The key to all this is communication, communication and more communication. The more players are informed about why decisions are made the more tolerant they are to those decisions, even if thy affect their main characters negatively. And at the same time the more information the developers get from as broad an audience as possible, the more informed decisions can they make. It all comes down to how well information is exchanged between players and developers and it has to go both ways.
Wrong. The reasons why decisions are made changes nothing. Either you like them, or you don't. Dev's trying to explain things rarely makes you change your opinion about their decision. It's just fluff that is completely unnecessary.
Updates tell you enough about what the devs want to do with the game. If you don't like it you can always quit (and yes, all the hard work you did to build your character was for nothing- too bad). It is pathetic to keep playing although it is clear that you disagree with the devs and overall dislike the way they handle the game. Either get over it, or quit. That is the best way to affect things. When enough people quit, devs have to change their tactics too. You still playing tells the devs that they don't have to change things to what you wish for- why would they do that? You're still a paying customer. Only by not giving them any more money you can affect things.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
Of course there are bad developers that are unprofessional. Those kind of people just don't know what it is that we want. World is full of them, as it is full of the opposite. This.. Smedly guy clearly belongs to the group that doesn't get it.
Other side of the spectrum, we have developers such as Hideo Kojima. I doubt anyone wanted him to make a prequel to a popular serie such as Metal Gear- if they were asked, they'd have wanted a sequel instead. But Kojima went against their wishes and made a prequel after all, resulting in it being the best game of the series, and a favorite for most fans. This is one clear case of customers not knowing what they really wanted and Mr. Nippon showing them what we truly wanted to play.
If what customers want conflicts with what the dev wants them to have, he is a bad dev. Simple as that.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I loved the article, and totally agree. The notion of the customer being right has really no bearing here. It starts (the game) as an idea and it expands with the ideas and imagination of the devs. Yes, it is helped along by feedback and insight, but they cannot 'cater' to the individual.
You pay to play a game, and hopefully it's one that comes out polished and fun and one you can see yourself continue on playing. If it isn't, you leave it and try something new.
These 'hurt' ppl whining about this not being in it at launch or that class not being like that other game...really.
Ppl today expect too much imo, because how can something as trivial as a feature not making it in a launch be that traumatizing or a game you've been playing 'X' amount of time affect your life so when something in it changes that you don't agree on or like?! If it does, then maybe those ppl should re-evaluate what they are doing there and maybe make some changes in their lives, because games are NOT what life's about.
The devs have a job to do and whether or not they are in it solely for the money or not, it's our choices on whether or not we pay to play that will determine the game's outcome. Your only choice as a customer should be: Will I give them my money to play their product. Period. Only you can decide for yourself what you will do, and if you don't like the options out there, either stop altogether or decide to make an mmo of your own and see if you have it 'Right'
Sadly MMOS have helped in breading the completely seff absorbed customer that used to get laughed out of stores. This new piece of garbage makes working in just about any customer service job a pain in the ass. I sell building materials to large scale builders and that same type of customer is horrible to deal with. When you try to explain that product A does not come with the options of product B, the conversation should end right there but it never does. They complain for 40 minutes why its BS that they can't have exactly what they want. The problem with thinking your individual concerns matters is unless the devs are working towards the macro goals they are doing a disservice to the entire community. I understand that all the larger issues are also personal issues to certain players but its sad watching gamers cry on forums about things that are not broken, they just are childish crybabies that seem to not want to play the game the way it was created. Quiting a game because you don't like a certain mechanic is understanable but the vast majority of what I see any more is just pathetic. If the class you are playing is not doing enough damage to suit your tastes, the fault lies entirely on your shoulders for picking the wrong class. I mean, if the devs say its working as intended please shut up and play another toon. If its broken, that's a different matter entirely. Your ranged toon doesn't do as much damage as a tank? So what? Your caster dies too quickly? Stay out of the middle of battle.
That's where these problems come from. When you provide really good CS and actually do one good thing in resolving an issue, (or sometimes if one even hears that it happened at some time in the past), it tends to make people think you are there to satisfy their every whim.
Absolutely agreed Sanya. You can print it out, you're doing a great job here by letting people know about how MMO reality works.
You smash completely untrue stereotypes, and give us a down-to-earth, really human-like examples. Plus, you're really good at writing. It's interesting, it's thrilling, and it's "revolutional" in those dark times of MMO games - we all read what people think, and that's really unbelievable how so many people could be SO damn foolish.
Such a multi-million crowd of people who don't really know what they're talking about is simply destructive, or at least, is counter-productive if we want to see any progress in the MMO genre.
People are so easy to manipulate, that they have a hard time seeing what is quality, and what is PR and the power of "everybody's playing it, so it must be the best!". Which is BS.
It all changes now - I see more and more maturity in MMO communities. But still those are dark times, where lack of player's knowledge is used to promote shitty features or expansions. There's still to many mindless lemmings or sheep who vote with their cash, yest - but vote only because others voted that way too.
What you wrote in this article isn't anything new to me. But I often argued about it, until I realized I have 100% right way of thinking about it, and I'm right anyway, so why should I agrue about obvious facts. Not understanding it is not my problem, but a problem of those who don't see reality. That's sad, not understanding it and fighting for some made up pile of shit. But that's sad for them, not me.
Even as a thoroughly bratty, never-satisfied customer, the phrase 'the customer is always right,' has always infuriated me, and this whole column had me smiling. Thanks, Sanya.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
People who say "The customer is always right" are the kinds of people who don't know how to tell the customer to f*** off politely.
Seriously, you cant say "The customer is always right" in any situation you are actually dealing with more than 1 customer. That statement had to have been invented by a genius manager who needed to keep his gang of peons to turn a profit rather than screw him over.
Developers are a group of creative folk with a vision for the game they think is great. Then that vision gets skewed by money. Plain and simple. You have investors, producers and marketing that change things before the players see it. The developers are not the guys in charge. Whoever supplies the money is in charge and that isn't the customer. The customer supplies the money suppliers with money.
Community managers are just gears in the machine trying to work with the players and companies to exchange information.
I read through all of the replies and it seems like a lot of people are taking the saying "The customer is always right." a little too literally.
The saying is not trying to imply that literally the customer is always right about everything.
What it does means is that if you want to retain a constant clientele you need to cater to the group of people your business applies to and make sure you are providing products/services that those customers want to pay for.
Any good business moves forward because they can predict what their clients want before they know they want it.
Snuggie, anyone?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
The customer is always right. Thats why the customer gets what they pay for. If you ask 1 million people a question. You will get 1 million answers. But there is an average of the same answers. People have somehow fallen into the hype machine and don't know how to get out of it. Foaming at the mouth of every MMO release just because it's something new and looks exciting! Not once attempting to look up information on who's making this crap who owns this company what people are on the dev team and who's funding this game? I didn't play all these games for the hell of it, I played them because I'm looking for something to immerse myself in for a little while. I havn't bought a MMO in over a year because none of these p2p's are even worth it and are an insult. The people that run the show at making games are absolutly fucking DRY. NO IDEAS, NO INNOVATION, NO HEART. They have lost something somewhere down the road and aren't even using the biggest source of ideas. Us.
No they are not always right, this one of the most destructive ideas ever to emerge from the brain farts at America's business schools. It has encouraged the idea that "If I pay I get to have full control over everything", that doesn't work if there are a million customers, there is a baseline of service that is offered. Too many of these customers are armchair designers who don't really have a clue on the complexity of the product that they use, but they think they do. The customer is often confused, ill-informed, destructive and selfish. You have to listen to the customer, but doing everything they want will often times lead to a situation that they are very unhappy, especially in relation to anything IT. A good provider tries hard to find out what is really important and lays it out for the customer so that they understand what they are getting.
"Customer is always right" is connected to the money they throw in your direction.
I enjoyed reading the article. Do keep in mind this is a relationship - I think someone alluded to that already - the gaming companies/developers and the customers. Without the customers, the gaming company would cease to exist. Without the gaming company, there would be no game for said customers to play. Just like when you are in a real life relationship (or online relationship if that is your cup of tea) there is a give and take, a listening of ideas, learning to agree to disagree and hope that right choices will be made, and compromises (mostly on the part of the customer - heh) are bound to happen. We see what these types of elements are destroyed or not practiced in these relationships - the relationship falls apart. Same deal with the Developers and their games' subscribers.
Of course I am not interested in Developers catering to every whim of a minority. I also am not interested in Developers going off the deep end when they have such an excellent start. Someone had mentioned how EQ started off as an outstanding game that slowly, but surely, turned into a raid-centric game that even then was a bit sketchy. Granted it is still being played and I personally have fond memories of it.
I guess the better example would be Vanguard. Instead of sticking to the vision (and having a better business sense in general) that game went to the pissing pot as soon as the beta was over. Lots of great ideas - poor implementation and the Developers being greedy, wanting the WoW community to come on over... Yeah that stuff needs to stop also.
It takes two to tango.. Rather, millions of subscribers and a few developers to tango, properly.
Most players are positive "developers" are a monolithic entity that marches in lockstep, a juggernaut of nerf that heeds not our cries. I lol'd. Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Can we get an amen?
I think the nature of the beast breeds a confrontational rather than a cooperative relationship between the two camps. It is human nature to want more of whatever you can get, and to get it as easily and quickly as you can. Trust me, if a game programmer could find a way to cut their work-time in half and still churn out the code they are required to do to keep their job, they would be all over it.
I have played City of Heroes for over four years. I personally think a lot of the damage is done to features in a game trying to stop power-leveling when really, I think it could be ignored. Who really gives a rat's patooie if my neighbor PL'ed twelve toons to 50 without ever seeing any of the content? His loss. The old excuse was that they'd get to 50 and be whining because there was no content. The ability to 'flashback' and Mission Architect pretty much ate the face off that excuse.
In eve customers are the developers too. And Developers are customers too. Some growing pains, but it wins. Does EVE count though in this discussion?
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
SanyaDirector of Community Undead LabsMemberUncommonPosts: 50
Veritas_X: Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Well, yes, but only after the game's been out for a week. *rim shot*
@Brostyn: FWIW, the person who conceived, designed, and pushed TOA into launch was put in charge of WAR.
@Ficus: EVE is kicking ass in multiple categories, but I truly feel that they're an outlier. Sad, though. I'd love to see more games start small, build according to an in-depth long term plan, and involve their players so closely in so much of the development.
Sanya M. Weathers Director of Community Undead Labs
This column brought up numerous reasons why it is sometimes better to have a small player base. When you have a large player base you have to build in a greater level of organization by folks like tech support and customer assistance. As for giving good feedback on service, I have made it my goal to let people know when they've done something right.
Regarding tech support, people have to keep to the facts, because without it you hit a wall. If a tech support person can't understand your issue because you're too busy ranting and raving, then you shouldn't expect help. Simple as that. As for customer assistance, well most people take shots at those guys. When you consider that most people only ever deal with tech support and customer assistance when there is a problem, then you have to realize that there are certain stress levels associated with these job. Do not fly off of the handle when you deal with them because these people usually deal in facts rather than emotion. This is not to say that the person on the other end is perfect, but you should try to stay focused on why you are approaching them for in the first place.
Forget sharks with freaking laser beams - try a disgruntled seagull with a death ray.
"not a fireproof shield for a cowardly developer to duck behind".
That was the icing on the cake for me coming from Sanya. As much time as she spent running off at the mouth about Mythic and then turning tail and doing exactly what she just stated should not be done..................................................
Sanya is one of the typical people who land a job in the game industry that are able and more than willing to speak out of all four or five faces they have. Two-faced? Not even close.
By saying their is no customer or developer says that what Mythic is currently doing is the fault of no one. The "customer" that according to her does not exist is not to blame for a game that has lost over a million subscribers in a a years time but on top of that there is no "developer" to blame either.
I heard Obama needs another clueless spinner of tall tails. Sanya you may need to apply there.
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
You have a view of what a popular colloguialism means and that is fine. In a sense, through the power of consumer choice the customer is always right.
But Sanya was speaking to a different side of the saying, as there are different ways to look at it. I really do not see how anything you said directly negates the things she was saying. It is not like Sanya said the laws of supply and demand do not exist, she was using a popular colloquialism that is often misunderstood and misused. She explained in a sense, why in business classes, in colleges today, it is necessary to teach how in some ways the uninformed often ignorant customer is not always right.
If you choose to look at it in a purely ideological and philosophical way, that is fine. It is a lame colloquialism and like most colloquialisms it is vague and overused, as the masses are fond of the familiar and lacking in vocabulary.
Anywho- what I wanted to say... Great article... I see Im not the only one in your fan club. And there I was feeling special a few articles back.
Wrong. The reasons why decisions are made changes nothing. Either you like them, or you don't. Dev's trying to explain things rarely makes you change your opinion about their decision. It's just fluff that is completely unnecessary.
O wow that is a complete lack of understand of basic human behavior we see here. Let me ask you: Have you ever been sitting in a train and been together with the other passengers irritated about it going too slow and then the traindriver tell you over the comm system why we are going so slow and everyone relaxes and sit back and accept it.
Or if you work with people with mental disorders like I do, understanding why things happens allows you to accept things that seems unfair and strange simply because from the point of view of the other side it makes sense and therefore there is no ill intent behind it.
Understanding why decisions are made make you a part of the decision on a emotional level and make you much much more accepting of changes done.
Cryptic just held a seminar in CO where they talked about how and why they had done what they did and now the general boards there are much more constructive and filled with identifying problems or people giving new ideas instead of just angry comments.
It works.
Its also one of the most basic tools you learn when you are educated in solving personal conflicts. Find a way to make each side understand the point of view of the other and the worst is already over in the conflict.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Eugh, I'm blown away by the tunnel vision nature of so many of the posts I have read. First let's look at some of the problems when dealing with such an issue, as I believe some earlier posters have stated, it is by far too much of a generalisation to name the entire player base as the "consumer" and assume that each of the individuals that make up this player base have the same views. In the end it’s all about personal preferences, and these personal preferences are almost certainly varied between each individual. While one person may like PVE and grouping up another may prefer solo play and PVP. To pretend a developer could possibly please each and every one of its costumers by catering to their desires is naïve.
For simplicities sake, let us assume that the customer represents the average player; or more, the averagepoint of view, whatever that may be. The issue that should be addressed now is that: players do not ultimately know exactly what works. Sure they know they want to have fun and enjoy what they are doing, but how many people out there have thought something was a totally stupid idea until they actually tried it, at which stage they loved it. Don't get me wrong, I think that some developers have got this totally wrong, for example SWG which just makes me angry to think about. While the customer might know roughly what they feel "works" and "doesn't work" I think it is downright arrogant to assume that they, as the customer, knows exactly what works in a game.
The entire issue of the player developer relationship is a far more complicated issue that many people assume. I’m not one to say that I know exactly how it should be done but knowing a fair bit about human nature, it is very much apparent that some of the posts are totally ludicrous and often babyish in nature.
NOW.... lets go down to the facts tho... WIll a person that has played a character that he progressed through 1 or 2 years stop paying when he meets something he dislikes ? Probably not. What needs to happen so that he stops playing and gives up on hours and months and even years of playing with friends and developoing his character? The fact is... something huge has to happen....
So addicted players have a hard time quitting? That's some news you got there, buddy.
It doesn't matter at which point you quit. All the work you've done will be lost regardless, at the latest when the servers will be shut down for good. What does it matter when you quit? If the person was not addicted, he'd quit once he got bored with the game or started disliking some new or old features. But no, not the addicted players. They tend to go to the forums and complain. They don't want to quit, because they'd 'lose all the hard work' and other nonsense.. but they're just addicted, nothing more. All the hard work doesn't matter in the end.
You know why this doesn't happen with single player games? Those players can move on once they're bored. If they don't like the game they won't play it. The MMORPG players play the game even though they don't like it... expecting that maybe in an update someday things would change for the better.. and complain at the forums.
Sad bunch that shouldn't be listened to, in my ever so honest opinion.
Welcome to the world of MMORP gaming. Create gameplay that ppl get addicted to - add a good blend of "friends" and ppl will go on for months even if they hate what the game has become. My bet is that over 50% of normal MMO custimors is exactly this.
Hope for this and that to become better - hope for some buffs or even total overhaul of the class - even for years....
These ppl are loud on pretty much every forums. It doesn't mean they are wrong tho. In fact - these are the ppl gaming developers are hoping to keep in - with their carrot on a stick method.
i worked in customer support for just over a year doing technical support for computer hardware mostly, i got quoted the "customer is always right " several times by customers over the phone, it was the attitude that i should be greatful to them for this mighty job (normally lowest paid in any company) that you should be worshipping the customer and giving in to their every demand.
Everyone who plays mmos are pationate people normally more so than the general customer, they live and breath mmo's and as such when somthing goes wrong or that they dont think is right they rise up and demand that what the company has done is wrong and should be reversed.
anyone who has played an mmo has encountered the nerf bat in one form or another and generally felt cheated, i normally play under powered classes with the knowledge that eventually that class might be fixed, it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them.
Then one day mythic fixed the class it was like christmas easter and newyear all at once there was much rejoicing at how they had managed to fix the class and make it more fun. However no less than 1 month later mythic nerfed the animist into the toilet with such a blow that made the class no longer fun. The outrage on the forums that we had waited 2 years for the fixs only to be denied and put into the toilet again.
it was one of those moments that you want to rage and spit but your denied so the only target of rage for most people is the customer support person. and that is unfortunatly the only target you got.
"not a fireproof shield for a cowardly developer to duck behind". That was the icing on the cake for me coming from Sanya. As much time as she spent running off at the mouth about Mythic and then turning tail and doing exactly what she just stated should not be done.................................................. Sanya is one of the typical people who land a job in the game industry that are able and more than willing to speak out of all four or five faces they have. Two-faced? Not even close. By saying their is no customer or developer says that what Mythic is currently doing is the fault of no one. The "customer" that according to her does not exist is not to blame for a game that has lost over a million subscribers in a a years time but on top of that there is no "developer" to blame either. I heard Obama needs another clueless spinner of tall tails. Sanya you may need to apply there.
Wow, simply amazing. Did you even read the article?
I like how you took the red quote above and posted it completely out of context and then made some statement about Sanya that doesn't even apply to the quote you posted. The partial quote you posted was referring to community staff being a 2 way street passing information between developers and the community.
What exactly is she stating should not be done.
Next you ramble on about the article saying there are no customers or developers. Which is, well, dumb. If you had actually read the article. Or, more specifically, understood the words you were reading. You would know that the article was saying that there is someone to blame when things go bad and that's usually the person that is in charge of the "big picture" at the game studio.
I won't get into a political debate with you here, but this last statement you made makes all of the rubbish you posted completely understandable. Do you work for Fox News?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
" it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them."
Now that made me laugh.
Since OF, Animist has always beeen an overpowered class and still is. By OP I mean you can lay down a patch, walk away from the computer and still get kills until your pets die off. Before they were fixed you could wipe an entire group in no time. And by horrible bugs you had to deal with, you mean laying down shrooms and having them kill people through walls and doors? Or maybe on top of keeps where only the tiniest bit of them could see the ground and still kill people? All the while you're hanging out in the inner keep safe from harm? Yea, I hated being able to have two friends with me and completely destroy an attacking force of dozens. Or defending a keep solo while a couple dozen people took an hour to get in. I loved my ani for one reason, it was the single most over powered class in any game I've ever played.
Comments
Wrong. The reasons why decisions are made changes nothing. Either you like them, or you don't. Dev's trying to explain things rarely makes you change your opinion about their decision. It's just fluff that is completely unnecessary.
Updates tell you enough about what the devs want to do with the game. If you don't like it you can always quit (and yes, all the hard work you did to build your character was for nothing- too bad). It is pathetic to keep playing although it is clear that you disagree with the devs and overall dislike the way they handle the game. Either get over it, or quit. That is the best way to affect things. When enough people quit, devs have to change their tactics too. You still playing tells the devs that they don't have to change things to what you wish for- why would they do that? You're still a paying customer. Only by not giving them any more money you can affect things.
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
Of course there are bad developers that are unprofessional. Those kind of people just don't know what it is that we want. World is full of them, as it is full of the opposite. This.. Smedly guy clearly belongs to the group that doesn't get it.
Other side of the spectrum, we have developers such as Hideo Kojima. I doubt anyone wanted him to make a prequel to a popular serie such as Metal Gear- if they were asked, they'd have wanted a sequel instead. But Kojima went against their wishes and made a prequel after all, resulting in it being the best game of the series, and a favorite for most fans. This is one clear case of customers not knowing what they really wanted and Mr. Nippon showing them what we truly wanted to play.
If what customers want conflicts with what the dev wants them to have, he is a bad dev. Simple as that.
They're both wrong, the GMs are right, but neither party listens to them. XD
I loved the article, and totally agree. The notion of the customer being right has really no bearing here. It starts (the game) as an idea and it expands with the ideas and imagination of the devs. Yes, it is helped along by feedback and insight, but they cannot 'cater' to the individual.
You pay to play a game, and hopefully it's one that comes out polished and fun and one you can see yourself continue on playing. If it isn't, you leave it and try something new.
These 'hurt' ppl whining about this not being in it at launch or that class not being like that other game...really.
Ppl today expect too much imo, because how can something as trivial as a feature not making it in a launch be that traumatizing or a game you've been playing 'X' amount of time affect your life so when something in it changes that you don't agree on or like?! If it does, then maybe those ppl should re-evaluate what they are doing there and maybe make some changes in their lives, because games are NOT what life's about.
The devs have a job to do and whether or not they are in it solely for the money or not, it's our choices on whether or not we pay to play that will determine the game's outcome. Your only choice as a customer should be: Will I give them my money to play their product. Period. Only you can decide for yourself what you will do, and if you don't like the options out there, either stop altogether or decide to make an mmo of your own and see if you have it 'Right'
Sadly MMOS have helped in breading the completely seff absorbed customer that used to get laughed out of stores. This new piece of garbage makes working in just about any customer service job a pain in the ass. I sell building materials to large scale builders and that same type of customer is horrible to deal with. When you try to explain that product A does not come with the options of product B, the conversation should end right there but it never does. They complain for 40 minutes why its BS that they can't have exactly what they want. The problem with thinking your individual concerns matters is unless the devs are working towards the macro goals they are doing a disservice to the entire community. I understand that all the larger issues are also personal issues to certain players but its sad watching gamers cry on forums about things that are not broken, they just are childish crybabies that seem to not want to play the game the way it was created. Quiting a game because you don't like a certain mechanic is understanable but the vast majority of what I see any more is just pathetic. If the class you are playing is not doing enough damage to suit your tastes, the fault lies entirely on your shoulders for picking the wrong class. I mean, if the devs say its working as intended please shut up and play another toon. If its broken, that's a different matter entirely. Your ranged toon doesn't do as much damage as a tank? So what? Your caster dies too quickly? Stay out of the middle of battle.
That's where these problems come from. When you provide really good CS and actually do one good thing in resolving an issue, (or sometimes if one even hears that it happened at some time in the past), it tends to make people think you are there to satisfy their every whim.
Absolutely agreed Sanya. You can print it out, you're doing a great job here by letting people know about how MMO reality works.
You smash completely untrue stereotypes, and give us a down-to-earth, really human-like examples. Plus, you're really good at writing. It's interesting, it's thrilling, and it's "revolutional" in those dark times of MMO games - we all read what people think, and that's really unbelievable how so many people could be SO damn foolish.
Such a multi-million crowd of people who don't really know what they're talking about is simply destructive, or at least, is counter-productive if we want to see any progress in the MMO genre.
People are so easy to manipulate, that they have a hard time seeing what is quality, and what is PR and the power of "everybody's playing it, so it must be the best!". Which is BS.
It all changes now - I see more and more maturity in MMO communities. But still those are dark times, where lack of player's knowledge is used to promote shitty features or expansions. There's still to many mindless lemmings or sheep who vote with their cash, yest - but vote only because others voted that way too.
What you wrote in this article isn't anything new to me. But I often argued about it, until I realized I have 100% right way of thinking about it, and I'm right anyway, so why should I agrue about obvious facts. Not understanding it is not my problem, but a problem of those who don't see reality. That's sad, not understanding it and fighting for some made up pile of shit. But that's sad for them, not me.
Keep up the good work!
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Even as a thoroughly bratty, never-satisfied customer, the phrase 'the customer is always right,' has always infuriated me, and this whole column had me smiling. Thanks, Sanya.
"We have to give the customers what they want!"
"What they want is a better product, for free."
People who say "The customer is always right" are the kinds of people who don't know how to tell the customer to f*** off politely.
Seriously, you cant say "The customer is always right" in any situation you are actually dealing with more than 1 customer. That statement had to have been invented by a genius manager who needed to keep his gang of peons to turn a profit rather than screw him over.
Developers are a group of creative folk with a vision for the game they think is great. Then that vision gets skewed by money. Plain and simple. You have investors, producers and marketing that change things before the players see it. The developers are not the guys in charge. Whoever supplies the money is in charge and that isn't the customer. The customer supplies the money suppliers with money.
Community managers are just gears in the machine trying to work with the players and companies to exchange information.
Great article as usual, Sanya.
I read through all of the replies and it seems like a lot of people are taking the saying "The customer is always right." a little too literally.
The saying is not trying to imply that literally the customer is always right about everything.
What it does means is that if you want to retain a constant clientele you need to cater to the group of people your business applies to and make sure you are providing products/services that those customers want to pay for.
Any good business moves forward because they can predict what their clients want before they know they want it.
Snuggie, anyone?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
No they are not always right, this one of the most destructive ideas ever to emerge from the brain farts at America's business schools. It has encouraged the idea that "If I pay I get to have full control over everything", that doesn't work if there are a million customers, there is a baseline of service that is offered. Too many of these customers are armchair designers who don't really have a clue on the complexity of the product that they use, but they think they do. The customer is often confused, ill-informed, destructive and selfish. You have to listen to the customer, but doing everything they want will often times lead to a situation that they are very unhappy, especially in relation to anything IT. A good provider tries hard to find out what is really important and lays it out for the customer so that they understand what they are getting.
"Customer is always right" is connected to the money they throw in your direction.
I enjoyed reading the article. Do keep in mind this is a relationship - I think someone alluded to that already - the gaming companies/developers and the customers. Without the customers, the gaming company would cease to exist. Without the gaming company, there would be no game for said customers to play. Just like when you are in a real life relationship (or online relationship if that is your cup of tea) there is a give and take, a listening of ideas, learning to agree to disagree and hope that right choices will be made, and compromises (mostly on the part of the customer - heh) are bound to happen. We see what these types of elements are destroyed or not practiced in these relationships - the relationship falls apart. Same deal with the Developers and their games' subscribers.
Of course I am not interested in Developers catering to every whim of a minority. I also am not interested in Developers going off the deep end when they have such an excellent start. Someone had mentioned how EQ started off as an outstanding game that slowly, but surely, turned into a raid-centric game that even then was a bit sketchy. Granted it is still being played and I personally have fond memories of it.
I guess the better example would be Vanguard. Instead of sticking to the vision (and having a better business sense in general) that game went to the pissing pot as soon as the beta was over. Lots of great ideas - poor implementation and the Developers being greedy, wanting the WoW community to come on over... Yeah that stuff needs to stop also.
It takes two to tango.. Rather, millions of subscribers and a few developers to tango, properly.
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Can we get an amen?
I think the nature of the beast breeds a confrontational rather than a cooperative relationship between the two camps. It is human nature to want more of whatever you can get, and to get it as easily and quickly as you can. Trust me, if a game programmer could find a way to cut their work-time in half and still churn out the code they are required to do to keep their job, they would be all over it.
I have played City of Heroes for over four years. I personally think a lot of the damage is done to features in a game trying to stop power-leveling when really, I think it could be ignored. Who really gives a rat's patooie if my neighbor PL'ed twelve toons to 50 without ever seeing any of the content? His loss. The old excuse was that they'd get to 50 and be whining because there was no content. The ability to 'flashback' and Mission Architect pretty much ate the face off that excuse.
the customer isnt always right in only one situation
if you dont have any customer
In eve customers are the developers too. And Developers are customers too. Some growing pains, but it wins. Does EVE count though in this discussion?
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Veritas_X: Conversely, I'll wager that most developers are positive that players are a seething mass of exploiters, bound and determined to escape the box they're being shoved into by the design.
Well, yes, but only after the game's been out for a week. *rim shot*
@Brostyn: FWIW, the person who conceived, designed, and pushed TOA into launch was put in charge of WAR.
@Ficus: EVE is kicking ass in multiple categories, but I truly feel that they're an outlier. Sad, though. I'd love to see more games start small, build according to an in-depth long term plan, and involve their players so closely in so much of the development.
Sanya M. Weathers
Director of Community
Undead Labs
This column brought up numerous reasons why it is sometimes better to have a small player base. When you have a large player base you have to build in a greater level of organization by folks like tech support and customer assistance. As for giving good feedback on service, I have made it my goal to let people know when they've done something right.
Regarding tech support, people have to keep to the facts, because without it you hit a wall. If a tech support person can't understand your issue because you're too busy ranting and raving, then you shouldn't expect help. Simple as that. As for customer assistance, well most people take shots at those guys. When you consider that most people only ever deal with tech support and customer assistance when there is a problem, then you have to realize that there are certain stress levels associated with these job. Do not fly off of the handle when you deal with them because these people usually deal in facts rather than emotion. This is not to say that the person on the other end is perfect, but you should try to stay focused on why you are approaching them for in the first place.
Forget sharks with freaking laser beams - try a disgruntled seagull with a death ray.
"not a fireproof shield for a cowardly developer to duck behind".
That was the icing on the cake for me coming from Sanya. As much time as she spent running off at the mouth about Mythic and then turning tail and doing exactly what she just stated should not be done..................................................
Sanya is one of the typical people who land a job in the game industry that are able and more than willing to speak out of all four or five faces they have. Two-faced? Not even close.
By saying their is no customer or developer says that what Mythic is currently doing is the fault of no one. The "customer" that according to her does not exist is not to blame for a game that has lost over a million subscribers in a a years time but on top of that there is no "developer" to blame either.
I heard Obama needs another clueless spinner of tall tails. Sanya you may need to apply there.
I didn't find much I could agree with in what she had to say on the subject. When we say the customer is always right, we generally do assume that companies have more than customer. We are discussing them as a collective, and they ARE always right.. otherwise they cease to be "the customer".
I have seen a few developers argue that the customer should just shut up and let the professional software developers decide what it is that we want. This is the attitude we got from Smedly regarding SWG and from some ass-hat named Sillius who was working on vanguard. It seems to have been the overriding philosophy when developing a little piece of software called Windows Vista. These guys decided they knew better than we did what it was that we wanted, and they ended up being proved wrong. We didn't want the NGE, we didn't want a punishing crafting system and we didn't want a pop-up every five seconds asking us if we are sure we meant to click that button.
Bottom line, you have to give your customers what they want, even if it conflicts with what you want them to have. Developers DO NOT have a better idea what we enjoy than we do. That is what is meant by the customer is always right. We understand that neither "the customer" or the "the developer" are actually singular. We also understand that specific customers and specific developers want to see different things... but all of that is really beside the point. I think with the exception of a few posters who speak very little English, we all understand that the phrase "the customer is always right" simple means you have to give your customers what they want.
You have a view of what a popular colloguialism means and that is fine. In a sense, through the power of consumer choice the customer is always right.
But Sanya was speaking to a different side of the saying, as there are different ways to look at it. I really do not see how anything you said directly negates the things she was saying. It is not like Sanya said the laws of supply and demand do not exist, she was using a popular colloquialism that is often misunderstood and misused. She explained in a sense, why in business classes, in colleges today, it is necessary to teach how in some ways the uninformed often ignorant customer is not always right.
If you choose to look at it in a purely ideological and philosophical way, that is fine. It is a lame colloquialism and like most colloquialisms it is vague and overused, as the masses are fond of the familiar and lacking in vocabulary.
Anywho- what I wanted to say... Great article... I see Im not the only one in your fan club. And there I was feeling special a few articles back.
WOOT
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O wow that is a complete lack of understand of basic human behavior we see here. Let me ask you: Have you ever been sitting in a train and been together with the other passengers irritated about it going too slow and then the traindriver tell you over the comm system why we are going so slow and everyone relaxes and sit back and accept it.
Or if you work with people with mental disorders like I do, understanding why things happens allows you to accept things that seems unfair and strange simply because from the point of view of the other side it makes sense and therefore there is no ill intent behind it.
Understanding why decisions are made make you a part of the decision on a emotional level and make you much much more accepting of changes done.
Cryptic just held a seminar in CO where they talked about how and why they had done what they did and now the general boards there are much more constructive and filled with identifying problems or people giving new ideas instead of just angry comments.
It works.
Its also one of the most basic tools you learn when you are educated in solving personal conflicts. Find a way to make each side understand the point of view of the other and the worst is already over in the conflict.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Eugh, I'm blown away by the tunnel vision nature of so many of the posts I have read. First let's look at some of the problems when dealing with such an issue, as I believe some earlier posters have stated, it is by far too much of a generalisation to name the entire player base as the "consumer" and assume that each of the individuals that make up this player base have the same views. In the end it’s all about personal preferences, and these personal preferences are almost certainly varied between each individual. While one person may like PVE and grouping up another may prefer solo play and PVP. To pretend a developer could possibly please each and every one of its costumers by catering to their desires is naïve.
For simplicities sake, let us assume that the customer represents the average player; or more, the averagepoint of view, whatever that may be. The issue that should be addressed now is that: players do not ultimately know exactly what works. Sure they know they want to have fun and enjoy what they are doing, but how many people out there have thought something was a totally stupid idea until they actually tried it, at which stage they loved it. Don't get me wrong, I think that some developers have got this totally wrong, for example SWG which just makes me angry to think about. While the customer might know roughly what they feel "works" and "doesn't work" I think it is downright arrogant to assume that they, as the customer, knows exactly what works in a game.
The entire issue of the player developer relationship is a far more complicated issue that many people assume. I’m not one to say that I know exactly how it should be done but knowing a fair bit about human nature, it is very much apparent that some of the posts are totally ludicrous and often babyish in nature.
So addicted players have a hard time quitting? That's some news you got there, buddy.
It doesn't matter at which point you quit. All the work you've done will be lost regardless, at the latest when the servers will be shut down for good. What does it matter when you quit? If the person was not addicted, he'd quit once he got bored with the game or started disliking some new or old features. But no, not the addicted players. They tend to go to the forums and complain. They don't want to quit, because they'd 'lose all the hard work' and other nonsense.. but they're just addicted, nothing more. All the hard work doesn't matter in the end.
You know why this doesn't happen with single player games? Those players can move on once they're bored. If they don't like the game they won't play it. The MMORPG players play the game even though they don't like it... expecting that maybe in an update someday things would change for the better.. and complain at the forums.
Sad bunch that shouldn't be listened to, in my ever so honest opinion.
Welcome to the world of MMORP gaming. Create gameplay that ppl get addicted to - add a good blend of "friends" and ppl will go on for months even if they hate what the game has become. My bet is that over 50% of normal MMO custimors is exactly this.
Hope for this and that to become better - hope for some buffs or even total overhaul of the class - even for years....
These ppl are loud on pretty much every forums. It doesn't mean they are wrong tho. In fact - these are the ppl gaming developers are hoping to keep in - with their carrot on a stick method.
i worked in customer support for just over a year doing technical support for computer hardware mostly, i got quoted the "customer is always right " several times by customers over the phone, it was the attitude that i should be greatful to them for this mighty job (normally lowest paid in any company) that you should be worshipping the customer and giving in to their every demand.
Everyone who plays mmos are pationate people normally more so than the general customer, they live and breath mmo's and as such when somthing goes wrong or that they dont think is right they rise up and demand that what the company has done is wrong and should be reversed.
anyone who has played an mmo has encountered the nerf bat in one form or another and generally felt cheated, i normally play under powered classes with the knowledge that eventually that class might be fixed, it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them.
Then one day mythic fixed the class it was like christmas easter and newyear all at once there was much rejoicing at how they had managed to fix the class and make it more fun. However no less than 1 month later mythic nerfed the animist into the toilet with such a blow that made the class no longer fun. The outrage on the forums that we had waited 2 years for the fixs only to be denied and put into the toilet again.
it was one of those moments that you want to rage and spit but your denied so the only target of rage for most people is the customer support person. and that is unfortunatly the only target you got.
Wow, simply amazing. Did you even read the article?
I like how you took the red quote above and posted it completely out of context and then made some statement about Sanya that doesn't even apply to the quote you posted. The partial quote you posted was referring to community staff being a 2 way street passing information between developers and the community.
What exactly is she stating should not be done.
Next you ramble on about the article saying there are no customers or developers. Which is, well, dumb. If you had actually read the article. Or, more specifically, understood the words you were reading. You would know that the article was saying that there is someone to blame when things go bad and that's usually the person that is in charge of the "big picture" at the game studio.
I won't get into a political debate with you here, but this last statement you made makes all of the rubbish you posted completely understandable. Do you work for Fox News?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
" it was in the dark times of dark age when i played my animist it had been plauged with problems for years since the release of SI. I did what i could passing on my knoweldge to new animists fighting the good fight on the forums explaining bugs i encountered and how to fix them."
Now that made me laugh.
Since OF, Animist has always beeen an overpowered class and still is. By OP I mean you can lay down a patch, walk away from the computer and still get kills until your pets die off. Before they were fixed you could wipe an entire group in no time. And by horrible bugs you had to deal with, you mean laying down shrooms and having them kill people through walls and doors? Or maybe on top of keeps where only the tiniest bit of them could see the ground and still kill people? All the while you're hanging out in the inner keep safe from harm? Yea, I hated being able to have two friends with me and completely destroy an attacking force of dozens. Or defending a keep solo while a couple dozen people took an hour to get in. I loved my ani for one reason, it was the single most over powered class in any game I've ever played.