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The sub MMOs are "fighting" back
Frobner
Member Posts: 649
Alot of ppl are talking about F2P games taking over the MMO genre. Alot of ppl dont like those kinda games and would rather pay for the gaming box + subscription to play a game. That was the old days it seems. Cause quite frankly - the sub based MMO games have gone up another lvl. The longer you are subbed the more stuff you get.... Honest.... just pay and you get more...
"Veteran" reward system is the big new word in Sub based MMOs. AOC is adding it (sooner rather than later cause they can't wait much longer), WAR is doing it - And now even WOW is doing it with their Path of the Titans system set for the next expansion.
THe thing is... I thought subscription was to pay for the maintainance of the servers... and the box was for the content... Oh well....
For me ... this does actually do exactly the oposite to what the Devs think it will do.... Will I pay subs for next 24 months to actually be able to play the game (like AOC is doing now) ? No.... I will rather pay that 350 dollars into item shop game or play for FREE instead of taking part in this kinda "buisness".
So... whats worse... forcing ppl to pay subs for long long long time to gain something ingame (items - mounts) - or have an itemshop that you actually know what you are paying for?
I would love to hear from you guys about this. Do you like this new "veteran rewards" ? Or path of the Titans like WOW calls it.
Comments
Im going to add few "examples" of these new systems into this topic (no extra fee)
Lets start with AOC veteran system
Veterans System: I know I have hinted at this before, but not I can confirm that yes, there is something coming for veteran players, and the current plan is that we are trying to release it with the current 1.05.x series rather than wait for 1.06. This will be a new system that will allow veteran players to earn a new currency based on how many months they have subscribed for that can then be spent on a special vendor who will offer a wide range of items, both convenience items (like additional travel options or cheaper mounts for your alts), fun items and cosmetic items. The points will be on a character basis, so you will be able to spend your veteran points on each character. (i.e. if you are eligible for one hundred points as an example, all of your characters will get that number of points each)
forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php
*shrug* They say thanks for staying with us by letting someone have access to some cosmetic items. Sorry, I just don't see an issue here.
The issue is that a lot of people seem to put a lot of importance on items that have no effect on gameplay.
They just want to "collect" everything they can in the game.
I don't think there's anything malicious going on behind the scenes. Developers just want to give something to show their appreciation to long time subscribers.
Seems like a lot of complaining over nothing to me. So what you can't collect all of the special items in a game. Big deal, I'm pretty sure there's more important things to be worrying about in your life.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I definately prefer to pay a monthly fee and get veteran rewards according to the time i stay in the game.
F2p games with Item Shops are total crap when it comes to community, dont know why, maybe because anyone can play it for free. Most of the times its so bad that it makes the game completely unplayable.
I, like so many other players, run away from free2play cash item shop games.
It seems to me that what many Devs and Publishers are doing is just dumping a billing model into their game(s) without considering if it is appropriate.
I used to be anti-"F2P" and Mirco Transactions as well - but then KingsIsle (Wizard 101 Devs) demonstrated how it could be done so that no one was disadvantaged and that players (customers) could choose a model that suited THEM.
The system they use benefits the customer because the customer can choose a payment method that matches their play style and so they don't have to pay for 'time' they aren't using (subscription fee) if they have a more casual play schedule.
BUT, the critical thing here is that that model is well suited to Wizard 101's current content AND Wizard 101's target market AND Wizard 101's current customer base.
KingsIsle have also been very careful (there was a little trial and error there too) to make sure that MT players gained no advantage (long term) over subscription based players.
Basically, their system is not based on greed (Developer greed I mean), which IMHO has been a large part of the problem with these systems in the past.
But, not all games would suit that model.
Factors which developers should consider are;
Content
Target Market
Actual Market
Longevity of play
Replayability
Balance
Type of play (PvE? PvP? RvR?)
And what ever you do, you should make sure that no player is ever at a play disadvantage because of your billing model and/or Micro Transactions.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Seems obvious to me. What's worse? Having people pay to NOT play the game, which is an item shop.
Being rewarded for actually playing the game, which is the "veteran reward" ? Sounds fine to me.
For example, for mounts its either pay a billion in game gold or pay $10 real cash.
Also, "Path of the Titans" in WoW Cataclysm is not a veteran reward system it is an alternative advancement system.
I know that - its the other way that the sub MMos are fighting back. I will be talking more about that later. This topic is just starting cause there is plenty to discuss.
Next example is yet again from AOC. Next expansion is bringing out a offline skill/ability system meaning that as long as you pay your sub you will be able to advance your character. This has been done in Eve-Online for years. But EvE is a sandbox game where piles of abilities do not matter that much. There is no raiding content balanced for player lvl and ablities - AOC will have one...
And that will bring us back to Path of the Titans.
Acording to Blizzard - Path of the Titans is a "gated" system that will be controlled by them to add new abilites to the game based on the time. Time beeing the big factor - since aparently you will not be able to "lvl" these new "abilites"(glyphs) but it will require certain amount of time to pass (1 glyph per month maybe even when there are 8 ingame). This is yet again another way devs of sub based MMOs are focusing on keeping ppl subbed - adding time payed (rather than time played) to be the determined factor in the progression of your character.
To me this sounds much worse than an Item shop game. Its not enough that these Sub based MMOs are already getting payed for the orginal release - and now for 1-2-3 expansions - but are also doing everything possible (Even more than the free to play game) to force ppl to stay subed - just so they can advance their character. And the sad thing is... alot of ppl will pay ...
Now - subscription is no longer payed to cover the cost of maintaining servers (like alot of ppl were lead to belive - cause Free to play games have pretty much showed that fee is not needed). It is directly used as a game mecanic to get ppl to stay subed - even if they are not playing the game more than 1-2 hours per month (to advance their character just to be competitive when they have more time to play later). To me - this is way over the line of what is acceptable. Way over...
Give me item shops every day over this shady buisness that subscription is turning into...
I'm not seeing how offering novelty items for long-term subscribers is a bad thing.
As long as it's only novelty items. That's the issue, though.
Even now, if you have a high level main (which you achieved by playing a long time), you have some substancial advantages in leveling alts. Someone playing their first lowbie character is going to be sub par compared to someone who has a maxed main on the same server. Money and crafted items can be transferred, making leveling and PvP much easier.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This isn't new, UO did this and I always thought it was cool. I wish every sub game had veteran items.
In UO they were different mounts, house items etc. All stuff that didn't effect combat, so if games keep with that tradition it works for me.
Vet rewards have been fairly common for a few years now. One MMO has even had them for almost a decade.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
P2P games don't need to fight back against F2P because the whole F2P genre is mostly garbage that doesn't even qualify as "game", on the other hand what they need to do is stop being released six months/ one year too early .
Veteran reward is quite the opposite of RMT because you basically get MORE value for your subscrition instead of less in the P2P games were they removed stuff and added it to cash shops
Yeah I would rather pay monthly and have everything available to me at all times, even if I don't use it. It saddened me at games like Mabinogi where so many features teased you but just weren't available until you put in a quarter.. and out of 20 choices, 18 of those choices were to those quarter-pushers. A few f2p games are nice and only super-items cost real money whlie 98% of content is available to freebies, but it's more the exception than the rule.
So they're opening an item mall that you can only shop at once a month?
edit: that defeats the point of being subscription based, where you're paying once to have the ability to get whatever you want through "game" mechanics, rather than "shop" mechanics.
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veteran rewards should be things like holiday event items. not preparing a paid beta test for an item shop beta-feeler test. You know that someone is going to complain that they can't get everything, and that the devs will then pass that off as a "massive" demand to pay more.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Quoted for truthiness.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Quoted for truthiness.
Item shops give players freedom to play like they want...
And the new systems in games like AOC and WOW ARE going to restrict players that are not subbed all year around. Offline skill system like AOC is adding means that you will not be able to raid or take part in PVP on LEVEL grounds with others.
WOW new Path of the titans is "gated" based on time meaning you will get abilites over long periods no matter how long it has been ingame. Its not like lvls that you can start playing 3 weeks after expansion and catch up. No... you will have to play (and PAY) over 2-4 months period to be able to progress (acording to the latest posts for GC).
As a very busy person RL with huge commitments both as father and working full time - I simply can no longer spend 50 hours ingame every week. These sub based MMOs are finding a way to get to players like me but tbh my choise is to go for the itemshops and pay (if I so choose) for the time that it would take me to become competable in terms of gear to play with my friends ingame. I simply do not have the freedom of sitting and playing whenever I want to and thats why I want to be able to pay for WHAT I want instead of paying for alot of things that I dont want. Thats the diffrence.
Next Im going to talk about this famous qoute.... "its only 15 bucks a month" - Lets take new interview from Blizzard
www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/blizzard-co-interview/
When you look at the value proposition, it continues to be, in my opinion, the best value for your money. Fifteen dollars a month for unlimited play — you could compare that to a movie. You’d go by yourself and not have any interaction with any of your friends. With a Coke and a movie that’s what you’re getting, for two hours. You get unlimited here, so, I think we’re fortunate to have a really good game, an incredible following of players, combined with that fact that it’s pretty cheap in the scheme of things.
15 dollars per month ... unlimited... Thats not true.. Not for a Blizzard product. Its true for EVE-ONLINE but not WOW or AOC or even WAR. Cause these games are selling a BOXED version of their game + EXPANSION on top of EXPANSION on top of yet ANOTHER expansion. Thats not 15 dollars per month...
Eve- online tho... has done alot of expansions for free and ppl pay only their subscription fee. But eve online has offline progression system that fits into their sandbox game. Now other sub based MMOs with raiding content are going to do the same....
The truth is.. that sub based MMOs - those that are talking about their 15 dollars for unlimited time.. are actually charging over 100 dollars for ppl just to start playing. At the same time ... you can log into a Free to play MMO and you can actually play for free FOREVER - UNLIMITED time - for nothing. INCLUDING EXPANSIONS like now in Runes of Magic.
Personally I think free to play MMOs with item shops are the future of MMO games. We are now seeing game after game beeing released that isn't half finished and still ppl are charged FULL for the box - and then the rest comes in based on the sub - NOT the amount of ppl that bought the box (AOC for instnace).
I suggest all should read this interview linked above. It maybe shows those ppl supporting the subscription as the only way (forgetting the box and expansions) that in the end its all about buisness. It has nothing to do with giving "unlimited play for 15 dollars". It never has... Those 15 dollars are just a way to make MORE money .. And thats what this is about...
Free to play - or Subscription ... is still only about one and the same thing... Buisness.
Subscription based games havre ways to keep ppl buy a boxed version + 5 expansions + paying subs. And IMHO I htink they are taking this into new levles now - like AOC are doing with their Offline skillsystem.
Now... as far as MMOs and going to the movie are conserned... thats not something you can compare. What you can compare is if you go and buy a DVD of a movie and you can watch it for UNLIMITED amount of time ... whenever you want.. and NO 15 dollars per month...
But hey - you would get really bored with that movie over time. Just like you would be with a sub based MMO.. THATS why you have to BUY the next expansion... just like you buy the sequel to the movie you liked so much....
Well, technically, you only have to pay for the vanilla box+sub to play WoW. You don't have to get the expansions. The original box cost spread over five years isn't very much per month. Less than $1 per month?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Technically I have to pay extra to get to lvl 80 since ppl with only vanilla will only be able to lvl to 60.
And if I wanted to play bloodelf... or a Allied shaman... I pay extra...
Are you playing the orginal game after 5 years ? Its good value - just like buying a movie on DVD. But the same movie for 5 years...
Nah... You know that Technically this is all about Buisness... 5 years of spreading the payments out just blurs the memory abit... And then it really hurts to see others acutally pay less money to enjoy a free to play game - and EVEN if they used item shops.
Technically I have to pay extra to get to lvl 80 since ppl with only vanilla will only be able to lvl to 60.
And if I wanted to play bloodelf... or a Allied shaman... I pay extra...
Those are options. You can play WoW with a LOT of content, including many instances, a few BGs (3?), 6 starting areas, and eight classes. There's a LOT more replay value there than a movie.
Are you playing the orginal game after 5 years ? Its good value - just like buying a movie on DVD. But the same movie for 5 years...
I'm not, but I could see others doing so. I have seen people asking for vanilla WoW servers, too. Other than the inscription profession (which is one of my favourtie additions since release), I don't think there's anything that I couldn't do just fine without which was added by either expansion.
I find Jewelcrafting, Death Knights, and Blonde Elves particularly blah.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Technically I have to pay extra to get to lvl 80 since ppl with only vanilla will only be able to lvl to 60.
And if I wanted to play bloodelf... or a Allied shaman... I pay extra...
Those are options. You can play WoW with a LOT of content, including many instances, a few BGs (3?), 6 starting areas, and eight classes. There's a LOT more replay value there than a movie.
Are you playing the orginal game after 5 years ? Its good value - just like buying a movie on DVD. But the same movie for 5 years...
Options are good. Thats why I like to see Free to play games offer item shops cause it gives more options. Expansions are also options... but you still pay for them full prize - even if you dont like blood elves
I think subs beat out Cash shops for several reasons.
1. Everyone is paying the same price. Can you tell me that even if you only play 10-15 hours a week that $15 a month is to much? (10x4=40hrs/month. $15/40hrs = $0.375 an hour.)
2.Most Cash shops I have seen have bullshit time based items that expire.
3.There has been NO Cash shop game that is on par with any AAA game.
4. Spamming is a lot more in free to play because you don't have to pay for an account.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
Problems with itemshop mmo still remains. They built their games around the itemshop so without it the players find it inconvienent. However, some goes so far as to making itemshop the key to survive in the game, and the price tag completely does not justify what the item do most times.
The idea of rewarding veteran is nice, but truthfully if a game is entertaining enough, there would be no need to go out of their way to reward players for subscriptions.
The thing is Sub based games are also build around that buisness model. You can still play Vanilla WOW but that game is ALSO lacking without the expansions - witch you pay extra for.
Veteran rewards are ok to many as long as its not stats driven rewards. I started this discussion on Veteran rewards but the fact is that sub based games are going the extra step now - like WOW ... beeing MORE gated - directly limiting player progression over time in new ways. Is it done for the good of the game - or based on the buisness model of 3 big content patches per expansion (that really should be part of the box price right ? ) and a dead time inbetween. Then ppl might skip subbing for 2 - 4 months cause of Real life comittments or hollidays. The buisnessmodel ... is loosing money ... and thats why AOC is adding Offline skillsystem - WOW is adding The path of the Titans and so on.
PPL are welcome to argue what they like more. But.. do NOT talk about subs as the only payment you put towards these kinda games. And also .. lets not go down the road of calling all Free to play games - crap games. Cause you could pick 50 sub based MMOs that are totally crap anyway... Including some very resent ones.