raiding is the people who do it hardcore i have seen their ilk destroy many guilds. My favorite raider quote to me was that I should lock my kids in their room and get my priorities straight. That is raider mentality and that is why I place them one step above pedophiles in categories of people I can not tolerate. Old raiders I can tolerate because it seems to me the whole community had more class back in EQ and DAoC but this new group of players is sorely lacking in any socially redeeming qualities.
The amount of bullshit and ignorance in this thread is amazing.
A bunch of people who raided Everquest and vanilla wow thinking they know about current high end wow raiding and throwing around the name "Algalon" like it makes it seem they know what they are talking about.
Anyone who thinks WoW raiding takes absolutely no skill has never fought bosses such as Mimiron and Yog Saron on normal mode - yet alone hard modes. Those bosses are not remotely gear checks. They are all about skill. Having 10 or 25 people move in co-ordination with each-other. All in the right places and doing the right things at the same time.
WowProgress.com tracks raid progress. Lets look at it's 25 man statistics. It reports that 20% or the guilds it is tracking have completed the first part of Ulduar (the siege area). However, only 6% have killed the end boss Yog Saron, and only 0.58% have completed Firefighter (Mimiron hard mode).
It's been my experience that any guild that has the gear to clear the first four bosses (the siege) has the gear to clear Ulduar. There are no real gear check bosses. So the difference between that 20% and the 6% that have killed Yog Saron is entirely in skill. Nothing else. This contrasts heavily with vanilla wow raiding, which had lots of gear check bosses - such as Ragnaros, who you couldn't even think about defeating until you had loads of fire res gear.
And then we come to hard modes. Some of the hard modes do have gear checks. They include DPS races (amongst other things). But pretty much all the gear you need for hard modes is available in normal modes. So all that 6% who killed Yog Saron has to do is farm Ulduar for a month or two, and they should have plenty of gear to do hard modes. So why have only 0.58% of them done Firefighter? Surely most guilds that can clear Ulduar are capable of farming the place for a month or two and getting gear? So whilst most of them almost certainly passed the gear check, 90% of those guilds who cleared Ulduar failed to get Firefighter. Why? Lack of skill...
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
As for the claim that solo content can be made as hard as raiding - that's complete crap. Maybe 5 man content can. There's a good chance 10-man can. But solo - no way.
There's a simple reason why. The classes are not balanced around solo play. Not remotely. So something that, for example, a priest finds extremely challenging might be a walk in the park for a strong soloing class such as a feral druid. Some classes can solo incredibly well. For example, I read recently about a blood spec'd death knight who had soloed Loken from the Halls of Lightning heroic - one of the hardest 5-man bosses in Warcraft. There is simply no way players of most classes could even imagine doing that. Any non-tank class would probably be pulverised in seconds.
So, without completely redesigning the game and it's classes, how can you possibly construct solo challenges that are considered difficult for all classes? There are only two avenues open. One - use big grinds. Or secondly, you can make the challenge rely on non-class abilities. For example, a challenge that relied almost entirely on movement, maybe something like playing pocket simon with your character, without using most of your class abiltiies and skills. But I doubt that would be very popular with players - since most people enjoy playing their character with all the skills it has earned as it has levelled up.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).
Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).
The Reason I quit WoW was mostly because of noobs ruining my raiding experience. Even with T7(10 man) in WoW, I was dealing nearly 4k dps in Naxx consistently. This is on a huntard, after nerfs, of course. Before I quit, I had 4pc T8(25 man) and barely got to use it, lol. Anyway, Ulduar isn't so Hunter friendly but I'd get over 5k mostly. There were countless numbers of people in my guild with good gear. Even just T7 25 man in ulduar, you should at least be doing 4k on any dps class but they were doing 3.5k or lower. It boils down to skill. In fact, most other classes I know /faceroll their keyboard to pull 4k dps if you have the rotation down and T7.5.
What I love about End Game is RAIDING! I log on only for raids. That's it. I set myself up so I sell Jewels on the AH to pay for repairs and that's it. I love to be the first, or fighting to be first, on the server to do something as a guild. Damn my friends, I quit WoW before and then they started playing. Alliance... Of course... If they told me that they were playing again I would have made them go Horde. maybe I'd still be playing.
I don't entirely attribute it to lack of skill plus what is skill is very subjective to begin with. I think what is taken for skill is merely the experience and knowledge, the time spent failing and succeeding while raiding with your guild which requires a substantial amount of time left generally only for the hardcore and the casual gamers that can fit 1 run in their weekend schedules. What I don't like about raiding is the fact that it is the only option beyond heroic 5-man's to develop my character (did I mention that I have to run those same 5-man's again to go up to the next gear? What a fail patch.) Why can't there be other ways (especially ways for casual gamers) to develop my character? Why not gear on par with higher tiered gears through obnoxiously long quest lines and crazy amounts of dailies? (and make it so casual AND hardcore gamers would acquire this gear at a rate of like 1 or 2 per month, so raiding will still be the "best option" for farming gear, but that option is really only left for the hardcore and select few casual gamers with time on their weekends).
Another good point to figure out is that WoW uses an outdated model in terms of development which is rather tiring and old and that is the emphasis on gear beyond level 80. I'm glad some ways for the new expansion (like the Path of the Titan and Mastery) and annoyed in others ways (like level cap increases and drastic changes to game mechanics to "dumb down" the game for the masses).
That would make it exactly the same as any skill in the real world. Skills take time and practice to develop. Tiger woods wasn't the best golf player in the world the first time he picked up a golf club. And different people learn skills at different rates. Some never learn them. And TBH, it sounds to me like you simply don't understand because you've had very little experience of raiding. You haven't held fealt the incredible frustration of wiping 10 times in a row on a boss that you fealt was easy because many other people in your raid were still stuggling to move correctly, simply because half your raid lacked skill. And the most important skill in wow raiding is the ability to learn quickly - without it, you will be wiping on the early bosses again and again. With it, and even casual guilds can conquer Ulduar.
As for your complaints about heroics, to a large extent I agree with you. Wrath of the Lich King heroics failed badly. They are simply too easy. Most normal mode level 80 dungeons can be easily completed by a group of 78 players, and many players progress to heroics within a week of hitting 80. They are far too easy for any experienced player. It's stupid that they now offer some of the best rewards in the game - but that's Blizzard's attempt to cater to whiners.
As for putting crazy long grinds to get the best gear. Why? Soloers already have ways to get a fair number of decent upgrades (e.g. through the Argent Tournament). At the moment the best gear in the game is available through skill - making equal gear available through grinding would, in my opinion, cheapen the game. And what would happen - well for the truely hardcore, the progression would be obvious - they would do the grinds, and the raids, and get both sets of gear. Because that's how truely hardcore people play. So they'd still have much better gear than you. The difference is that they'd now also have better gear than the skillful non-hardcore players.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Agree completely - any DPS who can't pull at least 3.5k DPS in Ulduar 25 shouldn't be there. They either lack skill or gear. And the gear is pretty easy to get in Naxx, so most failures are due to lack of skill.
Personally, I was always amazed at the number of idiots who couldn't even avoid Flash Freeze on Hodir. That boss is so easy....
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I guess the difference between skill and "experience and knowledge" is that, I (along with 9 or 24 other people) can watch a video and greatly improve our chances on defeating a boss. That didn't mean upon watching the video I acquired some amount of skill that I didn't possess in the past, but it has helped the chances of not wiping none-the-less without practice. In terms of skill, I compare it to like playing the piano and by this regard, everybody in the game has been practicing and honing "skill" while playing their character and fulfilling their appropriate roles. Not to say you don't need to acquire this form of skill, but you cannot discount the importance of knowing what you are doing and seeing it done successfully by someone else. Most raid encounters have more to do with a combination of group coordination, fulfilling your role well, and gear.
You're quite wrong in regards to my experience in raids, I have raided once a week before and know how it feels to fail and succeed alongside my guild. The PvE in terms of raiding in WoW have never fallen short, but at the same time has been WoW's only great emphasis.
When I think in terms of a long quest lines etc. (I was thinking in terms of grind, it should be an enriched experience hence where RPG originated from), I was actually thinking more along the lines of more 1-2 hour long group type activities more so than just solo dailies/quests. More diversity would enrich the experience of the game as a whole to hardcore and casual alike. I agree that skill should be rewarded but I disagree that raiding is the ONLY way to provide a reward AND showcase skill. Why not hard quest lines that require as much "skill" then, that are equally as hard? It wouldn't cheapen the game if the best means of gear is still raiding, it'll merely add onto it because it would not be in a hardcore player's best interest to spend more time doing a long and hard quest line for 1 or 2 pieces of gear when they can get the same, if not better (even if slightly better) with less time i.e. 7-8 hours in the highest tiered raid.
Why shouldn't a casual gamer be rewarded for picking apart a long arduous quest (that was equally as hard as the hardest instance) over the course of a month with a piece that is equal or slightly less than the higher tiered pieces? A casual gamer doesn't necessarily have the option to run a raid, but its make the game fairly stale when that is their only options after they are done with the same "5-man content" for the last year aside from 30-60 minutes of a little more fun through 5 man ToC. My qualm with WoW right now is two fold, where are the new challenges (content) for the casual gamers (challenges that don't take longer than 1 1/2 hours-2 hours at a time outside of just 1 instance) and why aren't they challenging at all?
It seems all the casual gamer content is compromised by being much easier. In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on raiding for PvE in WoW when there are should be more diversity in what is supposed to be the "best MMORPG", but there isn't.
I'm not sure how much content you saw in terms of one day a week raiding. If you didn't get past Kara (TBC) or Naxx (Wotlk) then that's not really enough to understand the skill required for raiding.
However, if you want harder group (5-man) activity, then we are in agreement. The 5-mans are far too easy. And if (only if) 5-mans can be made as difficult as raids, then I've got no problem with them offering equivalent rewards.
It's just many people on this thread seem to think that difficulty can be reached purely through solo content. But that's just not practical for reasons I've already explained.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium